"Overstyled" motorcycles.

[jamesdunn]

I have recently noticed the newer automobiles seem to be "overstyled" much as they were in the late 50's and early 60's. Albeit, they are not sporting fins! At least, not yet. Also, I am thinking motorcycles have been going the same way for sometime now; that is, they too, are "overstyled", some of them looking somewhat like "Transformers" from the cartoon series and movies. Consider the latest V Max or Suzuki B10 (unsure if that is the correct model designation). Of course this is only my opinion and others may disagree.

The newest models that appeal to me are the retro bikes such as the retro Ducatis and Guzzis. They follow the traditions of the 70's, when I personally think bikes looked their best.

What do others here think? And what do you all consider the best styled bikes of the present and the past?

[BuckeyeClark]

They should all look like the 1994 R1100RS. :thumb Okay maybe just half of them the other half should look like the 1959 R60:thumb

[UncleHowie]

I tend to agree with the "overstyling" idea. The biggest offender to me is the strange exhaust systems some motorcycle OEMs are coming up with. Triangular mufflers? REALLY?:scratch

It's weird to me how some designs grow on me with time, and some remain eternally fugly. A few examples from the automotive world:
Nissan Murano- initially I hated the look, now I like it.
Pontiac Aztec- eternally fugly!
Honda Element- my wife bought one when they first came out, and we love it. She initially didn't want to even take it for a test drive. I like it because of the unbelievable front seat headroom. I do recall being at stoplights when we first got it, and having the occupants of neighboring cars openly laughing at our new car...:doh

[tessler]

Good Topic, James. I agree, the V-Max and the Suzuki B-King are very much what I'd call Over-Designed, tending towards target markets rather than being a product based on function and use. Then again, most product in the motorcycling sector seems to be about testosterone, bombast, and bling. Think helmet graphics... and the ever-popular first generation R1200 GS (which I think is a great bike, but aesthetically over-designed) :)

Just curious, but what automobiles are you thinking of, in your opening statement?

[108625]

:scratch

[jforgo]

There may be a more visible overstyling trend, for obvious reasons. But at the same time there seems much more genericization ioverall. Many of the latest Hondas, Mercedes, and Hyundais look nearly identical; I find myself looking for the badge to tell. Then there is the very long standing Mercedes/ Lexus siamese style.

As to motorcycles, aficionados may focus on key features or paint jobs by year, but the typical 600cc crotch rocket's lines seem 95% identical across brands.

The overstyled machines seem a good product to offer those who are bored with these plain vanilla clone designs...

[BubbaZanetti]

The newest models that appeal to me are the retro bikes such as the retro Ducatis and Guzzis. They follow the traditions of the 70's, when I personally think bikes looked their best.


or the newer Bonnies

i WISH bmw would build a R100S looking bike with modern brakes, suspension and drivetrain, i've wished it for a long time. follow the triumph/ducati lead, nothing too radical, just a little re-working of the type 247, i think chain driven dohc with fuel injection @ about 90 hp would not be out of line


but you're right, bikes DID look their best in 70s, at least to my eyes. before that they were too "spindlely" and delicate, the 80s added the plastic and separated bikes into aggressive crotch rockets or dopey looking cruisers, standards, for the most part, fell by the wayside. don't get me wrong, there are some sport bikes that really appeal to me, Ducati 916 even the new R1200S is aesthetically pleasing, but i really don't think BMW has built very good looking bikes for a long time, nor have most other manufacturers.

[jamesdunn]

Good Topic, James. I agree, the V-Max and the Suzuki B-King are very much what I'd call Over-Designed, tending towards target markets rather than being a product based on function and use. Then again, most product in the motorcycling sector seems to be about testosterone, bombast, and bling. Think helmet graphics... and the ever-popular first generation R1200 GS (which I think is a great bike, but aesthetically over-designed) :)

Just curious, but what automobiles are you thinking of, in your opening statement?

Actually, I saw a couple of BMW Z (?) sports cars side by side. The earlier version was a true beauty, looking much like a Mazda Miata, which if memory serves was itself based on the Lotus Elan. Anyway, the newer Z was I think needlessly creased, bulged and otherwise bent and shaped in ways that made it look "ugly" next to the original model. It seemed an exercise in "difference" for it's own sake. If push came to shove I'd purchase the former and pass on the later. I think if one compares the latest Toyota Corolla to somewhat earlier models you'll see a trend toward embellishment as well. Just my opinion....On the other hand cars such as the new Chevy Malibu or the Mini Cooper are clean and funtional designs. All that said I do not pay much attention to cars anymore, much prefering to check out the motorcycles. I agree with your assessment regarding bling, bombast and such. I think the apex of cycle design was achieved when some of the afore mentioned was less important.

[jamesdunn]

or the newer Bonnies

i WISH bmw would build a R100S looking bike with modern brakes, suspension and drivetrain, i've wished it for a long time. follow the triumph/ducati lead, nothing too radical, just a little re-working of the type 247, i think chain driven dohc with fuel injection @ about 90 hp would not be out of line


but you're right, bikes DID look their best in 70s, at least to my eyes. before that they were too "spindlely" and delicate, the 80s added the plastic and separated bikes into aggressive crotch rockets or dopey looking cruisers, standards, for the most part, fell by the wayside. don't get me wrong, there are some sport bikes that really appeal to me, Ducati 916 even the new R1200S is aesthetically pleasing, but i really don't think BMW has built very good looking bikes for a long time, nor have most other manufacturers.

I agree with all you write here and wonder why BMW has not boarded the retro wagon with Ducati ,Triumph and Guzzi. I think they may be trying to stay away from their recent past and the refusal by some to let go of the original boxer engine (airheads). That of course begat the oilheads, after the resistance of the faithful to the K bike intro. As time passes perhaps we'll see an up dated R100S or some such. I will not hold my breath however.

[TandemGeek]

Best Current, or at least relatively current... MV Agusta F4 in this color scheme

http://www.utahmotorcycleriders.com/Pictures/MvAgusta.jpg


As for the classics, the R32 is tough to beat

http://www.bmbikes.co.uk/photos/schemephotos/r32%20(1)3.jpg

[knary]

:dunno

A bike built to look and feel old, especially at the expense of readily available performance, would be seem to be the height of "over styling" and vanity.

There are beautiful and ugly bikes for every era. Some eras fit my personal aesthetics more. Some less. Of today's bikes, just about my least favorites are the entire line of Triumph cruiser/standards. There's old school and then there's stale. In comparison to Triumph, Harley is being innovative with their design.

[MotorradMike]

Form follows function. Any cosmetics must take a back seat to everything else.

Which explains why I lean towards BMW and away from Harley.

[SCQTT]

[QUOTE=TandemGeek;470260]Best Current, or at least relatively current... MV Agusta F4 in this color scheme

http://www.utahmotorcycleriders.com/Pictures/MvAgusta.jpg


Beautiful bodywork and swingarm, but the thing that everyone loves (those retarded 4 exhaust pipes) would be better suited to a monster truck. Talk about over styling.

[knary]

Comparing bikes from different niches also makes less than good sense. As stylish as that old sunbeam might be, it isn't the same kind of bike as a modern adventure bike.

So let's compare apples to apples, albeit old and new.

Who's first?

[Mika]

1969 Triumph Bonneville

http://m1ka.smugmug.com/photos/568479336_Y58rb-O.jpg

2009 Triumph Bonneville

http://m1ka.smugmug.com/photos/568479442_o4b5o-O.jpg


R 75/5

http://m1ka.smugmug.com/photos/123931288_YGvCi-L.jpg


R1200R

http://m1ka.smugmug.com/photos/132988350_jy8g6-L.jpg


Triumphs and BMW, two brands I really like, lead me to different conclusions as they up dated their bikes and looks over roughly the same time span.

The Bonneville is instantly recognizable to any bike lover. Triumph has done very well with the new Bonneville in the show room. Overall the updated Bonnie shares all the styling queues of the old Bonnie but does not grab me viscerally as the original did. For me it’s the difference between good drawing and art. The new Bonnie is a really good drawing but the old one is ART.

BMW boxers are hard for MOA members to be objective about. The R75 has a definite appeal even today. For me, the R1200R lines captures the imagination of the old bikes promise of long rides on winding roads while moving the styling forward in the process.

I would happily park any of the four in my garage. Oil leaks and Prince of Darkness electrics would not keep me form choosing the '69 Bonnie over the '09.

I would ride the snot out of the R1200R as it is. The R75 is the same bike now it was to me in its day; a great canvas to start shaping the lines to my taste. If I had money I would take either one.

YMMV

[TandemGeek]

This was the question...

And what do you all consider the best styled bikes of the present and the past?

I've put my cards on the table.

The MV Agusta is a poor example of styling greatness and originality. It was designed by the same man who designed the Ducati 916 and you can see it in almost all details.

I'd call it a refinement; never cared for the upper cowl or the exhaust and tail cone treatment on the 916, and, well, there are many other details that just aren't as appealing to my sense of aesthetics. Guess we have different opinions: imagine that.

Beautiful bodywork and swingarm, but the thing that everyone loves (those retarded 4 exhaust pipes) would be better suited to a monster truck. Talk about over styling.

Again, to each their own. The F4's pipes are far more appealing and interesting to me than what you'll find at the back end of the 916 ima4nr likes so much:

http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/1994-ducati-916-6.jpghttp://farm1.static.flickr.com/25/94558006_d9f7887b03.jpg

Anyone going to take exception to my 'classic' R32 selection????

[bicyclist]

If form follows function, why doesn't the front fender of that R1200R extend far enough to protect the oil cooler directly behind the front wheel?

If form follows function, where is the rear fender?

If form follows function, why is the back end jacked up like a cat in heat? If it were like the airhead, there would be space under the seat for an actual toolkit.

If form follows function, why does the muffler on my F800ST angle up so high that it intrudes on space that could be used for decent cases?

I think that BMW has elected to ignore function for style and is following everyone else. Way too many modern bikes have truncated fenders and jacked up rear ends. Too bad.

[tessler]

Comparing bikes from different niches also makes less than good sense. As stylish as that old sunbeam might be, it isn't the same kind of bike as a modern adventure bike.

So let's compare apples to apples, albeit old and new.

Who's first?I'm first

http://www.pomze.com/IMG/invent.jpg

[knary]

If form follows function, why doesn't the front fender of that R1200R extend far enough to protect the oil cooler directly behind the front wheel?

Protect it from what? Is anyone reporting failed oil coolers? :ear

If form follows function, where is the rear fender?
To protect what?

If form follows function, why is the back end jacked up like a cat in heat? If it were like the airhead, there would be space under the seat for an actual toolkit.

Toolkit for what? The chances that new R is going to need a wrench applied to it daily are slim to none, especially compared to an airhead brand new or otherwise.

If form follows function, why does the muffler on my F800ST angle up so high that it intrudes on space that could be used for decent cases?

Define "decent". I've recently downscaled from my heavy carry lots of stuff GS. I find that less is indeed more. If you want something that'll carry lots of stuff (too much?), there are plenty of choices.

I think that BMW has elected to ignore function for style and is following everyone else. Way too many modern bikes have truncated fenders and jacked up rear ends. Too bad.

If form really followed function, we'd be in cars. :D

[Mika]

What is the definition of function?

obviously YMMV with the resulting form

[MotorradMike]

That's exactly it Mika. Decide function first, then design to those requirements. If the function is simply to be different(glass motorcycle comes to mind) then you may not be able to ride it but it will still perform as designed.

I find the best examples are aircraft. No cosmetics other than paint.

This is why I believe BMW discontinued the cruiser. I think there was too much internal opposition to "styling".

[barryg]

There is a fine line between a bike/car looking cool or cartoonish.

[glennhendricks]

Heh. We had English bikes, that all looked kinda the same. Japanese bikes that all looked kinda the same. Italian bikes that all looked really odd and different from anything else. Harleys that all looked like crap.

And BMWs.

Then there was the Standard Japanese Bike. The Goldwing and clones. A couple of English bikes. Didn't see any Italian bikes. Harleys that looked and now ran like crap (AMF days).

and BMWs.


20 years off riding.


Now we have Harleys and clones. Crotch rockets. Goldwings (no more clones). A couple of English bikes made in India. Italian bikes that look a little odd and kinda like other bikes. Adventure Bikes.

And BMWs.

The SJB is no more and the style war is between the cruiser and crotch rockets.

Overstyled? Probably if for no other reason to try to sell a couple more.

[TandemGeek]

Where did I say that?

Right here.

Some vehicle milestones that stand out are, in my opinion:


...the Ducati 916.

The latter being the last bike styled with a character all of its own, without borrowing from anybody. It was so awesome that it basically set the bar for everything to come and was being copied for years: dual cat-style headlight, under-seat exhaust and more. Actually it had such an impact, that all designers are currently struggling to work on something new that will allow them to move away from that basic image. That's why you see these desperate and poor efforts which result in "overstyling". This is just how I see it

Frankly, if someone other than Massimo Tamburini designed the MV Agusta F4 then I would have also considered it a copy. However, since he designed the 916 both designs are 'his' and reflect his design philosophy. Again, the F4 is simply a far-more refined and better balanced design than the 916... which is what you'll usually find with most subsequent designs from the great designers and architects. I don't disagree that the 916 was a milestone, but that's not what the OP asked. Again, I know what appeals to my sense of taste and aesthetics and have ante'd up and layed my cards on the table...

So, if you really didn't think "it was so awesome", then what -- pray tell -- do YOU consider to be YOUR picks for the "best styled bikes of the present and the past"?

[jamesdunn]

Hey Glen, remember Triumphs are manufactured in England.

[108625]

Form doesn't follow function at BMW any more than it does anywhere else. If anything, I think they try too hard to contrive such an appearance; too many design "quirks" and characteristics are styled to look as if some engineer with no sense of asthetics is responsible.

Do you really think that hole through the middle of the final drive was purely a result of form following function?

Assymetrical headlights, massive crash guards and AfrikaKorps panniers on two-wheeled panzers, three switches and two hands to signal a turn, Hossack suspension, you name it, it's there just as much for the sake of calling attention to itself as it is to do the job.

Everyone has an image in mind for the bikes they want to sell as well as a role to fill.

Some of them just go a little more over the top than others; and become poseurs and parodies of themselves.

[Mika]

What do others here think? And what do you all consider the best styled bikes of the present and the past?

I've been going through my smugmug collection of pictures and a couple of other sites to figure out my answer to this. Been focusing on BMW's and here are some of the BMW bikes that stick out to me.

BMW R32 is an iconic bike for BMW and motorcycling in general. FFF and the execution of that are great. I am just not certain it is the styled bike of the period. I don’t have my choice yet.
http://m1ka.smugmug.com/photos/122163426_EBaFn-M.jpg

BMW R1200C: Clearly a BMW that takes cruiser styling to boxerland. People that have them seem to love them. Does a decent job on the FFF front. BMW’s problem wasn’t controversy over styling but the fact that not enough people bought them to love. When they did their market research to find out why it didn’t sell the problem was it wasn’t a V-twin not the styling.
http://m1ka.smugmug.com/photos/123942653_Sz9Jp-M.jpg

BMW R100/7: In the day of the UJM BMWs share many styling queues with them. What set it apart was the boxer engine. In this class the bike works in both FFF and styling unlike the C above.
http://m1ka.smugmug.com/photos/123931476_gUf3D-M.jpg
Honda’s CB750 is the iconic UJM of that day
http://m1ka.smugmug.com/photos/174574433_UexrE-M.jpg

BMW K75S: This model of the mini brick often gets overlooked as people focus on the iconic R100RS. The K75S works as a BMW and I think in the other areas we consider. The styling look was good in its day and seemed to complement the FFF elements. The thing that strikes me about this bike is the styling survives over time. You can pick apart elements like wheels and mufflers but, to my eye anyway, as a total package it is still as appealing today as the first day I saw one.
http://m1ka.smugmug.com/photos/123938575_bQ3Hg-M.jpg

Crotch rockets get hammered as a vanilla class of bikes. The thing is their form and function is defined by a standard set of racing rules that builders work with to design the bikes. With the same results and the extensive use of wind tunnels to develop fairings the vanilla look seems inevitable. Ducati gets a break in styling options because the V engine changes many of the issues with function that impact styling.

None of this is new. The Norton Manx and the BMW Compressor are two race bikes from the 50s that catch my fancy. The engines are different the styling is similar in many ways by the racing rules.

http://m1ka.smugmug.com/photos/122552790_EU4vE-M.jpg

http://www.vintagebike.co.uk/Bike%20Directories/Norton%20Bikes/images/Norton%20Manx.jpg
From: Vintagebike.co.uk

[glennhendricks]

I was wrong, Thailand instead of India. India is where the Royal Enfields are being made.

Nevertheless, the company, which by then employed more than 650, quickly rebuilt the facility and returned to production by September that year. Furthermore, in 2003, Triumph opened a new manufacturing facility in Thailand. An assembly and painting facility in Thailand was opened in 2006 by Prince Andrew.[9] In September 2008 Triumph announced that they were expanding their Thailand factory to increase capacity to over 130,000 motorcycles.[10]

[Mika]

Asking what I consider “the best styled bikes of the present and the present” is a bit like asking me which of my daughters I like best. Depends on the day and what they have done but truth be told is an impossible question to answer.

Keep in mind the question that started it asks a very broad question. It asks us to make personal selections that are very subjective decisions. By asking which “bikes” it allowed for many possible answers. It did not set up a ‘Concours de E’legence’ 100 point contest. The discussion has already ranged into a FFF discussion and other elements not in the OP and has briefly been hijacked by apples and oranges.

I really like threads like this. Let’s not kill the fun by fighting.

[TandemGeek]

I am really not interested in turning this into a p..ing match with you about whether the Duc or the MV is the better design.

We're not even having the same discussion. It's not about 'which' of these two bikes is a better design, it's a very simple question by the OP:

What do YOU consider to be YOUR picks for the "best styled bikes of the present and the past"?

[Mika]

snipped:
Form doesn't follow function at BMW any more than it does anywhere else.

Assymetrical headlights,


Some of them just go a little more over the top than others; and become poseurs and parodies of themselves.

:rofl

Asymmetric headlights are haunting BMW and may become the bike version of the Bimmer 'double kidney grill' for the non-R bikes. While we were lamenting the Yamaha looking fairing on the S1000RR European magazine and blog sites were running articles and having heated debates because the first street prototype pictures leaked of the street version didn't have asymmetric headlights. Form became market demand.

:ha

[Maylett]

I'm a professional designer, not motorcycles, but other things. Thirty years in this profession tells me that most of the things most people care about have little to do with design, and more to do with aesthetics as it relates to personal taste.

I personally subscribe to the Bauhaus philosophy (German, of course) of form following function and less being more. This is one reason that I don't care for, say, Harley-Davidsons. With them, it's all about function following form and a reluctance to adapt their bikes to changing technologies and changing times for the sake of preserving a salable image that appeals to their (increasingly older) buyer base.

One of the functions of any motorcycle, from the manufactures point of view, is that the bike must sell. To do this, they have to build well-engineered motorcycles, that ride well, are reliable and function the way their target buyers expect. Not secondary to this is the form (styling) that the buyer expects. Potential buyers rate aesthetics very highly on their list of priorities, and any automotive manufacturer places this very highly on what they pay attention to, so in that sense it becomes a matter of function for the manufacturers.

As was mentioned earlier, there are general societal trends regarding styling and aesthetics. The designer has to place him or herself out front of these trends just a bit in order to steer them in a direction that will drive the trends toward his or her company's products while maintaining the functional, manufacturing and cost-effectiveness priorities required by the manufacturer.

Many of the so-called "overstyled" motorcycles are that way because designers have pushed them there in order to take advantage of younger (and future) buyers' eagerness to embrace new and aggressive liquid designs made possible by changing technologies. Also driving this, however, are aerodynamics, new production techniques, weight reduction, materials, safety, and cost efficiencies obtained through molded polymers, carbon composites, alloys, computerization and manufacturing techniques that just weren't possible or practical 10 or 20 years ago.

[jeremell]

looking much like a Mazda Miata

Wow, dude! A Miata? You really are a hot rodder!

[jamesdunn]

Wow, dude! A Miata? You really are a hot rodder!
The Miata is Mazda's version of the Lotus Elan, considered by many to be a trend setter and I think it was, as it has inspired so many imitations; not just the Miata.
As to my personal cars I tend toward Porsches which I do not currently own. The "grunt" of a muscle car with more top end; able to run with the exotics and still function as a everyday driver. Try that with a Lamborgini!

Motorcycles are a lot cheaper though, and will give a lot more bang for the buck. There are a bunch of bikes out there that will leave many high priced sports cars for dead in a" race for the redline".