Wheels/Tubes

[Acejones]

Excuse my ignorance again. I just acquired a '83R80RT with snowflake wheels. It has new Michelins on it and has tubes in the tires. Is there any good reason to run tubes in an alloy wheel ?

[20774]

Akin to the recent sidestand/centerstand topics, this will also generate some interesting responses. AFAIK, the snowflakes were never meant to run tubeless although people do it and have done it for quite a few miles. I don't think they leak perse (ie, are not porous enough) but the rim does not have the proper ridges to properly hold a tubeless tire. So there's a danger of a rapid deflation if the rim can't hold the tire bead.

[Acejones]

Thanks; that does make sense, although one must wonder why the
german genius engineers failed to design a proper rim.

[brickrider]

Thanks; that does make sense, although one must wonder why the
german genius engineers failed to design a proper rim.

They did - for later model bikes. The German engineers are slower to bring about changes into the marketplace, as in the case of tubeless tire rims; the idea being that more of the bugs are worked out before the consumer starts using them. (That's the theory, anyway.)

The tube/tubeless subject has been beaten to death. The bottom line is that it is a safety issue. The rim can be run without a tube. I did in the 80s, but am not proud of it, and would not do it again, especially armed with current knowledge.

You have a 1980s technology bike, and the safest means to keep the rubber side down is to use it as designed.

Yes, I know tubes are a hassle. That's part of the nostalgia. If you really desire a bike with tubeless tires, best bet is to sell that bike and move up to a newer model in the technology food chain.

Ride Safely,
BrickRider

[20774]

I hadn't kept up with the later run of Airhead bikes and found out recently that they have spoke rims that run tubeless....I think the GS series did as well as the 1200C..probably others. I saw those rims at a dealer and thought that made a lot of sense.

[bikerfish1100]

I hadn't kept up with the later run of Airhead bikes and found out recently that they have spoke rims that run tubeless....I think the GS series did as well as the 1200C..probably others. I saw those rims at a dealer and thought that made a lot of sense.

spoked rims that run tubeless was first developed for the GS serives bikes- with the idea being that a spoked rim is preferable/lighter in the dirt over a cast wheel. the dirving force was the advent and proliferation of tubeless tires, with the concommittant decline of tubed tire options.

but running tubes in tires that are mounted on rims designed to run tubed tires is the only intelligent course of action.
why didn't BMW have tubeless rims in '83? tire technology hadn't advanced to the degree that would necessitate those changes.

interetingly, many of the advances in modern m/c suspension, braking and chassis development had to wait until tire technology had advanced to such a degree to support the other changes. things don't happen in a vacuum!

[lkchris]

Thanks; that does make sense, although one must wonder why the
german genius engineers failed to design a proper rim.


The rim is "proper" for using tubes. The bikes came from the factory with tubes. Any more questions?

Are tubes a hassle? Try fixing a tubeless flat on the road before you answer.

[Acejones]

Back in my previous life I was a service manager for two automobile dealers (Honda) and (British Leyland, Fiat) and managed a foreign car parts distributor in the early 70's. I understand about the progress of technology. In 1983 when this bike was built, there were about a billion automobiles riding around on tubeless tires. The motorcycle engineers were probably using rotary dial phones and party lines at that point. They should have walked across the parking lot to see what their automotive brothers were doing.

[orbitangel]

Excuse my ignorance again. I just acquired a '83R80RT with snowflake wheels. It has new Michelins on it and has tubes in the tires. Is there any good reason to run tubes in an alloy wheel ?

AJ

Oh, boy! here we go again!

Let me relate an experience I had back in 1979, on my FIRST '77 R100RS. That bike (as my current one does) had Lester wheels. (They could just as easily have been Snowflake wheels, as my next RS had.)

I will spare you many of the annoying details but here's the bottom line:

At dusk, on an old, CONCRETE State highway in Oklahoma, 4th of July (as in HOT) I drove through a giant "pothole" at 105 MPH, right after I had just passed two fully-loaded wheat harvest trucks (semis) which were doing about 85 MPH.

That old concrete road had been patched, thousands of times, with asphalt.

Some of those soft, gooey patches had been beaten down by the harvest truck traffic.

One of those patches was about 15 feet long (along the length of the highway) and about two feet wide. It was like a very gradual "ramp" which ended with a sharp, NINE INCH step of jagged concrete.

This particular "patch" didn't look any different (at dusk) than the countless other dark smudges on the light colored road.

I never knew what hit me (what I hit, actually.)

It felt like I had just ridden through an invisible brick wall. The impact was just UNBELIEVABLE!

The impact was so violent that it tore those little RS bars right out of my hands.

I found myself in a tank slapper at 105 MPH with my hands OFF the bars, engine off and coasting on two VERY lumpy wheels, two 86,000 pound trucks coming-up behind me at 85 MPH. Not an altogether desirable situation.

I grabbed the bars firmly and the bike snapped out of the wobble (I was VERY glad that I had the damper set on "2") and continued to coast, feeling that I was riding on two square wheels. I had NO IDEA why the engine had quit.

I coasted to a stop on the narrow shoulder, wondering what the HELL had just happened, just as those two trucks went whizzing right by. They has no idea whatsoever that I had encountered a "problem."

Time to take stock. The damage: Two Lester wheels severely bent (enough to crack both front and rear rims.) Rear axle bent at L/H axle bearing, subframe buckled at L/H upper shock mount.

The engine had quit because my right thumb had brushed across the kill switch as the bars came out of my hands.

BOTH tires remained inflated!!!

Had I been riding on tubeless tires, I'd have become hamburger that day. Period. No ifs, ands or buts.

New Hondas of the era all came fitted with tubeless tires. Do you suspect that I would have preferred to do this on a Honda? If you do, you'd be wrong.

Tubeless tires may be the latest and greatest - low unsprung weight doesn't mean much when you are trying to ride on two flat tires at the Century mark.

I rode 40 more miles home on those bent rims - not too pleased but alive.

You are welcome to run those Snowflake wheels tubless, if you think that is better. I won't!

BTW two other BMWs (ahead of me) hit that too (at much lower speeds) and both were damaged. One of those riders had the wind knocked out of him by his Elephantboy tank bag.

I have had many, MANY close calls on motorcycles, some of them were pretty scary. Not one of them ever came close to this particular incident and I was real skittish for many months after it happened.

We report; You decide!

[108625]

Back in my previous life I was a service manager for two automobile dealers (Honda) and (British Leyland, Fiat) and managed a foreign car parts distributor in the early 70's. I understand about the progress of technology. In 1983 when this bike was built, there were about a billion automobiles riding around on tubeless tires. The motorcycle engineers were probably using rotary dial phones and party lines at that point. They should have walked across the parking lot to see what their automotive brothers were doing.

While they were at it, they should have asked how the all the car guys in the world can get a dry clutch to slide back and forth on input shaft splines without relubing it:brow

[Acejones]

While they were at it, they should have asked how the all the car guys in the world can get a dry clutch to slide back and forth on input shaft splines without relubing it:brow

Another interesting point.

[JeffMunn]

spoked rims that run tubeless was first developed for the GS serives bikes- with the idea being that a spoked rim is preferable/lighter in the dirt over a cast wheel. the dirving force was the advent and proliferation of tubeless tires, with the concommittant decline of tubed tire options.


I might beg to differ on the reason for spoked rims over cast rims for the GS series. Lightness might have been one of many reasons, but the ablility to absorb sustained and recurring shocks without metal fatigue and subsequent failure is most likely the main reason. That is why you will never see cast rims on true dual purpose bikes, and most serious adventure touring companies will not accept a rider on a bike with cast rims. Spoked wheels have a give and flex that cast rims will never offer. Cast rims are for street use. Spoked rims can do both on and off pavement.

In spite of the wonderful design of the GS spoked tubeless rims, I've always carried tubes on my long range trips. Believe it or not, there are things that will poke a hole in a tire that a plug can't fill. And it you are a long way from home, that tube will help get you back when your plug kit fails and AAA won't come get you. :)

jeff

[orbitangel]

Another interesting point. (RE: spline lubes)

Ace,

I can see that my argument for tubes was a persuasive one...

Not to worry. Something like that could never happen to you.

[Acejones]

Orbitangel,
Don't know what your problem is. I understand and agree with the points that were made about the need for tubes. I still think that in many instances the German engineers have been slow to adapt to technology advances. I like my BMW's, but I don't think the Germans have a "lock" on doing everything the best way.
All I did was ask a simple question in order to understand the purpose and application of something.

[orbitangel]

Orbitangel,
Don't know what your problem is. I understand and agree with the points that were made about the need for tubes. I still think that in many instances the German engineers have been slow to adapt to technology advances. I like my BMW's, but I don't think the Germans have a "lock" on doing everything the best way.
All I did was ask a simple question in order to understand the purpose and application of something.

Ace, my good man! I have no problem whatsoever with you. I am not here to defend German engineers, Japanese engineers, Italian engineers nor any OTHER engineers.

Besides, the engineering we are talking about was on the market thirty years ago.

The new, shiny, technically advanced (in its day) Honda CX-500 I had came from the factory (in 1978) with tubeless tires installed. Weren't they just GREAT?

If I had been unfortunate enough to have been on my Honda, the day I hit that pothole, I would now be (almost) thirty years in my grave.

EVERYBODY rides on tubeless tires, nowadays; aren't they wonderful?

It's even better that road hazards (in our new, modern, technically advanced era) are, like the tube-type tire, now simply relics of the past. Potholes no longer exist!

AJ, you are free to sift through all the data, and make your own decisions on what is important an what to ignore. You will still be my friend in either case.

I do feel obligated to report what facts I have gleaned over time, in hopes that someone might benefit from hearing about what very nearly took me out.

BTW, if somebody will please be kind enough to explain to me what kind of superior riding technique I can employ when both my tires suddenly go flat at 100 MPH, I will be very happy to listen, and to implement when that day comes.

No hard feelings at all, Ace. :thumb We are still pals, right?

[crazydrummerdude]

Orbitangel, I think I've read your story before. But, man.. I don't know if I could have come out of that alive.

[Acejones]

Fair enough Orbitangel; we're still friends. However, I don't know if going 100mph on these things is a good idea. Just me.

I will be asking more questions and, of course, questioning answers. again, it's just my nature.

[bikerfish1100]

Orbitangel- i've read your comments on the dangers of tubeless tires, and how they will leave you flat.
but i'm curious- is this something you have experienced, or have some other empirical info on? because i can speak from personal experience- but at "not quite" 100 mph levels.
I hit a cutaway around a manhole in the center of the road at around 40 (my bad, i was talking to my cousin on the back, as we went to DMV to do the paperwork on his purchase of my K75). Smacked hard going in, and again going out of it- probably a 6" lip or so on each side. Checked the rims, nothing too obvious, tires did fine. Ended up denting both rims enough so that i needd to have them straightened (even the rear ding induced a shimmy at around 45 mph)- but tires held fine, never lost air. Not sure what would happen at higher speeds.
The guy who repaired them for me http://www.mcwheel.com/ explained that in Europe, wheels are designed to be somewhat malleable, which will actually INCREASE the ability of the tire to hold air pressure in event of a major hit. What they do not want on the hi speed Autobahns is a catastrophic failure at speed, sending carnage and shrapnel everywhere. Lose the wheel, save the lives. (he reapirs Porsche, M-B and BMW wheels on a regular basis, along with m/c rims).
Methinks the BMW alloy rims we ride on are much more capable than you have implied them to be. :wave

[krehmkej]

Mcwheel ironed a dent out of my front snowflake rim. No problemo. Came out perfect.

[crazydrummerdude]

but i'm curious- is this something you have experienced

Did you miss his post on post #9 of this thread? Compelling stuff.

[shire2000]

And something else about Snowflake wheels. They are Cast Steel and freaking heavy compared to lots of other wheels of the same size. They will take a huge hit and survive much better than lots of those other wheels as well.

As to putting tubes in them, I see no reason not to. They were designed to use tubes and tube type tires. Why not stick with what they were designed to use?

Also, these bikes are very capable of speeds in excess of 100MPH. Again, they were designed for it and if kept in appropriate level on maintenance they will continue to be very capable.

[bikerfish1100]

Did you miss his post on post #9 of this thread? Compelling stuff.


no, I read his posts, including the fractured bike incident. i've also read Orbitangel's disparaging comments about BMW alloy wheels shod with tubeless tires, and felt compelled to ask about his experience with them.

[535is]

no, I read his posts, including the fractured bike incident. i've also read Orbitangel's disparaging comments about BMW alloy wheels shod with tubeless tires, and felt compelled to ask about his experience with them.

:brow

[rbleau]

It is a cost / risk / benefit analysis. My personal experience suggests that using tubes provides a form of both “belt and suspenders” to hold up one’s trousers, and the benefit outweighs the additional cost and inconvenience.

A similar example: use of Safety wire on nuts and bolts. Safety wire is used extensively in aviation, often in auto / bike racing, rarely on production cars and bikes.

The probability of failure / consequence of failure analysis between autos and bikes would be an interesting thing to quantify. Loss of one wheel/tire on an auto is likely a lesser consequence than loss of one wheel or tire on a motorcycle.

I took a nail once in a nearly new tubeless tire on my 1988 Kawasaki 750R. I lived 4 miles from a Vance & Hines shop. They put a racing tube in that tubeless tire and gave me a good to go. And go I did ! Rode Angeles Crest every weekend for a year or so.

So, there you have two cents: cost / risk / benefit algorithm.

Cheers / Ron :thumb

[orbitangel]

Orbitangel- i've read your comments on the dangers of tubeless tires, and how they will leave you flat.
but i'm curious- is this something you have experienced, or have some other empirical info on? because i can speak from personal experience- but at "not quite" 100 mph levels.
I hit a cutaway around a manhole in the center of the road at around 40 (my bad, i was talking to my cousin on the back, as we went to DMV to do the paperwork on his purchase of my K75). Smacked hard going in, and again going out of it- probably a 6" lip or so on each side. Checked the rims, nothing too obvious, tires did fine. Ended up denting both rims enough so that i needd to have them straightened (even the rear ding induced a shimmy at around 45 mph)- but tires held fine, never lost air. Not sure what would happen at higher speeds.
The guy who repaired them for me http://www.mcwheel.com/ explained that in Europe, wheels are designed to be somewhat malleable, which will actually INCREASE the ability of the tire to hold air pressure in event of a major hit. What they do not want on the hi speed Autobahns is a catastrophic failure at speed, sending carnage and shrapnel everywhere. Lose the wheel, save the lives. (he reapirs Porsche, M-B and BMW wheels on a regular basis, along with m/c rims).
Methinks the BMW alloy rims we ride on are much more capable than you have implied them to be. :wave

Bikerfish,

I hardly know where to begin...

I'm not sure what think you read but I clearly described an incident that actually happened to me, personally.

You wrote: " i'm curious- is this something you have experienced, or have some other empirical info on? because i can speak from personal experience- but at "not quite" 100 mph levels."

As I stated, this DID happen. It happened to ME and it happened at 105 MPH. That is what I wrote in my post.

I said nothing about Snowflake wheels (except in passing.) I was riding on LESTER wheels and I said so.

You also wrote: "Methinks the BMW alloy rims we ride on are much more capable than you have implied them to be."

In a later post, you added: "i've also read Orbitangel's disparaging comments about BMW alloy wheels shod with tubeless tires, and felt compelled to ask about his experience with them.

WHAT disparaging comments about BMW alloy wheels? What are you talking about?

I NEVER made any disparaging remark(s) about BMW alloy wheels! Neither did I IMPLY that there is anything wrong with them.

I will admit that my experience riding on Snowflake wheels is limited.

My second RS, a 1978 model, had them. I liked them just fine but I only rode about 50K miles on those. That's not much - most MOA members ride that far before lunch.

One time I accidentally rode straight over one of those cast iron "turtles" (lane dividers) in Dallas.

I was hypothermic at that moment and reacted too slowly to avoid it. The front rim straddled that "turtle" and the rims were spread, slightly.

This happened at perhaps 10 MPH. Yes, that wheel was "malleable." The wheel might have been repairable but Perry Bushong (BMW of Ft. Worth) advised against it.

I continued to ride on it for a time (damage was pretty minor) and had it replaced for free on the wheel recall.

I always ran tubes in my Snowflakes. Anyone who prefers to run them tubeless is free to do so. I won't.

Bikerfish, I like you just fine, personally, but if you are going to attribute certain statements to me, I appreciate it if they were accurate. :thumb

[orbitangel]

And something else about Snowflake wheels. They are Cast Steel and freaking heavy compared to lots of other wheels of the same size. They will take a huge hit and survive much better than lots of those other wheels as well.

As to putting tubes in them, I see no reason not to. They were designed to use tubes and tube type tires. Why not stick with what they were designed to use?

Also, these bikes are very capable of speeds in excess of 100MPH. Again, they were designed for it and if kept in appropriate level on maintenance they will continue to be very capable.

Dave,

They are cast aluminum. But you knew that.

Every other statement you made is absolutely true and correct. :thumb

[bikerfish1100]

orbitangel-
this was your comment that made me think you were denigrating tubeless tires & rims:

"EVERYBODY rides on tubeless tires, nowadays; aren't they wonderful?

It's even better that road hazards (in our new, modern, technically advanced era) are, like the tube-type tire, now simply relics of the past. Potholes no longer exist!"

the sarcasm was thick, but the point seemed obvious that you thought tubeless were a step backward from safety.
that sure sounded like you were lauding the safety factor of tubed tires on Lesters, and seemed to be slamming the ability of tubeless to remain attached. i was asking if you had experience with tubelss going bad on a big hit, not experience on tubed staying safe (i got that part- glad you came thru it okay!).

if i read more into your post than was there- my apology.
my point was that i didn't want people coming away thinking that tubed tires were somehow miraculously superior to tubelss, when fitted to a modern rim designed to take them.

that Honda Comstar wheel was a joke.

[Acejones]

I'm really glad I started this topic

[RandyB]

I'm really glad I started this topic

Riding weather will not get here soon enough. Makes me want global warming.

[shire2000]

orbitangel,

No, I have 5 of them in my garage right now, all of 1980/81 vintage. All of them are cast steel. One of them got badly damaged in an accident and was replaced. After the accident and replacing the damaged one, I had left it outside over a winter. It actually has rust in an area where it was broken. I know living here in the Pacific NorthWet we don't tan, we rust, but have never seen aluminum actually rust before. Plus they are heavy as hell compared to larger cast wheels from other manufacturers. Those I expect to be aluminum or some other lightweight alloy.

[kstoo]

Wait .....

:grouphug

krap! there isn't a smilie for that one.

I was curious so I put a magnet on a snowflake. The magnet fell off. No attraction whatsoever, just like me and good-looking red-haired women. It might be an aluminum alloy with a small amount of iron (?) or a low grade stainless or ...

When you start a thread doesn't it give you the option of making a poll out of it? I would really like to see thread polls on certain subjects so that I would know where certain people stand on certain controversies ... I'm being facetious here! But still ...


tubed or tubeless
factory stock or caffeinated
park on sidestand or centerstand
part it out or rescue it
rescue it and face the wrath of those who think it's too much expense you fool
paper or plastic
credit or debit


:grouphug
Why can't we be friends? I'm going over to advrider.com old skool for awhile until it quiets down over here!! Yeah, I know that's not the way to spell skool but sheesh they is having fun!!

Like PinkKissRider says ... xoxo ... I know its not the same coming from me.

[crazydrummerdude]

i was asking if you had experience with tubelss going bad on a big hit, not experience on tubed staying safe (i got that part- glad you came thru it okay!).

I got that the second time I read your post. Unfortunately, I replied after only reading it once.

Regardless, good news everyone! My tires (and tubes :p) for my R90 shipped..

:blah

[orbitangel]

orbitangel-
this was your comment that made me think you were denigrating tubeless tires & rims:

"EVERYBODY rides on tubeless tires, nowadays; aren't they wonderful?

It's even better that road hazards (in our new, modern, technically advanced era) are, like the tube-type tire, now simply relics of the past. Potholes no longer exist!"

the sarcasm was thick, but the point seemed obvious that you thought tubeless were a step backward from safety.
that sure sounded like you were lauding the safety factor of tubed tires on Lesters, and seemed to be slamming the ability of tubeless to remain attached. i was asking if you had experience with tubelss going bad on a big hit, not experience on tubed staying safe (i got that part- glad you came thru it okay!).

if i read more into your post than was there- my apology.
my point was that i didn't want people coming away thinking that tubed tires were somehow miraculously superior to tubelss, when fitted to a modern rim designed to take them.

that Honda Comstar wheel was a joke.

Bikerfish,

You commented:

a. "the sarcasm was thick, but the point seemed obvious that ..."

b. "...you thought tubeless were a step backward from safety."

On your first point, I'll have to give credit where credit is due.

Yes, the sarcasm was thick - it was INTENDED to be a good-natured sarcasm but I can see how it could have been seen as a snarky, spiteful kind of sarcasm.

I did not INTEND for it to come off that way. If the language was offensive, I apologize for my ability to generate sarcasm.

On your second point: A step backward from safety?

I have no hard data on this (maybe the NHTSA has such data - I don't know.)

What I believe I DO know is this. MODERN motorcycles are carefully designed to maximize performance and reduce weight.

Given modern design tools, engineers are able to pare structural elements down to bare minimums.

There is nothing wrong with this; it is how they achieve the exceptional performance, low unsprung weight, amazing handling and braking.

Motorcycles no longer drag around the excess structure (weight) they once had - when the HAD to be overdesigned to achieve adequate structural margins.

If you're talking about street bikes, they are designed to run on relatively smooth roads. I am sure there are margins there for the "unexpected."

I'd be pretty surprised if they were designed to withstand riding them directly into a sharp, NINE INCH, concrete step, at speeds exceeding 100 MPH.

Neither was my old R100RS! But it was overdesigned (i.e. too heavy.)

The bike was damaged. I don't know whether you'd call it SERIOUS damage but it required a new subframe, new swingarm, new rear axle, and 2 new wheels which, in my case were Lesters. BMW Snowflake wheels would likely have survived but would have been junk, just like my Lesters were.

If I had been riding on spoked wheels, I believe the spokes would have not only punctured both tubes but that the (spoked) wheels also would have collapsed since (unlike the Lesters or Snowflakes) those spokes can't absorb any compression loads. That would have been UGLY.

The MAIN point is this: If one or both of your tires suddenly deflate at 100 MPH or better, you are pretty damned unlikely to remain upright. Your chances of staying up are virtually zero.

The TUBES were the ONLY thing which prevented this scenario on my bike, that day.

You could probably survive a spill at that speed (if you were lucky) but you won't if you are surrounded by heavy, high speed truck traffic when you go down.

Your final point:

c. "...my point was that i didn't want people coming away thinking that tubed tires were somehow miraculously superior to tubelss, when fitted to a modern rim designed to take them."

You are quite right. Tubed tires are NOT miraculously superior to tubeless tires, when fitted to a modern rim, designed to take them.

But I'll wager that you can ride any modern BMW (or any other make) into that same "road hazard" that I hit, and both (tubeless) tires will instantly deflate.

In all probability, you will NEVER encounter such a situation - I hope you don't!

But you SHOULD know your risks. There are NO guarantees!

Look, I'm not here to rag on anybody, nor to denigrate anybody's bike, nor to pick a fight.

I simply answered a question about "tubes vs tubeless."

I do NOT claim to know all the answers. But I DO have a point to make, if anyone is listening.

Thanks for your input, everybody and this is (I promise) my final word on the matter. :thumb

[Yockyrides]

Learned my leasson through experience. Was stranded by a flat tire one beautiful Sunday, July 3, in rural upstate New York. A wonderful couple took me in for the night and drove me 30 miles to a general store the next day (July 4) so that I could pick up the 18 inch tube I needed to keep riding. That happened on a Kawasaki KZ440 but it could have been any bike.

Several years later, I stopped to help an elderly couple change a tire on I-90. They drove off relieved and then I pulled out after them and took a nail in my rear sidewall. This time I had a tube.

Summer 2001 riding on the Blue Ridge Parkway just north of Asheville, I was was flagged down by a biker (term used intentionally) whose buddies were stuck a few miles north with a flat. Their first ever long distance ride, 4 bikes, not a tool or tube between them. They were slack jawed as I produced a tube (lucky it was same size they needed), my tool kit, the stubby Beemer air pump, some Calgon hand soap, and rags. Turned down the money offered. Told them to pass along the kindness. My risk was riding back home without the spare tube. But hey, I've only had 7 or so flats in 28 years.

Carrying a tube makes sense.