Oil filter similarity

[Jeff488]

At the risk of starting an uncontrolled reaction and FWIW, I replaced a Bosch filter in my RT this week with the Purolator L10241.
The metal plate in each which has the threaded hole in the center, surrounded by small bean shaped holes(base), were identical; even to the numbers stamped on the base. I think they are 3 4 16 L.

Hmmmm.:scratch

The Purolator was about $3.50 at Advance Auto Parts.

[Rich]

Does it knock? :laugh

[Jeff488]

Does it knock? :laugh

??

[Rich]

??

Just pokin a little fun at you. I'm one of those that wouldn't even consider trying a non-BMW filter in my bike. I'd be too paranoid.

[ScottGlover]

I ride a '95 R1100GS, I've had the bike since 1999 and I've used quite a few Non-BMW filters with out a hitch. I cross referenced the size with Penzoil, Wix, K & N, Fram, Puraltor and even Bosch. Chances are they'er probably made in the same factory. I like to use the ones that have a place to put a socket on to remove them. I have put 53,000 miles on it in all sorts of conditions. :thumb

[PGlaves]

I ride a '95 R1100GS, I've had the bike since 1999 and I've used quite a few Non-BMW filters with out a hitch. I cross referenced the size with Penzoil, Wix, K & N, Fram, Puraltor and even Bosch. Chances are they'er probably made in the same factory. I like to use the ones that have a place to put a socket on to remove them. I have put 53,000 miles on it in all sorts of conditions. :thumb

I doubt the ones with a hex lug were made in the same factory as the OEM filters.

But BMW gets their filters from somebody - to their specs as to fitment, bypass pressure etc.

The trick is to figure out which ones just fit and which ones are truly correct. And since detailed published specs are lacking we are doing a lot of guessing.

[Jeff488]

The trick is to figure out which ones just fit and which ones are truly correct. And since detailed published specs are lacking we are doing a lot of guessing.

Which is why I felt pretty good about using the Purolator when I saw those identical details.

[110164]

But BMW gets their filters from somebody - to their specs as to fitment, bypass pressure etc.


I use either OEM from my local dealer or Bosch from Beemberboneyard on my 03 R1150R. I haven't had any problems with these filters, and would be hesitant to use my trusty steed as a science experiment with a $3 filter.

Paul, do you use non-OEM filters?

[nhbmw]

I doubt the ones with a hex lug were made in the same factory as the OEM filters.

But BMW gets their filters from somebody - to their specs as to fitment, bypass pressure etc.

The trick is to figure out which ones just fit and which ones are truly correct. And since detailed published specs are lacking we are doing a lot of guessing.


What you said .....

Bypass pressure, resistance to 'channeling', particle capture size -- there are lots of criteria. Why do owners of $15000+ bikes even *dream* of risking the engine to save a few bucks on a filter every 6k miles? The aftermarket ones that 'fit' might do a good job, but real engineering specs are few.

I'd rather buy an OEM filter and do my guessing on how to throw money away on the lottery. (Which I don't)

[winkwm]

Is there a difference between car and bike filter requirements? If you go to buy an oil filter for a car the books list a multitude of filters, are bike oil filter requirements more stringent? Seems to me the critical point would be that you change your oil at required intervals and maybe more often if using lower priced/quality filters. :dunno

[35634]

$3 filters seem to work fine on $30-40k cars. The cost difference is driven by marketing,
not materials or engineering.

[PGlaves]

$3 filters seem to work fine on $30-40k cars. The cost difference is driven by marketing,
not materials or engineering.

I agree - if there is a manufacturer who builds a filter with the thread fittment, equivilent fitration media, bypass pressure specs, etc. in sufficient volume to accrue the economies of scale that allow the $3 price point. As soon as you find it please let us all know so we can buy them.

p.s. It isn't Fram

[110164]

$3 filters seem to work fine on $30-40k cars.

Now we're into Monty Python territory. If there is anyone out there that has dropped 40 grand on a motor and does their own oil change with a $3 oil filter, please stand up.

I hear those brown basket style coffee filters work just as well.

Good grief.

[osbornk]

$3 filters seem to work fine on $30-40k cars. The cost difference is driven by marketing, not materials or engineering.

I agree. What makes you think you're getting the same filter every time you get an OEM filter. You could get a different manufacturer each time you get your OEM filter. I feel sure they have different suppliers bid to supply the filters based on their specifications and buy the ones that are priced the best. Almost everything you buy OEM is based on the lowest bid. It hurt last summer when I repalced a Chinese made bearing with a Chinese bearing on my John Deere. BMW didn't contract out the engine on one of their bikes to China because of quality, it was because of price. They do what they have to do to make their product affordable.

[breyfogle]

Why do owners of $15000+ bikes even *dream* of risking the engine to save a few bucks on a filter every 6k miles?

We're saving up for a tranny rebuild or a new final drive .....

[Acejones]

$3 filters seem to work fine on $30-40k cars. The cost difference is driven by marketing,
not materials or engineering.

I'll bet you folks buy generic drugs too, as well as all kinds of "over the counter" health products and you have no clue where that stuff comes from. Then you put that stuff in your "priceless " body. Why ?

[winkwm]

[QUOTE=110164;446118]Now we're into Monty Python territory. If there is anyone out there that has dropped 40 grand on a motor and does their own oil change with a $3 oil filter, please stand up.

No but I'll bet they are taking there cars to the likes of Jiffy Lube or other fast lube places and you can bet the fast lube business are not installing the high cost filters. I think IMHO that frequency of change is more important than type of filter. When is the last time you heard that the use of non manufacture oil filter voided the warranty? I believe it all comes down to piece of mind. If you feel safer using a high priced BMW filter then by all means do so. People will pay almost anything for peace of mind. I know because I sell it everyday.

[osbornk]

I'll bet you folks buy generic drugs too, as well as all kinds of "over the counter" health products and you have no clue where that stuff comes from. Then you put that stuff in your "priceless " body. Why ?

Darn right I buy generic drugs. How do you know where the brand name drugs come from? My insurance won't pay for a brand name if a generic is available and they foot the bill if the generic doesn't work.

My aunt worked for a company that made a product that was sold to many different companies. Her job was to put the labels on the finished product. The labels ran from the generic store brands to the very high end brands. The only difference was the label.

[Acejones]

Darn right I buy generic drugs. How do you know where the brand name drugs come from? My insurance won't pay for a brand name if a generic is available and they foot the bill if the generic doesn't work.

My aunt worked for a company that made a product that was sold to many different companies. Her job was to put the labels on the finished product. The labels ran from the generic store brands to the very high end brands. The only difference was the label.

And exactly what was that product ?

[35634]

Now we're into Monty Python territory. If there is anyone out there that has dropped 40 grand on a motor and does their own oil change with a $3 oil filter, please stand up.

I hear those brown basket style coffee filters work just as well.

Good grief.
Yeah, I drive a Jetta, it has the 20V Turbo engine that is probably as demanding any on
it's oil filter, and I get fram filters 2 for $5 on sale. The bike gets AC Delco PF-53's, since
fram started putting the grippy stuff on their filters. The K has 180K + on it now, maybe
I'll try the coffee filters if I can find one with the right bypass valve pressure :D

[Mr. Frank]

The Mahle OC91 filter has the same BMW part number as the OEM BMW oil filter. They run about $10.

[dbrick]

When is the last time you heard that the use of non manufacture oil filter voided the warranty?

By BMWNA. About a month ago, on this board, for this same reason.

The chance that a manufacturer will use the non-spec filter as an excuse to deny a warranty claim is more than nominal, and not I think a good risk while the bike's in warranty. However, I agree that the chance of engine damage from a non-OEM filter is vanishingly small, and I'm fine using them after the warranty's expired.

[osbornk]

By BMWNA? About a month ago, on this board, for this same reason.

The chance that a manufacturer will use the non-spec filter as an excuse to deny a warranty claim is more than nominal, and not I think a good risk while the bike's in warranty. However, I agree that the chance of engine damage from a non-OEM filter is vanishingly small, and I'm fine using them after the warranty's expired.

They can deny the warranty if the filter does not meet specs and they can show that the filter caused the problem but if the filter meets the specs, it is against Federal law to deny coverage.

[PGlaves]

They can deny the warranty if the filter does not meet specs and they can show that the filter caused the problem but if the filter meets the specs, it is against Federal law to deny coverage.

True - but do you know the "specs." I don't, and I've looked. Screwing on doesn't mean it meets specs. I'm sure Frank is safe with the Mahle that bears the exact markings of the OEM filter - meaning that they are a supplier. Safe buy. Try that with a Fram, Sureflow, or whatever - not me! In warranty or out. I like it when our engines go 350K or more without teardown and I don't take risks in that regard.

[SIBUD]

Oil filters are like religion, you are either a true believer or you are not.

[Bohan]

I have been using the SuperTech filter lately. Fittment is perfect, but I don't know if it provides equivalent fitration media, bypass pressure specs, etc. Good point; I need to do some research. I do change it every 3000 miles, though. Oil every 6000 miles.

The SuperTech costs less than $2.50 at WalMart.

[dbrick]

They can deny the warranty if the filter does not meet specs and they can show that the filter caused the problem but if the filter meets the specs, it is against Federal law to deny coverage.

Of course it's against federal law, we all know that. But it isn't up to the manufacturer to say anyhing at all beyond "Non-spec filter, no coverage." Then it's up to the consumer, if he has the stomach for it, to find a tribologist and a mechanic, get expert opinions, and sue. Most consumers don't do this.

It may be unfair, but that's the way it is.

[Andy VH]

Filtration falls into a lot more than simple fitup. Many factors really matter:
1. Filter element media, the actual "holes" through the filter media, in microns of an inch. 1 micron is .000039". Two filters can have the exact same micron rating, but the element material actually matters as far as how those tiny holes "line up" or don't line up to retain contaminants. Its a quality aspect of the element.
2. The type of filter media, whether is cellulose (paper) or fiberglas, or polyetheylene (not likely).
3. The bypass capability of the filter element, such as when it starts to actually bypass the filter material and simply sends the oil right on past with no filtration. Two filters with the same element rating in microns can vary significantly here. A cheapo filter may "bypass" much ealier than is right for the bike. A quality filter will maintain its filtering capability much longer almost to the point of a clogged element (which is actually when a filter reaches peak filtration capability).
4. The back pressure caused by the filter itself. A filter with higher than spec back pressure can actually cause pump starvation issues (NOT good for pump wear).
5. Filter length. A longer filter sounds great becaue it has more area inside for more filter element. Not good though if the longer element causes higher back pressure or pump starvation.

[kantuckid]

Filtration falls into a lot more than simple fitup. Many factors really matter:
1. Filter element media, the actual "holes" through the filter media, in microns of an inch. 1 micron is .000039". Two filters can have the exact same micron rating, but the eement material actually matters as far as how those tiny holes "line up" or don't line up to retain contaminants.
2. The type of filter media, whether is cellulose (paper) or fiberglas, or polyetheylene (not likely).
3. The bybass capability of the filter element, such as when it starts to actually bypass the filter material and simply sends the oil right on past with no filtration. Two filters with the same element rating in microns can vary significantly here. A cheapo filter may "bypass" much ealier than is right for the bike. A quality filter will maintain its filtering capability much longer almost to the point of a clogged element (which is actually when a filter reaches peak filtration capability).
4. The back pressure caused by the filter itself. A filter with higher than spec back pressure can actually cause pump starvation issues (NOT good for pump wear).
5. Filter length. A longer filter sound great becaue it has more area inside for more filter element. Not good though if the longer element causes higher back pressure or pump starvation.

I see that your an engineer, so here's the question:Please explain how your #5 above is an issue. I use larger filters on my Toyota Tundra, as there are plenty out there that match up to OEM and are larger plus the space for them to stick out is huge.I see it as an opportunity to gain filtration surface area for sometimes the same price and to gain a small bit of oil capacity without sacrifice? I have been thinking that once the filter cavity is full that life goes on as usual for the oil pump,etc.. I have seen the Amsoil setups that utilize two filters and I think they are in series hookup. There are other dual filter setups out there as well. In a similar thought,if one were to use a larger fuel filter would it negatively affect fuel delivery?
P.S.,I'll admit to being a greasy guy, not an engineer, plus all three of my sons are engineers and it is fun to take a shot at engineers anyway, as I learned while working side by side with them on the job. The fact that the buck stopped with them and not the mechanics made it all the merrier!:dunno

[Andy VH]

Geez, what gave away that I might be an engineer? Oh, and I respect and learn a lot from the "greasy guys". Yeah, I have worked for 25+ plus years as a degreed engineer, but now I'm in sales, so take that for what its worth. However, I have always been a hands-on engineer versus a desk/theory engineer and I enjoy getting my hands dirty. Can't say that for a lot of engineers these days. Many of them can't seem to figure out the operative end of a screwdriver.

Anyway. I understand your question exactly. I too have thought "why not just get a much longer spin-on filter for my R1100RS?" More filter element. More filtration. More miles to put on the bike before the filter is loaded. More oil capacity (a larger volume oil filter acts like a little tank). More cooling at the filter if it hangs down out of the engine cavity. Easier to grab and change out, don't need the special filter can socket tool.

But, any filter element will produce a certain amount of back-pressure (resistance to fluid flow through the filter element). For a given square inches of element, more of it will produce more back pressure (or pressure drop across the filter). If we knew the allowable value for pressure drop across the filter from BMW, and use a filter that operates in that range, the size/length of the filter itself means little. If I could match those values I would use a longer filter.

The oilheads use two oil pumps (one for lube, one for cooling). And both draw oil from the sump, which is after the oil filter. So at worst, a filter with greater back pressure "may" reduce flow into the pumps, known as cavitation (not good). But I can't say that for certain. Just a caution that it may not be as simple as installing a longer filter. Plus, don't assume the filtration system of a Toyota Tundra is equivalent to a BMW motorcycle engine. A longer/larger filter on a cycle engine may have different results than doing the same on a MUCH slower revving car/truck engine, which uses much different bearing systems than does a cycle engine. Motorcycles put a LOT more strain of the oil and lubrication systems.

Always remember, engineers don't make "mistakes", only "revisions".

I have some good engnineer jokes also.

[enfoman]

[QUOTE=

Always remember, engineers don't make "mistakes", only "revisions".

I have some good engnineer jokes also.[/QUOTE]

Love to hear some of them!

Bob:blah :ear

[SIBUD]

How good does a filter have to be when it is changed every 3,000 miles?

Anyone here send their oil off to a lab with each oil change? If so, have you used different filters to see if one is better than another at 3,000 miles.

While there is a lot of speculation, there seems to be little to no empirical evidence to support the claims that one filter is better than another?

Just wondering.

[kantuckid]

Andy,its called your "public profile" and you said you are one! Don't change it ,because it gives us a target for techish threads. Nothing like an engineer to try and make look foolish,HA! :dance Yes, without oil analysis your better to play safe. On my Tundra the oil pressure gauge is of the newer idiot type that really don't measure much of anything, so maybe I need to go back to the spec filters? I have participated in these filter threads before, but I'll say it again now-It is interesting to me that the Kholer engine-15hp on my Woodmizer saw mill, my BMW bike, and my Tundra truck can all use the same filter , if you don't worry about one being a 1/4" longe or that they say BMW on the side,etc., or such they all seem to have the same guts.I use the Mann filters in BMW cars as do many independent shops.

[Andy VH]

I have been using a Purolator Pure Gold PL10241 filter in my 94 RS for over ten years now. Approaching 140k miles and just getting warmed up!

Ok, joke time. A priest, a thief, and an engineer were sentenced to death by guillotine. The priest went first, claiming he was innocent of heresy, and decided to go face up in the stocks to meet his God. When the executioner let the blade go, it got stuck half way down. The executioner exclaimed "you truely are an innocent man of God!", and let him go.

Next up, the thief, charged of robbery. He too claimed he was innocent and chose to go in the stocks face up to meet his God. The blade is released,.....and it gets stuck half way down!. The executioner proclaims "you truely are an innocent man!" and let him go as well.

Finally, the engineer, accused of false calculations (tough times, eh?). But being a heartless calculator, he figured he SHOULD have made that last revision, so what the hey, chose to go face up in the stocks, because well, you know, 50-50. Just before the blade is released, the engineer looks up at the blade, and says "I see the problem!"

[120116]

I have been reading the comments that have been posted concerning oil filters, cost versus quality with some interest. Filters selection is an option for us in maintaining our motorcycles, and the resultant choices may have a direct effect on our future cost of ownership.

A filter is basically some form of media core, contained within a housing that is designed to trap and hold particulate and contaminants from the influent flow and prevent these contaminants from entering the effluent flow. The drop in particulate from the influent to the effluent is the filtration ratio. The filter efficiency is the method of expressing a filters ability to trap and retain contaminants of a given size. The absolute filter rating is the diameter of the largest spherical particle that will pass thru a filter under specific conditions.

Manufacturer’s rate there filters using the normal filtration rating. The normal filtration rating is an arbitrary micrometer value indicated by a filter manufacturer. Due to lack of reproducibility this rating is deprecated. The choice of media used also influences the amount of built in dirt-inherent material that is passed into the effluent stream from the media itself.

The motors that we are running in our bikes rely on fluid film lubrication to prevent wear. This is the presence of a lubricating film sufficient to completely separate two surfaces. So when choosing a filter, it would be prudent to choose a filter that will separate out particulate equal or less than the size of these clearances. Since many filters claim to filter out particles to 1 micron in size (0.000039”) it would seem that this filter would be adequate for our uses.

Now go back to the way manufacturer’s rate there filters. Since there ratings are arbitrary, how do we compare filter to filter? What are the difference between a $3 auto parts store special and a $10 filter? The best thing that you can do is research. There are many outside agencies that have conducted tests of filters, and have published results. In the end it is up to the individual to decide which filter he decides to use. There are big differences in filters, even amongst filter families. Research all of the above attributes for the different brands of filters you are planning on using. There may also be attributes listed for filter life test and filter unloading. Maybe that $3 filter isn’t quite what you want to be using after all. Do the research to make an informed descicion.

[Andy VH]

Just so long that, for those that feel it matters, we all understand that not all 1-micron, or 5-micron or 10-micron "rated" filters are equal.

It would be interesting to know the actual engineering specifications required by BMW for the filters used in their engines.

For a real comparison, we'd have to know:
1. Filter media type
2. Maximum micron rating allowed
3. Filter efficiency rating
4. Size, length, threads, oil seal type
5. Allowable back pressure or pressure drop across the filter

[Rte2Rider]

Some years ago, when I worked for one of the major oil companies, I talked to their lubrication engineers about oils and oil filters (but for cars, not necessarily bikes). One of the things that I was told is that OEM filters generally have tighter specifications for things like filter media bypass (i.e., leakage around the filter media). So... for example, a filter with any significant internal leakage isn't actually filtering anything - the oil just goes the path of least resistance, which is around the media.