wedge designer

[matthewfelton]

where did this engine get designed and developed, anyone know????

[ridewv]

Germany?

[barryg]

China?

[Gilly]

Fat Baldistan?

[jurgen]

I still don't get it:
A transverse crankshaft requires TWO sets of bevel gears from the engine to the real wheel. In engineering design class I learned that a set of bevel gears costs about 5% of power. So, we're losing 10% between the gearbox output and the rear wheel.
With the boxer and brick designs it makes sense - a longitudinal crankshaft lends itself to a driveshaft design.
But, why hold on to the driveshaft when it turns into an engineering fauxpas?
Why does BMW not simply put a belt on the wedge? A belt costs about 3% in transmission power. And guaranteed 20 pounds less weight. Plus, it would also solve the final drive problems :D
Or a chain??? No, that would be too Japanese :laugh
Something to get the crowds fired up...

So, here's my offer to BMW: If you put a belt on the wedge, I'll buy it. Till then, I'll ride my brick.

[BuddingGeezer]

The wedge inline four is basically the type of engine called the UJM (Universal Japanese motor). The first engine of this type in a motorcycle is the 1969 Honda CB750. The K brick engine is a UJM mounted on it's side longitudinally.

Ralph Sims

[cjack]

I still don't get it:
A transverse crankshaft requires TWO sets of bevel gears from the engine to the real wheel. In engineering design class I learned that a set of bevel gears costs about 5% of power. So, we're losing 10% between the gearbox output and the rear wheel.
With the boxer and brick designs it makes sense - a longitudinal crankshaft lends itself to a driveshaft design.
But, why hold on to the driveshaft when it turns into an engineering fauxpas?
Why does BMW not simply put a belt on the wedge? A belt costs about 3% in transmission power. And guaranteed 20 pounds less weight. Plus, it would also solve the final drive problems :D
Or a chain??? No, that would be too Japanese :laugh
Something to get the crowds fired up...

So, here's my offer to BMW: If you put a belt on the wedge, I'll buy it. Till then, I'll ride my brick.

Oh heck...I could be going 192.22 mph instead of 173. Bummer.

[Gilly]

The wedge inline four is basically the type of engine called the UJM (Universal Japanese motor). The first engine of this type in a motorcycle is the 1969 Honda CB750.
Ralph Sims
You wanna research that a tad Ralphie????
Das ist inkorrect.

Gilly

[Lee]

You wanna research that a tad Ralphie????
Das ist inkorrect.

Gilly

Since we are in the forum for the transverse inline four, I figured the 69 Honda 750 was the correct answer. I realize for aft inline fours have been around since the early 1900s.
So I give up, who had the first transverse inline four in a motorcycle?

[Gilly]

Well for sure Friedel Munch had it, I also have heard that Honda (like THE Mr Honda) got the idea from seeing a Munch at a European bike show (Cologne or where ever). I believe there may have been some before that, but Honda seeing a Munch was the real impetus.

http://www.fasterandfaster.net/2007/05/memorable-mighty-mnch-mammut-tts-e.html

Gilly

[Gilly]

Consulted with a real cycle expert, he says in the 50s there were a few race bikes with transverse 4's, mentioning Gilera and NSU. There was an MV Agusta shown to the public in 1965, first one not sold until 1967.
The first Munch was shown to the public in Feb 1966, was in the Cologne bike show in Sept 66 (where Honda saw it), and the first one was sold in Nov/Dec 1966, so the first transverse 4 sold to the public, in this guys opinion, was the Munch.

Gilly

[BuddingGeezer]

Consulted with a real cycle expert, he says in the 50s there were a few race bikes with transverse 4's, mentioning Gilera and NSU. There was an MV Agusta shown to the public in 1965, first one not sold until 1967.
The first Munch was shown to the public in Feb 1966, was in the Cologne bike show in Sept 66 (where Honda saw it), and the first one was sold in Nov/Dec 1966, so the first transverse 4 sold to the public, in this guys opinion, was the Munch.

Gilly

I stand corrected. damn Wikepedia. The 1968 Münch-4 TTS 1200 Mammut did have an inline 4 overhead cam engine.

Like it or not the, the K bike and 1000cc BMW liter bike is getting Japanese like. Wet clutch, transverse inline 4, chain on the liter bike. Some guys are gripping about the Jap like turn signal switch.

Ralphie Sims

[Gilly]

I'd rather think that BMW finally caught up to Friedel Munch!

[dtpetty]

Like it or not the, the K bike and 1000cc BMW liter bike is getting Japanese like. Wet clutch, transverse inline 4, chain on the liter bike. Some guys are gripping about the Jap like turn signal switch.

Ralphie Sims[/QUOTE]

That turn signal switch would keep me from buying one - I'm serious! Vas vere dey tinking!?

[98lee]

The K brick engine is a UJM mounted on it's side longitudinally.

Ralph Sims

The Brick is more like BMWs CAR engines of the period (320i) than like a Japanese motorcycle engine. :nono



:dance :dance :dance

[Gilly]

It bears a lot of resemblance to the M42 engine IMHO. Here is a short vid of the engine:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhNvQiZb9DE
Although it belongs in a 89 or new 318 car.
Gilly

[GregFeeler]

That turn signal switch would keep me from buying one - I'm serious! Vas vere dey tinking!?

They are putting the TS switch back like it was on the Airheads in the last '70's and early '80's before BMW introduced the separate left/right switch design on the K-bikes. :stick

[rmarkr]

So, here's my offer to BMW: If you put a belt on the wedge, I'll buy it. Till then, I'll ride my brick.

Seen the latest hot BMW - with a revolutionary drive system ... err ... a chain.
17680

[108625]

Mr Honda had already campaigned inline multi's in GP racing. So had Count Agusta.
Sochiro was the first with the vision to make it available to the common man.
Herr Munch bolted a car engine (NSU) into a motorcycle frame, an old american hot-rod tradition.

[rinty]

Where did this engine get designed...

David Robb's skonkwerks.

[Gilly]

Mr Honda had already campaigned inline multi's in GP racing. So had Count Agusta.
Sochiro was the first with the vision to make it available to the common man.
Herr Munch bolted a car engine (NSU) into a motorcycle frame, an old american hot-rod tradition.

And when exactly did Honda do that?
You'll have to excuse Friedel for not having the resources (or desire) to make the MUNCH Mammut something "the common man" could normally attain, these were all hand-built motorcycles, very exclusive and for the most part made to order.

Yes the Munch engine started out as an air-cooled NSU Prinz TTS engine, but required a lot of reworking and new castings to make it work. Not exactly like a hot rodder putting a 327 Chevy into a 32 Ford coupe, or an American V8 into a Boss Hoss. A lot of thought and engineering went in to those cycles, he is a true craftsman and engineer, not some cobbler.

Gilly

[108625]

Take it easy there Gilly.

I'm talking about concept, not execution. Car engines in motorcycles go back as far as flathead Ford V8s in Indian four frames, and it does require ingenuity to make it happen. The Munch Mammut was indeed a low production, "exclusive" machine. It was also in the same spirit of any "bigger is better" hot rod.
Speaking as a hot rodder myself, I could just as easily be offended by your suggestion we're a bunch of cobblers.
The Honda CB750 went from concept to production in less than a year, making it's debut in 1968 as a 1969 model. A stunning accomplishment, and an admirable one as well, I'd say. Four cylinders, five speeds, electric start, and a hydraulic disc brake, in an affordable, reliable package.
Speaking as a CB750 owner and a "common man" I appreciate Mr Honda's attitude toward what should be within my reach.
It was a lot like Mr Ford's.

[Gilly]

Well when you said Munch "bolted a car engine into a motorcycle frame", the vision I had is that you thought it was just "that easy". It CAN be, but in this case the NSU engine is really just a core component (and a heavily modified core at that), had some pretty fancy magnesium castings to design, etc.

I didn't mean to infer that all hot rodders are cobblers, I also think the statement I made is being taken out of context.

And I also maintain that if Honda hadn't seen the Munch Mammut at the cycle show in Cologne that the developement of the Honda SOHC 4 would not have happened for several years later.

Gilly

[Gilly]

Mr Honda had already campaigned inline multi's in GP racing. So had Count Agusta.


I'm talking about concept, not execution.

Sooooo, you mean "in their minds" they had already campaigned inline multi's in GP racing????:dunno

[108625]

I meant concept not execution in regards to Munch and the car engined-bike.
Honda built an inline six cylinder GP bike in 1966:
http://world.honda.com/collection-hall/2rrace/rc166_1966.html
Mike hailwood raced this four cylinder Honda in '67.

[Gilly]

OK, so now you're talking prototypes and race bikes again, vs bikes for "the common man".
Munch was sort of in the middle, they WERE available to the public but very exclusive. Although comparing to todays market I would say somewhat less exclusive than a MTT Turbine bike for example. You didn't exactly have to be Howard Hughes (or Jay Leno) to afford one, but it sure didn't hurt! Not for the common man unless the common man was an unmarried rocket scientist.

The first Munch was debuted to the puplic in February 1966 ( this was a prototype) and in September 1966 the Munch Mammut #1 was showed
in Cologne at the bike show.
The first Munchs were sold in November/December 1966.
As far as a production Honda if I am not mistaken the CB750 was first transverse 4 in 1969.
And there were others, besides Honda, with transverse 4 engines. It's just that Friedel was first with a production transverse 4 available to the public. MV Agusta had one to show (600cc) in 1965 but not for sale til 67.

For the real first I believe it would be in the 50s, Gilera or NSU?

So I would like to say the first transverse 4 cylinder roadbike which was sold to the puplic was the Munch.

Gilly

[Gilly]

Is there a pic of that Honda 6 (engine, sorry) on the net anywhere? I found a soundclip of it, sounds pretty cool. Not as cool as a Munch though, those things sound wicked!

[108625]

Here you go.

[108625]

and here:

[108625]

My apologies to all for derailing the thread; I never suggested Munch wasn't first, just that Soichiro Honda visualized a big multi for the masses and made it happen.
The rest is history.

The "hot rodder" in the first picture I posted was E.J. Potter, the "Michigan Madman" or "THe Motor City Madman" long before Ted Nugent stole the title. His drag bike was small block Chevy powered.