surge free at last!!!

[smitty]

i just bought a new motorcycle for 249.00 + tax! how is that, you may ask? well, i installed a techlusion box on my 97 r11rs, and i swear it's like riding a new bike!! i had tried everthing that was suggested here including an obsessive-compulsive synching of the tb's and valve adjustment and went back to running the stock cat code plug, and by the way thanks to all the folks who offered feedback, i learned a great deal about the bike from this whole process, greatly appreciated. while i noticed a slight improvement in performance and reduced vibration, i couldn't shake the surging and hunting. so i figured i'd give the powerbox a try, and boy am i glad i did. i guess i had gotten so used to the problem that with it gone i'm just amazed at how well this bike performs. people must think i'm nuts because i've been riding around emitting hoots of joy and sqeals of delight!! but then i got to thinking, if these guys have figured it out why can't bmw? i think they should buy the company or contract with them to build this technology into all future production! i guess that they would have to acknowledge the problem to do that. wait...isn't the first step to overcoming a problem admitting it exists ??oh well... i'm going to the green mountain rally this weekend and will be a very happy camper!

[soldemall]

Thanks for report. Have been thinking about that box on my new (to me) 1100GS. All it's doing is fattening up the injection pulse, so will be interested in seeing what it might do to mileage. I've been considering a home remedy to see what might happen. By placing a small resistor, about 100 ohms, in the ground side of the throttle position sensor, the computer will think the throttle is open more than it is, and will appropriately fatten the pulse. We used this as a trouble shooting bug at a national competition (autos) several years ago. The result was a pulse wide enough to make the car run too rich, but not rich enough to set a trouble code. Suppose one could make the resistor switched, so that it became effective only during the trouble periods. Anyway, would be interested in a follow up on your fuel consumption and any longer term impressions you might have.

[jgr451]

Interesting...my 2 carburetted BMWs did not surge.I was very interested in and test rode a late model R1150 RT and guess what,it surged.The dealer shrugged it off by saying they all do that.Nope!Bought a k instead.That surge would have made me crazy.

[leest]

I just ordered a Techlousion for my 1994 R1100RS. Any poiters on installation and set up would be greatly appreciated.

Souds to good to be true. I've been trying to improve my bikes performance forever.

Lee

[CustomSarge]

of worms, that is.
Specifically:
1> Is "surging" the behavior of an underdamped closed loop system? i.e. If the O2 sensors' input is responded to too quickly by the injectors change of "dose"; the system will constantly hunt for the steady state which never happens.
2> Could the variance in severity be due to O2 sensor response times? Chemical sensors are problematic in repeatable precision vs response times.
3> Perhaps an answer lurks in changing the response time of the O2 sensor. At least this would stretch the oscillation time of the surging. I'd try putting increasing amounts of capacitance across the O2 output. Maybe 1, 10, 25, 50, 100 uF..... whatever, just to see how behavior shifts (16+Volt caps).
4> My R11HR doesn't surge: I swapped the O2 sensor for a potentiometer / resistor set that outputs a fixed 1 Volt maximum. I set it for .5 Volt ~= 15air : 1fuel mix. Since it doesn't tour, automatic fuel / air remix is irrelevant.
5> A big tip of the hat to the Techlusion folks, what they pulled off is NOT trivial. Good Engineering there.
6> I'm just curious whether we're addressing the cause or salving over the symptoms.

Fresh Worms...... the can is OPEN !!

I await replies from those who REALLY know this (and can tell without MIB making them disappear... tee hee hee)
TNX 2 all <<<)))

[phoenixtexas]

Just my 2 cents' worth. I have about 1k miles on a Techlusion on my 1996 R1100R, and it runs like a different machine. Smooth as silk at all RPMs, and it will hum along cheerfully in top gear on a level road at 2.5k RPMs, and no longer clatters or pings during a high speed roll-on. Twist the throttle in 5th gear at 5k RPMS, and the bike almost jumps. I drilled the exhaust to keep the stock look rather than an aftermarket exhaust. The NGK plugs were very, very light tan at 1k miles and show no sign of richness at my box settings. My hunch is that the Techlusion doesn't increase horsepower, simply allows the 259 engine to perform as it is capable of doing. Also, BMW-approved NOS octane booster will make it even friskier.

[LeRoux Strydom]

I'm another 1150 owner who, at first, wondered why I ever bought the bike in the first place. Even after a very thorough service by my dealer, the surging was intolerable.

Then, the dealer suggested I try a Techlusion R259. I bought it and installed it myself. After setting it to the recommended settings in the instructions, I took a ride. Fantastic! Now I *love* my bike, and can't get on the road enough.

Money well spent. But what annoys me greatly, is that BMW refuses to recognize this major flaw in the motorcycle, and do something for the owners of affected models. Their attitude is not the way to build customer loyalty.

[phoenixtexas]

My R-bike is also a Titan Silver. Bottom line, though, is that we shouldn't have had to spend the $200+ to get the bikes to run right. But as I said, mine runs like a different machine.

[soldemall]

What do they subtitle this Oilhead site - a great surge forward?

Follow up on my earlier comment. I went back to basics, and moved the throttle position sensor up a bit. It was set at .35v, and is not at .5. This is more in line with what the car settings are for most manufacturers. The surge is gone, and I have the $250 still. Would recommend this as a first step for anyone.
Just as background, though retired now, I used to teach this stuff for a major auto manufacturer.

[LeRoux Strydom]

Originally posted by old Paul
What do they subtitle this Oilhead site - a great surge forward?

Follow up on my earlier comment. I went back to basics, and moved the throttle position sensor up a bit. It was set at .35v, and is not at .5. This is more in line with what the car settings are for most manufacturers. The surge is gone, and I have the $250 still. Would recommend this as a first step for anyone.
Just as background, though retired now, I used to teach this stuff for a major auto manufacturer.

Moving the TPS will not work for 1150 motors with O2 sensor/ Late Motronic ECU's.

[Mr. Frank]

I believe that BMW admitted and fixed the surging problem on oilheads by going to the double plugs. People who have gone to the two plug conversion report a dramatic improvement in drivability and response. Mileage is also improved. My bike runs great at all engine speeds and gets extremely good mileage.

[lcarlson]

I've had two single-plug oilheads (98 R1100R and 2002 R1150R) and neither has ever surged. Guess I'm just lucky --

[Rad]

My 96 R1100RS surged so bad it was not possible to ride around town in third gear. My 99S and 01 GS had/have no surging problems.


FWIW I never did any of the ‘fixes” back then for the 96 RS.

[lkchris]

Originally posted by flash412 One would think that seven years after it left the factory, BMW should have been able to make it run right ...

One would think that after seven years, BMW MOA could have exerted some influence on BMW ... .

[kbasa]

See comments elsewhere in this forum about the issues with the NA/MOA relationship.

[EenyBear]

Although I never noticed any surging on my 2007 twin spark R1200S ... I sure noticed when it was gone after I installed the Techlusion 1334. Likewise the flat spot around 5000PRM disappeared and the the vibration above 6000 RPM is gone.

The otherwise stock bike was smooth as silk across the entire powerband.

Since then, I've installed custom catless headers and the Techlusion was easy to adjust to accommodate the higher airflow. Still smooth.

I heartily recommend the Techlusion.

Cheers,
Ian

[JALAIMO146577]

Where can this Techlusion be purchased?? And how difficult to install??

:clap

[rbertalotto]

Although I never noticed any surging on my 2007 twin spark R1200S ... I sure noticed when it was gone after I installed the Techlusion 1334.


I've been up down and sideways on the surge issue of single spark BMW oilheads.

I had a 2000 R1100Rs that was a horrible surger. I trieed everything to fix it. Changing the value on the TPS, removing the CAT so I could play with the O2 sensor and the CatCodePlugs. Nothing worked. A real good TB snyc and a good valve adjust helped a bit, but the surge would not go away. Friends that only rode surging BMWs would take my 2000 for a ride and report that it wasn't surging. They were just completely used to it.

I then bought a 2002 R1150RS and it also surged. Not as bad as the 2000, but bad enough that I sold it within three weeks and bought a 2004 Rockster with dual sparks heads.......ZERO SURGE! Perfect!

I now have a 2004 R1150RS and it also has zero surge.

I've ridden dozens of oilheads from folks that say "my bike doesn't surge" and lo and behold, they surge. But folks just get used to it. I couldn't.

Having multiple brands of bikes, I'd get on my Honda or V Strom and it would be nice and smooth. Like night and day to the single spark oilheads. Not an issue if you are used to it.....

[jingdog]

Hmm maybe BMW needs to make a pill for people who think it surges to turn them into people who think it doesnt.:hungover

[Tlaw1994]

I have heard that the 04 with twin spark corrected the surging, is that true? It surprised me that the mentioned 07 surged.

[Andy VH]

To the original poster of this thread, keep in mind its not as simple as BMW using the Techlusion technology, or BMW buying Techlusion. BMW has to build bikes that meet ALL the parameters enforced upon them by the EPA, the various European ECC and the California CARB clean air regulations, to produce bikes that will always run clean, in widely different environmental conditions and elevations.

The Techlusion systems, actually alter the fuel/air mixture to the point that I bet some bikes may not pass EPA exhaust emission regulations. But, since that is done after BMW has built the bike, and is done by the hands of the bike owner or shop, how can that be effectively regulated and controlled? BMW is held to the parameters of regulations imposed on them. If that weren't the case, our BMWs would run even better and stronger than they do, right off the showroom floor.

By the way, I installed a Techlusion on my 94 R1100RS, but not because it surged. I never had the surging problem on my RS from day one. But, I had modified my muffler to get better sound (not louder mind you) and "maybe" a bit better performance. What I got was a lot more "popping" in the exhaust on decel with the clutch out. So I added the Techlusion to "fatten up" the fuel air mix enough to reduce the popping.

[Red100RT]

i just bought a new motorcycle for 249.00 + tax! how is that, you may ask? well, i installed a techlusion box on my 97 r11rs, and i swear it's like riding a new bike!! i had tried everthing that was suggested here including an obsessive-compulsive synching of the tb's and valve adjustment and went back to running the stock cat code plug, and by the way thanks to all the folks who offered feedback, i learned a great deal about the bike from this whole process, greatly appreciated. while i noticed a slight improvement in performance and reduced vibration, i couldn't shake the surging and hunting. so i figured i'd give the powerbox a try, and boy am i glad i did. i guess i had gotten so used to the problem that with it gone i'm just amazed at how well this bike performs. people must think i'm nuts because i've been riding around emitting hoots of joy and sqeals of delight!! but then i got to thinking, if these guys have figured it out why can't bmw? i think they should buy the company or contract with them to build this technology into all future production! i guess that they would have to acknowledge the problem to do that. wait...isn't the first step to overcoming a problem admitting it exists ??oh well... i'm going to the green mountain rally this weekend and will be a very happy camper!

Check the Flea Market as I just posted my Techlusion R259 for sale not 5 minutes ago. Reason for selling is I had a surge problem on my '04 R1150RT dual spark model and the reason for surging was stick coils that were arcing internally to the anti-static shield which produced a surge like condition. The Techlusion actually worked to mask the real problem. Hence, after I finally found the root cause of the problem I find I no longer need the Techlusion. The Techlusion works well and I considered leaving it alone but it does result in a loss of about 2 mpg and I would rather save the gas.

James

[JimMoore]

For you R1100 owners, before you pay for a Techusion, try thowing your cat code plug in the garbage. That will take your 02 sensor out of the loop. Completely solved the surging on my '97 RT. It won't work on the 1150s, however.

[BBKME]

Amen to that, Jim. I did just that. Took out the cat code plug about 3 weeks ago and its surge free. Absolutely no more cold start hiccups or hunting around 3000 RPM. Fuel economy seems to have dropped a bit but I'm only on my 3rd tank so I'm still keeping an eye on that. It's a completely different ride for me now. I love it! :dance

[JALAIMO146577]

Amen to that, Jim. I did just that. Took out the cat code plug about 3 weeks ago and its surge free. Absolutely no more cold start hiccups or hunting around 3000 RPM. Fuel economy seems to have dropped a bit but I'm only on my 3r tank so I'm still keeping an eye on that. It's a completely different ride for me now. I love it! :dance


How do I find and remove the cat code plug?

[BBKME]

Under the seat in the "fuse box". It's a one inch square relay. It should be tan or possibly pink. Just pull it out. You must also reset by pulling the #5 fuse for a few seconds. If you don't like the ride thereafter just put the plug back in. Good luck.

[Andy VH]

My R1100RS is an early 94 model, which never came with any CAT Code plug. But it does have the O2 sensor. So my bike has always been ridden in "plug-free" mode for all of its 143,000 miles, and I have never had any surging issues. Before I modified the intake and exhaust, and installed the Techlusion, I would always get about 42mpg, sometimes as high as 50mpg depending on the riding conditions.

Now I regularly get about 40 mpg.

[boxerr]

My new to me 2002 R1150R surges, as did my 2001 R1150R, and my twin spark R1150RT also surged. Dealer couldnt fix that one either.

If my R wasnt such a great bike, I would probably sell it. I just put up with it.

[rbertalotto]

If your bike has a catalytic converter and you remove the cat code plug, be aware that the cat will now run much hotter. But in the dark, a glowing cat is pretty neat....:thumb

[Jim Rogers]

For you R1100 owners, before you pay for a Techusion, try thowing your cat code plug in the garbage. That will take your 02 sensor out of the loop. Completely solved the surging on my '97 RT. It won't work on the 1150s, however.

I bought my 2000 RTP in March. Had the surge. Did the forum search. Found Jim Moore's previous post about the cat code plug. Before removal, surge. After removal, no surge. Put it back, surge. Took it out, no surge. Did a double blind test with 3 non-beemer riders. In, they knew it. Left it out.

[dpilot]

I have never noticed any surging on my 1999 RTP.
Now (thanks to you guys) I probably will!!!!!!!!!

JimV.

[BBKME]

RoyB - I most definitely noticed the cat is much hotter. It's certainly hotter on my legs than it was before I removed the cat code plug. Will the pipe discolor with the extra heat over time?

[sriverag]

Would anybody know if this CAT code fix would work in a R1150RT 2002?

I also have this bad surging problem between 3 and 4K which is the most common RPM range I ride the bike.

Thanks!

[Zygmund]

I have a '02 RT and have played with the green and pink CCP setups and it does make a difference. Try it without the CCP.....
:lurk

[JALAIMO146577]

Attempted to remove the yellow cube relay and none was there. Front row has one grey 1" square relay and three 1/2" x 1" black relays, looking from the top left to right. There are no other ports to accept additional relays. Is it one of the black one's or does my '94 R1100RS just does not have one?

Appreciate some insight.

[kgadley01]

I'm not sure about the 94 model. it may not have one. or did the Previous Owner remove it. just right of center in the first row is where it is supposed to be. is there an empty spot on your bike there? On the 99 RT its yellow, other years are pink. I took mine out last spring and my bike runs great....

[sriverag]

I have a '02 RT and have played with the green and pink CCP setups and it does make a difference. Try it without the CCP.....
:lurk

Thanks Zygmund!

I'll try this and will see if there is any changes.

[BBKME]

I recall reading a post that the early RS doesn't have the relay.

[deanwoolsey]

What I know for certain is that the Techlusion does solve the surge issue but on my 1150RT did drop the mileage to about 40. The factory recommended settings did not work for me either, but tuning her by ear sure did. That and an Aeroflow windshield made for a whole new bike. :D

[rbertalotto]

The surging problem is all about emissions.....and "legal" emissions on a boxer means a lean running engine or better combustion through twin spark plugs (changing spark plugs to different, multi electrode types also helps BTW)

The techlusion and removing the CCP simply add more fuel and allow the engine to run richer, but if not exactly spot on, like simply removing the CCP, you now run excess gas into the exhaust system thereby causing quite a bit of heat in the Cat. It has been reported by others that excessive rich mixture can damage the CAT. If you remove the CCP, do not park your bike in a dry hay field....
If the Techlusion is set up correctly, this isn't an issue, but usually the fuel mileage will go down a bit. If the mileage goes down a lot, you are most likely running the engine too rick.

All of the above is what I have been led to believe over the years.......It could be totally wrong.......:blush

[deanwoolsey]

I know of a couple police cars that went up in flames after being parked in dry fields after driving high speeds for a few minutes. This is caused by the fuel mapping. Higher horsepower requires more fuel so at full throttle the fuel maps to extra rich and will cause the cat to glow bright red after a short time. What will kill the cat in very short order is a fouled plug or missing ignition wire. This causes the unburnt fuel/air mixture to ignite in the cat and will get hot enough to cause a melt-down.

[Red100RT]

Sooooo, gut the cat and wahla end of problem. In fact, gut the cat, jerk out the ABS brake system, throw away the charcoal canister, and cut the middle (brown) wire in the 3 pin connectors that attach to the stick coils and you is well on the way to owning a real nice motorcycle.:D While you're at it take about a quarter inch out of that brown wire just for good measure.

[kgadley01]

Sooooo, gut the cat and wahla end of problem. In fact, gut the cat, jerk out the ABS brake system, throw away the charcoal canister, and cut the middle (brown) wire in the 3 pin connectors that attach to the stick coils and you is well on the way to owning a real nice motorcycle.:D While you're at it take about a quarter inch out of that brown wire just for good measure.

I like the way you think!!!! :D

[MrB]

I have never noticed any surging on my 1999 RTP.
Now (thanks to you guys) I probably will!!!!!!!!!

JimV.

That's what happened to me! I was happy and oblivious until somebody described the conditions where the surging would be apparent. Then-- Oh, sh*t! It does surge! Then it drove me crazy. I will do you a favor and not tell you when to look for it.

BTW, I've owned three dual-spark bikes (four, if you count the F650) and they did not surge.

[rbertalotto]

BTW, if anyone wants to do away with the CAT on your bike, and you don't want to spend upwards of $1000 on an aftermarket exhaust system, you can read an article I wrote on the subject here...........

http://www.rvbprecision.com/motorcycles/

On my 04, dual spark, I have zero surging. But I still didn't like that nuclear reactor right under my transmission and against the sides of my feet. So I removed it with a couple of 45 degree exhaust pipes from JC Whitney and a "close out table" muffler I found at my local motorcycle shop. (it also removed about 25 pounds of extra weight)

[Red100RT]

Hi Roy,
Yup, I felt the same way about that hot plate right under my transmission so I removed the muffler/cat, drew a dotted line on top of cat chamber, took to my local machine shop and said "cut here and with your handy grinder cut what looks like a bees nest out and weld back together" and that was that. Now, you could argue that there was enough air flow over the cat chamber to protect the trans and maybe that's true but maybe not especially when sitting at a stop light that takes 5 minutes to change or when you're stuck in traffic on the 405 (Seattle) but with no cat then nooooo problemo and if nothing else she sounds better.:D

[Red100RT]

You know I have thought about maybe a new R1200xx but after 5 years of getting my '04RT the way I want it and the way it blessed well should have been in the first place I just have had happier thoughts especially when I hear the new ones have an even more complex engine management system and not one but TWO oxygen sensors.

And now snow is forecast for tonight:banghead