OK, I bought a barn bike today

[rbleau]

My first post ! Although I recently joined MOA, my first BMW was a 1960 R60US back in 1972. Well, I retired from Lockheed last November, and I am an amateur wrencher - very amateur. Today I bought a 1977 R100RS that was last registered in 1987. The fuel tank is completely rusted out - it was parked with fuel in it. Otherwise it is complete, including tool kit and bags.

What should I attack first ? I do not know if the motor is frozen. It has oil in it an I do not see water. Just got it home tonight. unclear how to attach a photo...

Ready to get some good suggestions as I am sure you folks have "been there already". I elected to put some of my 401k into West German steel and aluminum rather than Wall Street. Thanks / Ron

1977 R100S - done
1977 R100/7 - in work at a shop
1977 R100S - awaiting work
1977 R100RS - today's bike.

[PAULBACH]

Welcome Rbleau
http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g264/PaulBach/Smilies/welcome8.gif

Looks like you are embarked on a real adventure. You have come to the right place. There will be lots of advice coming along.

Come back here with stories and pictures as the restoration proceeds.

Paul

[keelerb]

Welcome!

As for restoration tutorials, you'll find a lot of them out there. CrazyDrummerDudes's "1974 R90/6 never-ending project" thread a few threads down from this one, for example.

OR:

http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showthread.php?t=22192

http://penforhire.wordpress.com/

[krehmkej]

Disassemble. Inspect and repair or replace as necessary. Reassemble in reverse order.

Seriously, that's what I did.

But first - WE NEED PICTURES!

[TonysR100]

Congratulations on your find. I'm sure you'll get lots of better advice than mine, but I'm just getting into a barn bike (1971 BSA Lightning), as well, so here's what I've learned.
Patience is your watchword. Dose everything in penetrating oil and then dose it again and let it sit. The quaint old English name for the stuff is "easing oil" and that's exactly what you want to do, ease it.
Try to turn the engine over by hand, gently, so that you don't bend a pushrod getting it loose. Take the spark plugs out for this, pour in some of your easing oil of choice, leave it for a day to work into the rings. Take off the front cover to get a purchase for turning. When it turns, you might be able to feel any stiffness or gravelly feeling, which of course is bad. If it comes smoothly and you can shift the gears (spin the rear wheel while shifting) and they feel good, then why not change all the fluids, borrow a tank and battery and see if she'll start. That will tell you a lot of what you need to know.
If it won't turn, then I would suggest you start from the top down, heads, barrels and, finally, the bottom end.
Watch for water in the transmission.
There are several good books on restoring old bikes that have a wealth of practical advice, including how to work around a lack of factory tools.
I have a 1977 RS. I guess '77 must be the best year, no?
Good luck,
Tony

[04R1150RS]

DON'T start the bike, if the motor turns I would drop the oil pan and clean it out along w/ the strainer. Gets rid of any sludge that might have accumulated over the years, plus lets you see if anything is obviously wrong. Change all fluids, brakes too, at least drop the fuel bowls, but will most likely need to pull the jets and clean them too. Check fuel lines for clogging (maybe go ahead and replace) and replace fuel filter and clean petcock strainers.

[rbleau]

Good thoughts, Tony. I had been hinking od trying to turn i via the rear wheel....maybe not. Yes, I think 1977 is a very good year. I like double disc brakes, for example. "easing oil" - gotta buy some of that ! :)

Cheers, and Thanks, Ron

Congratulations on your find. I'm sure you'll get lots of better advice than mine, but I'm just getting into a barn bike (1971 BSA Lightning), as well, so here's what I've learned.
Patience is your watchword. Dose everything in penetrating oil and then dose it again and let it sit. The quaint old English name for the stuff is "easing oil" and that's exactly what you want to do, ease it.
Try to turn the engine over by hand, gently, so that you don't bend a pushrod getting it loose. Take the spark plugs out for this, pour in some of your easing oil of choice, leave it for a day to work into the rings. Take off the front cover to get a purchase for turning. When it turns, you might be able to feel any stiffness or gravelly feeling, which of course is bad. If it comes smoothly and you can shift the gears (spin the rear wheel while shifting) and they feel good, then why not change all the fluids, borrow a tank and battery and see if she'll start. That will tell you a lot of what you need to know.
If it won't turn, then I would suggest you start from the top down, heads, barrels and, finally, the bottom end.
Watch for water in the transmission.
There are several good books on restoring old bikes that have a wealth of practical advice, including how to work around a lack of factory tools.
I have a 1977 RS. I guess '77 must be the best year, no?
Good luck,
Tony

[rbleau]

Thanks, krehmke, and to all I apologize for my fat finger typos in prior reply. Here is a pic. Thanks / Ron

Disassemble. Inspect and repair or replace as necessary. Reassemble in reverse order.

Seriously, that's what I did.

But first - WE NEED PICTURES!

[krehmkej]

Nice machine. It should be a lot of fun getting it into shape. Mine was in similar shape. Count on replacing EVERY piece of rubber. All grease (steering head, wheels, swingarm) will have turned to hard grunge. Inspect your wiring harness very carefully. Look for evidence of rubbing, corrosion and melting, especially below the starter relay (a problem spot on these). Check carbs for correct jets and rebuild them. Brakes are likely needing complete overhaul. Hopefully the master cylinder will save. New hoses, rebuild calipers. Forks will likely need cleaned out and rebuilt as the internal dampers will have turned to sludge. I found Hucky's BMW a good source for ignition, brake and fork parts/kits.

Ask questions. There are lots of folks here who've been there done that and are willing to share their experience.

Most important: HAVE FUN!

[roncooper]

Before you spend much effort/money pull the oil pan. There was was a case of an old neglected bike posted here a few months ago.

After much work and an entertaining narrative, he found big chunks of metal in the oil pan. He hasn't posted in a while, but I think he abandoned it.

[keelerb]

Good point Ron. I'd forgotten the perils of "Renegade."

There's another thread worth looking at - it was captioned "Does this airhead make me an airhead?," and along with some good advice, it may cheer you up if/as you discover problems. They almost certainly won't be as bad as those of Renegade's owner (or as humorous. I'm not laughing at Renegade's owner's ultimate bad luck - we could all feel that pain - just some of the lesser travails along the way) .

[69zeff65]

I have a garage find R 50S and spent the last year cleaning correcting and enjoying the sporty little machine. I would first strip all the plastic off the bike to ensure there are no rodents in residence, remove and clean-out the oil sump, remove and clean valve covers while you inspect and adjust as needed the valves, remove the spark plugs and add a good amount of "Marvel Mystery Oil". While this soaks and does its job remove the carbs and all the air filter plumbing for inspection and cleaning, you should plan on complete carb rebuild. By this time the motor should be free to turn by hand, before you install a good battery you should inspect the wiring harness to ensure the hungry & cold rodents have not chewed it up for a nest or food. Fresh oil, remote starter, carbs removed go ahead and run a quick compression test. Hook up the battery correctly and check the spark with new plugs. Now after all that has checked out good or been corrected put the rebuilt carbs on use a donor gas tank, fresh gas lots of ventilation and crank it up. keep fans on the motor to avoid overheating and run it on the centerstand at vareing speeds for about 30 minutes. check for leaks knocks and other signs of pending doom. Shut it down, let it cool and run another compression check if its decent change the driveline fluids, check the brakes, air-up and check the tire condition if it all loks good ride your still naked RS 100 around the neigborhood for about a half hour (Oh put a good tag on it) then bring it home let it cool and check for leaks, broken stuff and any other potential problems. Give the bike a good cleaning, fresh tires and enjoy it as a riding restoratin project.
ZEFF

[osbornk]

My first priority would be to get the engine loosened up. I would remove the plugs and fill the cylinders with oil and let them soak for days. I'm fond of mystery oil. After it has soaked for days, then you can try and turn it. don't force anything. If it doesn't free up, I would remove the heads and try to pull the cylinders so I could clean themn up.

[88bmwJeff]

You've gotten a lot of good advice here on going stem to stern renewing and replacing things as needed. Being a novice wrench, you are bound to run into situations where you will need some advice. Coming here is a great place to get some advice, but there's no substitute for getting some one-on-one advice from someone who knows. If you haven't done already I would join the Airheads group (Airheads.org) and attend some tech days. Between here and the Airhead group, you should hopefully be able to locate a few local gurus who will be more than willing to give you a hand. And, if you've got a few extra $$ you don't mind spending to make a few new friends, you could always host tech day.

[crazydrummerdude]

I look forward to watching this one.

Looks like the bad weather keeps coming, so you've still got time to tear it apart without cutting into prime ride-time.

[kstoo]

:lurk

What the heck - enclosed is a photo of my 1974 R90/6 I bought new from Irv Seaver in Santa Ana in 1974.

Irv Seaver? I prefer Browns Motor Works!!

That mention and the picture of your brand new R90 bring back memories of bikelust. All that I could afford was a Honda CB500T but I used to visit Bob Brown's and Irv Seaver's and drool! Eventually I got my used R75.

[AnnapolisAirhead]

Thanks, krehmke, and to all I apologize for my fat finger typos in prior reply. Here is a pic. Thanks / Ron

Interesting bike. If I am seeing what I think I am, then Bill Stermer's R100RS book has a picture of what he suggests is the only R100RS with spoke wheels and a rear drum brake that ever made it into the US, may be mistaken. All others had rear discs. Apparently, there are two??? Anyone else have a drummy RS too?

Either way, it looks like a great find! Congrats and welcome.

[Braddog]

Interesting bike. If I am seeing what I think I am, then Bill Stermer's R100RS book has a picture of what he suggests is the only R100RS with spoke wheels and a rear drum brake that ever made it into the US, may be mistaken. All others had rear discs. Apparently, there are two??? Anyone else have a drummy RS too?

Either way, it looks like a great find! Congrats and welcome.
My '77 RS has a rear drum.

What's the serial number of the new acquistion, rbleau, if you don't mind sharing it?

[robsryder]

Hey, don't forget to put your info on the 77RS registry - and get a 77RS t-shirt and coffee mug. There are more of us around than you might think.
http://www.geocities.com/knut_brauteset/form.htm
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Show/9544/rs77.htm

ADV (www.advrider.com) under 'Old Skool' currently has several individuals that are working on airheads. Several of the threads are being well documented with photos and comments.
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=433588
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=431153
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=417387

[robsryder]

...Anyone else have a drummy RS too?

Yes. See photo. The photo was taken after I spent about 2 years going all over my bike.

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i283/robsmoto/92ee4f78.jpg

[535is]

Thanks, krehmke, and to all I apologize for my fat finger typos in prior reply. Here is a pic. Thanks / Ron
Looks like as good a place as any to start. Yours has an aftermarket (probably Parabellum) windscreen. You can get the stock height if you don't mind the wind in your face. The later RS in the thread has a Corbin Gunfighter dual seat; yours is OEM. I discovered yesterday that Sargent Cycle has replacement covers in black, but not blue (for my Motorsport). Depending on how picky you are for your restoration, I will have a set of mufflers coming off my RS in the spring. They aren't great, but they are a heckuva lot better looking than yours there. Your lower fairings are the early unsplit type that require you to undo the exhaust to get them off - which says they are original, but difficult. If you decide to redo those side covers, the blue "1000cc" stickers are still available. Don't drive yourself crazy trying to get that paint shiny. The original color was MATTE silver blue. ;)

[rbleau]

My thanks to all / plenty to read and comprehend ! My frame no. is 6180215, in 11/76. I sent my info to the RS web page guy to "register". Here's a scary story - the fella that sold it to me stated that he had put a charger on the battery and that all the lights worked. Well, see the pic - the battery is over 20 years old. Sheesh. Whew !
Anyway, thus far:
- RS unloaded and wheeled into the shop
- prioritized list started
- tank removed
- master cyl fluid reservoir cleaned out somewhat
- experimented with simichrome on fork legs - some pitting just where they exit the fairing

Can you believe the tires hold air ? Yup. Clutch is NOT frozen, but stiff.

I would prefer a shorter, original windshield.

Next: cordon off an area of my shop for parts and what not....

Shop picture to follow !

Cheers / Ron (Age 60)

[108625]

That's my kind of shop!

My inspirational poster is one of the late Wild Willie Borsch, behind the wheel of the "Winged Express"... There is a girl in the background, nervously holding the hem of her miniskirt too high.
Mousie Marcellus signed it, I think he was aware of the slip (or lack thereof).

[kstoo]

:lurk

This is going to be really interesting! Keep the stories and pictures coming, please.

[AnnapolisAirhead]

Yes. See photo. The photo was taken after I spent about 2 years going all over my bike.


Gorgeous bike. I thought it was odd that there was an assumption that only one was imported into the US. If you don't have the book, its called "BMW R100RS" by Bill Stermer. ISBN #1-884313-31-0 on page 40 there is a picture of a bike, looks just like you have.

I think I need an RS. :-)

[Rev_Eddie]

Interesting bike. If I am seeing what I think I am, then Bill Stermer's R100RS book has a picture of what he suggests is the only R100RS with spoke wheels and a rear drum brake that ever made it into the US, may be mistaken. All others had rear discs. Apparently, there are two??? Anyone else have a drummy RS too?


All '77 R100RS models were rear drum brakes, as well as the early '78 RS models until the snowflake wheels with discs all around came out sometime mid-year.

[rbleau]

Consequences of storing a motorcycle for 20 years with fuel in the tank.

I suspect this will not be readily repairable. Nice pinstriping, though. / Ron

[robsryder]

...I suspect this will not be readily repairable. Nice pinstriping, though.

You might wish to check out this shop for repairs to your fuel tank.
http://www.gas-tank.com/bike.htm

You might also wish to check for prices for a used fuel tank (for a /7) from folks that carry used BMW parts -
http://www.bobsbmw.com/
http://www.re-psycle.com/
http://www.airheadsalvage.com/
and of course ebay.

BMW thinks pretty highly of their fuel tanks. A "new" fuel tank for your RS is
part #16111452283 ; description= fuel tank prime coated ; price = $1,120.68

And you still have to have the tank painted and pinstriped!

[rbleau]

And you still have to have the tank painted and pinstriped!


Thanks for the info & links, Robsmoto - I think used is a good idea...I would not trust repairing this one !

I have a super large endurance tank, with a large BMW gas cap, in good condition, fiberglass, that I hope to bargain with. I have no idea what she would hold - maybe 10 gal or more ? Anyone familiar with the history of this tank ? oops- better go take a photo of it. OK, it is roughly 27" long, 17" wide and 16" tall.

No clue how to upload more than one pic at a time, sorry. / RB

[Roguetek]

I have a late 70's R tank in good to excellent shape, it's identical to yours mechanically, from what I can see.


I could be convinced to horse trade...

[rbleau]

Whike I am awaiting shipment of Kroil, thought I would do some cleanup. Some good news - behind the swingarm caps, there appears to be grease that is not solid. I shot some green Bel Ray waterproof grease into the swingarm bearings just to do something. Shot some PB penetrating oil around the spark plugs and will let them sit some more. Both wheels turn freely, and the ancient tubes hold air. After doing those tasks, saddled up and rode my 77 R100S about 40 miles or so, refilled from a Mobil station here that advertises that they do not have ethanol in their gas.

Any suggestions on how to get oil onto the bearings before I try to rotate the crank by hand ?

[AnnapolisAirhead]

Consequences of storing a motorcycle for 20 years with fuel in the tank.

I suspect this will not be readily repairable. Nice pinstriping, though. / Ron
I don't what you intend to do with the original tank, but you might want to consider making it a cut-away for tech days. Gives people a chance to see the inner workings, where fuel/water may lie, petcock pickup and reserve tubes sit, etc.

I recently attended the Pennsylvania SuperTech and one of the instructors brought a cutaway tank in. The have a collection of everything imaginable in cut-away form from Bing carbs (sliced right through the jets!) to transmissions, forks and several engines. Great stuff and it all comes from parts like your tank.

Really enjoying this thread. I'd be tempted to pull the engien and trans and do a total rebuild. Of course, its easier to suggest that, than to do it. :lurk

[108625]

Any suggestions on how to get oil onto the bearings before I try to rotate the crank by hand ?

Good idea. When building car engines we would prime the oil system by inserting a purpose built shaft in through the distributor hole to the oil pump drive shaft and spin it with an electric drill... Meaningless trivia that won't help with an airhead, but it backs up your point; it is worth being concerned about with a plain bearing engine.

Have you drained what's already in there and dropped the pan? I'd do that first.

I would think (if you can afford it) you can overfill that crankcase with thin viscosity oil (or ATF) for a few days and let it penetrate everywhere. Then drain it out (and inspect) and gently turn it over by hand, then refill with the correct level with proper oil and a clean filter before trying to start it. Automatic transmission fluid (ATF) is thin, is great at breaking up and cleaning out old sludge, and has additives that help seals and gaskets "swell". It's also cheap.

[rbleau]

Boat School Airhead: good suggestion for the tank - will think about it.

108625 - now that is a novel approach ! let me think - what I really need is to look at an engine block that is torn down....will there be any unintended consequences of overfilling ? I was about ready - pending air temp increase later this week - to drain the fluids and drop the pan, but your suggestion has intrigued me ....wonder how high up you can go before it runs out somewhere, or runs ino a bad palce ? getting up to the mains might be tough, and seems possible to accidentally soak the clutch, which may well be worth saving - the bike has only 18k miles on her when she was parked.

Keep 'em coming ! / Ron :scratch

[535is]

- the bike has only 18k miles on her when she was parked.

I dunno, man. A lot of what I see says "118k", not 18k. If it's only 18k, where's the original windshield? :scratch

[108625]

Boat School Airhead: good suggestion for the tank - will think about it.

108625 - now that is a novel approach ! let me think - what I really need is to look at an engine block that is torn down....will there be any unintended consequences of overfilling ? I was about ready - pending air temp increase later this week - to drain the fluids and drop the pan, but your suggestion has intrigued me ....wonder how high up you can go before it runs out somewhere, or runs ino a bad palce ? getting up to the mains might be tough, and seems possible to accidentally soak the clutch, which may well be worth saving - the bike has only 18k miles on her when she was parked.

Keep 'em coming ! / Ron :scratch

It's just a thought. Dropping the pan will give you a better idea of how dry it might be in there, or if there was a condensation and rust issue over time. It also might show you why it was parked (read Lonelobo's thread). I would venture a guess it's not a good scenario, parking a bike long enough for it to look like that on the outside is usually not any different on the inside.
You might be able to spray a can full of penetrating oil up in there and hope that does it, but who knows.
I'll give you this disclaimer on the fill and soak trick: I've never tried it on an airhead, but did it with a Triumph twin and an old Willy's Jeep truck straight six. In the Triumph's case, the engine turned out to be why the bike was parked for a couple decades (broken aluminum connecting rod under one of those stuck pistons) the Jeep I got running again with with no adverse effects.

[rbleau]

I dunno, man. A lot of what I see says "118k", not 18k. If it's only 18k, where's the original windshield? :scratch

Good question. I believe it to be 18k miles for several reasons - it is a local bike, and the owner had 5 BMWs, maybe 4. I have seen his 1970 R75 and his 1965 R60, complete with sidecar. I have seen his R1100RT, and I bought the R100RS. All of this was in his son's garage, as the owner is hospitalized, sadly, and incapacitated and his son is working off Power of Attorney. The owner was a big bike mod guy - my RS has Koni shocks, and the cross over pipe is missing, the ports welded closed.

I just talked with the sellerand he thinks it is only 18k miles. Am looking for more records / data, and I know the local servicing dealer, so I can check there for service records.

We shall see !

Thanks, Ron :dunno

[rbleau]

Well, the left spark plug gave in to the penerating oil, but the right is still fighting me. It turns just a bit but is very tight. I am soaking it periodically, heating with two heat lamps, and occasionally I go out to the shop and take another quarter turn CCW or so. I have no idea of how to tell if bad things are happening.

[rbleau]

Well, yay, the right (starboard for the Marines / Navy in the crowd) sparkplug is out - pen oil and heat lamps and lots of time. The threads in the head, from what little I can see, and the threads on the plug, do not look nearly as bunged up as I expected. Likely can be cleaned up, just guessing. Looks like some type of rubbery black stuff was around the base of the plug - Permatex ? So OK, both plugs are out, and my Kroil is "supposed" to be delivered today.

Cheers / Ron

[BubbaZanetti]

:lurk

[rbleau]

OK, Greetings, fellow motorcycle persons of the BMW persuasion. Big day today.

Parts & Materials: my Kroil came yesterday evening by FEDEX at 6:54 CDT (dark), so I had a pleasant ritual this morning shooting Kroil into the cylinders and about whatever else I could think of, strolling about in my jammies, sipping coffee and blasting away.

Administrative accomplishment: this RS was a Bill of sale purchase; I did the bureaucracy dance, at three Govt offices, roughly each separated by 40 miles, and as of 1600 CDT I had successfully navigated the local Auto registration, the Regional auto reg over in Arlington, TX (Six Flags traffic on a Friday) and the County courthouse, obtained a hearing and I am now the legal title holder and owner of record. Lucky day, no doubt.

Tech notes: Regarding how to unstick a potentially frozen motor, I have read much, and today I thoroughly examined a completely torn down motor and talked with an authoritative source I have found to be reliable. I certainly welcome comments on these topics.

(a) Overfilling idea: the cam is below the crank, and there is a casting, a wall in there. Highly doubtful if the overfill would accomplish the desired result.
(b) Drop pan and spray lube on main bearings - no go, no access.
(c) Push oil into the oil filter exit passageway: unlikely, as it would not get past the oil pump
(d) Turn motor using the allen bolt on the front of the crank - bad move, it lacks the strength and could snap, which would be expensive; better to put in gear and "bump it" using rear wheel, as those components are built to withstand the torque forces of riding the machine.

Today's actual physical progress: With proof of ownership in hand, and the decks cleared, shop rearranged, got under the RS ("her" or "she"), and removed the trans drain plug. Being 60, arthritic and all and not wishing to make too big an event, I just started out with a nice length of pipe extending my Craftsman socket wrench. The drain plug really was not as tight as I expected.

The horror ! I may have made an audible sound of agony - only a few drops of what looked like water came out into the catch pan...wait a few seconds, maybe a couple more drops. Oh oh. This is not good.

Oh well, cleaned the drain plug as something to do while pondering what appeared to be an empty transmission with just a few drops of water in it. Oh well.

I then removed the fill plug for the trans. Huh? oil gushed out ! HUH ???? big stupid look on my face.

Got under her, and shot some pen oil up into the drain hole and a GUSHER occurred with a small amount of water and goodly quantity of oil ~! Wow ~! Like in the movies of the early days of oil exploration - a gusher !

Theory: my theory is that some water settled to the bottom of the transmission and over 20 years formed a "seal" (waxy/clay-like perhaps) which formed a dam or "plug" that broke when I shot the pen oil up there.

My wishful thinking: am hoping the trans is not too heavily damaged, hopefully the water was not high enough to get into importnt parts, and you know - the trans oil really was not very dirty - surprising.

Today's photo: rearranged shop. the R100S on the lift is getting some right (starboard) caliper work done.

Regards / Ron :dance

[rbleau]

1977 R100S, red
1977 R100S, green & black
1977 R100RS, silver blue

A pause for photo op during shop cleanup.

[robsryder]

Well, you might already know this, but water in the transmission isn't a good thing. I purchased (on ebay) a 5-speed transmission which was coupled to the engine block. The transmission / engine block was "frozen".

I separated the transmission from the engine block and made certain the the oil was drained - it was, as there was no oil present. I could not turn the removed transmission by hand.

Using several torches I disassembled the transmission. I discovered the reason that the transmission wouldn't turn. There was a layer of rust on all of the transmission components. This layer of rust looked like water had entered the transmission (likely through the speedo cable port) and existed as a thin layer on top of the oil present.

The rusted gears could not turn as the rusted teeth could not mesh. So, I have a ruined transmission. The case is good, but the gears and other innerds are trash.

Do you plan to disassemble your RS transmission for inspection?

When I purchased my 77RS the first thing that I did when I got home was change the fluids. When the transmission oil came out, so did a finger nail sized piece of metal. I corresponded with Oak who said that the transmission needed to be re-built. I did the re-build after watching the Ed Korn transmission video a few times. I also went to Re-Psycle BMW a few times for some coaching (and for parts). The piece of metal has a broken tooth from an engaging dog on the intermediate shaft. Fortunately Re-Psycle BMW had a good used intermediate shaft.

I was able to complete the transmission re-build (new bearings and seals and up-graded shift kit) and now the transmission works very well.

[rbleau]

Robsmoto - I am completely impressed with your accomplishment (!) - send address so I can send you my transmission ! (Just kidding - sort of).

I found no metal bits in the fluid, gear oil mostly, that came out of the trans, and the magnetic plug really had just a small quantity of metal stuck to it.

My plan is to ascertain if the motor is recoverable reasonably. If it is, then I would definitely have the transmission serviced / gone through, but that is downstream.

So, today was Day Two for firing Kroil into the spark plug hole. My plan is to give it three days, dunno why 3, just seems right.

OK, today I started the hunt for kerosene to flush the transmission. Struck out numerous times until the lightbulb came on in my head - went to Wally world, picked up a quart of kerosene in the camping seciton, Coleman no less, then snagged some Rotella GL-5 gear oil.

Cleaned the threads reasonably well on both the plug and the trans case. I used an ordinary garden hose rubber washer for the drain plug, as a means of retaining the kerosene for a short while. Made a flexible spout out of a cheap funnel that I fit checked with clear tubing from H/W store, that is 5/8th O.D. and 1/2 inch ID, which perfectly fits into the fill port on the transmission. Total cost $1.50 for this tool as I already had a clamp. Did the kerosene flush, and rocked the RS back and forth a bit in neutral, then drained and inspected resulting fluids. did not see anything remarkabe, just dirty kerosene, so saved it in the original container for other uses later. Then hooked up my small air compressor and periodically blew air through the trans to dry it out, in between working on other stuff. After about an hour of this, started loading the Rotella into the trans, where it may do no good but certainly will not harm it further. Used a copper washer as a temp and tightened it lightly - enough so I did not see any gear oil dripping.

OK, other stuff. I removed the battery ground strap and associated bolt, and must sadly report that someone had put a solid bolt in there instead of the factory vented bolt for the trans. Dunno if this is really a big deal, as it would seem that pressure could vent around the speedo cable circumference. Anyway, I just sort of twisted the speedo cable and was surprised to see the speedo indicate about 25 mph ! It did have bad sounds, but hey - it worked ! I used q-tips dipped in Rotella to clean the recess where the speedo cable goes, then put a drop of gear oil in there for the heck of it.

No clue on how to insert more than one photo in this post - anyone have the decoder ring on that ?

Onward ! Cheers / RB
:thumb

[rbleau]

Interestingly, the main crankcase oil appears to have NO water associated with it. Even more interesting, the oil filter is a bright shiny perforated metal, not hinged in any manner, and removal would appear to require removing the starboard exhaust header. Clever. Open to any suggestions here, folks.

Pan is not dropped yet.

Actually, this has been yet another Pajamas Project, conducted at 0030 local time. Might be smart to shower and change jammies lest I create a spousal event, eh ?

Also: Should I run kerosene through the crankcase to flush it ? Thanks / RB :scratch

[crazydrummerdude]

If you're going to remove the filter, who cares if it gets bent? I had the same filter in my R90 when I got it. It now has a hinged one.

You can have multiple pics per post by uploading them to something like photobucket or smugmug and linking to them, instead of attaching them via the MOA forums.

[mymindsok]

Hey!

You found yourself a real nice Beemer and as you probably know, the 77 RS is pretty valuable as well.

The transmight well be crapped out but any smooth case 5-speed can relplace it but the engine is another story. It appears as if you might be looking at a complete rebuild but if I might suggest, rebuilding the original engine would definately be the way to go. OTOH, you might luck up. I know I did at least twice.

AFAIK, replacing the tank should be a no brainer. Any R-100 tank will do and theyre easy and cheap to find.

The last time I did one of those restos, I bought several dead Beemers to part out as doner bikes and ended up with several good transmissions, tanks, sets of wheels, etc, etc, and the sale of unneeded parts helped fund the party.

Anyway... Go slow and do a good job. This should be fun. Expensive but fun!

[robsryder]

The transmission is more likely to have water than the engine. Consider the entry paths for water. Unless the oil fill dipstick is removed from the engine block, there are no direct paths for water entry.

The transmission, however, has an opening at the back of the case where water can (and does!) enter. This opening is where the speedo cable enters the transmission. There is a rubber boot that fits over the cable and around the opening. But, over time the rubber will age and crack. Then the fit isn't so tight. Water can run down the speedo cable and into the transmission.

Many airhead owners will put some waterproof grease (like wheel bearing grease) inside the rubber boot. And some will put a bead of silicone caulk around the top of the rubber boot, making a more secure seal about the cable. Others will take a small zip-tie and place around the top of the boot for a more secure closure about the cable. - Some folks do all three things!

Periodic replacement of the rubber boot is necessary as is periodic replacement of the transmission oil.

- With respect to attachment of multiple photographs - The forum software will only permit uploading of a single photo per post, as you have discovered. If you instead upload the photos to an online location, for example Photobucket.com, then it is possible to add tags to the posting and effectively have multiple photos.

Smugmug.com is another commercial online photo storage service that is favored by many. I use the free photobucket service. In either case you want to find the "IMG code" for an uploaded photo. Copy this bit of code into your posting. Use the "preview post" to ensure that the photos are incorporated into your posting.

Here are a couple of examples from my Photobucket.com account -

Black vinyl coated braded stainless steel brake line used on 77R100RS

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i283/robsmoto/r100rs_brake_line.jpg

This is why it is necessary to block the front of the crank on an airhead when replacing the rear main oil seal (or whenever the flywheel is removed). A shim at the rear of the crankshaft can easily be disturbed off its locating pin. If the shim bends, the crank must be removed to replace - an expensive and somewhat difficult proposition!!!

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i283/robsmoto/shimonpin.jpg

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i283/robsmoto/shimoffpin.jpg

- Note: if you use the "quote" button to this posting you will be able to see the embeded html code with the IMG link.

[rbleau]

Thanks to mymindsok, robsmoto and crazydrummerdude for encouragement and tips. The interest folks show, the support and enthusiasm, and the tips REALLY add to the fun factor for this project !

Had not occurred to me to just whack the filter - that means I would not have to immediately attack the exhaust flange nut ! Yay !

And thanks to several for the muliple image tip.
:dance


robsmoto - is that your RS ? Do you still have it ? Did you have your calipers re-colorized ?

I will definitely use some Bel-Ray grease and maybe a spot tie around the speedo cable booties on my airheads. I intend to not ride in the rain or at night ! If rain is unavoidable, it would be good to have a list of spots that need increases water ingestion protection.

RB

[108625]

Umm,

Unless you have a hinged replacement filter to put back in, the pipe will still be in the way.
But before you pull the old one all the way out, I'd suggest you do what ever engine flush procedure you're going to try with it still in, and then remove it.
Otherwise, you'll just be removing the replacement filter after the engine flush to inspect and probably chuck it, too.
Just a thought... After all, you're still trying to determine if the engine is any good as is.
I wouldn't expect significant water in the engine either, apart from condensation; but a little can do a lot, over time. Even good old fashioned air causes oxidation, too.

[robsryder]

...robsmoto - is that your RS ? Do you still have it ? Did you have your calipers re-colorized ?...

The photos are of my 77 R100RS and I do still have it.

I disassembled my calipers during my re-do. The outside of the caliper was very faded as is common. But the inside area (after removing the piston) was unfaded. I bought several cans of spray paint from my local NAPA store in a range of shades that I thought were close to the original caliper color.

I cut apart an empty coke can and sprayed test areas on the bare aluminum surface. I let my wife pick out the closest color match to the unfaded part of the caliper. As I recall the color was Midnight Blue.

The calipers were thoroughly cleaned and given a re-spray. I like the way that they turned out. The photo below shows the painted calipers. You will note that there is some brake dust present as this picture was recently taken (several years after the re-do).


http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i283/robsmoto/77RS-ATEcaliper.jpg

[rbleau]

Howdy from Texas ! Several amazing things happened today:

1) the wind stopped blowing
2) the sun came out and temps were 75 degrees F
3) the R100RS cooperated with my TLC

OK, first I piddled around a bit, thinking through what I wanted to do and in what order. Loosening the aft (rear) two bolts on the deep sump oil pan was interesting - neither my wrench nor socket would fit on the 10mm bolt heads due to proximity to the sump wall and cooling fins. Aha ! I got the small 10mm Heyco tool from the factory tool kit, and that worked nicely.

I added a couple ounces more GL5 to the trans and buttoned it up. Big test - will she go into gear ? Answer - YES ! Up into 2nd gear. I stopped there, not wanting to push my luck, although folks tell me to try to get it into top gear, or at least 4th for "bumping".

Then I pulled the valve covers and was pleased they came off readily, and the nuts even had the thin BMW washers - amazing. When I separated the starboard (right) valve cover, yes, oil dripped out - definitely a good sign. No signs of water. Same for the port (left) cyl valve cover, although only a small quantity of oil came out of that one. So with valve covers off, I shot more Kroil down the pushrod tubes, around the valve stems and into the cylinders.

While the Kroil was working, I decided that today I would try to bump it. While thinking about that (actually at age 60 I notice it is extremely easy to have the mind just wander off somtimes - I need to leash that sucker) and just for something to do, I got out my exhaust flange wrench sent me by an old friend on the West Coast, Foxman, and to my complete amazement - I would have lost money on a bet on this one - BOTH exhaust flange nuts came loose without any severe grunt required - I just used a piece of thick wall PVC as an extender to lift up on the port side, and my foot to push down on the starboard side. Success.

OK, now comes show time - enlisted the assistance of my bride, straddled the machine, got her moving forward while holding the clutch in, released clutch - nohing but the rear tire sliding on the shop concrete. Did this a few more times and then it happened ! I saw the port (left) intake valve move towards the open position (into the head) ! Eureka ! I and my bride repeated this , rocking fore and aft, and it moved again !

I decided to quit for the day, the sun was going down, and I need to learn some more. That means - I need to understand the order of things moving, and predict what will move or happen next - pre planned eyeball lock. Suggestions and tips are most welcome and invited !

Not a bad day.

Cheers / Ron

[rbleau]

Here is a pic of the starboard head.

[rbleau]

Possible - looks like - some rust on the left intake rocker assembly.

[rbleau]

Just thought I would throw in an overall portrait of the barn bike. Note to Pete in Prosper - if you are reading this - come get the carbs !

[kstoo]

Some previous pictures and reports of yours were really scary like the rotten tank and the trans water plug. Today is a lot better. The rocker box pictures do not look like 118,000 miles. They look amazingly clean except for that little rust fungus.
When you were bumping it you had the spark plugs out, right? Just a dumb question.

:lurk

[rbleau]

Some previous pictures and reports of yours were really scary like the rotten tank and the trans water plug. Today is a lot better. The rocker box pictures do not look like 118,000 miles. They look amazingly clean except for that little rust fungus.
When you were bumping it you had the spark plugs out, right? Just a dumb question.

:lurk

Yessir - plugs out.

[robsryder]

I believe that I'd keep adding a penetrating oil to the spark plug holes. The frozen engine could be rings rusted to the cylinder wall (I had an old Honda 305 superhawk engine like that once - I ended up tossing the cylinder and pistons). We've already discussed the possible transmission corrosion issue.

If you can get the bike into neutral, can you rotate the rear wheel? If you can rotate the rear wheel you will have more confidence that your transmission is not "frozen".

[rbleau]

I believe that I'd keep adding a penetrating oil to the spark plug holes. The frozen engine could be rings rusted to the cylinder wall (I had an old Honda 305 superhawk engine like that once - I ended up tossing the cylinder and pistons). We've already discussed the possible transmission corrosion issue.

If you can get the bike into neutral, can you rotate the rear wheel? If you can rotate the rear wheel you will have more confidence that your transmission is not "frozen".

Yup - goes into neutral and rotates fine.

:wave

[DennisDarrow]

Just a thought..........Tie, strap or whatever the horizontal brace of your center stand to your front wheel and tighten up good, or to the bottom of the fork. This will allow you to bump the rear wheel, especially in 5th while on the center stand.
Saves it being a 2 person job while you just want to turn it over. Should be loose enough soon to use the rotor with an Allen type wrench.

PLEASE NEVER USE THE NUT ON THE FRONT OF THE CAM.......dont even know if yours has points/cent. advance but that nut is a great temptation to use to turn over the engine; but strips easily..........GOOD WORK by the way......God blesses us old guys so much doesnt he...........Dennis

[crazydrummerdude]

Exhaust. It's a typical 4-stroke. Nothing fancy.

I'd do what Dennis said.. strap the centerstand forward so it won't collapse on you when you're lifting the rear, bump the transmission up into 5th, and rotate the rear wheel. (This is the same version of the procedure for valve clearance checking/adjusting. You watch the valves while you rotate the rear wheel (or the allen bolt) and wait for it to get to TDC, which you verify on the side of the flywheel "OT" in the little window on the left side of the engine.)

Maybe I dive into things, but as soon as I got the bike and changed out the fluids, I'd just hook it up to a battery charger and hit the starter button for a split second and see if it rotated anything... then proceed from there.

[sumran]

After you have lubed the valves and cylinders and rotated it by hand, I expect you will put in fresh oil, to get rid of any solvents you have put in the engine.

If you deny it fuel and spark (ground the plugs to kill spark) you can use the starter to rotate the engine, without building too much speed. Leaving the plugs in will save a potential mess and slow the rotation. The starter will spin the oil pump enough to circulate oil through the engine. You need to be sure you have enough lubrication in the cylinders to prevent damage.

I would fill it with cheap light oil first, circulate it well using the starter and drain that well before I tried to run the motor. Then I would refill with a decent dino oil, circulate again using the starter, then give it gas and spark and start the bike. I would change the oil and the filter within 100 miles.

You will probably need a large capacity battery to do this and take care to avoid overheating the starter motor.

I'm not sure that is the best way to go about things, but it is how I would approach it.

[AntonLargiader]

My perspective might be a bit skewed since I have the tools and so forth here, but halfway solutions don't help in the long run:

1) If the engine is/was actually seized, getting it to turn over is somewhat academic. The top end needs to come apart since the cylinder walls are damaged. That will probably lead to a rebore, which means new pistons. New Nikasil cylinders are a worthwhile upgrade, but much more expensive.

2) Since the heads will be off, pull the valves and inspect.

3) if the tranny had water sitting in it, it needs to come apart, period. How it shifts now is immaterial.

4) Pulling the tranny means you're going to be looking at the clutch so you will probably want to renew the rear main seal and oil pump O-ring.

5) At that point you may as well replace the oil pan gasket (if it's the old cork one that's squeezing out at the sides) and possibly upgrade the sump and pickup head to the '81-on design.

The bottom end itself is probably fine, so no need to dig deeper. With the above items addressed, you should have the basis for a strong runner that's good for 100k miles.

[sumran]

My perspective might be a bit skewed since I have the tools and so forth here, but halfway solutions don't help in the long run:

1) If the engine is/was actually seized, getting it to turn over is somewhat academic. The top end needs to come apart since the cylinder walls are damaged. That will probably lead to a rebore, which means new pistons. New Nikasil cylinders are a worthwhile upgrade, but much more expensive.

2) Since the heads will be off, pull the valves and inspect.

3) if the tranny had water sitting in it, it needs to come apart, period. How it shifts now is immaterial.

4) Pulling the tranny means you're going to be looking at the clutch so you will probably want to renew the rear main seal and oil pump O-ring.

5) At that point you may as well replace the oil pan gasket (if it's the old cork one that's squeezing out at the sides) and possibly upgrade the sump and pickup head to the '81-on design.

The bottom end itself is probably fine, so no need to dig deeper. With the above items addressed, you should have the basis for a strong runner that's good for 100k miles.

Thanks for posting. Always glad to see your input. Would you take the same approach if the motor was not seized? The OP did not know if it was frozen or not. If it was stuck, but broke loose without much trouble, would there be a high risk additional damage by running the bike for a while, as opposed to reboring and replacing pistons immediately? If, after pulling the heads, the cylinder walls looked clean, would it be reasonable to reseal the top end and get some more miles out of the top end before rebuilding?:ear

[crazydrummerdude]

Anton's got the skills and experience, but I will throw my young, dumb, devils-advocate advice into the ring; re-boring isn't always necessary.

We've got tractors, old engines, and my R90, that were seized for decades but were cleaned up and run fine now without reboring or new pistons. In some cases, we were able to even save the old rings and re-use them.

[rbleau]

Howdy - some great inputs. I need a good definition of "stuck" or "seized". I did not try to rotate the crank until 3 days worth of Kroil and then it moved without that much difficulty, 3 or four push tries, and in 2nd gear no less.

I've also been distracted by the right caliper on my '77 R100S - different bike. Maybe a new thread ?

OK - I've spent 2 days thinking about this RS, and I believe I have figured out, with help from others, a method to prelube some bearings.

Attached is a foto of a grease gun tip I bought from PepBoys. P/N 548769. It is perfect for the swingarm bearings, I use Bel Ray Grease, but it also occurs to me that I could pull the oil pressure switch, load oil into my grease gun, use the tip, and fire some lube right up to the mains and the cam bearings, based upon looking at the oil galley flows in a BMW pub courtest of Orbitangel.

Thoughts on the lube plan ? :scratch

I could do the starter switch thing, but I want to first exhaust other methods for pre-oil.

Thank you in advance / RB

[rbleau]

My perspective might be a bit skewed since I have the tools and so forth here, but halfway solutions don't help in the long run:

1) If the engine is/was actually seized, getting it to turn over is somewhat academic. The top end needs to come apart since the cylinder walls are damaged. That will probably lead to a rebore, which means new pistons. New Nikasil cylinders are a worthwhile upgrade, but much more expensive.

2) Since the heads will be off, pull the valves and inspect.

3) if the tranny had water sitting in it, it needs to come apart, period. How it shifts now is immaterial.

4) Pulling the tranny means you're going to be looking at the clutch so you will probably want to renew the rear main seal and oil pump O-ring.

5) At that point you may as well replace the oil pan gasket (if it's the old cork one that's squeezing out at the sides) and possibly upgrade the sump and pickup head to the '81-on design.

The bottom end itself is probably fine, so no need to dig deeper. With the above items addressed, you should have the basis for a strong runner that's good for 100k miles.

Thanks - I do not have a fine understanding of the "seized" definition. This is my first dive into wrenching on BMWs, and is a learning experience & activity for a recent retiree from Aerospace Engineering (Skunkworks).

I fully intend to pull the tranny, and have a local shop go over it. But first I would (or should ?) like to see if I can get the motor to start.

Have already purchased an oil pan gasket - I intend to pull that, inspect it, clean pickup etc and put fresh oil in prior to hitting the starter button. Please see my prior inquiry as to methods of pre-lubing the bearings.

Thanks again - I am a novice, age 60 no less, so....please excuse ignorance. I also suffer from Engineer's Disease - I have a need to understand things in my brain housing group.
:whistle

[mbelectric]

three words:

leak down test.

MB>

[rbleau]

three words:

leak down test.

MB>

Good point. Thanks. Inexpensive and produces data.

[mbelectric]

Good point. Thanks. Inexpensive and produces data.

And by the way, good luck on the resurrection.

My 90S I rescued from the trash pile in 1980 and still running today.

MB>

[mikeb921]

It never ceases to amaze me how some of the new generation of airhead owners are on the lookout for short cuts to put a "barn find" back in service. Anton L gave some splendid advice on what should be done but that seems to be swept by the wayside by "what kind of magical cocktail can I pour down the spark plug hole" to make this engine turn over. When an airhead engine is taken out of service, one side of the engine is probably pre combustion or post combustion with the valves closed. The other side is wide open to the elements. Depending on where the piston is (top or bottom of stroke) the cylinder walls are partially or totally exposed. This is the side that will have a bountiful harvest of rust. Rust, being one of natures most abrasive substances, will wreak havic in just a few revolutions. Airheads are "Engines 101". You'd be hard pressed to find a simpler engine to work on. Two pistons and 4 valves. Pull the darn top end apart. Cleaning and evaluating an airhead top end will pay big dividends in the long haul. If the bores look decent, run a "dingleberry" down it and take a measurement. Re-ring it. De-coke the combustion area. Resurface the valves and check the seats. Replace the pushrod seals and all top end gaskets. The bottom ends of these engines do well sitting because they're so well sealed from the elements. Ask questions here. You can get so many miles and years out of an airhead, you'll grow tired of it before you wear it out. There is a right way and an easy way, only the current owner can make that choice.

MB

[sumran]

It never ceases to amaze me how some of the new generation of airhead owners...MB

There isn't an airhead on your list of bikes.:stick You need to add one so you can help us newbies get up to snuff. I am sure your approach is the best practice, although cost is a factor in the decision sometimes. The best long-term solution may not be possible.

I have no idea what the situation is for rbleau's bike or budget. I expect he will have a happy ending since he is proceeding with caution and reasonable expectations.

[rbleau]

It never ceases to amaze me how some of the new generation of airhead owners are on the lookout for short cuts to put a "barn find" back in service. Anton L gave some splendid advice on what should be done but that seems to be swept by the wayside by "what kind of magical cocktail can I pour down the spark plug hole" to make this engine turn over. When an airhead engine is taken out of service, one side of the engine is probably pre combustion or post combustion with the valves closed. The other side is wide open to the elements. Depending on where the piston is (top or bottom of stroke) the cylinder walls are partially or totally exposed. This is the side that will have a bountiful harvest of rust. Rust, being one of natures most abrasive substances, will wreak havic in just a few revolutions. Airheads are "Engines 101". You'd be hard pressed to find a simpler engine to work on. Two pistons and 4 valves. Pull the darn top end apart. Cleaning and evaluating an airhead top end will pay big dividends in the long haul. If the bores look decent, run a "dingleberry" down it and take a measurement. Re-ring it. De-coke the combustion area. Resurface the valves and check the seats. Replace the pushrod seals and all top end gaskets. The bottom ends of these engines do well sitting because they're so well sealed from the elements. Ask questions here. You can get so many miles and years out of an airhead, you'll grow tired of it before you wear it out. There is a right way and an easy way, only the current owner can make that choice.

MB

MikeB - I believe I understand your points and frustration, and I certainly respect Anton's advice and credentials.

Some methods are unquestionably better. I am trading "better" versus "good enough".

I am new to wrenching BMWs to this degree, but I did own my first one a while back, an 1960 R60 I bought from Irv Seaver himself in May 1972. And have enjoyed several over the years - 1974 R90/6, 1983 R65LS, 2000 R1100RS and then I decided I prefer the style, design, ride and servicability of the so-called "airheads".

I believe your key point is that trying to see if she will run may well do enough additional damage to not be worth the exercise, due to rust in the cylinders. Now that is a very useful input. Got a borescope I can borrow ?

I've already been told by friends I was a fool to get this R100RS, however I bought it as a learning tool, and I have hope that I can also get her on the road some day.

The range of suggestions on this forum is great and pretty much covers from one end to the other - from kick the tires and light the fires on the one hand, to complete teardown on the other.


Any thoughts about my pre-oil ideas for going in through the oil pressure port ?

Thanks. / RB

[robsryder]

...I bought it as a learning tool, and I have hope that I can also get her on the road some day....
..
Any thoughts about my pre-oil ideas for going in through the oil pressure port ?


I would not fool with the pre-oil through the oil pressure port.

If you are going to learn, then why not dive in? Firstly, take a lot of photos. Go ahead and remove the exhaust system and bodywork. Put the bodywork somewhere out of the way. If it is going to be repaired / painted, may as well get that part of the project underway. (When I got my bodywork painted I asked for the price range, including repairs and pinstriping. The painter said $1000 to $1500. I asked for the higher price range on the condition that he take his time and do a careful job. The painter just looked at me a while and said that he wished he had more customers like that. Most folks are in a rush to get stuff done. After he'd finished the painting, I paid him and requested that he store to parts for a while longer. Six months later I went and picked up the body parts when I was ready to re-assemble).

Then proceed with the dismantlement. Pull the transmission. (I'd send it to someone experienced rather than local, unless "local" is experienced.)

Pull the heads, cylinders, and piston. Remove the clutch. Block the crank and remove the flywheel.

You may need to replace cylinders - start thinking about nikisil or looking for good used pre-nikisil ones. Now is a good time to consider valve seats that can handle unleaded gas. Same comment regarding sending to someone experienced in the work over local.

You will be spending a good deal of money on parts. You can save a lot if you order from someplace like Chicago BMW that discounts. You'll need to do a lot of work getting the correct part numbers and ordering on-line (I'd follow up with a phone call afterwards to ensure getting the discount). You might be saving hundreds of dollars, but you'll also need to be prepared to wait a month or more for the parts.

You might want to join the Airheads club (airheads.org) and sign up for the airlist. There is a lot of good technical advice (sometimes) on the airlist. Use the delete key to adjust the signal-to-noise ratio.
http://airheads.org/
http://micapeak.com/mailman/listinfo/Airheads/

As I mentioned, it took me a couple of years to go all over my bike. I did much of the work myself. If you want to learn, there are some videos from CycleWorks that are instructive (even if you are not going to do the work).
http://www.cycleworks.net/videos.htm

I bought a soda blaster (and soda media) to aid in the cleaning process. Sand blasting can result in engine damage down the road.
http://www.ace-sandblasting.com/soda-blasting.html

Take lots of pictures. Don't worry about screwing up (too much). Post often. (The pictures will be invaluable during re-assembly). Holler if you need help. (I've got some photos that are annotated as to the routing of the cables around the handlebars - this took a while to figure out.)

[rbleau]

My thanks to robsmoto, mikeb921, anton, sumran & crazydrummer ...all good tips.
:thumb

In 1975, I found a stored 1961 R27 for which I basically just kicked the tires and lit the fires, and I greatly enjoyed that bike.
That was when I was in Ca and the personalized plates just came out, so I snagged a plate that said BMWR27 - six letters. Hope that bike is still around; may still have that lic plate on it.

Cheers / RB

[mikeb921]

There isn't an airhead on your list of bikes.:stick You need to add one so you can help us newbies get up to snuff. I am sure your approach is the best practice, although cost is a factor in the decision sometimes. The best long-term solution may not be possible.


I don't have an airhead at the moment but I've owned 3 in the past. R69S, R90S, and a R100RT. I read about you guys airhead projects here daily in total jealousy. I know I'll have another one someday. I also know there are budget concerns and skill level concerns. All I'm really saying is, while you own your bike, you are the custodian of a wonderfully engineered piece of German craftsmanship and it deserves the best you can give it. If money is the problem, stretch it out over a longer period of time. If skills are the problem, all you have to do is ask. Most airhead Guru's are more than happy to share their knowledge and many would be glad to lend a hand or a tool. If anyone lives in the Orlando area, I would be happy to help out. I surely don't know everything, but I do know these things respond very well to a good and careful owner. I logged 165k miles on my R69S over a period of 13 years. It had 35k miles when I got it, so it had about 200k miles when I traded it. Airheads are great engines to learn how to wrench on. Good luck to all and happy wrenching.

MB

[88bmwJeff]

Some methods are unquestionably better. I am trading "better" versus "good enough".

Thanks. / RB

RB, there's been a lot of discussion what you should and should not before firing up the engine. While I'm not a novice, I'm not an expert either. If it were my bike, I would pull the heads and cylinders off and take a look first (you did find a small bit of rust already on the rocker arms). If everything looked good, I'd just put it back together with new gaskets. It's really not that difficult to remove and replace the cylinders and heads. The first time around will take you longer, but even still you should be able to R/R the jugs in about 2 hrs each. You're going to want to replace those old gaskets anyway, since they're most likely going to leak especially those old rubber ones (e.g. pushrod seals). With the cylinders off, I would then pull the tappets (cam followers), and check those out as well as the cam shaft.

If everything looked good from the above, I would then R/R the oil pan, rear main seal, oil pump O ring. The seals at the front ends of the crank and cam shaft will probably need to be replaced as well. If the bottom end and cylinders looked good, then I'd probably pass on pulling the timing chain cover, but if the cylinders looked bad, then I'd want to pull the timing chain cover and take a look first.

After doing all the above (among other things), I would then be tempted to give the engine an attempt at starting.

This is my $0.02 on doing what would be "good enough" before hitting the starter button.

[108625]

Rbleau,

I have a few questions, that may help you, help us, to help you (if that makes sense):

1. How much do you want to learn?

I mean, if you learn the shade tree stuff some of us suggested and it works, you will learn that and very little of the more complex complete overhaul stuff.

If you really want to learn how to take it apart and put it back together again, and dive right in, you may never learn how to do the shade tree stuff; in danger of being the guy who can overhaul, but can't diagnose.

You could gamble on the first option as a learning experience, and then proceed with the second regardless, (or have it forced upon you anyway) if you really want an education.

2. How much are you willing to commit?

If this was an unbudgeted impulse buy, you could be throwing a LOT of money and time into it. It's easy to run out of, or reach the limit of your willingness to spend any more of, one, the other, or both.
Will it be a few hundred, or several thousand $?
A few evenings and weekends, or all of them?

3. What do you want out of this bike?

It's obvious you already aren't lacking for airheads, including another RS. When the finished product is something you already have, finishing it can be somewhat anti-climactic. So is it the bike, or the experience?
If it's the bike, do you want a totally overhauled and restored airhead, or just to see an old bike brought back to life, as close to original as possible?
If it's the experience, how much of it do you want; a taste, or the whole enchilada?

Personally, I'd suggest answering question #3, then #2, before question #1.

[mikeb921]

MikeB - I believe I understand your points and frustration, and I certainly respect Anton's advice and credentials.




Any thoughts about my pre-oil ideas for going in through the oil pressure port ?

Thanks. / RB

I'm not sure but I think the oil would most likely go back to the oil pan (least resistance) unless you can find a way to plug that passage. I've never heard of anyone doing this but it sounds good in theory. I'd be more worried about the top end.

MB

[sumran]

I don't have an airhead at the moment but I've owned 3 in the past. R69S, R90S, and a R100RT. I read about you guys airhead projects here daily in total jealousy. I know I'll have another one someday. I also know there are budget concerns and skill level concerns. All I'm really saying is, while you own your bike, you are the custodian of a wonderfully engineered piece of German craftsmanship and it deserves the best you can give it. If money is the problem, stretch it out over a longer period of time. If skills are the problem, all you have to do is ask. Most airhead Guru's are more than happy to share their knowledge and many would be glad to lend a hand or a tool. If anyone lives in the Orlando area, I would be happy to help out. I surely don't know everything, but I do know these things respond very well to a good and careful owner. I logged 165k miles on my R69S over a period of 13 years. It had 35k miles when I got it, so it had about 200k miles when I traded it. Airheads are great engines to learn how to wrench on. Good luck to all and happy wrenching.

MB

I lived in Orlando most of my life and now live in Gainesville. I hope to meet you someday soon. Perhaps at a tech day when youv'e found your next airhead. You are right about the willingness of the community to help. It is my favorite part of owning an airhead.

[rbleau]

Rbleau,

I have a few questions, that may help you, help us, to help you (if that makes sense):

1. How much do you want to learn?

I mean, if you learn the shade tree stuff some of us suggested and it works, you will learn that and very little of the more complex complete overhaul stuff.

If you really want to learn how to take it apart and put it back together again, and dive right in, you may never learn how to do the shade tree stuff; in danger of being the guy who can overhaul, but can't diagnose.

You could gamble on the first option as a learning experience, and then proceed with the second regardless, (or have it forced upon you anyway) if you really want an education.

2. How much are you willing to commit?

If this was an unbudgeted impulse buy, you could be throwing a LOT of money and time into it. It's easy to run out of, or reach the limit of your willingness to spend any more of, one, the other, or both.
Will it be a few hundred, or several thousand $?
A few evenings and weekends, or all of them?

3. What do you want out of this bike?

It's obvious you already aren't lacking for airheads, including another RS. When the finished product is something you already have, finishing it can be somewhat anti-climactic. So is it the bike, or the experience?
If it's the bike, do you want a totally overhauled and restored airhead, or just to see an old bike brought back to life, as close to original as possible?
If it's the experience, how much of it do you want; a taste, or the whole enchilada?

Personally, I'd suggest answering question #3, then #2, before question #1.

3. What do you want out of this bike ?

This one: just to see an old bike brought back to life, as close to original as possible

2. How much are you willing to commit ?

Time is plentiful. Money - $2000. Excluding cosmetics.

1. How much do you want to learn ?

Using Snowbum's guide, I would like to strive to emerge from Beginner Group, and ease into Low-Middle group. "Maybe" get to Middle group in a few years.
Special tools, machine work et al I will leave to people who are NOT doing it the first time. The old learning curve thing. The virtue of this machine is that I did not pay a huge amount much for it, and if it is a disaster - ruined bottom end or what not - or if I just get overhwhelmed - I can turn it over to a better home.

General maintenance & light repair - I would like to be fully competent.

Repair work & overhaul: probably still what folks might call light.

Minor correction to above: I do NOT have another RS. I do have a R100/7 and two R100S models, all are year 1977.

Cheers / RB:thumb

[rbleau]

Removed oil pan - sparkly stuff on the bottom but no chunks of metal. Sparkly stuff did not respond to a magnet, so prob aluminum. Underside of motor looked clean and good, no rust. Thoughts ? Notice where I wiped my finger in the pan - not a heavy sludge, fairly light.

[mikeb921]

rbleau,

I don't see anything scarey in that photo. There would be even less smudge in there if the oil had been up to operating temps when drained. You're on the right track. Continue onward nice and slow. Now, clean up that oil pan, go over it with some nice metal polish and put it on the shelf until you're ready to reinstall.You being a retired Aerospace Engineer, believe me, you will NOT get in over your head.

Mike B

[rbleau]

Here is a foto of the underside of the engine just after dropping the pan.

[crazydrummerdude]

I don't see anything scary in there.

Have you taken the heads off yet?

[rbleau]

Nathan - nope, heads not off yet - probably tomorrow, as an airhead friend is coming over.

The sparkle in the oil pan is not a good sign - turns out the rod beaings are not magnetic, and there should be no sparkle.

We shall see where this takes us - there is no way of finding out why the bike was parked. / RB

[rbleau]

Carbs off. Very cruddy. Here is the left intake port.

[rbleau]

right intake port

[rbleau]

1. Unhook carbs
2. Airbox / filter
3. Starter cover
4. Battery & tray out
5. Right muffler
6. Left Rocker assembly
7. Right Rocker assembly
8. Left head
9. Right head
10. Tire bumps
a. Note: Left jug & piston moved together; near TDC, right piston moved freely within cylinder
b. Went past TDC, retracting left piston & jug to case wall
c. Last tire bump freed left piston
11. Fairing lowers
12. Fairing grill
13. Alternator cover
14. Final drive drain bolt stuck – 19mm - applied Kroil & left
15. Drained driveshaft
a. White paste in drive shaft fluid

[rbleau]

Air box

[rbleau]

left head - note stuck pipe

[rbleau]

here's a job - left piston

[rbleau]

Here is Pete assisting with identification

[rbleau]

Better than the left. I think bike was stored on the sidestand !

[rbleau]

Not too cruddy

[rbleau]

Nice surprise -

[rbleau]

Last Chance Garage finale for today - no, that is not me making a face, that is Pete. All this work was done today WITHOUT BEER, - BUT ! - with good Texas BBQ.

:dance

[kstoo]

Wow, I thought that the picture of the left piston was scary and then I saw Pete!!

[rbleau]

Yup - did it again - went out in my jammies to pursue an idea on the stuck 19mm drain bolt for the rear drive - got out my squeeze bulb suck-o-matic and extracted much nasty stuff from the rear drive from the fill hole; shot Kroil in; repeated; applied some torque to drain plug and she broke free ! Yay ! A fitting final finale to a productive day.

The RS sits proudly on the Last Chance Garage lift, drips pans surrounding her.

Marilyn approves.
:dance

[robsryder]

The aluminum bits will clean up quite well with a soda blaster.

If you are replacing your cylinders, pistons, and rings with good used items then there is little need to clean up the old stuff.

I 'spect that you'll be needing new valve guides when you drive that rusty valve out. May as well get the valve seats for unleaded gas while you are at it.

I'll be eagerly awaiting subsequent posts and photos of your progress. I did not replace the valve guides or seats on my RS heads. I did remove the valves and soak the heads for a while (several days) in Gunk's HydroSeal II. That removed the carbon. I lapped the valve seats.

I discovered upon reassembly and running for a bit that the left cylinder head had gotten a bit warped (from a previous owner). This warpage didn't affect running of the bike, but did allow a wee bit of oil to pass through the hole for the top head stud - there is not direct pathway for oil to get to this point.

I pulled the left head and checked the surface using a piece of plate glass with some fine grit sandpaper. It was easy to see the high spots (that had a shine) and the low spots (that were dull). After about an hour of back and forth and round and round (and about six pieces of sandpaper) the surface of the head had an even shine.

Re-assembly revealed that the warpage was gone as was the oil leak through the top stud.

[rbleau]

I'll have to check out a soda blaster (!)

OK - how do I determine the condition of the rod and main bearings and other engine internals like seals ? I notice many folk do not go into the bottom end. Is there some definitive method for checking that stuff ? Thanks in advance / RB

[mikeb921]

rbleau,

You could use "Plastigage" on the rod bearings. If you're not familiar with it you can "Google" it and find out about it and how it's used. The main bearings should be in similar condition. I think the connecting rod bolts are "one time" use, someone correct me if I'm wrong. As for the seals, you should definately replace them. Even if they're sealing now, they will probably fail soon after you put the bike in service. Looking at your photos, it looks like the left side had open valves when the bike was taken out of service. Oh how I envy you, what a great project.

Ride Safe
MB

[AntonLargiader]

If there's no evidence of corrosion inside the case or of oil starvation, I would leave the bottom end alone. There's just no real reason to go deeper. You can look at the sludge in the bottom of the oil pan (some sludge is quite normal) to see if there might be a bearing problem. If not, just count your blessings and maybe go in as far as the timing chain on the front and the rear main seal on the back.

If there is a conrod bearing problem you would see it when you remove the conrod. In that case you will probably be in for a full-on engine rebuild.

[pschuyler]

Ok, I'm Pete that guy helping Ron with the barn Bike. I feel I must chime in, given my goofy picture is now spread through the forum.

Ron and I have been swapping stories, bikes, bar-b-que and good times talking and working on German steel since last year. The current barn bike project, corpse, is much fun to look at and work on.

The Kroil that was recommended has done wonders to this old barn beauty queen. We started to srtip down parts this weekend, and everything came off without trouble. The only item that needed a little extra work was the final drive drain plug, and even after Ron sprayed Kroil on that, she came off.

I'm posting a picture of the carb cleaning/rebuild I'm doing for Ron. I hope to post a more in depth slide show of how to re-install the enricher/choke correctly, since there is confusion on how to do this in other manuals.

[rbleau]

Left side photo

[rbleau]

View of port cyl

[rbleau]

? What do you think of condition ?

[rbleau]

headerstill stuck; cut muffler off. kroil in play.

[rbleau]

This one is in better shape

[rbleau]

Looking better

[rbleau]

Worked on this one a bit today - Bar Sol

[crazydrummerdude]

People are going to tell you to replace the cylinders or at least bore them out.

Wipe the crap out, hone them, and report back.. before spending big bucks.

[rbleau]

OK, well the last picture showed the better side, didn't it !

More work to do. But I am concerned about the sparklies in the oil pan - worst case the oil galleys and all bearings are infiltrated with metal bits, which implies a block boil total rebuild - is the bike WORTH THAT MUCH dough ? recall that nose to tail is all needing rebuild - bearings, calipers,...to rear bearings and drive.

need to mull this over a bit.

[Roguetek]

Nope. it's garbage... you should give it to me....

[mikeb921]

Still looks like a fun project to me. As bad as those photos make things look, you really can't tell anything without cleaning things up and taking measurements. You need to engrave the parts, ie, right piston, right intake valve etc. Wire wheel the pistons and valves, run a dingleberry through the cylinders (with plenty of lubrication) and take the stuff to a good machine shop that knows air cooled engines along with your shop manual (for specs). Have them do the measurements and advise on condition. If you still want to verify bearings, do the plastigage. This will let you measure clearance and do a visual inspection of the crank (rod journals anyway). Is it worth a total resoration? It would be to me. A first year RS ( the photos look very original). Nothing like the feeling you get from riding and showing a bike you did yourself. I'm sending you a PM with my contact info. I would love to have a conversation with you about this project.

Ride Safe
MB

[sumran]

It depends on what you mean by worth it. If you rebuild everything from nose to tail with new parts then sell the bike, you will lose lots of money. What value do you attach to the satisfaction of getting the bike back on the road? How much will you ride it and for how many years? In the end, it is subjective and it is your time and money that is on the line.

I would plan on new rings and at least hone the cylinders and measure them for wear. I would probably rebore them. I would have the heads reworked. Others will have a different outlook. After reading the thread, I suspect you have a good idea of what you can live with and that you have fairly high expectations for the finished project.

I think you approaching it the right way. Go as far as you can without spending money, gather data and keep your options open. I hope you fix it, since I am enjoying your thread.:lurk

[535is]

I hope you fix it, since I am enjoying your thread.:lurk
X2! :thumb

[88bmwJeff]

OK, well the last picture showed the better side, didn't it !

More work to do. But I am concerned about the sparklies in the oil pan - worst case the oil galleys and all bearings are infiltrated with metal bits, which implies a block boil total rebuild - is the bike WORTH THAT MUCH dough ? recall that nose to tail is all needing rebuild - bearings, calipers,...to rear bearings and drive.

need to mull this over a bit.

Well, this is not the best of news, but I wouldn't write off the project quite yet. Clearly, this will not be a quick turn around project. But, the bike is mostly there. If the bottom end is toast, then I would suggest getting a used bottom end. They are relatively inexpensive (compared to rebuilding the bottom end). You've got three other bikes to ride, so enjoy those while you get work on this one. As suggested, I would clean up the parts, and take them to a qualified expert.

This might be an odd temporary solution, but if you're dying to have an RS to ride, you can transplant the engine and transmission from one of your other bikes to the RS while you rebuild the RS's. Just trying to think outside the box here.

It's your time and money, so there's only so much "advice" we can give you here. Only you can decide how much time and money you're willing to spend on a project. My last suggestion is that try selling the bike as a project before parting out, if you decide not to put any more time and effort into the RS.

[108625]

rbleau,

Clean the cylinders and inspect them before doing anything abrasive. Any scoring, or actual pitting from rust? If not, is there a ridge near the top, where the upper ring land stops moving at TDC?
Are they out of round, near the bottom of the stroke, where the most lateral force is exerted on the piston? There did not appear to be significant signs of blow-by on the pistons; 'though they both had some light scuffing, the port side looking worst. Seeing it near the rings, instead of the skirts, can be a sign of overheating or lack of oil (why is the question). Is that top ring on the port piston stuck?

Can you feel any play in the piston wrist pin to upper con rod relationship? How about the crank journal end of the rods? How does the crank rotate, now that you've eliminated the friction of the pistons in the bores? It's difficult to feel any slop in the main bearings, but sometimes you can see excess fore and aft play by actuating the clutch.

My top three thoughts on the source of your oil pan "sparklies" would be:
1. Those scuffed pistons (let's hope so, it's the easiest fix).
2. Bearings ('though I've not seen them leave fine "filings" like that before).
3. Your oil pump. Excessive end play can let the rotating gear chew into the aluminum housing behind it. Look for tell-tale circles when you remove the gear, if you do. This could be bad, or worse. Bad would be the pump couldn't keep up the pressure, the oil light flickered, and the bike was parked before worse harm was done. Worse would be the light wasn't noticed or paid attention too, and the bike wasn't parked until worse damage forced it to be.

You could keep disassembling until you find the source and fix it; but if those cylinders aren't bad after cleanup, I'd be tempted to put it all back together and try to start it. You may still have to take it apart again for a thorough overhaul, but you might be able to diagnose the problem first, and besides, what further harm could it do, if you're going to rebuild it anyway?
You never know, you might be pleasantly surprised.

If worst comes to worst, considering the condition of everything else, it would tempt me to pull the RS body work, repaint it, and put it on the /7. Then you can sell what's left of the RS to one of these die-hards who swears it's worth it, or part it out, or keep it around to tinker with and learn from over the course of several years, which would help keep the costs from stinging so hard all at once... and the safest place to store the bodywork may just be bolted to another bike.

Bob

[rbleau]

Well, thanks to all - plenty to digest ! Lots of good ideas and suggestions !

Today I did cleaning on the left head and cylinder. Even with cleaning was very physically rough in the bore, so "we" - that means a qualified person, not I - honed the left bore. Initial reaction is that the rust went pretty deep. Some pics to follow.

[rbleau]

Here is the view from inboard to outboard - looking from the crank side of the cylinder.

[rbleau]

Piston / cyl options include:

1) IF starboard piston & cyl are "ok", look for a used port cyl, perhaps piston.
2) Overbore - with new pistons, which creates that ca-ching sound at the cash register.
3) other ?

This assumes the bottom end is OK.

Of my four 1977 BMWs, FYI, only one is is real good shape. I need to name these dang (note use of term dang) machines. Well, oK, Bike #1 is the green & black R100S - in good shape. Pic posted previously. Low mileage (36k).

Bike #2 is the Rat Bike, R100/7, undergoing work at a local shop. Awaiting transmission rebuild. Will be a mod. Solo seat, stuff like that.

Bike #3 is another R100S; needs TLC. Slowly doing this and that. Bad oil leaks. Was once cared for, then not. High mileage.

Bike #4 is the Barn Bike !

Back to the barn bike - here is the port intake port .

[rbleau]

Time for Mr Bead Blaster.

[PAGoldsby]

Time for Mr Bead Blaster.Yikes!

You might think about chasing the spark plug threads first, and putting a "sacrificial" plug (or bolt) in there before bead blasting the combustion chamber. If the guides haven't been wrecked, those valves just might clean up.

[crazydrummerdude]

I am surprised how rough those cylinders look.

[Roguetek]

before you do something abrasive, there are two other non-abrasive options you might want to consider.

1 is a product called 'evaporust'. It's a ferrous oxide chelation process that leave the metal, but removes the rust. works wonders, runs about 25$ a gal.

2. the other option is reverse electroplating. this will also remove rust without removing good metal.

[robsryder]

Piston / cyl options include:

1) IF starboard piston & cyl are "ok", look for a used port cyl, perhaps piston.
2) Overbore - with new pistons, which creates that ca-ching sound at the cash register.
3) other ?

Anton or Paul Glaves or someone with lots of experience might be best to chime in with a suggestion. It is my understanding that the R100 bikes don't have enough metal thicknenss in the cylinder liner to allow for an overbore. I'd be very interested to learn differently, however.

The rust pitting that now exists more or less precludes reuse. I don't think that honing alone will be sufficient. But, you might be able to get a job killing mosquitoes from all of the smoke that you will be producing from oil burning. :)

So, you are basically left with replacement of the cylinders. You can go with a steel cylinder like you had, or "upgrade" to a cylinder with nikasil coating the inner wall. Different rings must be used with nikasil cylinders than are used with iron ones.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikasil

Good used cylinders will be much less expensive than new (new may only be available as nikasil).

The head(s) will need some work, but might be ok. Head work might include: new valve guides, new valve seats (for unleaded), new valves, new valve springs, install an insert for the spark plugs, (dual plugging?).

Obviously there was water entry which caused rust. If an oil coating remained on the crank bearings, the bottom end may be ok. The bottom end should be inspected.

Don't forget that the transmission is going to need to be serviced. Depending on parts required, the costs can add up. Fortunately good used parts can be had for pretty reasonable rates (half or less than new).

If you are patient and somewhat lucky you may be able to snag items on ebay at reasonable rates. I've been accumulating various parts (e.g., starters, rotors, diode boards, transmissions, rear drives, etc.) for a few years in order to always have extras. In your case, most of your "spare" parts will be interchangable with other bikes (assuming that you stay with 77 /7 bikes) :)

[rbleau]

Robsmoto -

San Jose BMW sells (see their web site) an overbore kit - called the 1050cc kit. Fancy pistons, etc. But apparently an overbore is possible. I am thinking more along the lines of a used cylinder....gotta check pistons before that.

Thanks for tips, everyone ! / RB

[rbleau]

before you do something abrasive, there are two other non-abrasive options you might want to consider.

1 is a product called 'evaporust'. It's a ferrous oxide chelation process that leave the metal, but removes the rust. works wonders, runs about 25$ a gal.

2. the other option is reverse electroplating. this will also remove rust without removing good metal.


Roguetek / saw your post AFTER honing...oh well...thanks anyhow.

[Roguetek]

no biggie. but the evaporust stuff is great for cleaning things up., nuts, bolts, brackets, that sort of thing... just de grease before dunking.

[rbleau]

RS left caliper undergoing Kroil & heat lamp treatment - frozen brake line nuts. Right (starboard) side came free fairly easily. Left (port) bleed nut ok, too. Is this foto too artsy for MOA ??

[robsryder]

RS left caliper undergoing Kroil & heat lamp treatment - frozen brake line nuts. Right (starboard) side came free fairly easily. Left (port) bleed nut ok, too. Is this foto too artsy for MOA ??

That caliper doesn't look a faded blue as mine did and other that I've seen. It looks more an aluminum color like it was replaced. In post #31 of this thread it looks like your left-hand side caliper is a faded blue. The right caliper appears as an aluminum color. The 77RS had the blue calipers. I think that your RHS caliper has been replaced. Wonder why?

[rbleau]

No clue, Robsmoto, but that might explain why the nuts are so much tighter on the left than the right. Still no movement on the line nut below the bleed nut. Or bolt. Pick one.

[crazydrummerdude]

When those are stuck in hard like that, be sure to not snap them off.

On my R75 resurrection, I snapped the bleeder valve off, snapped an EZ-out off, and had to dremel around the EZ-out to get all that crap out of the hole. I spared the threads, and it's been a-ok since 2005!

[rbleau]

Crazy Drummer - yowsa, something to avoid; glad you overcame that ! And saved the threads no less !

Used heat, Kroil and large center punch (to set up a vibration) over 3 days. Was taking today off from BMW work, but after rototilling wife's veggie garden and putting tractor away, walked over to the RS and gave it a shot and had success ! yay ! Both nuts on the lower brake line gave it up for grandpa.


Will I get whacked for including this photo ? I did have to service the 59" tiller and after doing that, those little 10mm brake line nuts were less fearsome. Also spread 500 lbs of manure.

R

[rbleau]

That caliper doesn't look a faded blue as mine did and other that I've seen. It looks more an aluminum color like it was replaced. In post #31 of this thread it looks like your left-hand side caliper is a faded blue. The right caliper appears as an aluminum color. The 77RS had the blue calipers. I think that your RHS caliper has been replaced. Wonder why?

Robsmoto - must have been the lighting - both are shiny bright, no blue.

[rbleau]

rbleau,

Clean the cylinders and inspect them before doing anything abrasive. Any scoring, or actual pitting from rust? If not, is there a ridge near the top, where the upper ring land stops moving at TDC?
Are they out of round, near the bottom of the stroke, where the most lateral force is exerted on the piston? There did not appear to be significant signs of blow-by on the pistons; 'though they both had some light scuffing, the port side looking worst. Seeing it near the rings, instead of the skirts, can be a sign of overheating or lack of oil (why is the question). Is that top ring on the port piston stuck?

Can you feel any play in the piston wrist pin to upper con rod relationship? How about the crank journal end of the rods? How does the crank rotate, now that you've eliminated the friction of the pistons in the bores? It's difficult to feel any slop in the main bearings, but sometimes you can see excess fore and aft play by actuating the clutch.

My top three thoughts on the source of your oil pan "sparklies" would be:
1. Those scuffed pistons (let's hope so, it's the easiest fix).
2. Bearings ('though I've not seen them leave fine "filings" like that before).
3. Your oil pump. Excessive end play can let the rotating gear chew into the aluminum housing behind it. Look for tell-tale circles when you remove the gear, if you do. This could be bad, or worse. Bad would be the pump couldn't keep up the pressure, the oil light flickered, and the bike was parked before worse harm was done. Worse would be the light wasn't noticed or paid attention too, and the bike wasn't parked until worse damage forced it to be.

You could keep disassembling until you find the source and fix it; but if those cylinders aren't bad after cleanup, I'd be tempted to put it all back together and try to start it. You may still have to take it apart again for a thorough overhaul, but you might be able to diagnose the problem first, and besides, what further harm could it do, if you're going to rebuild it anyway?
You never know, you might be pleasantly surprised.

If worst comes to worst, considering the condition of everything else, it would tempt me to pull the RS body work, repaint it, and put it on the /7. Then you can sell what's left of the RS to one of these die-hards who swears it's worth it, or part it out, or keep it around to tinker with and learn from over the course of several years, which would help keep the costs from stinging so hard all at once... and the safest place to store the bodywork may just be bolted to another bike.

Bob

Bob - Well, dunno how much slop there should be, if any, but I can feel thepistons rocking a bit on the wrist pin, and it felt similar on the con rod to crank side, but then I don't know what I am looking for. yet.

Cylinders are not looking very good at this point, but I have more to learn. Good suggestions, keep em coming !

[535is]

Also spread 500 lbs of manure.

R

Yeah; we can see. But how much did you put on the garden? :whistle

[rbleau]

OK, well, worked to clean up the starboard cylinder. Some honing. Sadly, looks like overbore time, similar to port cyl. So, went to the bead blaster and at least cleaned it up so it could maybe make a great coffee table item, should I go that route.

[rbleau]

The result of bumping the rear wheel on rusty motor.

[rbleau]

To invest, or to part out: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous bike abuse,
Or to take arms against a sea of storage troubles,
And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep;
To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub.

To dream of a restoration that is affordable, I must rattle voodoo chicken bones, make offerings to the cardinal directions of North and South, yea even West and East, listen to the wind....see foto, please.

[mikeb921]

To dream of a restoration that is affordable, I must rattle voodoo chicken bones, make offerings to the cardinal directions of North and South, yea even West and East, listen to the wind....see foto, please.

While a first year R100RS is an excellant example to restore, I have a feeling that one is going to be a high dollar job. I hope the voodoo chicken bones brings some good ju-ju your way.

Good luck,
MB

[sumran]

To invest, or to part out: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous bike abuse,
Or to take arms against a sea of storage troubles,
And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep;
To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub.

Having thought through how things ended for Hamlet, parting it may be the best option. Then again, you may be immortalized for righting the wrongs of the '77 RS, as the next king of the road rides your machine into the sunrise.:stick

Great photo!

[88bmwJeff]

To invest, or to part out: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous bike abuse,
Or to take arms against a sea of storage troubles,
And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep;
To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub.

To dream of a restoration that is affordable, I must rattle voodoo chicken bones, make offerings to the cardinal directions of North and South, yea even West and East, listen to the wind....see foto, please.

It's a bummer about the bike. You have a few choices as I see it.

1.) part it out
2.) sell it as a project bike
3.) throw a ton of money at it and you'd have a running bike in a short time.
4.) make it a long term project. The engine appears to be pretty much toast. The tranny and final drive are unknowns, at least from what you've posted here. If you decide to make it a long term project. You can work on getting a "rolling chassis" then look for a good donor bike for the drive line. You can then part out the rest of the donor bike, which would offset some of the cost.

Each has their pluses and minuses. You need to figure out which fits best with regards to what you are willing to do.

[Roguetek]

well..... we could do this one of two ways.


I could buy yours, or you could buy mine...

[rbleau]

Good suggestions, as usual, from the community ! Thanks to all.

OK, I elected to interrupt my chain of focus. So here is a pic of the left fork cap area. Looks a bit nasty.

[rbleau]

Both have had some 409 sprayed on. Letting it soak. Will prob switch to Simple Green.

I am definitely a matching numbers kind of person. Depends upon bottom end eval whether or not I chase jugs, pistons, overbore, used,.....:uhoh


I think my calipers keep changing colors. One day blue, another day aluminum/steel.

[rbleau]

A friend cut down a fresh 27mm socket for me....the plan is to attack the swingarm / trans next Sunday ! Today is for doing little this and that stuff - breaking bolts free, spraying Kroil, soaking things in Simple Green, and so on. I think I will attack the front forks with kerosene and be done ith it. Bought a 36mm socket for the end caps. I dislike using open end wrenches for anything. / RB

[rbleau]

I cut open the filter (finally) and inspected, and could not find any metallic stuff on the outside or inside folds of the filter, so that is a plus to offset the sparklies in the oil pan.

[rbleau]

That caliper doesn't look a faded blue as mine did and other that I've seen. It looks more an aluminum color like it was replaced. In post #31 of this thread it looks like your left-hand side caliper is a faded blue. The right caliper appears as an aluminum color. The 77RS had the blue calipers. I think that your RHS caliper has been replaced. Wonder why?

Robsmoto - mystery is solved. Here is photo of left caliper illustrating the original blue...

cheers / RB

[rbleau]

That was NOT sparkley metal bits in the oil pan after all. It was just the pan casting roughness. :gerg

The cylinders & pistons are out getting honed and measured. Swingarm 27mm nuts are loose and if Pete ever shows up - we are back in winter in North Texas - we will pull the trans and the rest of the fairing.

[rbleau]

Today’s Lessons:

1) Only work on one (1) motorcycle at a time
2) When using an abrasive blaster, even if you are shooting innocuous baking soda, use a full face mask or you will have a very smooth forehead when you blast into inside corners. This is why corner cube reflectors work for lasers and radio frequencies.
3) The purpose of your eyes is to watch what your hands are doing. Never remove your eyes from your hands whenever hands are in use.
4) When reinstalling carburetor float bowls, do NOT pinch the gasket. The carb will piss on your foot.
5) Always fully raise or fully lower the shop door.
6) North Texas wind will disperse baking soda well; regardless of wind velocity however, you will get it all over you.
7) Simple Green does not work on heavy, baked on old grease.
8) When partially refueling a gas tank that has been emptied, and you only put in about 1 gallon, remember to select the petcock to RESERVE, or you will get no gas and just end up recharging your battery.
9) A good oil pump will create enough pressure to extinguish the oil light even if the motor does not start. This will somehow make you feel better, almost as if you had actually lit the motor.
10) Get a fresh bar of Lava before your hands are wet.
11) It is not necessary to keep going until you have made three screw-ups in order to quit for the day.
:brow

[jam1981]

Better than the left. I think bike was stored on the sidestand !

Look at that enormous piston :twirl yihaa

[ebeeby]

Today’s Lessons:

1) Only work on one (1) motorcycle at a time
2) When using an abrasive blaster, even if you are shooting innocuous baking soda, use a full face mask or you will have a very smooth forehead when you blast into inside corners. This is why corner cube reflectors work for lasers and radio frequencies.
3) The purpose of your eyes is to watch what your hands are doing. Never remove your eyes from your hands whenever hands are in use.
4) When reinstalling carburetor float bowls, do NOT pinch the gasket. The carb will piss on your foot.
5) Always fully raise or fully lower the shop door.
6) North Texas wind will disperse baking soda well; regardless of wind velocity however, you will get it all over you.
7) Simple Green does not work on heavy, baked on old grease.
8) When partially refueling a gas tank that has been emptied, and you only put in about 1 gallon, remember to select the petcock to RESERVE, or you will get no gas and just end up recharging your battery.
9) A good oil pump will create enough pressure to extinguish the oil light even if the motor does not start. This will somehow make you feel better, almost as if you had actually lit the motor.
10) Get a fresh bar of Lava before your hands are wet.
11) It is not necessary to keep going until you have made three screw-ups in order to quit for the day.
:brow

Brother - I have to admit those all sound too familiar. I suppose I will always be an amateur.

Eric

[108625]

That was NOT sparkley metal bits in the oil pan after all. It was just the pan casting roughness. :gerg

That's one of those rare "happy" dope slaps. Let's hope some of the other discoveries aren't as bad as they first appeared, as well. It must have been your euphoria over the good news that led to the, umm, "educational" day you had afterwards.

Can I suggest you have a safe place ready for the fairing before you remove it? I've probably done more body damage in my garage to removed parts than installed ones. (We won't even discuss the incident of the seat-eating dog.)

[rbleau]

Cylinder measurements are back from machine shop - 1st (only) overbore is required. Shopping for pistons.

[rbleau]

Overbore pistons are going to be on order shortly. Have been wrassling the RS fairing - rusted nuts and you need Gumby fingers. Or at least I do. Went ahead and ground flats on a 13mm socket and removed lower fork leg retaining nuts and washers. The right fork acctually bled a little fork oil. Nasty pics to follow.

First photo is left fork leg.

[rbleau]

Here is the starboard fork leg bottom.

[Roguetek]

Hey, do you still have that smashed tank?

[rbleau]

Just thought I would back up and provide perspective.

From left to right:

'77 R100RS The Barn Bike: Goal = refurbish enough to get it running and ridable.

'77 R100S - oil pan still stuck; neutral light always on, misc other goobers. This is a rescue bike.

'77 R100S - left valve cover started leaking after a service call; cleaned surfaces, replaced gasket. No test yet, WX crappy - winds gusting to 50 mph etc.

[rbleau]

Umm, words probably unnecessary for this one.

[rbleau]

few words speak louder than pictures with words

[rbleau]

Words fail me. OK, maybe not. Who wants spline close-ups ? And as a finale, we removed the saddlebag mounts. Should have done that earlier. Total elapsed time, 17 minutes. Just kidding.

[rbleau]

Please comment on spline appearance ! (condition)

[BubbaZanetti]

:lurk

this is a fun thread, thanks for sharing it!

[rbleau]

It is never too late.....

[orbitangel]

It is never too late.....

There must me many good Mental Health Professionals in the DFW area.

Perhaps you could arrange to be picked-up?

I am confident that one of the really good ones just MIGHT be able to help you/us...

Go ahead, do it. Just pick up the phone. :whistle

[orbitangel]

It is never too late.....

NEVER?

Obi-Wan: "He's more machine now than man; twisted and evil." :violin

[squiffynimrod]

Please comment on spline appearance ! (condition)

Needs lube.

[pschuyler]

Here is a before and after of the floats, see what varnished gas does to these.

[pschuyler]

Here is a closeup of the new float, pivot pin, and jets re-assembled with new o-rings.

[squiffynimrod]

Please comment on spline appearance ! (condition)

I hope those splines are OK as they look exactly the same as mine when I did the lube today. No pics as the trans is still attached, and lighting poor.

[squiffynimrod]

Here is a before and after of the floats, see what varnished gas does to these.

Although my floats are not as brown as those, the R carb did leak this past summer. Were yours leaking and the new floats the remedy?

Thanks, Steve

[rbleau]

No clue if they were leaking, but this bike sat since 1989....so Pete is doing the carbs just because he likes to.

[rbleau]

I started thinking about all the FOD training I have had over many years – Foreign Object Damage. And thinking about all the open cavities that can exist on an engine. I do have rags stuffed into the cylinder cutouts and around the rods.

The big lesson learned – BEFORE beginning to dismantle something, try to get most of the crap, grease and grime off it FIRST.

So I detail cleaned the oil filter cover, around the cavity, and yup – as I was cleaning the cavity interior, what did appear but a black O-ring, which took a while to finagle out with a bent wire. It broke in two pieces easily, and was brittle & hard. Anyway, cleaned the oil filter cavity and wet it generously with WD40, then installed the cover with a fresh paper gasket finger tight on the 10mm bolts. Took photo.

Think I will remember there is no filter in there ? :scratch

Any tips for the pushrod cavities ?

[pschuyler]

Here is a nice closeup of the left carb, this baby was in bad shape.

[pschuyler]

Ok, lets see how clean I can get this one. This one is a real challenge, not sure why the left was so much more cruddy, but I saved the best for last. This one was so rusty on the vacuum port screw.

I let the unit sit after spraying with WD-40 for 3 hours, and the screw snapped right off, now Ron and have a bitch of a project ahead trying to get the snapped off end out, good times. Kroil might have been a better to use on this rusty mess.

[GeorgeRyals]

The splines look perfect, just need a good cleaning....Low miles on the splines.

[108625]

Think I will remember there is no filter in there ? :scratch


If you remember FOD, you must remember "remove before flight". Get yourself some marking (AKA "toe") tags, and write yourself a reminder:
NO OIL FILTER!
Tie it to the engine start/stop switch.

It's saved me from costing myself extra money before.

[mymindsok]

Well...

It looks as if youre making great progress on the RS!

The choice of restoring or parting out has a few facets, including the fact that you have a pretty sweet 77 "S" bike sitting there awaiting attention.

Heres my 2 cents...

With all of the guys out there looking for a first year RS's to restore, I wouldnt part that one out, even if it would bring more cash than selling it as a unit. It's just too rare and desirable a bike. Therefore, if you want to keep it, back burner the project till you have the time or funds to do it up right.

I fully expect that restored to condition #1 or #2 stock condition, that bike would bring low R-90S money ($7000 to $8000) and prices are still going up. Heck, you could restore it, ride it for five years and still make $$$ when you sell.

The other side of the coin is that if you are persistant and lucky, you can buy an excelent Project RS in the sub $2000 range. I bought the one below about a month ago, fresh out of long term (5 year.) storage for less than $2000 and my friend and I had it running that same evening. Of course all of the rubber needs replacing along with tires, cables, and a fork rebuild but I also doubt that I'll have more than $3000 in it when I start riding it next month.

Click for full size:
<a href="http://s177.photobucket.com/albums/w238/kenwhitehawk/83%20R-100RS/?action=view&current=LATESTFULLFILE039.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w238/kenwhitehawk/83%20R-100RS/th_LATESTFULLFILE039.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket" ></a>

From what I can see, you have plenty of Airheads ready or almost ready to ride, so theres no real reason to kill this one, like those guys who part out R-90S bikes. If you arnt gonna stick with the project to completion, pass it on to someone who will. Heck... If you were closer, I'd be trying to trade you my Red RS for that one.

PS: I'll bet you $20 sight unseen, that theres nothing wrong with that bottom end but next time, don't turn the engine over till you look at the bores. OK?

[88bmwJeff]

The other side of the coin is that if you are persistant and lucky, you can buy an excelent Project RS in the sub $2000 range. I bought the one below about a month ago, fresh out of long term (5 year.) storage for less than $2000 and my friend and I had it running that same evening. Of course all of the rubber needs replacing along with tires, cables, and a fork rebuild but I also doubt that I'll have more than $3000 in it when I start riding it next month.


Where to do people find these deals?

Sorry about the hijacking of the thread.

[mymindsok]

Wait a minute.... Youre in Wallnut creek? I know you...

That being the case, I really shouldnt tell you my secrets but I usually use Craigslist for bikes and Ebay for parts.

This particular bike is the sixth or seventh complete BMW that I've purchased for less than two grand and the total number includes two or three that only cost $100 cash. :dance

If you really want an explanation, you'll have to start another thread.

[aschatzman]

Wait a minute.... Youre in Wallnut creek? I know you...

That being the case, I really shouldnt tell you my secrets but I usually use Craigslist for bikes and Ebay for parts.

This particular bike is the sixth or seventh complete BMW that I've purchased for less than two grand and the total number includes two or three that only cost $100 cash. :dance

If you really want an explanation, you'll have to start another thread.

$100 bucks huh? I need an explanation and a link to those ads...

[rbleau]

Ken / All - I smile at your good fortune to find BMW motorcycles in good condition for low prices ! We all would like to do the same ! How about if I rat out the RS ? Just kidding. Did you make a cash offer for mine ? :whistle

Anyway, today's Lesson learned, a repeat of a prior one: Clean something before dissasembling it if you can.

Today's invention: Tappet hole plugs. see photo. Went to Academy Sports, bought some squash balls - appear to be rubber. They are about 1.5 " diameter. Did you know squash balls have a small amount of liquid inside ? Yup. Too big when whole. So, cut in half, still a bit large. Trimmed a bit, and a pretty snug fit ensued. Started cleaning, then took photo just before I broke for dinner and watching Jack Bauer.

[mymindsok]

Damn....

Now hes talkin about squash balls... What next!?

[squiffynimrod]

.

Today's invention: Tappet hole plugs. see photo. Went to Academy Sports, bought some squash balls - appear to be rubber. They are about 1.5 " diameter. Did you know squash balls have a small amount of liquid inside ? Yup. Too big when whole. So, cut in half, still a bit large. Trimmed a bit, and a pretty snug fit ensued. Started cleaning, then took photo just before I broke for dinner and watching Jack Bauer.

Outstandingly resourceful! I spent several hours yesterday laying on the driveway in +2C temps cleaning that very area, but with the jugs on! WD40, Scotchbrite, brass brushes and EG yielded similar results. I'm suspect of a PRT seal leak as the area shown was completely black with grunge, at least if there is a leak I'll be able to see it.

[rbleau]

Herr Nimrod - Buy a lift. You will then slap your forehead and ask why it took so long ! :dance

[squiffynimrod]

Herr Nimrod - Buy a lift. You will then slap your forehead and ask why it took so long ! :dance

I agree. But I'm in the middle of the SO "you've spent too much on that bike already" conundrum. Found a cheap lift on sale for $225, was veto'd. So I gladly wrench off my back until NEXT year. Guess what I'm asking for for Xmas?

[108625]

Rbleau,

Just curious, how are you going to get those back out?

[squiffynimrod]

Rbleau,

Just curious, how are you going to get those back out?

Dental pick?

[rbleau]

Slow progress cleaning. Simple Green mostly. Removing the squash ball halves is easy.

[88bmwJeff]

rbleau,
I'm enjoying this thread. Keep us informed with plenty of pictures and updates. I think you're doing a great job.

I know you've gone back and forth on whether to keep and repair/restore, or part out. It seems like you're still on the repair/restore track right now. I know it's unsolicited, but I have $0.02 to add.

Since you've almost completely stripped the bike, I would consider pulling the engine. That way you'll be able to work on it on the workbench, which would make life a lot easier. You can also replace the sidestand bushings to get it working better, if needed.

It's hard to tell from the photos the condition of the paint/powder coat on the frame. I would consider getting it powder coated (if needed), since it's a lot of work to strip a bike down to the frame. This way you have a "good base" going forward, and you can slowly upgrade and restore the parts around that good base as you so desire. Over the a few year period, I have taken everything off the bike for rebuilding building except the engine and wiring harness.

I only have one bike, so completely disassembling it would require me not having a bike to ride. But looking back, I wish I had the time and effort to get the frame powder coated.

Anyway, it's your bike and your project, so have fun. I'm just a bystander enjoying the view.

[rbleau]

88bmwJeff: Good comments. One set of definitions I have encountered is restoration versus refurbishment. Refurbishment gets it safely running and ridable.

In my simple view, powder coating the frame is restoration type work. So that's way back burner now. The frame does reflect slow leakage of brake fluid in some spots, but that could just be local sanding and repaint. I am considering pulling the motor, however, that's probably a good idea.

I do recommend that you acquire a second bike in need of saving ! Of my four, because they all ride differently, I may reduce the collection by one to pay for the others perhaps. The riding position on my R100S bikes, with the Euro S bars, or with the US bars, is fairly natural for me.

Today I did finally get the oil pan off my red S. I will post a pic of the tool, which may well draw harsh criticism ! / Cheers / RB

[88bmwJeff]

I do recommend that you acquire a second bike in need of saving ! Of my four, because they all ride differently, I may reduce the collection by one to pay for the others perhaps. The riding position on my R100S bikes, with the Euro S bars, or with the US bars, is fairly natural for me.

I'd like to, but with a wife and one-year old, monies a little tight these days. And if push comes to shove (which it has several times over the last year), the kid gets the money (so to speak).

Anyway, back to the regularly scheduled program.

[rbleau]

The attached photos depict the severe rust pitting on fork legs. So, as I added fork legs to the parts list, I goofed up and did some math on the growing list of parts, and to make this machine a rider would be an irrecoverable money sink. For significantly less dollars I can buy a running used RS and ride it home and improve that !

Conclusion: this RS is now a parts bike to feed my other 3 1977 airheads ! As I figure it out, I'll post things for sale that my other bikes do not need. Many thanks to all for the great tips and clues, Have learned a lot and am still learning more. This has been a tough decision point, trust me !

Somebody probably has a list somewhere of barn bike lessons learned and decision criteria !

[rbleau]

Pits remain after buffing, simichrome, etc.

[squiffynimrod]

That's the pits that you have to part her out. What were the fork legs going to set you back? Sounds like the $$ (probably big $$) were the deciding factor.

[88bmwJeff]

That's a bummer. But, it doesn't sound like the bike was stored properly. Before you part it out 100%, think about whether you want two S's and a /7, or perhaps use one of the other bikes to get the RS as functioning bike. Or put the RS fairing on one of the other bikes. Granted only you can make that choice. I'm just throwing out suggestions to make sure you've considered all your options.

Best of luck.

Edit: since people seem to place a higher value on the 77 RS's since it's the first year, you could store all the good parts, and look for a good donor bike. I don't know. Just throwing out ideas here. Maybe you've considered them all.

[Solo_Lobo]

That's the pits that you have to part her out. What were the fork legs going to set you back? Sounds like the $$ (probably big $$) were the deciding factor.


Forking by Frank sells fork legs for just about any motorcycle on earth... this new replacements were running about $225 last time I bought... I've used his replacements on an R100RS, K75S as well as a 1967 T100C!

[108625]

Somebody probably has a list somewhere of barn bike lessons learned and decision criteria !


Sounds like an idea for a new thread in the campfire... I'm sure the stories will be enlightening.
They may help a lot of others with such projects, and the decisions involved. After all, a lesson learned, and not shared, is a missed opportunity to help someone else.

[mymindsok]

Wow... I just hate to be the cheerleader again but....

Why don't you wait a bit and see if you can find a set of good fork legs? I see em all the time on Ebay. I'm telling you... That bike is a potential collectors item and deserves to remain together.

I also think that "Forking By Frank" is a good option. I had "The frame Man" straighten the forks that I used on the Hot Rod and I bought replacment fork tube from FBF for the now-bypassed R-100 build. I guess that that gives me an extra pair of legs for my RS, just in case I screw things up. OTOH, I can allways sell em and pocket the cash.

As I have said before... I would never part that bike out. What I would do is ride my other bikes and work on the RS as time and funds permit. Heck, it took me almost three years to complete the Hot Rod but I got it done and I'd happily invest three years and a few grand into a '77' RS. Thats arguably, the most collectable RS of all.

Oh well, do what you need to do but if youre gonna sell it, how much do yo want for whats left?

[rbleau]

Howdy, good words, all.

First - Without donor RS machines, the operational ones will suffer !

The bike would justify certain investments if it had uniqueness, such as Steve McQueen's former bike maybe. Which this one does not have. Here is a partial list, largely excluding labor, versus buying a runner that needs TLC, maybe some surgery:

Estimate
1100 cost of bike less $400 for tank
800 all seals, all rubber, all cables $ ?
150 carb rebuild $150
700 heads rebuild $700
400 trans rebuild $400
100 rear drive seals, inspect, $ ?
300 new pistons $300
100 cylinder overbore $100 (maybe less)
400 new tank $400 +
150 steering head bearings
300 fork replace & rebuild $300 & up
100 caliper rebuild $100
75 brake pads $75
250 replacement grips $ ?
125 new 22mm handlebar $ ?
300 new shocks / doubtful if old ones rebuildable $300
110 battery $110
100 at least 1 40mm header pipe
300 mufflers $300 +
200 frame restoration, powder coat
300 wheels respoked & blasted $300
1000 refinish & repaint as necessary, repair one fairing panel
150 repair odometer / speedo service $125 + parts
7510 subtotal

I have not sorted things much yet, and will likely figure out IBMWR. For interests, please use private messages. Just a few parts are now already in new homes on my other BMWs. Thanks ! / Ron

[Solo_Lobo]

I'd say you are a bit on the high side for your estimate, unless you are farming things out...

I just complete a head rebuild for under $400... Motobins (out of the UK) sells an aftermarket complete head kit (valves, springs, guides, retainers, etc) for less than $200, I paid $165 inc shipping for the R80Kit... my local head shop charged $220 for the labor to R&R the heads with my parts...

Just saved you $300, lol...

But on the other hand, my trans rebuild cost $1,100 !

[108625]

Solo Lobo,

I'd suggest you go back and check post #81.

[rbleau]

Many thanks to all - supportive comments, great tips....I know so little that every week my knowledge base for these West German machines is still doubling. See you on another thread ~!:type

[mymindsok]

Howdy, good words, all.

First - Without donor RS machines, the operational ones will suffer !

The bike would justify certain investments if it had uniqueness, such as Steve McQueen's former bike maybe. Which this one does not have. Here is a partial list, largely excluding labor, versus buying a runner that needs TLC, maybe some surgery:

Estimate
1100 cost of bike less $400 for tank
800 all seals, all rubber, all cables $ ?
150 carb rebuild $150
700 heads rebuild $700
400 trans rebuild $400
100 rear drive seals, inspect, $ ?
300 new pistons $300
100 cylinder overbore $100 (maybe less)
400 new tank $400 +
150 steering head bearings
300 fork replace & rebuild $300 & up
100 caliper rebuild $100
75 brake pads $75
250 replacement grips $ ?
125 new 22mm handlebar $ ?
300 new shocks / doubtful if old ones rebuildable $300
110 battery $110
100 at least 1 40mm header pipe
300 mufflers $300 +
200 frame restoration, powder coat
300 wheels respoked & blasted $300
1000 refinish & repaint as necessary, repair one fairing panel
150 repair odometer / speedo service $125 + parts
7510 subtotal

I have not sorted things much yet, and will likely figure out IBMWR. For interests, please use private messages. Just a few parts are now already in new homes on my other BMWs. Thanks ! / Ron

Well Ron,

Well I won't bother trying to convince you to keep that bike (Been there/done that.) but I do think that your estimate of costs is unrealisticly high and that you are failing to account for possible creative solutions. OTOH, it appears as if you just want to dump the project and the possible costs are as good an excuse as any.

When I began my R-90 hot rod rebuild, I began with: 1) $500 1976 R-90/9 with 200,000 miles and I bought: 1) $1100.00 R-100RT 14,00 mi, Good runner!), 1) $100.00 R-60/6 (Dead), 1) $100 79 R-100 RS (Dead). Lets add that to your inflated estimate, minus the cost of your bike, for a total of: $8210.00. I then proceeded to sell off $3658.00 in parts, for a subtotal of: $4552 Many of the parts that I didnt sell, were incorporated in the resto and some went onto the garage shelves as spares.

OK?

That $4552 still dosnt include the many parts that I still have to sell off (A low mile R-100 engine, snowflakes, front and rear brembos, oil cooler, bing carbs, R-100 heads and jugs, RS guage sets, etc, etc.) and it dosnt include the parts that I traded against mechanics bills and for help, but if I was the greedy type (Which I'm not. I like to give stuff away! ;) ) or a good bookkeeper, I could likely get my costs down very close to zero. While I have no intentions of revealing every creative solution that I've come up with, I do want to encourage you guys who don't have a lot of cash, to really think about all of the ways that you can shave costs and/or make money in this hobby, while you persue your hobby.

Just because someone says "I have $8000 tied up in this restoration!" dosn't mean that they have actually spent $8000 getting the job done. It's more likely that they used $8000 in smarts!

Anyway, good luck with your sales. If I can think of anything I need, I'll send you a PM.

[krehmkej]

Fork legs? That's nothing. Certainly no reason to give up. I had an extra set of /7 forks in perfect condition that I put on evilbay. Brought a grand total of $15.00. Hell, I would have gladly given them to someone in need.

[108625]

"ahhh.. here's post #81.... what do you mean exactly?"

The budget: $2,000.
Even if there are ways of doing things less expensively than Ron calculates, there's a big jump from what he determined to be his limit, and what the bike will need to meet his goals.
From my own experience as a military project manager, I can agree with his position of estimating on a "don't expect any deals" basis. We can always try to execute on a more frugal basis; but budgeting on it is irresponsible.
Even if he's able to do it for half of what he projects, that's nearly twice what he first said he wanted to spend.

Now, if somebody out there is absolutely convinced that it could be done for less, that it's worth doing, and that the bike should be saved; you know where to find it.

[PMonk]

I have to show this to my wife. I bought a 74 90/6 for $4k and have put $1650 in it.
Some of that was strictly personal choices not necessary.

Sounds like a bargain not a "black hole"

[crazydrummerdude]

My R90/6 project started as a seized rusted, broken, mangled mess.

I have a spreadsheet detailing every last cent I've spent on it.

As of today, I have ~$3000 in it... and I just got the plates for it.

It can be saved, for cheap(er than you think)!

[mymindsok]

I have to show this to my wife. I bought a 74 90/6 for $4k and have put $1650 in it.
Some of that was strictly personal choices not necessary.

Sounds like a bargain not a "black hole"

Youre right... That sounds about right for a nice R-90. I'll bet it's a nice bike too!

Heres a photo of my almost finished project, on the road last Fall.

As far as budgeting goes, if I had had to estimate the cost of my project and know where the money was coming from, my bike never would have gotten built but by following the principles of "prosperity thinking", everything came together kind of on it's own, as I invested my hard work and creativity into the project.

To me it's all an example of how we allways get what we think we're going to get. Good or bad.

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w238/kenwhitehawk/R-90%20BUILD/th_LATESTFULLFILE067.jpg (http://s177.photobucket.com/albums/w238/kenwhitehawk/R-90%20BUILD/?action=view&current=LATESTFULLFILE067.jpg)

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w238/kenwhitehawk/R-90%20BUILD/th_FULLFILE-2007.jpg (http://s177.photobucket.com/albums/w238/kenwhitehawk/R-90%20BUILD/?action=view&current=FULLFILE-2007.jpg)

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w238/kenwhitehawk/R-90%20BUILD/th_LATESTFULLFILE036.jpg (http://s177.photobucket.com/albums/w238/kenwhitehawk/R-90%20BUILD/?action=view&current=LATESTFULLFILE036.jpg)

On the other hand, if you have to appease your old lady... Well, don't restore any BMW's! Luckily, Donna likes the bike as much as I do and now I'm working on "Her bike". A dirt cheap R-100RS. :laugh You absolutely do not have to spend a lot of money to ride a decent Airhead and you can quote me on that!

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w238/kenwhitehawk/83%20R-100RS/th_LATESTFULLFILE039.jpg (http://s177.photobucket.com/albums/w238/kenwhitehawk/83%20R-100RS/?action=view&current=LATESTFULLFILE039.jpg)

[Na Cl K9]

"ahhh.. here's post #81.... what do you mean exactly?"

The budget: $2,000.
Even if there are ways of doing things less expensively than Ron calculates, there's a big jump from what he determined to be his limit, and what the bike will need to meet his goals.
From my own experience as a military project manager, I can agree with his position of estimating on a "don't expect any deals" basis. We can always try to execute on a more frugal basis; but budgeting on it is irresponsible.
Even if he's able to do it for half of what he projects, that's nearly twice what he first said he wanted to spend.

Now, if somebody out there is absolutely convinced that it could be done for less, that it's worth doing, and that the bike should be saved; you know where to find it.That is a very astute comment. Arguing too that one can save a bundle doing things for themselves - by being patient and doing the job over a longer period of time (my preference), assumes the restorer has the time to devote to the job in the first place. Ron has several other BMW airheads AND a ranch and livestock to keep track of. Some choices in these matters have to be made with indifference simply because our priorities do not permit us the luxury of squandering either our time or our money. That is really just being practical isn’t it?

[PMonk]

[QUOTE=mymindsok;448287]Youre right... That sounds about right for a nice R-90. I'll bet it's a nice bike too!

That is one nice bike!

What is the color, looks almost like my 94 gold/white Ultraclassic white, or is it Dover White?

[mymindsok]

The R-90HR is painted in BMW Oilhead "Cream". It was a color that was only available in the OH Cruisers and only for one year. I had to get the paint ID and the paint kit from Holt.

True "Dover White" is a color that was thought up by Butler and Smith, when they came up with the idea of refinishing /2's fresh-from-the-crates, for the American market. Dover White is a bit browner than the more modern Cream and IIRC, is a Chrysler/Plymouth factory color from the 50's.

When I had the bike sprayed, the painter did a good job on the base color and the hand painted feathers but the (Black.) pins he laid down, were the worst crap I've ever seen! I made him wipe em off and took the parts to someone else, who suggested dark brown pins. Then, the night before the guy started on the 2nd striping job, Donna came up with the idea of doing the thin stripe in bright orange and the rest is history! As has happened so many times; after some nerve wracking struggle, everything came together in a very unique way that I never would have thought of otherwise.

If you look at the tank, you'll notice that it says "Thanks Donna" in script, which is my little thank you, for her unending support for my project. During the build, if I wasnt making progress, she'd usually say, "Why don't you go out in the garage and work on your bike?", even though she'd know that I'd be 'lost-to-the-world' untill 2AM. These days she says; "Wow! It's such a nice day! Why don't you take your bike for a ride? Just be carefull, OK?" Thats why shes getting a bike of her own, even if I have to ride her around on it!

[rbleau]

Good news - the 6180215 frame and block have gone to a home where she "may" ride again some day ! East of dallas, mind you.

Bad news - the transmission, upon teardown, shows the significant effect of sitting for 20 years - sure glad I did not sell this to somebody ! See photo !

Good news - the RS barn bike calipers, rebuilt with new pistons and EBC pads, and the rebuilt RS master cylinder, are rolling on my 1977 R100/7 as of today ! Yay !

[orbitangel]

Good news - the 6180215 frame and block have gone to a home where she "may" ride again some day ! East of dallas, mind you.

Bad news - the transmission, upon teardown, shows the significant effect of sitting for 20 years - sure glad I did not sell this to somebody ! See photo !

Good news - the RS barn bike calipers, rebuilt with new pistons and EBC pads, and the rebuilt RS master cylinder, are rolling on my 1977 R100/7 as of today ! Yay !

There you go, Mr. Ronbo, enmeshed in yet another Airhead problem.

You are a glutton for punishment - WHACK! Take THAT, G.I.! :stick

[108625]

I'm glad to see how you made the best of a bad situation:
1. You knew "when to say when" and did not get in too deep to turn back.
2. You "found a good home" for the matching # frame & engine block.
3. You had the integrity not to sell a transmission you suspected was bad.
4. You're making use of the parts you replaced or rebuilt, to help at least one of your other bikes towards completion. (Riding is what they're for, after all.)
I don't see how anyone can argue you should have done things differently. Thanks for sharing this update, and the whole story; it's a good one, with an ultimately positive outcome. Some of us can learn from it, too.
Keep us posted on your progress with your other airheads, and maybe add a ride report with one you've brought back to life.

Bob:bikes

[sumran]

Sorry to see the tranny damage. I tear up easily these days when I hear about tranny problems.:cry You should be able to salvage several usable parts out of it. And those parts are not cheap.

[rbleau]

Logged 54 miles on the rebuilt RS calipers and EBC pads - all is well. :bikes

[mymindsok]

Hi rbleau!!

Good to see you getting on with things and doing some riding!


I thought that you and our other friends might like to see the '77' RS heads. They came back from the Soda Blast guy last week after he went over them with Walnut shells. We think that they came out pretty good. This coming week were supposed to be cleaning them further to see whats useable and what isnt and getting on with rebuilding the engine.

<a href="http://s177.photobucket.com/albums/w238/kenwhitehawk/R-90%20BUILD/?action=view&current=81R-100RS013.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w238/kenwhitehawk/R-90%20BUILD/th_81R-100RS013.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket" ></a>

<a href="http://s177.photobucket.com/albums/w238/kenwhitehawk/R-90%20BUILD/?action=view&current=81R-100RS014.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w238/kenwhitehawk/R-90%20BUILD/th_81R-100RS014.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket" ></a>

<a href="http://s177.photobucket.com/albums/w238/kenwhitehawk/R-90%20BUILD/?action=view&current=81R-100RS015.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w238/kenwhitehawk/R-90%20BUILD/th_81R-100RS015.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket" ></a>

<a href="http://s177.photobucket.com/albums/w238/kenwhitehawk/R-90%20BUILD/?action=view&current=81R-100RS016.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w238/kenwhitehawk/R-90%20BUILD/th_81R-100RS016.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket" ></a>

Since I'll be using Dells on this engine, I contacted San Jose BMW and they just happened to have the correct spigots for these heads, so for another $100 or so, I have a solution thats actually better that I might have otherwise found. These are venturied, to keep the flow rates up at low speeds and that should help avoid the low speed bogging that occures when using these carbs with big valve heads. (I'm beginning to think that that Matt Capri guy is pretty smart!)

I feel very lucky, in that that bogging issue was what ruined the last big bore/big valve bike I rode. It was dead flat till 3000 RPM. Unfortunately, these spigots arnt nearly as pretty as the SS ones in my 900cc heads but I may pull those and sell them seperately when I sell those heads.

<a href="http://s177.photobucket.com/albums/w238/kenwhitehawk/R-90%20BUILD/?action=view&current=81R-100RS019.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w238/kenwhitehawk/R-90%20BUILD/th_81R-100RS019.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket" ></a>

<a href="http://s177.photobucket.com/albums/w238/kenwhitehawk/R-90%20BUILD/?action=view&current=81R-100RS020.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w238/kenwhitehawk/R-90%20BUILD/th_81R-100RS020.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket" ></a>

Tomorrow, the Project RS bike is getting it's first outing, with with trip to Auburn, CA for the 49er Rally! Hooray! The bike appears to be running well and the engine is a good one. (Yeah, it's got some power all right! Whoo!)

Pat and I have been thrashing on that sucker for the last two or three weeks, putting in some long days. I really have to hand it to Pat, because he has wrenched a few 12 hour days, in exchange for meals. In fact, we thought we were over the hard spots last week but when we test rode the bike we discovered that the clutch was slipping. So Wed he came over and swapped in a completely new clutch pack (That I just happened to have sitting around!) while I did some electrical work, cleaned parts, etc. Man-o-man... What would I be doing w/o my friends?

Yesterday, I finally resolved the last electrical issue (I hope, because the engine was cutting out every-so-often. Not good!) by replacing all of the diode board supports, which the PO had "repaired" by gluing them back together with silicone, after they failed. Some of the things that people do to Airheads are totaly inexplicable... At this point I think that I've cleaned each and every electrical connection on the bike and not only are there a lot of em but they were all pretty nasty.

Anyway, you can catch up on that project over at "Adventure Rider" by clicking this link: http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=441932

Well, I have a LOT to do before tomorrow morning, (Heck... I havnt even set up my new tent!!) so I'll catch you later!

The RS down for the count:
<a href="http://s177.photobucket.com/albums/w238/kenwhitehawk/83%20R-100RS/?action=view&current=LATESTFULLFILE002-4.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w238/kenwhitehawk/83%20R-100RS/th_LATESTFULLFILE002-4.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket" ></a>


After the first test ride with bimbo body work. Nice hairdo huh?:
<a href="http://s177.photobucket.com/albums/w238/kenwhitehawk/83%20R-100RS/?action=view&current=81R-100RS005-1.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w238/kenwhitehawk/83%20R-100RS/th_81R-100RS005-1.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket" ></a>

[rbleau]

Hey Ken - nice hair do - Note Barn Bike semi-blue calipers, freshly rebuilt, on my Slash 7 R100.

[AnnapolisAirhead]

Logged 54 miles on the rebuilt RS calipers and EBC pads - all is well. :bikes

What kind of seat is that? I'm looking for something similar.

[rbleau]

See post under Crazydrummer Dude never Ending R90 thread, please.

[108625]

Nice to see you're out riding, Ron!

May your transplant recipient bikes reward you with many trouble free miles:thumb

Bob

[Penforhire]

Whatever you budget for your rebuild... double it. You'll pull things apart and see other things that just have to be done right or whose cosmentics bother you. Cracked tank emblem? "That'll be $40 please."

While I'm probably 70% of the way to show-quality I did spent over $9K, doing most of the work myself (about $3K was outsourced -- heads & cyl, stainless spoking, speedo repair, paint, powdercoat) and getting really low prices on paint & powerdercoat. I think I would have to spend another $2-3K to get cosmetic perfection.

Someone mentioned $400 head job last page? I paid a lot more than that, $1100 IIRC, including overbore, new pistons, and one exhaust port thread repair.

[rbleau]

Today, the left 40mm carb from the RS was used to replace a faulty one on my red/bronze 1977 R100S - and all is well ! This was a last resort troubleshooting method, as we had been through the left carb twice now, replacing O-rings, gasket, cleaning, inspecting, etc.

The sympton was stumbling off idle. Bike idled fine (on idle jet), and at lots of throttle - i.e. running on main jet, it ran well, but when on needle / CV jet, it stumbled badly. So, the needle and vacuum system are the prime suspects.

The RS carb had been rebuilt by Pete, but had not had gasoline in it since 1989, ...so fingers crossed - triple check everything, hit the starter switch ( I really do not miss kick starters that much) and ...and ...YAY !!! All is well.

The bad carb has been put in the time-out box where it can contemplate its sins and so on - for further troubleshooting at a time of our choosing. Or maybe make a boat anchor or doorstop out of it.

Now, back to the RS Barn Bike -- the frame and engine (block, cylinders etc) now reside with Mike B. in Terrell, Texas where it may once again some day come to life.
:usa

[orbitangel]

The bad carb has been put in the time-out box where it can contemplate its sins and so on -

Have you considered WATERBOARDING that carb - make it come clean?

Oh, sorry! That's not PC. Scratch that idea. Do something more humane; immerse it in Gunk Hydro Seal! :whistle