Speeding on Group Rally Rides - Part Deux, the Civilized Version

[Easy]

I just want to say I think it was very unfair the way Rob was treated in the first thread. I have it under good authority that the EPA prohibits Rob from riding less than 80 miles per hour. Just think about it. With all that electronic equipment, if he were to ride below 60 the earth’s magnetic fields would change, continents would collide, and television sets all over the world would get a blank screen. Heck, the last time he rode through Texas my toaster did not work right for a week.

And Steve, if you think the last thread was rough; you should have Thanksgiving dinner with my family.

Easy :german

[hlothery]

When I started back to riding several years and about 100K miles ago, a close friend who used to race BMW bikes gave me some advice. High on that list was, never ride in a group. He felt it was inherently much too dangerous a thing to do. I failed to follow his advice one time, when I led a group of 12 HD riders into the Hill Country on a ride of about 200 miles, never exceeding the speed limit (as is my usual practice). I was constantly harrassed about riding too fast, blamed for the ineptitude of other riders in the group, and accused of nearly causing an accident because one inexperienced rider drifted out of his lane in a curve. Add to that the difficulties of when, and for how long to stop (my wife was two-up, and amazed at the frequency with which these big, burly guys had to take a break).:violin

Never again!;)

[535is]

(my wife was two-up, and amazed at the frequency with which these big, burly guys had to take a break).:violin

There is no such thing as a "big, burly" bladder ... :whistle

[lockster]

I also agree that Rob was treat unfairly in the 1st thread. I was actually on the ride in question. In fact I was just in front of the sweeper...
I have years of experience on bikes, not just pottering about 10 % above the speed limit
I am a UK advanced police driver, an member of the Advanced Driving examiners and instructors. I have completed Pursuit and containment courses, personnel protection driving and also enjoyed being a police biker. So when i say the ride was not dangerous I mean it.
The sweeper of the ride had to go potty, as we say. So i waited at the next junction. The rest waited for me at the main road. If riders went on ahead they always waited at the next point. I found no group mentality only people riding above their ability for no reason.
I find it disgusting that some one waits a couple of weeks, then threatens to sue the MOA.
Any decent rider would have approached the group at the end and explained their concerns. LIKE AN ADULT . Then differing views could have been heard and may be we would all learn from each others feeling.
At one stage one rider went into a corner too hot and almost lost it. There was no one in front of him. I was not pushing him I can assure you of that. It just happens, even to the best of us. A slight slip of concentration, or miscalculation. But we don't blame any one else. he then slowed up and rode his own ride, as he should have done to start.
The group split up at a waypoint and the 3 of us followed the leader back. The other group went on further and did not return to the camp site till well after 9 pm.
There was nothing said, nothing mentioned and no one was approached. The rider with the complaint knew we were camping next to him so I wonder ?

Any way , I will gladly go again with the leader, I feel I gained a greater knowledge of local roads and had a laugh throughout.

Lockster

[StevenK]

I followed the previous thread, although not as closely as I might have, had I known that it would be revisited at a later date. So forgive me if my recollection is not 100% accurate, but I'm pretty sure I'l get enough right to make my point.

To me, this thread was another example of the MOA herd mentality. Anyone that contemplates criticizing the MOA, or any of its fair-haired boys and girls is in for a rough go of it. Wild accusations will be made, facts will be skewed, motives will be ruthlessly scrutinized, and in this particular instance, the OP will be taken to task for not doing something (leaving the ride) that he repeatedly stated he did do.

First off, anyone leading a ride that is club sponsored, organized under the umbrella of a club or initiated at a club function should follow all applicable traffic laws. Period. You can make all the excuses you want, and joke about the riding habits of your buddies, but that doesn't change the fact that a ride leader routinely exceeding the speed limit is being irresponsible. Now, many people in the original thread pointed out that the ride in question was much more loosely organized that the OP may have believed. Even if you accept that premise, irresponsible group riding, and the potential for litigation that arises from same is still a worthy topic of conversation. I think it's fair to say that the OP could have framed his concerns is a less strident fashion, but it is equally true that the long knives came out rather quickly, and what should have been a discussion about group rides became a back and forth over potential liability, and irresponsible behavior by the OP, for which there was scant evidence. In fact, while the OP never backed down, he never made any personal attacks, something that can not be said for his critics.

Second, it's a well-known practice that less experienced riders be placed near the front of a group ride. The purpose of this is two-fold. One is to keep them integrated within the group, and the other is to keep the leader from riding way beyond the the abilities of the group. If he is paying attention, he will immediately notice if the lesser riders directly behind him are falling back, and will make the necessary adjustments.

Third, the OP in the previous thread was repeatedly taken to task for riding beyond his ability. I'm pretty sure he never made that claim. I think that what he said was that the ride was at a pace outside of his comfort zone. It's safe to say that there one may be technically competent to ride at 80 mph, while at the same time feel discomfort at doing so.

Fourth, I don't recall the OP or anyone else threatening to sue the MOA. I recall that he stated repeatedly that he was concerned that the MOA was at risk of being named in a lawsuit if and when an accident occurs. One can disagree with his reasoning, and, frankly, with the way that he went on and on about it. But unless it can be shown that a threat was actually made, he deserves an apology.

[UncleHowie]

Thanks, StevenK for sharing your thoughts.

While I did not follow the original thread with a fine-tooth comb, I believe I read it in its entirety over a couple of forum visits. I also posted in it.

Your commentary outlines much of the same info I gleaned from the original thread.

It's interesting how different people can read the same thread and get different info from it.

-Uncle Howie

[freedom45]

Our group has rides that start at the same place and end at a predetermined point. In between there are points of interest, but, never, never, do we encourage more than a pair to ride together. We all know where we are going, but, different ideas of how to ride simply don't go well with safety or image. See you at the next stop.

BMWs and group riding?! laughable.

[cathdeac]

Having served a number of years as the "Safety Officer" for "HOG Group Rides", it was not that difficult to get folks to comply....

If you MUST group ride, here's a quick overview of what we did...

When the groups increased size and "new ridership" the problems started surfacing.

What quickly became my modus operandi was to have "new" riders hang at the back of the pack and pace with the "trail" bikes. These guys set the "pace" and served as observers. If a rider was noticed doing something dangerous, we would gently "corral" them at the next stopping point and explain what we are seeing. This would not initially be "confrontational"... and was done in a spirit of friendship... Most folks comply easily.. others just did not continue riding with us. Like I said, it was very low key... and with several "safety guys" communicating the point(s), the discussion was usually cordial.

As for speed, it was terribly important for the "lead" to maintain a steady speed.. no "rapid" accellerations/adjustments.

Next, other "safety" riders were placed within the group who were adept at maintaining "distance" from the lead or safety rider nearest in front of them... The "group" barely noticed the distribution of "safety" folks and their strategic deployment.

Each of the "safety" guys knew the route and destinations... it was no race to stay "packed"...or running as a pack..

Rides usually began in early morning... after lunch, the "boogey" (fast) riders would be in the lead group and the "group/pack" would string out... again, the goal being to get everyone to complete the "ride" near the final stop.... but folks could "wave off" from a "safety" rider and head their own direction.. Usually this was honored by early departing riders... the only reason we would "stop" would be in cases of mechanical or personal difficulty.. (such as one friend needing to take some meds because of some symptoms he was experiencing)..

The ride was always discussed before we mounted up. Each rider was told.. "you are pilot in command... ride your own ride... do not feel you are "required" to keep up if folks are doing things you are uncomfortable with... We would have others who would usually "hang back" in the group, near the back.. and if riders were "falling out", would also tag along to ensure no one was left alone unless they waved us on...

[kbasa]

Important point: This ride was not organized by, sanctioned by, or in any other way an MOA sanctioned activity.

[kbasa]

Third, the OP in the previous thread was repeatedly taken to task for riding beyond his ability. I'm pretty sure he never made that claim. I think that what he said was that the ride was at a pace outside of his comfort zone. It's safe to say that there one may be technically competent to ride at 80 mph, while at the same time feel discomfort at doing so.

.


In this situation, I was riding outside my personal comfort zone 90 percent of the ride, while also exposing myself to the possibility of a ticket.


Interpret as you see fit, but if you're riding outside your comfort zone for that much of the ride, you're making a potentially grave error in judgement, IMHO.

[hlothery]

To me, this thread was another example of the MOA herd mentality. Anyone that contemplates criticizing the MOA, or any of its fair-haired boys and girls is in for a rough go of it. Wild accusations will be made, facts will be skewed, motives will be ruthlessly scrutinized, and in this particular instance, the OP will be taken to task for not doing something (leaving the ride) that he repeatedly stated he did do.

.

Wow............sounds like you don't like us very much. I apologize........BTW, I have no hair.

[Statdawg]

I also agree that Rob was treat unfairly in the 1st thread. I was actually on the ride in question. In fact I was just in front of the sweeper...
I have years of experience on bikes, not just pottering about 10 % above the speed limit
I am a UK advanced police driver, an member of the Advanced Driving examiners and instructors. I have completed Pursuit and containment courses, personnel protection driving and also enjoyed being a police biker. So when i say the ride was not dangerous I mean it.
( snip).............
Any way , I will gladly go again with the leader, I feel I gained a greater knowledge of local roads and had a laugh throughout.

Lockster

Mick was this the run to the coast for lobster or was this just a group that went on their own ?

[Gilly]

http://www.madison.com/tct/news/457154

[535is]

I followed the previous thread, although not as closely as I might have, had I known that it would be revisited at a later date. So forgive me if my recollection is not 100% accurate, but I'm pretty sure I'l get enough right to make my point.

To me, this thread was another example of the MOA herd mentality. Anyone that contemplates criticizing the MOA, or any of its fair-haired boys and girls is in for a rough go of it. Wild accusations will be made, facts will be skewed, motives will be ruthlessly scrutinized, and in this particular instance, the OP will be taken to task for not doing something (leaving the ride) that he repeatedly stated he did do.
You're great with sweeping generalization and short on facts. So I'm part of a "herd", huh? Just because I belong to this club and I don't necessarily agree with the OP, I become 'cattle'. Think again. I have never ridden anywhere with another BMW rider nor in any group that was not at least half populated by my two brothers and I. So count me out, but count me annoyed enough by your broad brush to respond:
First off, anyone leading a ride that is club sponsored, organized under the umbrella of a club or initiated at a club function should follow all applicable traffic laws. Period.
Wrong. "Initiated at a club function"? Let's say I go to a rally (pretty unlikely because I have no desire to camp with y'all, but let's just suppose). Then, I decide to ride somewhere with a couple of other folks who are there. Not club sponsored nor organized under the umbrella of a club. Just going to find a place for a meal. I will ride as I choose. So will my companions. Hopefully, we'll stay together, but that is entirely up to us as individuals, not you nor MOA nor anyone else who is not on the ride. If any of the group doesn't like the ride, he is free to leave, or complain after he catches up, or whatever else he chooses to do. Another individual choice.
You can make all the excuses you want, and joke about the riding habits of your buddies, but that doesn't change the fact that a ride leader routinely exceeding the speed limit is being irresponsible.
Sure it is. It's also an individual choice. Not a club mandate, a club policy, or even a club suggestion. The club is actually better off not regulating individual behavior of this sort in any way. It is not their responsibility to do so nor is it reasonably possible to police it.

Starting to see a pattern here?
Now, many people in the original thread pointed out that the ride in question was much more loosely organized that the OP may have believed. Even if you accept that premise, irresponsible group riding, and the potential for litigation that arises from same is still a worthy topic of conversation.
It might be equally worthy to consider how many fairies can dance on the head of a pin. Motorcycle riders are individually licensed, not licensed as a group except in very rare circumstances where they might have a government-issued permit of some kind (parade, police-escorted tour, etc.). As such, they are individually responsible for their behavior. That a group leader exceeds a speed limit or runs a traffic light does not provide a legal rationale to anyone else for doing the same thing behind him. Likewise, someone behind him breaking the law does not confer any responsibility on him, so long as he has broken no laws.

The responsibility is individual. As a result, there is virtually no way liability will rest with the organization or even with any other members of the group. Ask the cop who stops a member of the group for speeding. Can he cite them all for the violation of only one? No. Will he cite the leader because the ninth guy back was speeding to catch up? Hardly.
Fourth, I don't recall the OP or anyone else threatening to sue the MOA. I recall that he stated repeatedly that he was concerned that the MOA was at risk of being named in a lawsuit if and when an accident occurs. One can disagree with his reasoning,
In my opinion as a lawyer of 25 years in practice, I do disagree with his reasoning. I am confident in saying that his concern is misplaced and exaggerated. Yes, you can sue anyone for anything, but in a case where you're going after an organization the size of MOA, you are going to need a lawyer to do it. I know of none who would look at the issue raised here and be willing to go out on the limb to file such a case. I know I wouldn't. If a cyclist acts illegally or crashes as a result of his own indiscretion, it matters not whether there are other cyclists riding in front of or behind him. It is his own responsibility to ride prudently, and no club affiliation, or lack thereof, is going to change that.

[henzilla]

http://www.madison.com/tct/news/457154

That is typical large V-Twin group riding ...not the type we were discussing here. I would not, nor almost anyone( with the exception of some life long V-Twin friends) I know be in such a large formation. I used to ride these types of bikes and rode once in something that large, never again as there were two incidents alone on that 40 mile ride I witnessed...It's unfortunate the accident happened and for anybody that suffered from it...Following too closely and side by side invites this chain reaction type of incident as does limited experience. Trying to pass or get around it is also as dangerous for the riders and the other road users. Speed was not a factor...they were on a controlled access freeway as well.

[rinty]

Could someone post a link to the "first thread"?

TIA

[gfspencer]

What quickly became my modus operandi was to have "new" riders hang at the back of the pack and pace with the "trail" bikes.
I guess you could do it that way.

Edelweiss - which has been responsible for literally thousands of group rides - puts the inexperienced rider right behind the tour leader. The best riders are at the back of the pack because they are capable of catching up.

I personally hate group rides.

[amiles]

"To me, this thread was another example of the MOA herd mentality."




I don't believe that I am associated with any other group of any type that has less of a Herd mentality than the MOA.

This part of the post makes me feel that the writer is trying to churn up a controversy.

[Rapid_Roy]

That is typical large V-Twin group riding ...not the type we were discussing here. I would not, nor almost anyone( with the exception of some life long V-Twin friends) I know be in such a large formation. I used to ride these types of bikes and rode once in something that large, never again as there were two incidents alone on that 40 mile ride I witnessed...It's unfortunate the accident happened and for anybody that suffered from it...Following too closely and side by side invites this chain reaction type of incident as does limited experience. Trying to pass or get around it is also as dangerous for the riders and the other road users. Speed was not a factor...they were on a controlled access freeway as well.
Yep. Around here, the HD crowd always ride side by side, possibly for effect. I hate that.
I don't trust anybody that much, including my brothers.
It causes stuff like this to happen.

[WildBlue]

Could someone post a link to the "first thread"?

TIA

Ditto

[Statdawg]

I had beer spilled on me at a MOA National rally and you want me to ride with them ?:dunno



http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showthread.php?t=37013

[kbasa]

"To me, this thread was another example of the MOA herd mentality."




I don't believe that I am associated with any other group of any type that has less of a Herd mentality than the MOA.

This part of the post makes me feel that the writer is trying to churn up a controversy.

He's seen the cows on my helmet, I bet.

http://kbasa.smugmug.com/photos/2728075_RdsZn-M.jpg

[jdmetzger]

He's seen the cows on my helmet, I bet.

http://kbasa.smugmug.com/photos/2728075_RdsZn-M.jpg

Some people clearly don't like mooving as fast as others on the road. I think arguing about it is udderly ridiculous, though.

:hide

[UncleHowie]

Some people clearly don't like mooving as fast as others on the road. I think arguing about it is udderly ridiculous, though.

:hide

Hay- I've been ruminating on this, as well. I just carry extra money for bale!

Actually, since my bike has only one horn, it behooves me to ride at the tail end...:whistle

[Visian]

He's seen the cows on my helmet, I bet.

http://kbasa.smugmug.com/photos/2728075_RdsZn-M.jpg

are those m000000bs under your 'stich?

[KGT1200]

I guess you could do it that way.

Edelweiss - which has been responsible for literally thousands of group rides - puts the inexperienced rider right behind the tour leader. The best riders are at the back of the pack because they are capable of catching up.
I personally hate group rides.

and are experienced and capable of stopping without rear ending the other bikes:)

Group rides are for some, but to me they would make me nervous!

[jdmetzger]

and are experienced and capable of stopping without rear ending the other bikes:)

Group rides are for some, but to me they would make me nervous!

I've ridden in only one large group ride, and I won't ever do it again. It was a charity "rally". I was one of two BMW's there. They wanted to run side by side in the same lane, many couldn't keep their bikes straight, it was loud, the guy in front of me had a "classic" that was giving me carbon monoxide poisoning, and it was a boring route. The biggest problem, however, was the near accident that happened. We were going past a highway off-ramp and a person in a car (coming around on a cloverleaf) was watching the bikes go by and nearly didn't stop for the group. I saw it coming and was pretty worried because aside from him killing a bunch of people, I couldn't figure out where I was going to go so the people behind me wouldn't end up killing me in the ensuing pile-up. Fortunately the guy stopped at the last minute.

I was in one "smaller" ride - maybe 10 or so bikes at the West Bend rally. Aside from a guy in downtown Milwaukee nearly opening his SUV door into me, it was not a problem.

[Rapid_Roy]

......
I was in one "smaller" ride - maybe 10 or so bikes at the West Bend rally. Aside from a guy in downtown Milwaukee nearly opening his SUV door into me, it was not a problem.
Sorry Josh. I have since sold the SUV, purchased a VW Microbus and wear only Hemp clothing.
:ha

[jdmetzger]

Sorry Josh. I have since sold the SUV, purchased a VW Microbus and wear only Hemp clothing.
:ha

You know, for some reason I don't even find myself surprised about this revelation. It's probably because when I read your posts, I always picture this:

http://thebsreport.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/tommy-chong1.jpg

:ha

[KGT1200]

Sorry Josh. I have since sold the SUV, purchased a VW Microbus and wear only Hemp clothing.
:ha

Your killing me!:brad

[Rapid_Roy]

You know, for some reason I don't even find myself surprised about this revelation. It's probably because when I read your posts, I always picture this:

http://thebsreport.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/tommy-chong1.jpg

:ha
:ha
I look exactly like that. Except really short hair and no beard.

[bunkyone]

Hey all; I guess I missed the original post, is it possible to re post it? As ride captain for our local CMA group, I'll tell you how we do it around here: We set a time and place for everyone going on our weekly ride to meet, expect everyone to show up ready to ride, (Full tank, empty bladder, etc) This reduces the "Darn it, when are we going to leave?!!" pre-ride anxiety. We do give folks a little lee way (never more then 10 minutes) though. Then I will call a huddle of sorts, explain the route, the speed that we will try to average, (Never more then the posted limit, and, unless there are lots of "newbies" in the group, never less the 5 under) We'll go over hand signals, emergency procedures, and possible deviations on the route. Newbies get placed in front, just behind the ride leader (Moi) so that I can adjust the group speed to accommodate their level of experience. If more then six or 7 bikes show up, we will split the group into several packs, with the group president or other leader taking the second group. We will stagger our departure time, several minutes between groups to prevent blocking traffic with a large group of bikes. I know this songs like alot of regimentation, but I have found that bikers are harder to herd then cats, and no one likes surprises on a ride. !! Vaya con Dios, Dutch

[bunkyone]

Hey all; I forgot the most important thing; once everyone is ready, we PRAY!! Vaya con Dios, Dutch

[queretaro]

I pray also before taking off, and ride alone most of the time. Largest group I was in totaled 4 including me. The 3 others were much better than me. All went well.
regards,
Mark

[kbasa]

are those m000000bs under your 'stich?

Hell. No.

180 and mooobless.

:D