synthetic oil

[ckelley]

I have 2002 R1150R. I want to begin to use synthetic oil in it. Is there anything special I should do to flush out the old petroleum type oil before I make the change? Also, what's the best synthetic oil to use and where can I get it? Thanks, Kelley

[RoboRider]

Hey Kelley,

Synthetic oil is completely miscible with regular dino oil. Do a good drain, switch, and you are fine.

I like Mobile 1 V-Twin. It is a full syn. oil and it is made for the high temperatures of the air cooled engine (V Twins run much hotter than boxers, esp. the rear cylinder which is blocked and receives heat from the front cylinder). There are many fine brands of oil. I think the quality of the oil filter is equally, if not more, important. I use BMW filters as I know they are top notch. I'm sure there are cheaper aftermarket brands out there, but since I only ride 12,000 miles a year (two oil changes), the cost of the filter purchased online isn't emptying my wallet.

I get good deals on Mobile One V twin by googling it. I last got it for $9 a quart, no tax, no shipping from:

http://www.eliteetc.com/mo1v20sin.html

Currently, it is about $11 a quart. I watch for sales and order on sale, thus always having around 6 quarts on hand.

Finally, you can reduce your costs by running your oil for 6000 miles. The oil is fine at this interval. If you don't think so, send a sample to "Blackstone" labs for an oil analysis--they'll tell you the quality and remaining life on the oil sample. You can read my oil analysis on my R12RT here:

http://www.bmwxplor.com/forums/topic/show/3166#new

Good riding to you.
Robo

[bikerfish1100]

good stuff, good deal.

http://www.cyclegear.com/spgm.cfm?L1=&L2=&L3=&L4=&item=CAS_12900_G

at less than 1/2 the price of the previously mentioned Mobil 1.. ooh yeah!

[winkwm]

Amsoil, high quality full synthetic, longer change intervals, moderate price!! The stuff I use, Amsoil recommends change at 25000 miles or 1 year. Initial $ outlay is more but pays for itself in the long run.

[rambrookian]

Lots of good synthetic engine oils out there including those aforementioned in this thread. I use BMW full synthetic 15-50W (Mfg by Spectro) and made the switch over from petroleum engine oil at 18,000 miles in my 2000 R1100RT. I've been told by some techs to hold off on making the switchover prior to 12,000 miles. Personally, I'm not a big believer in semi-synthetics because they are approximately 80% petroleum or more; so you're bettter off financially, sticking with the full petroleum oil if you're looking to save money. To me the benefits of a full synthetic oil justify the cost, as does investing in a high quality oil filter. I use the Mahle OC91, which is the OEM version of BMW's recommended filter; Part #11421460845 for my bike. Check out Turner Motorsports at: www.turnermotorsports.com -- Their price is $10.50 ea. However, check with your dealer to verify the BMW oil filter part number called out for your bike.

[Red100RT]

Seems I read that if you consider a synthetic like a 5-20 oil compared to a 5-20 dino oil the difference is that the synthetic oil is blended with a 20 weight oil as a base and the dino 5-20 is blended with a 5 weight as the base oil. Additives are used to make the dino oil spec out as a 5-20 oil and these additives do break done with age. This doesn't happen with the synthetic oil since no additives are used. Also, the additives in the dino oil will break down if the oil is stored in an un-heated garage in a cold climate even if the oil is stored in the original container and not placed in an engine. If these statements are true then synthetic is for sure the way to go.

[RoboRider]

good stuff, good deal.

http://www.cyclegear.com/spgm.cfm?L1=&L2=&L3=&L4=&item=CAS_12900_G

at less than 1/2 the price of the previously mentioned Mobil 1.. ooh yeah!

That oil is cheap because it is not full synthetic. If you are going to run a blend, just run dino oil. Full synthetic oils cost a lot more. It's apples and oranges here.

[osbornk]

That oil is cheap because it is not full synthetic. If you are going to run a blend, just run dino oil. Full synthetic oils cost a lot more. It's apples and oranges here.

I use dino oil in my car, truck, suv, motorcycles and John Deeres. If you change your oil and filters properly, the engines in all of them will outlast the rest of the vehicle. I've never had an oil related engine failure in my 46 years of driving and I haven't found anyone else who has with a properly maintained engine. I don't see anything gained by paying several times the price for synthetic.

[RoboRider]

I use dino oil in my car, truck, suv, motorcycles and John Deeres. If you change your oil and filters properly, the engines in all of them will outlast the rest of the vehicle. I've never had an oil related engine failure in my 46 years of driving and I haven't found anyone else who has with a properly maintained engine. I don't see anything gained by paying several times the price for synthetic.

I don't disagree . I like full synth, but I am not going to say there isn't some placebo effect here. And certainly using dino and regular changes worked just fine for all those old high mileage airheads. I'm just saying that Castrol BLEND can't be compared in PRICE to Mobile 1 full synthetic.

That's all.

[bikerfish1100]

here's a pretty interesting explanation of motor oils:
http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oils1.html

for those bashing the choice of semi-synth, and crowning glory onto Mobil1 and other synthetics, i've cut out 2 paragraphs that i found especially revealing:

"In the late 1990s, Castrol started selling an oil made from Group III base oil and called it SynTec Full Synthetic. Mobil sued Castrol, asserting that this oil was not synthetic, but simply a highly refined petroleum oil, and therefore it was false advertising to call it synthetic. In 1999, Mobil lost their lawsuit. It was decided that the word "synthetic" was a marketing term and referred to properties, not to production methods or ingredients. Castrol continues to make SynTec out of Group III base oils, that is highly purified mineral oil with most all of the cockroach bits removed.

Shortly after Mobil lost their lawsuit, most oil companies started reformulating their synthetic oils to use Group III base stocks instead of PAOs or diester stocks as their primary component. Most of the "synthetic oil" you can buy today is actually mostly made of this highly-distilled and purified dino-juice called Group III oil. Group III base oils cost about half as much as the synthetics. By using a blend of mostly Group III oils and a smaller amount of "true" synthetics, the oil companies can produce a product that has nearly the same properties as the "true" synthetics, and nearly the same cost as the Group III oil. The much more expensive traditional synthetics are now available in their pure forms only in more expensive and harder to obtain oils. To the best of my knowledge, Delvac-1, AMSOil, Redline, and Motul 5100 are the only oils made from pure traditional synthetics. "


personally, i like the Castrol Semi-Synth as it is a m/c specific oil that meets all the requirements set forth by BMW, without breaking my bank. (that i get a fairly healthy discount from CycleGear for being a MSF instructor doesn't hurt either!)

[bigdelta]

I use dino oil in my car, truck, suv, motorcycles and John Deeres. If you change your oil and filters properly, the engines in all of them will outlast the rest of the vehicle. I've never had an oil related engine failure in my 46 years of driving and I haven't found anyone else who has with a properly maintained engine. I don't see anything gained by paying several times the price for synthetic.

By not seeing anything gained-besides longer oil change intervals and cooler running temps and better lubrication for starters?:dunno
Amsoil for me-at least in my bike.Like you,I could care less what goes into my cage.

[abe456]

I ran synthetics for years (since 1995) in all my toys (bike, boats) and my trucks (chevys and fords), kept track of costs using Quickbooks, as I run a small business.

Not worth the difference in cost. In fact, long term cost of ownership was higher with the synthetics. That's almost 15 years of record keeping.

Now I just run good dyno oil from the local M/c shop.

Out at the nuke plant where I used to work, we ran synthetics in cooling tower gearboxes because of wet moisture conditions, mild radioactive contamination, and cost of shutdown. Synthentics allowed us to double the time between scheduled maintenance. We tried synthethetics in a number of other equipment (air compressors, fork lifts, sample boats, pumps, etc.) and never really saw a measurable benefit in terms of cost, but that doesnt mean there were not benefits. We were able to extend uptime on air compressors, and some pumps, but that's about it.

[kantuckid]

I am curious if anyone has asked Al Gore as to whether or not the true, full synthetic oils are "more green" to produce?
P.S., who has the best buy on Redline or Amsoil engine oil?

[Acejones]

Most people are never going to keep whatever they drive for synthetics to pay off. As for a previous comment about cooler running temps, one would presume thats a good thing, but is there any statistical evidence on that particular motor that it matters. It may be that for the average motorist synthetics are a solution in search of a problem.

[AndyMcLain]

AMSOIL offers a "white paper" test of many different oils, synthetic and petroleum, for a couple of bucks. I personally had a bad experience with petroleum oil and a TURBO car with a badly sludged motor. Apparently the petro-oil didn't take the high turbo temperatures very well. Also have a friend whose rear cyclinder cooling fan crapped out on a trip and pretty well fried the petro-oil in that part of the engine. Synthetic may have held up better. Manufacturers do not recommend the use of synthetics until after break-in because they do protect so well, but the key is probably regular oil and filter changes.

[kgadley01]

AMSOIL for me in all my bikes, Mobil 1 in my truck and wife's van.....:thumb

[osbornk]

Most people are never going to keep whatever they drive for synthetics to pay off. As for a previous comment about cooler running temps, one would presume thats a good thing, but is there any statistical evidence on that particular motor that it matters. It may be that for the average motorist synthetics are a solution in search of a problem.

Regarding running cooler. That is not always a good thing. There were several automobile engines that had failures due to oil not being up to the needed temperature. It happened to a Toyota Avalon of my son-in-law. He changed oil and filter every 3,000 miles without fail..He had an engine failure at 140,000 miles (rod bearing) and the crankcase was gummed up like the oil had never been changed. The oil apparently did not get hot enough to allow the moisture and other contaminates to evaporate. Toyota paid for a bunch of failed engine (I suspect it was a thermostat problem). They didn't help my son-in-law because of the mileage.

I'm sure synthetic oil doesn't make enough of a difference in temperatures to matter in any way.

Synthetic oil makes people feel better because it is perceived as "the best". Whether it actually makes a difference does not matter. Some people buy a BMW for the same reason.

[rambrookian]

Have you ever been to a 4th of July parade and seen the Harley Shriner's motorcycles idling along in 95 degree heat? What do you think that heat is doing to their engine oil? I'll tell you what... it's breaking down. Have you ever seen a Harley pulled over at the side of the road because of overheating? I have.

I for one have been caught in traffic backed up for a half mile on my Oilhead waiting to get thru a 4-way intersection in 90+ degree heat. In either scenario if you're not moving, your engine oil is rapidly increasing in temperature. And if you're running dino oil in your engine, it's going to breakdown a lot sooner than any full synthetic. About 200 degrees F sooner. That's a fact.

Furthermore, you cannot compare a water-cooled engine; automotive or cycle, to an air-cooled motorcyle engine. The bottom-line for me... I'll pay a few bucks more for the added insurance that full synthetic's provide; heat protection is just one of the benefits. It's a personal choice.

[bikerfish1100]

Have you ever been to a 4th of July parade and seen the Harley Shriner's motorcycles idling along in 95 degree heat? What do you think that heat is doing to their engine oil? I'll tell you what... it's breaking down. Have you ever seen a Harley pulled over at the side of the road because of overheating? I have.

I for one have been caught in traffic backed up for a half mile on my Oilhead waiting to get thru a 4-way intersection in 90+ degree heat. In either scenario if you're not moving, your engine oil is rapidly increasing in temperature. And if you're running dino oil in your engine, it's going to breakdown a lot sooner than any full synthetic. About 200 degrees F sooner. That's a fact.

Furthermore, you cannot compare a water-cooled engine; automotive or cycle, to an air-cooled motorcyle engine. The bottom-line for me... I'll pay a few bucks more for the added insurance that full synthetic's provide; heat protection is just one of the benefits. It's a personal choice.

all true- except there is NO connection whatsoever between hot oil and a bike sitting immobilized on the side of the road (as you implied with the H-D comment)- that's due to a fuel delivery issue.

[glennhendricks]

if the engine seized I'm thinking all the gas in the world isn't going to move it.

Not even a Harley.

[bikerfish1100]

but seriously (& thoroughly realistically), when is the last time you're known/heard about an engine seizing due to a lubrication issue?
Ever?
See, people get going on about oil quality, and play the "destroy your engine" card... but it never happens. Short of losing oil in a catastrophic way, it just does not happen. My R100Gs had a full motor rebuild at 70L miles after the original owner lost the drain plug on the interstate (i was told "lost the oil pan" by the guy i bought it from, who was not the unfortuanate chap with the motor rebuild, but that's just too unbelievable). Except for rare cases like that- it does not happen.
Overbuilt Harley motors have a tendency to vapor lock in high heat (fuel delivery problem, not fuel supply)- have seen it happen more than once while teaching an ERC.

[kenk]

Have you ever been to a 4th of July parade and seen the Harley Shriner's motorcycles idling along in 95 degree heat? What do you think that heat is doing to their engine oil? I'll tell you what... it's breaking down. Have you ever seen a Harley pulled over at the side of the road because of overheating? I have.

I for one have been caught in traffic backed up for a half mile on my Oilhead waiting to get thru a 4-way intersection in 90+ degree heat. In either scenario if you're not moving, your engine oil is rapidly increasing in temperature. And if you're running dino oil in your engine, it's going to breakdown a lot sooner than any full synthetic. About 200 degrees F sooner. That's a fact.

Furthermore, you cannot compare a water-cooled engine; automotive or cycle, to an air-cooled motorcyle engine. The bottom-line for me... I'll pay a few bucks more for the added insurance that full synthetic's provide; heat protection is just one of the benefits. It's a personal choice.

Years ago when I lived in Washington, D.C. and battled stand still traffic daily with my RT, I thought about changing to synthetic BMW oil. However, while visiting Bob's BMW, the staff told me all their loaner fleet uses only petroleum based BMW oil. Some of the loaners had over 200,000 miles. They claimed at the time the had never experience a BMW engine failure in Washington D.C. traffic and hadn't seen any with their customers.

If you use a good quality motorcycle oil regardless of whether its petroleum based or synthetic, the average rider shouldn't need synthetic. Its the dirt in the oil that affects breakdown. IMHO, running dirty synthetic for 6000 miles is probably not as good as running clean petroleum based oil for only 3000 miles.

I have three BMWs in my garage with a combined total of over 300,000 miles using petroleum based BMW oil. The only time I have experienced an engine failure on a motorcycle was back in 1995 when my Honda Goldwing lost it's main bearings using Castrol Synthetic. The weak point on a BMW motorcycle is not the motors. It's seal leaks that soil the clutch, shafts and rear hubs. That's where you ought to be concerned.

[cjack]

If you use a good quality motorcycle oil regardless of whether its petroleum based or synthetic, the average rider shouldn't need synthetic. Its the dirt in the oil that affects breakdown. IMHO, running dirty synthetic for 6000 miles is probably not as good as running clean petroleum based oil for only 3000 miles.

Which is better, 6K to 8K miles over a period of one year with dino or with synth?

[osbornk]

Which is better, 6K to 8K miles over a period of one year with dino or with synth?

I don't think you will ever wear the engine out with either. Of all of the problems I see on the forum, I can't think of a single one that could have been changed by using a different engine oil. As was just said, the engine is not the weak point of a BMW.

[kenk]

Which is better, 6K to 8K miles over a period of one year with dino or with synth?

Neither. IMHO, its the contamination in the oil thats the real issue.

There are three ways contamination occurs. The first way is debris that comes in through the air intake. Once it makes it through the air filter, it ends up in your oil. Once in your oil, it starts damaging your engine, regardless of whether your using synthetic or petroleum based oil.

The second source of contamination is metal shavings from the inside of your engine. The lesser the quality of the oil, the higher percentage of these shavings because there will be more metal to metal contact inside the engine. One could argue that Synthetic reduces metal shavings. However, most BMW owners that I know operate their motorcycles no where need the limits of the motor. A good quality motor oil will do.

The third source of contamination is combustion by-products. Combustion by-products will generally raise the acidity of your oil, which causes corrosion in your engine. In addition, they will be left behind as the engine oil burns off and will collect on the inside of your engine as deposits. To maintain the viability of your oil as well as protection of the engine, the contaminants have to be removed/neutralized. The longer you keep the same oil (regardless of type) in the motor, the longer the contaminates stay in the motor. The best way to remove the contaminates is by regular oil changes.

None of this really matter to most owners that buy and sell their bikes every few years. It really only matters if you keep motorcycles for many years and run up high mileage.

[PGlaves]

I don't think you will ever wear the engine out with either. Of all of the problems I see on the forum, I can't think of a single one that could have been changed by using a different engine oil. As was just said, the engine is not the weak point of a BMW.

I hear this type of statement all the time - so I will address it.

Voni has an R1100RS. It developed a strange valve train clicking sound that couldn't be cured with either a valve adjustment or rocker arm end play adjustment. So I disassembled the valve train assembly. I found that the cam followers were worn around their circumference; there was scoring in the cam follower bores. One of the cam followers which look like little pistons had rocked in the bore sufficiently that the "skirt" had fractured completely off leaving only a disk shaped piece of metal as the follower; thus the clicking sound.

Since the followers and the bores they are located in (all 4 of them) were worn I replaced the entire cam and rocker assemblies on the bike.

This was clearly wear related to lubrication. Whether the "best" oil would have prevented it is open to speculation but it is clearly a case where the lubrication from the oil used was not sufficient to prevent the wear.

Now, the bike had 314,000 miles on it when it happened, so I can't call it premature wear. I have also changed rod big end bearings on a number of airheads in the 100,000 miles or so range. These bikes didn't suffer an oiling failure - just worn bearings that are protected, but not protected well enough by the lubricating oil that was used..

So I simply don't buy the argument that "I've never seen an oil related engine failure unless he ran it out of oil." Sure we have - we see them all the time.

All that said, I run dino SG rated 20w50 motorcycle oil in all of our motorcycles. But eventually even SG rated oil with increased anti-wear additives isn't good enough.

[kantuckid]

I love oil threads!:laugh I can remember when I used whatever oil(in my race car- a CooperS) that the SCCA's latest lab testing said(Wolfshead via NAPA) was the best. I also ran it in my street cars and can testify that it made them go so fast , that by the time I got my first security clearance done ,I already had set a record # of speeding tickets for my age.
Now it's off to Wally World for Mobil 1 @ $6.27 per qt(why pay $10+ for Amsoil?) and zero (well almost zero) speeding tickets.
I remember the Mobil 1 test written up in the BMWCCA mag showing over a million miles on an E30- 325i in around 1989 with the engine still churning and the car having gone through several rear ends and trannys, etc..

[breyfogle]

So I simply don't buy the argument that "I've never seen an oil related engine failure unless he ran it out of oil." Sure we have - we see them all the time.

I have to respectfully disagree, Paul. First, Oilhead valve train wear at 314 Kmiles can not be unexpected and is probably due mostly to, ... well ... ,314 Kmiles, not the brand of oil used. As for Airhead bigend bearings, maybe the engine design does not put enough oil in the right place, most of the time, to keep the bearings living beyond 100 K miles. Again, I doubt changing the brand of oil would make much difference.

I have to believe that the general level of lubricating oil technology is sufficiently advanced that differences between name-brand oils of the same specification are insignificant. Heck, if you don't need the expanded temperature range of full synthetics, even the whole debate between dino oil versus synthetic oil probably makes no difference either.

That being said, I have recently been using motorcycle specific oils in order to avoid the newer car oils (SL?) that are reported to have reduced amounts of anti-wear additives.

Just my $0.02 ....