Is there less distinction between brands of bikes in terms of appearance?

[rocketman]

Question:
Are modern machines less distinctive between brands in terms of Appearance as compared to machines of the 70’s?

Before responding to the poll please read the qualifications(?) below.
NOTE: I set it to run for 2 weeks then collect the results for this forum and the other one(s) I'm posing this question on after I return from vacation.


Over the past decade or two I’ve been noticing a trend in the auto industry that when one of the top or high end manufacturers comes out with a new body style, within a year or two there are any number of look-a-likes on the road from other car lines. Sometimes the similarity is such that if you can’t see the model or manufacturers name/logo it takes a moment or two to realize that it is not the original manufacturers product, just another copy. After I got back into riding again in 99 after a 12 year hiatus I started to see a similar trend in bikes. Which got me to wondering about how motorcycles have evolved and how my own perceptions influence my views on the changes I’ve seen over the ensuing years. First lets go over a little background and some personal observations/thoughts, keeping in mind they are very general observations as I don’t want to get into to much detail or get hung up in semantics.

When I bought my first new bikes back in the 70’s (a 1970 Suzuki Titan 500, then another new Titan in ’73 and finally a Z1A Kaw 900 in 74) there where basically two types of machines available, dirt bikes and street bikes and that was pretty much it, except for the enduro on/off machines. Back then there weren’t all the specialized categories like we have today, i.e. MX, cruiser, sport, sport touring, touring, etc. Generally speaking, it was basically a choice of brand, displacement and model and within each model about the only factory options were color. If you wanted to customize it you had to buy aftermarket products and either install them yourself or get the dealer to do it, for the most part there really weren’t many, if any, “factory” options. Today, buying bikes has gotten to be a lot more like buying cars, there are many more factory options available, which is great for the consumer, since they care get the bike setup the way they want right from the get-go, all that’s left is get it out of the showroom and ride away. Another nice aspect of that is the fact that everything matches, and the overall effect is much more aesthetically pleasing to the eye, not to mention that it solves many of the problems that plagued the early years of aftermarket customization.

The thing about that though that has me wondering is that while there are a lot more options available as well as more styles of bikes today are they, at least in some ways, losing a certain amount of individual personality or distinctiveness? To me this seems especially prevalent in the cruiser category and to a certain extent the sport and sport touring class. For instance, there have been a number of times Jeanne and I have been out riding and folks have come up to check out Jeanne’s bike (she rides a new Yamaha cruiser) and said they thought at first it was a Harley. Now granted some have been non-riders, but even some other riders we’ve met on the road thought it might be a Harley. In the sport bike and sport touring class that have all the bodywork, from a distance I often have to look harder to identify the brand/model than I did back in the early 70’s when bikes were more bare-boned, so to speak. It just seems to me that back then when most bikes didn’t have all the body work the lines of the different bikes were more distinct so they were more easily recognized. The group of guys I rode with back then used to play a little game where we would try to guess the brand and model of bikes by just the sound, and we were often pretty close if not dead on. Nowadays it seems that a lot of machines not only look similar they even sound similar, at least to me.

And one last observation, since customizing bikes back in the 70’s meant going mostly “aftermarket” it seems that customized machines tended to be more distinct than customized machines today as it comes off the showroom floor with mostly factory options. Now I realize that this difference may well be attributable to the fact that with the older machines still on the road today it’s due to the fact that the machine has most likely seen a number of different owners over the years and as each has applied their modifications guided by their own personal taste, the machines individuality is simply a natural outcome of this long term process. Certainly back in the 70’s for any given model and brand most bikes looked very similar right off the showroom floor, but it seems to me that the difference between brands was more distinct.

So to recap my question is this:
Is it just me and my lack of familiarity with modern machines that makes me feel modern bikes have lost a certain individually/distinction between brands compared to machines of thirty years ago, or is there in fact some legitimacy to this view? And if so, what other factors might be a work here that lend some credence to this idea that they have lost some of that personality from the earlier days? Understand this has nothing to do with quality, brand loyalty, etc, nor is it a question right or wrong, good or bad, and I’m not interested in limiting it to just BMW’s, but rather a general view that includes all brands of road bikes, especially within the various categories as I listed previously. I’m also not referring to the handling or other qualities of the various machines, just the overall “personality” in terms of appearance.

I’m really curious if others share this view, plus I’d be curious to know how the different views points break down as far as the type of bike the person expressing the view prefers riding. In other words, if there are others who share this view, do they, like me, ride mostly older machines and vise versa for those that ride mostly newer machines and does that preference influence their view point? Besides being curious, if I get enough responses, I’m thinking it might make an interesting article for the e-zine I write for which would include a brief summery of my findings from the poll. So lets hear from the masses.

[kbasa]

I think if you look closely at the styling licks of the old days, you'll see that there wasn't a great deal of differentiation between brands. Seat, tank, fenders. The tanks were differently shaped, but that was really about it.

Nowadays, I think we see styling licks on some bikes that differentiate them pretty clearly from each other. Yamaha has a definite look to their sport bikes. BMWs look like nothing else. Honda has the fox eye headlight set up and Ducatis are, well Ducatis.

I find that the cruiser market seems to be more formulaic with everybody cranking out a low, Vtwin powered bike. Even the details seem the same from manufacturer to manufacturer.

Anyway, I think it depends on where you look and what you're looking at.

[James.A]

There are a lot of bikes that look and sound like others, and I think within categories, the distinction has to be "looked for".
For example; Japanese sport bikes,when observed in traffic all look the same. Lots of plastic, squatting rider position. Kbasa's comments are well taken but they all look the same to me.

I think that the stylistic move to body panels is the feature that de-emphasizes the difference between brands. There was a guy the place where I work, who rode a Kawasaki Concourse. At a glance from behind it looked a lot like a K-bike. The front body work served to obscure what would be the obvious difference between the two, i.e. the motor.

I was in the parking lot at K-mart a few days ago with a friend and a Yamaharley went by. 2 tone paint, leather bags with fringe, THE sound... you get the idea. He says to me," was that a real Harley or one of those knock-offs?" Need I say more?

There are exceptions, of course. There is nothing else in the world like a Ducatti. Generally, That which is popular, is replicated.

[Braddog]

While it's true that the UJM's of the 70's were very similar, at least they were distinguishable by looking at the tank, and tank badges/decals. The chrome tank badges on the Japanese cruisers are almost impossible to read, so it's as if the distinction is intentionally left vague. Want a V-Twin cruiser? Doesn't matter, they're all pretty much the same, and it's as though that's the manufacturer's intended result.

Euro bikes are unique from the Japanese bikes, and unique from each other. Kind of a "dare to be different" attiude that isn't focused on mass production, keeping tooling costs as low as possible, etc. Of course, this comes with a higher price tag as well.

So, to answer the question directly, Rocketman, No, it's not just you, the 60's and 70's were when Japanese sales in the U.S. were really ramping up, so competition was heavy. The Japanese manufacturer's needed to distinguish themselves from each other to get the buyers. In today's world, many people, especially young riders, buy according to spec sheet. A good friend of my son was going to buy a Gixxer because at the time, it had the best HP/weight ratio going. Of course, a few months later, the Kawi ZX10R comes out.

[Cliffy777]

Just got the latest Rider and they have some shots of upcoming 2005 models. All the cruisers look zackly the same to me.
Beemers, Ducks, Geese, etc. have a distinctive look which to me makes them attractive.

[JetDoc]

Originally posted by Cliffy777
Just got the latest Rider and they have some shots of upcoming 2005 models. All the cruisers look zackly the same to me.
Beemers, Ducks, Geese, etc. have a distinctive look which to me makes them attractive.

Yea, but look at the new K1200S... a sideways inline 4, just like all the other squid bikes! (can you say Ninjabusa?)

What works, works; and what sells, sells! The top seller in the Cruiser market is Harley-Davidson, so everybody else copies H-D. The hottest sport bike (this week) is a Suzuki, so everybody else copies their design. I think that in the long run, everybody copies from everyone else...

Things haven't changed so much since the 70's. Back in the day, the only way to tell the Motor-Cross race bikes apart was by color... Suzukis were yellow, Kawasakis were green and Hondas were red... Other than that they were all pretty much the same.

[Ironhorsecowboy]

The Japs copied Harley because of marketing share just as the sport bikes look nearly identical. Example: my 23 year old son has a GSXR 1000 because it was the fastest in 02 and now the ZX 10 is king of the hill this week (I think). Most young people his age I talk to hate the look of the boxers and the K bikes don't compete with the Jap sport bikes in HP and speed therefore very little interest from that age group. Maybe the new K1200S will draw some to the brand. I think styling and appearance has improved over the old bikes because you can choose better what type of motorcycle you want due to the many makes and models available from so many manufacturers.

[DarrylRi]

Ok, look at this and make up your mind. Here are 35 years of BMWs:

http://darryl.crafty-fox.com/mcpics/2003/surfcitytechday/oldbeemers_sm.jpg

[dlearl476]

Daryl, you suck! (just kidding, what a great collection) More later.

Rocketman, I think you need a new class: "Nothing's Changed"

I think brands are just as distinctive now as they were 20-30-50 years ago. Case in point. 90% of the world can't tell the difference between Mozart and Beethoven, Kandinsky and Pollock, or a Degas and a Renoir. It's only people who are interested in these things that can.

To the untrained eye, all 70's bikes look the same. Tube frame, painted tank, chrome or alloy fenders, etc. Kawis in particualar copied Triumphs. Same today. There is a certain aspect of all bikes that is the same. The subtle differences are "Design Trends".

Then as now, design followed a "trickle down" theories. Concieved by the Italians, copied by the British, then mass produced by the Japanese. The "new" Japanese bikes look just like the 8 (?) year old Aprilias, and my '99 Triumph looks like a '96 Ducati. The same way a '78 Yamaha looks like a '72 BSA that looks like a '68 Ducati. Monster begats Speed Triple begats Fazer, the list is endless.

There were those that dared to be different. BMW and MotoGuzzis stood out. Thanks for the great illustration of that, DB. I think that's why most of us like them. They're different. (Well, I like ALL bikes, but that's a differnt thread)

It seems BMW may have changed the game plan on the new K1200, but who knows what the game plan is. I can only point to the quantity of non-Germans working in their design studios for an explanation.

Then there are cruisers, which are ALL imitation Harleys, no matter WHAT the marketing hype says. (My FAVORITE is the Rebel 250!)

[James.A]

Looking at the picture of Daryl's bikes, I see a big difference between the R90S and the earlier bikes. I think everyone would agree that the air cooled boxer motor makes the BMW motorcycle unique, and that holds for all BMW's until the K-model came out. However, BMW did not always have a monopoly on boxers. I also think that the Goldwing, when introduced, was an obvious take on the basic design of BMW motorcycles, but over-engineered.

Try to visualize how different those vintage BMW's are from Harleys or british bikes of the same era, or the R90S compared to the Goldwing.

After the U.S. government helped Harley with a tarrif in the early 80's, the new bosses made the most of their opportunity, improved quality, and solidified their share of the US market, and set out to expand that share. The Japanese had already copied and improved the british bikes out of existence and at this point Harley was in their sights.(remember the Yamaha Virago?) This is the point in history where every manufacturer, except Harley, began copying the competitors successful models and we arrive at the present day. A handful of basic designs, and scores of variations of each.

[DarrylRi]

Originally posted by woodnsteel
Looking at the picture of Daryl's bikes, I see a big difference between the R90S and the earlier bikes. The big difference, to my eye, is that the R90S has an electric starter, which causes the whole bike to be much taller. (It also has more ground clearance, but I think this wouldn't be so obvious if the motor case weren't 6 inches taller than the /2, for example)

I think everyone would agree that the air cooled boxer motor makes the BMW motorcycle unique, and that holds for all BMW's until the K-model came out. However, BMW did not always have a monopoly on boxers. I also think that the Goldwing, when introduced, was an obvious take on the basic design of BMW motorcycles, but over-engineered. I should say that BMW did not have a monopoly on that layout, and you don't have to look at a Goldwing to find another one. After WWI, the company that made the Sopwith Camel airplanes went into motorcycles and produced a boxer twin bike with this layout. Douglas made boxer twin bikes 6 or 7 years before BMW got into it, though they didn't put it across the frame until afterwards.

Here's a picture of me and a Zuendapp K500 I got to ride for 120 miles in a vintage rally in Germany this past May. It also shows my friend Sascha and his 1920 Victoria KR1 (with the original BMW engine):
http://darryl.crafty-fox.com/mcpics/2004/europe1/windmillrally/P5013541_med.jpg

The K500 was a 4 speed, hand shift bike. (You can just see the shift lever coming out of the top of the transmission case and crossing in front of the top of the crankcase.) It was built at about the same time as my BMW R12, and they have pretty similar performance and features. Zuendapp also made a boxer 4 bike, 800ccs big. I guess this supports the notion that bikes of a given era tend to resemble each other strongly.

[ian408]

Darryl,

Thanks for the history lesson!

ian

[LTOwner]

Think all the various classes look pretty much the same. I pretty much classify anything I see into three groups, crotch rockets, tourers, and cruisers. Those three I can tell the difference. I have a hard time even recognizing another LT across an interstate. What gives me the biggest clue in recognizing a Beemer, is how the rider is dressed. Full suit, and full face helmet is usually the Beemer.