Reality check...reliability myth debunked.

[wellsvilleangus]

My friends...enough is enough.

When a BMW is in perfect condition its a perfect bike, period. That's just not the case way too often. I've heard all the apologists and the rally rats mired in denial and past glory. For many of us the stories ring hollow and the bragging has become just noise. BMW has failed us as they cheapen their product, live off reputation, and blame the rider for their bikes failing.

My 2001 K1200LT has had a broken front shock, failed speedometer, rear drive rebuilt three times, a blown rear seal and ruined clutch, and a whole list of small cosmetic and mechanical problems. I've spent almost enough to buy a new V-Strom. My experience with dealers has been inconsistent at best, often with a lack of competence and quite limited concern for the brand's reputation.

I realize MOA is trying to address the growing disenchantment, but we need to somehow do more. What about a specific site (forum) to register a history of repairs, grade the quality of dealer response, and bring all of the complaints, anger, and bitching into focus? Quantify the problems and stop allowing the company and dealers to claim ancedotes and personal experiences are rare and self induced. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

BMW, shame on you. :stick

[riderR1150GSAdv]

I see your point, but at the same time one can fully expect that anything mechanical will eventually break, even a BMW. The only way to get a major manufacturer to do a recall is if NHTSA gets enough complaints from the public.
Your point has been brought up before by others and I don't think MOA was interested then...:dunno

Personally I have 67K miles on my GS and so far it has been great. I expect my FD bearing to break eventually, because I ride a lot of rough stuff. I'll deal with that when the time comes, or I may even replace it before my trip this summer as a preemptive part of maintenance..
This is really all any rider can do with their bike regardless of brand.

[Kayseventyfive]

I may even replace it before my trip this summer as a preemptive part of maintenance..
This is really all any rider can do with their bike regardless of brand.

That is really where most manufacturers want you to be. They live or die on new sales, not satisfied owners of reliable machinery.

The whole marketing thing is based on getting you to buy new often, not to buy a good reliable product you will keep.

More and more motorcycle ads are pushing fashion, style and image than quality and durability.

[osbornk]

My friends...enough is enough.

When a BMW is in perfect condition its a perfect bike, period. That's just not the case way too often. I've heard all the apologists and the rally rats mired in denial and past glory. For many of us the stories ring hollow and the bragging has become just noise. BMW has failed us as they cheapen their product, live off reputation, and blame the rider for their bikes failing.

My 2001 K1200LT has had a broken front shock, failed speedometer, rear drive rebuilt three times, a blown rear seal and ruined clutch, and a whole list of small cosmetic and mechanical problems. I've spent almost enough to buy a new V-Strom. My experience with dealers has been inconsistent at best, often with a lack of competence and quite limited concern for the brand's reputation.

I realize MOA is trying to address the growing disenchantment, but we need to somehow do more. What about a specific site (forum) to register a history of repairs, grade the quality of dealer response, and bring all of the complaints, anger, and bitching into focus? Quantify the problems and stop allowing the company and dealers to claim ancedotes and personal experiences are rare and self induced. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

BMW, shame on you. :stick

I don't ride a BMW because they are more reliable than other brands. Mine have been reliable but no more so than the Japanese bikes I have owned. I ride them because they are unique but more importantly, because I can get parts for them. When my Hondas and Suzuki got a little age on them, I couldn't get parts for them that I needed. The frequent changes made in them makes it almost impossible for them to keep the parts stocked. I always had to order Honda and Suzuki parts if they were available and none were ever in stock. I needed a coil for a ten year old Honda and I finally found one at a Junk Yard in Virginia Beach. I've always been able to get the parts I need for my 23 year old R80 and they are sometimes in stock at my small dealership.

[PGlaves]

My last main bike was a K75 that went 370,000 miles without significant repairs. My current main bike is an R1150R that is just 500 miles short of 100,000 miles with no significant repairs. Voni's R1100RS is at 345,000 with no repairs I consider to be other than normal wear except a broken cam chain guide. Her R1100RSL was sold at 175,000 miles with no significanat repairs, and her R1100S now has about 75,000 miles with virtually no repairs whatsoever. I'm satisfied with the reliability we've gotten from our BMWs. They aren't perfect but they aren't bad either.

[Kayseventyfive]

As with so many others, I value my K for its smoothness and reliability.

I have a suspicion that the later BMWs are not as reliable, but have no data to back it up. Just an impression I get from friends and acquaintances. Some of this may be not be accurate, as old bike guys are like cultists.

[osbornk]

As with so many others, I value my K for its smoothness and reliability.

I have a suspicion that the later BMWs are not as reliable, but have no data to back it up. Just an impression I get from friends and acquaintances. Some of this may be not be accurate, as old bike guys are like cultists.

I suspect a lot of it is the changing expectations for products of all kinds. Back in the "good old days", we hoped the engine in our car would last 100,000 miles. Now, we expect our spark plugs to last at least that long. We complain about thngs happening to our motorcycles today at miles that we never dreamed of reaching in the "good old days". People considered a motorcycle high miles if it had 20,000 miles on it. They died from lack of use rather than from use.

[Kayseventyfive]

We complain about thngs happening to our motorcycles today at miles that we never dreamed of reaching in the "good old days". People considered a motorcycle high miles if it had 20,000 miles on it.

I would agree with you, in a general sense. But...................BMWs of the past have always been extraordinarily reliable, and their riders have always been mile-eaters.

Going back to the late fifties, the real mile-eaters were almost exclusively BMW riders. My quick recollection is that the Gold Wing was the first reliable and comfortable non-BMW mile-eater. Well, except for that alternator. :(

.

[DarrylRi]

I would agree with you, in a general sense. But...................BMWs of the past have always been extraordinarily reliable, and their riders have always been mile-eaters.

Going back to the late fifties, the real mile-eaters were almost exclusively BMW riders. My quick recollection is that the Gold Wing was the first reliable and comfortable non-BMW mile-eater. Well, except for that alternator. :(

.

Every bike ever made has got its weaknesses.

The BMWs the '50s and '60s you so fondly remember need a bottom end service in the general neighborhood of 50k miles -- yes, I know there are a few that have gone further, but they are the exceptions -- because the motor has no real oil filter and the gunk eventually chokes off the flow of oil to the big end bearings. (BTW, there's no way to tell how far along this is without taking out the crank.) There was also a period in the mid 60s when the head castings on the R60 and R50 weren't stable and would lose spark plug inserts and valve seats.

My '61 R60/2 has almost 84k miles on it; I hope to turn it over eventually. But the motor has been completely apart twice (that I know of). The OP is unhappy about having to perform far less extreme work on his bike; his expectations for "reliability" these days are much higher.

50k miles out of a motorcycle at that time was simply phenomenal, and that's why the high mileage people rode them. That's like getting 150k miles or more out of a bike now.

It's also the case that my R60, on a good day, puts out 30hp; it has roughly 3" of suspension travel; and it has drum brakes. Now, you get bikes that have 4 times the horsepower, twice the suspension travel with more adjustability, and at least 4 times the braking power with ABS and traction control. And the bikes get roughly the same gas mileage.

Is BMW cheapening the product? Maybe, but it's hard for me to see it.

[bikerfish1100]

I would agree with you, in a general sense. But...................BMWs of the past have always been extraordinarily reliable, and their riders have always been mile-eaters.

Going back to the late fifties, the real mile-eaters were almost exclusively BMW riders. My quick recollection is that the Gold Wing was the first reliable and comfortable non-BMW mile-eater. Well, except for that alternator. :(

.


Darryl hit some of the issue of perspective; the idea that compared to Harley, that called for new pistons at around 18K, or Triumph that would need a new upper at similar mileage, a BMW that went 2-3 times that far WAS incredibly reliable. Not in absolute terms, just relatively speaking.
Another important factor to remember is that with the advent of the interweb, the old adage about "bad news travels fast" has taken on an entirely new meaning. Now we hear about every single issue that every person's bike has, and after years of increasing reliability of every mechanical and electrical product, we now expect none of it. Years (decades) ago, if you met someone who rode, that in itself was enough of an unusual occurrence, but to have that person share the history of every nut and bolt they had replaced on their bike was not going to happen.

[SCQTT]

When a BMW is in perfect condition its a perfect bike, period.

They can be a good tool, but if you step away from the kool-aid and roundel you will find that many other manufacturers beat them heads up on all levels (this is coming from a guy with 6 BMWs in his garage)

It is of upmost importance to have a great dealer if you own anything of theirs made in the last 20 years. Anything less is shooting pool with a rope.

Enlisting the MOA to help solve this problem is........well.......I can not think of a great analogy at this time, but it is not a good idea. The MOA needs to have a very friendly relationship with BMW corporate.

The best thing to do is tell them how you feel with your wallet.

[PGlaves]

They can be a good tool, but if you step away from the kool-aid and roundel you will find that many other manufacturers beat them heads up on all levels (this is coming from a guy with 6 BMWs in his garage)



Well - "many manufacturers beat them heads up on all levels" is a bit strong in my opinion. Honda has built a few models with long term reliability, and many more models that are throw away bikes. Yamaha has a gem in the FJR but .... I hear the Vstrom(s) are pretty fair bikes - but I'm waiting to hear about a 250K one and how it fared.

After that the list of "many" gets awful short folks. Awful short.

[dpryan]

As with so many others, I value my K for its smoothness and reliability.

I have a suspicion that the later BMWs are not as reliable, but have no data to back it up. Just an impression I get from friends and acquaintances. Some of this may be not be accurate, as old bike guys are like cultists.

I've gotten the impression that the older bikes are more reliable, too, due in some part to other comments and threads on the MOA forum over the years.

Whether that's true or not, I'm more attracted in general to something that is simple and basic, and is cheaper and easier to maintain. I purchased my K and Concours for pretty much those reasons. The Connie has been a pleasure to own and ride, and although I've only had the RT a year, I'm pretty confident it will follow suit.

The new ones (of either brand) sure look nice, but I'm not tempted in the least.

[ragtoplvr]

Weight also figures into this. BMW takes a lot of steps to make their Boxer touring bikes relatively light for what they are. They do weigh less than a FJR, C1400, or Honda ST. At times this means some components such as the crown bearing, have very little tolerance for overloading, or are perhaps a little touchy on adjustment. The spline on the clutch also suffers from being very small. OTH, not machining parts accurately like the transmission housing, there is absolutely completely no excuse for that, and BMW should fix every one on good will. Then find who it was that designed the tooling, and who was responsible for the QC and fire them. I might even suggest they use real fire. Another good question is why, to this day, the transmission input shaft does not extend all the way thru the clutch hub. I want a good engineering reason why. Otherwise I suspect is was a FU, and someone is too stubborn to admit it and fix it (I have worked with some German engineers) . That person is another real fire candidate.

My opinion, and worth what you paid for it.

Rod

[deilenberger]

Since this topic has widely diverged from a K specific topic, I'm moving it off to the campfire, where more members will get to see it and perhaps comment.

FWIW - I've found the more recently made the BMW was - the more reliable it's been for me.

My R65 could be relied on to need carb balancing every 2,000 miles or so, to dribble gas on my toes every so often and to slowly dribble oil from various parts of the engine.

The K100RT that replaced it would run long miles - without much trouble except perishing rubber bits, a flaky instrument cluster and unbearable heat. It also needed various seals and new headlight switches.

The K75S that followed it only seemed to need replacement seals once in a while and fixes from former owners "fixes" and modifications.

The R1150RS that was next needed about nothing except taking care of delayed maintenance from former owners.

And the R1200R that I'm currently riding has needed nothing. The biggest warranty claim I've made on it was for 1 5mm screw that fell out of a sidebag. It did receive a new EWS antenna (the old one was till fine..) and a recall for a brake line (which was also fine..) but so far - nothing has broken or leaked or given me a moments concern on this bike. It's ready for any trip I care to take at any time.

OK - moving the thread. Please keep your hands and feet inside the car for your safety and protection, and HANG ON...

Whooooooooooooossssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhh..

[AKBeemer]

Cam,

I suspect you could have found a BMW owner that was as unhappy as you are with the reliability of his bike in 1959, 1969, 1979... etc. There are always problem machines in any brand's line-up. The forum for other brands have folks that like you are dissatified. Gold Wing, FJR, ST1300 and Concurs; all have their hanger queens.

[riderR1150GSAdv]

That is really where most manufacturers want you to be. They live or die on new sales, not satisfied owners of reliable machinery.

The whole marketing thing is based on getting you to buy new often, not to buy a good reliable product you will keep.

More and more motorcycle ads are pushing fashion, style and image than quality and durability.

Your last point is very valid and in the case of BMW, they now have a 'lifestyle' section rather than calling it clothing or riding gear department....
For this you can thank the marketing geniuses at Harley Davidson. This company knows how to sell and all other manufacturers had to follow suit or lose sales.
IMHO 'lifestyle' is a bit over the top, but a lot of folks are attracted to that and that is fine too.

[osbornk]

That is really where most manufacturers want you to be. They live or die on new sales, not satisfied owners of reliable machinery.

The whole marketing thing is based on getting you to buy new often, not to buy a good reliable product you will keep.

But the smart manufacturers build reliable machinery. The Honda Accord and Toyota Camry are not the top selling cars because of their looks or performance. They are bland,vanilla and very reliable. They have nothing that can compete in performance with a Corvette, Viper, Shelby Mustang, etc. but they are successful with the American named car manufacturers in the dumper and two that look like they are heading for bankruptcy.

High income consumers who buy vehicles for status or high performance don't care as much about reliability as the mainstream consumer. Mercedes and other European high performance manufacturers do not sell based on reliability and are among the less reliable vehicles you can buy. Their market share is also not very high.

[lkchris]

I would agree with you, in a general sense. But...................BMWs of the past have always been extraordinarily reliable, and their riders have always been mile-eaters.

This is an example of "the older we get the better we were."

ANYTHING with a points ignition cannot be considered reliable.

The maintenance requirements of the old bikes were stupendous compared to the latest stuff.

But, they didn't have 125 hp, either, so no wonder the gears lasted.

As another poster noted, you own BMWs for the fun factor. BMW cars, for example, can easily be considered the world's least reliable, but their sales are just fine, thank you.

[bikerfish1100]

BMW cars, for example, can easily be considered the world's least reliable, but their sales are just fine, thank you.


i would not agree with that statement, in the least. true, some models, like the 7 series, can be quite expensive to maintain, but these cars will easily last 200-300,000 miles, and will still outperform a new American vehicle. maintenance costs may be high, but mostly due to their longevity, aso you are not just throwing it away at 140,000 miles or less.

[osbornk]

i would not agree with that statement, in the least. true, some models, like the 7 series, can be quite expensive to maintain, but these cars will easily last 200-300,000 miles, and will still outperform a new American vehicle. maintenance costs may be high, but mostly due to their longevity, aso you are not just throwing it away at 140,000 miles or less.

But you spend enough on maintenance to buy a couple of American cars in the process (not counting the two or three nice American cars the initial cost of the BMW sets you back).

[bikerfish1100]

But you spend enough on maintenance to buy a couple of American cars in the process (not counting the two or three nice American cars the initial cost of the BMW sets you back).

really? are you sure?
50,000 miles on a 2001 325i wagon. we've spent under $700 on general maintenance (car purchased with 13K miles in 2004), no repairs. gets mid-30's, and will flat out embarrass any 'mericun car- superior comfort, handling, power, with all the utility of a wagon. paid around $24K- came with all the bells and whistles, like 'lectric leather seats, HID lighting, 5 speed, cruise, killer CD/FM/AM Harmon-Kardon stereo with steering wheel controls, sunroof, etc, etc.
touch THAT with your Buick/Chevy/Ford!

[jamesdunn]

The short answer is that the BMW's I've owned have been reliable. Wear items of course need to be replaced and some riders do not keep up with the maintenance as required and I think this is key. Pauls' Glaves experience is , I think more reflective of the BMW owner motorcycle experience if a bike is maintained and cared for. That is, they will go for a whole lot of miles. (Hundreds of thousands of miles in Paul and Voni's case.)

I cannot speak to the newer bikes as the newest I own is a '94 R1100RSL (Reliable!). I love that bike but really love the simplicity of the airheads and I know they'll go the distance. I own a '78 R100RS I'd ride to the west or east coast tomorrow without fear of a breakdown. I owned two K bikes as well, a '87 K75T and a '92 K75S; both reliable and though not perfect they never let me down.

Think I'll trust BMW's for now. The new bikes? Frankly, they are too expensive. And I have heard some negative statements about reliability. This does concern me.

[osbornk]

really? are you sure?
50,000 miles on a 2001 325i wagon. we've spent under $700 on general maintenance (car purchased with 13K miles in 2004), no repairs. gets mid-30's, and will flat out embarrass any 'mericun car- superior comfort, handling, power, with all the utility of a wagon. paid around $24K- came with all the bells and whistles, like 'lectric leather seats, HID lighting, 5 speed, cruise, killer CD/FM/AM Harmon-Kardon stereo with steering wheel controls, sunroof, etc, etc.
touch THAT with your Buick/Chevy/Ford!

My answer was regarding a 7 series car driven 200,000-300,000 miles and not your example. I bought my 08 Impala used last November for $11,800. The owners manual calls for oil changes only until the need to replace the air filter at 50,000 miles. Then, other than oil changes you don't do anything until 100,000 miles when you change the plugs and air filter again. I would rather drive the much nicer BMW like you have rather than my vanilla Chevy but the cost benefit analysis doesn't work for me (that darned Economics degree). Being retired, I drive an Chevy so I can ride my BMWs. Small price to pay in my estimation.

But the main point is that even if the cost of ownership is high, people of adequate means feel it is worth the expense and maybe less reliability to drive a car with the superior performance and prestige of a European luxury car.

[StevieWonder]

FWIW, my observations follow.

I used to own/operate a auto repair shop for high line German cars (BMW, Porsche, Audi and Mercedes) and we would take in a Rolls or Ferrari or a Volvo if we had to. No matter how great the car ... they do break for a wide variety of reasons ranging from poor preventative maintenance to poor design to owner abuse to bad manufacturing. It's a fact that if you make enough of anything, no matter how great the product, you'll eventually build a lemon. Knowing lots of BMW owners for many years, I'd say your bike sounds like a lemon. Whether it's your fault, BMW's fault, or a shared responsibility, I can't say. I would say your experience is not the norm.

I would also express my agreement with the comment on Japanese bikes. They are very well built, extremely reliable and inordinately difficult to find parts for once they are more than about 5 or 6 yrs old. It's nice to have the relief of a Honda dealer every few hundred miles and disappointing to find that you'll have to order the parts.

[88bmwJeff]

My experience has been with vehicles is that the worst thing you can do is have poor maintenance. Some of the most expensive repair jobs I've had to do in the past was due to poor wrenching by the previous mechanic. With that said, I have to wonder why you needed the final drive repaired not once, not twice, but three times. I don't know what the mileage is on the bike, but that seems more like the workmanship of the mechanic than of BMW. However, it does somewhat reflect on BMW. For example, I will not own a VW or Nissan since the local dealer (same ownership) is absolutely inept. Life's too short to put up with that crap.

I have to agree that everything mass produced will have lemons. I have seen Toyota's and Honda's with big signs on them saying they were lemons. Yet, Honda and Toyota make some of the most reliable cars on the road.

On side note: I've owned American cars, Japanese cars, and German cars. Both standard and luxury models. Although the American cars may have been slightly less reliable, I wouldn't say they were more expensive to own. The cost of repairs and maintenance was the least expensive on the American cars compared to the Japanese or German cars.