spline lube a dealership cash cow?

[phoenixtexas]

I'm a former airhead wrench in north Texas who recently purchased my first oilhead, a R1100R, and am intrigued by the constant references to tranny spline lubes and abnormal spline wear. Properly assembled, lubricated and not abused, rear drives should be bulletproof. I have seen them go 200,000 miles or more on an airhead without a single problem. My last bike to come in, an old R100RS, had 89,000 miles after a rebuild in our shop (including stainless steel valves with hard seats) without a whimper. The customer wanted a new clutch because of wear from an improperly adjusted rear lever. The splines still showed red. After 30,000 miles, valve lash was still dead on and the plugs (NGK BP6EVs) clean. Not a trace of metal in the rear drive or slack in the u-joint. My question, aren't oilheads built to the same quality standards? Or is this a way for dealerships to vacuum cash? I've seen enough of it to be suspicious.

[basketcase]

I can't answer your questions from a technically knowledgable basis, or in regards to the oilheads. But my answer to the basic question, "Spline lubes being a cash cow," is a resounding "YES."

In fact, my gut tells me that the whole scheme of service schedules is overpriced.

I can do all the fluid changes on my K: crankcase, tranny, final drive, forks, brake fluid, and coolant. The retail cost of materials, even if I purchase the most expensive stuff, is less than $100.

With that figure in mind, I'll note that I was recently quoted a price of right at $900 for a 36K service on the K11. Beyond a complete fluid change, the 36k service includes a valve check and spline lube. But to the tune of $800 in labor?

I realize that properly done, the spline lube invoves quite a bit of labor in terms of splitting the cases, cleaning the splines, and reapplying fresh lube. But I would still opt to say that the spline lube is indeed a cash cow, pure and simple.

[jdiaz]

The intervals are a swag. If you ride 2000 miles a year, you probably aren't going to make it to the 40K-mile interval before needing a clutch spline lube. But the person running 20K/year can probably go a bit longer. Luckily with clutch spline lubes, the bike tells you right away when it needs attention, because it won't want to downshift.

I agree with you on fluids. Our bikes get new tranny, final drive, and brake fluids annually, coolant every other year, and oil/filter changes every 3K. Everyone's got their own level of financial pain they are willing to endure on this sort of thing....pick the one you like.

[phoenixtexas]

Thanks for writing. Wasn't trying to start a controversy, just curious. To JDiaz, if there was clutch sticking related to the splines, you'd feel it in the clutch lever first upon disengagement. Clutch operation can give you almost as much information as spark plug reading. On new clutch jobs, I always mirror polished all sliding surfaces with an air compressor tool, took about 10 minutes. Like I said, one of my bikes came in with nearly 90,000 miles and the clutch still like butter and red still on the assembly. If there's a problem with the oilheads, it has to be an alignment or rough surface issue, something that's scraping lubricant away. Next spline lube, ask your wrench to humor you and do the polishing. To RickM, yeah, all this stuff is way overpriced, and the airheads had their own cash cow also, specifically the charging system. But be thankful you don't own a Harley, BMW can't hold a candle to that company's shakedown. With a Harley, you better take a jar of Vaseline with you to the dealership.

[Mr. Frank]

All that talk about spline lubes refers to the older K bikes, not the oilheads. The rear drive spline lube is a very easy do it yourself job every 10,000 miles. The clutch spline lube at 40,000 miles is expensive to have done at a dealer, but that's not a frequent task. Failure to perform these tasks can get really pricey.

In practice, lots of people don't keep up with this service, and a subsequent buyer experiences a failure.

[Fang]

Originally posted by phoenixtexas
Thanks for writing. Wasn't trying to start a controversy, just curious. To JDiaz, if there was clutch sticking related to the splines, you'd feel it in the clutch lever first upon disengagement. Clutch operation can give you almost as much information as spark plug reading. On new clutch jobs, I always mirror polished all sliding surfaces with an air compressor tool, took about 10 minutes. Like I said, one of my bikes came in with nearly 90,000 miles and the clutch still like butter and red still on the assembly. If there's a problem with the oilheads, it has to be an alignment or rough surface issue, something that's scraping lubricant away. Next spline lube, ask your wrench to humor you and do the polishing. To RickM, yeah, all this stuff is way overpriced, and the airheads had their own cash cow also, specifically the charging system. But be thankful you don't own a Harley, BMW can't hold a candle to that company's shakedown. With a Harley, you better take a jar of Vaseline with you to the dealership.

What PhoenixTexas said! I have no experience in these matters, but I have had some experience with German cars, including BMWs, and I'm starting to smell a rat, here. It's starting to look like K-bikes and Oilheads are indeed "cash cows" to the dealers; lets face it, high-priced parts and expensive service are both designed to vacuum cash from customers, and to make the dealer rich. I don't mind the dealer making a reasonable profit, and a reasonable living, but sending his daughter to Harvard is not my idea of enjoying my motorcycle. I don't want to go Japanese, but I may have to in order to be able to ride without anxiety.

Has anyone here checked out the calamities on AdvRider forums? The grotesque things that go wrong with brand new bikes, and the corporate arrogance of BMW NA in dealing with those issues, is appalling. One unfortunate Englishman, MikeO, flat refuses to add up what it's cost him to ride his new BMW Adv across America, but just eyeballing his repair bills, replacement parts list and scheduled maintenance, it's fairly clear to me that he could have rented a Rolls-Royce and driven across America for what he's paid for the "privilege" of riding his BMW, and I'm specifically excluding the purchase price here. Plus, he wouldn't have been "knackered" at the end of each day's riding, even with his Mayer custom seat. What's wrong with this picture, boys and girls? Now go check out the Kawasaki 1600 Vulcan site; they talk about replacing the stock horn with a louder one, things like that, and they don't know what a valve adjustment is. I don't want a Kaw, but I don't want to buy a cash cow for the dealer either.

Another customer purchased a new BMW bike right off the showroom floor, because his "current" BMW flamed out on him while on his vacation with various chums; he only made it 675 miles before his brand new BMW went south on him too, refused to start, and on and on. What BMW NA put him through belies belief, until he actually started the paperwork process for a lawsuit, at which point BMW NA came around and belatedly, reluctantly, did the right thing, though with the worst possible grace. I don't see things like that happening on the GoldWing forum; in the first place, the GoldWings don't break, and when there are "issues," the factory is much more helpful than BMW NA.
I know not why - all I know is what I read.

All constructive inputs appreciated. Many thanx IA

I got distracted from the fact that both German cars and bikes seem specifically designed to be cash cows; I've half a dozen friends who are doctors, lawyers, CPAs, etc., and to a person they've sworn off German cars, because they just suck you dry after you buy 'em. BMW cars now offer "free" maintenance for the four years/50,000 miles of the warranty in order to get around their past reputations as the most expensive cars to maintain in the USA (Consumer Reports magazine). Of course, we all know that nothing's free - they just calculate the cost, add a profit margin and crank that cost into the sales price of the cars. Mercedes-Benz is even worse than BMW in many ways, and Volvo isn't much better. Swedish parts are just as expensive as German parts, and the labor isn't much cheaper, either.

Why do I have to go Japanese to get anything like my money's worth?

Actually my Ford Taurus 'wagon (2000) is pretty trouble-free so far, and parts don't cost a fortune either, but that's neither here nor there; one expects a Ford to be reasonable to maintain.

[kbasa]

I think if you rely on the dealer to maintain your bike, you're going to pay a ton of money. The oilheads, Kbikes and hexheads aren't that much different than airheads to maintain. I've owned them all. Parts prices are about the same and the big expensive parts everybody worries about failing just don't break. FI computer failures in oilheads and Kbikes? Unheard of. ABS computer failures? Once in a while. Hall Effect Sensors on oilheads? Well, in the older ones.

So, am I defending the marque? Maybe, but only to a point. I made a decision a long time ago to maintain my own bikes. It's not that difficult to do if you're willing to spend the time to learn how. If you don't, can't or aren't willing to learn how, you will be at the mercy of the dealership. You've put yourself in a position to know nothing about your bike and you should expect to pay as the people with the knowledge demand.

Are other brands any better? I don't think so. I have a Honda VFR that I dearly love. Steering head bearings, as delivered from the factory are ball bearing sets that are toast in 15K miles. That's not acceptable on a motorcycle that will easily go 100K miles. I priced a replacement by the dealer - $400. I did it myself in a couple hours in the garage, even using tapered bearings instead of the crappy original bearings, for the $80 the bearings and seals cost me.

Cars? We seriously considered a BMW 3 series this time, but we bought an Infiniti G35 Sport Coupe instead. Japanese reliability, big power and a price tag that was less than an equivalently equipped BMW. I know that I can't do anything to that car and factored cost of service into the equation at purchase, even knowing that BMW offers three years of scheduled maintenance in the purchase price.

So, if you're not prepared to learn how to repair and understand your own motorcycle, you've placed yourself at the mercy of whatever service organization you choose to pay. I have four bikes in my garage and maintain them myself (with rare exception). If I had to pay every time I needed to have the oil changed, brake pads replaced or any of the other things motorcycles require as they age, I'd only have two.

Ya pays your money as ya sees fit.

[jgr451]

There is some truth to what Kbasa says.I am not sure which side of the "cash cow"repulsive belief I am on.I am appalled to read of the number of big failures on pretty new bikes that do not seem to have happy endings for their owners.

On the other hand,I once had a 1969 Chevelle Malibu with a 307 CID V8 and a 2 speed auto trans.As basic as can be.I had a bad driver point at me and chase me across 4 lanes on Portage Avenue in Winnipeg.In the avoidance manouver I broke off the turn signal stalk.I had to buy a new stalk complete with wiring harness.I diddled and played,had the steering wheel off,etc.Could not figure out how to get the old harness out and the new harness in.Went to a garage finally and asked.The guy said we can do it for x big dollars.I didn't know how so I said OK.It was done in 10 minutes.I paid x big dollars.At the time I thought,dirty trick.

The moral?

You pay people to KNOW what to do,not just for doing it.
Same holds true in my work.Knowledge is what you pay for.

[Fang]

Originally posted by KBasa
I think if you rely on the dealer to maintain your bike, you're going to pay a ton of money. The oilheads, Kbikes and hexheads aren't that much different than airheads to maintain. I've owned them all. Parts prices are about the same and the big expensive parts everybody worries about failing just don't break. FI computer failures in oilheads and Kbikes? Unheard of. ABS computer failures? Once in a while. Hall Effect Sensors on oilheads? Well, in the older ones.

So, am I defending the marque? Maybe, but only to a point. I made a decision a long time ago to maintain my own bikes. It's not that difficult to do if you're willing to spend the time to learn how. If you don't, can't or aren't willing to learn how, you will be at the mercy of the dealership. You've put yourself in a position to know nothing about your bike and you should expect to pay as the people with the knowledge demand.

Are other brands any better? I don't think so. I have a Honda VFR that I dearly love. Steering head bearings, as delivered from the factory are ball bearing sets that are toast in 15K miles. That's not acceptable on a motorcycle that will easily go 100K miles. I priced a replacement by the dealer - $400. I did it myself in a couple hours in the garage, even using tapered bearings instead of the crappy original bearings, for the $80 the bearings and seals cost me.

Cars? We seriously considered a BMW 3 series this time, but we bought an Infiniti G35 Sport Coupe instead. Japanese reliability, big power and a price tag that was less than an equivalently equipped BMW. I know that I can't do anything to that car and factored cost of service into the equation at purchase, even knowing that BMW offers three years of scheduled maintenance in the purchase price.

So, if you're not prepared to learn how to repair and understand your own motorcycle, you've placed yourself at the mercy of whatever service organization you choose to pay. I have four bikes in my garage and maintain them myself (with rare exception). If I had to pay every time I needed to have the oil changed, brake pads replaced or any of the other things motorcycles require as they age, I'd only have two.

Ya pays your money as ya sees fit.

Ironic that you should mention the Infinity G35 coupe. The lawyer that I mentioned above as one of my circle of friends who have sworn off of German cars has himself recently bought a G-35 coupe and loves it - and has been bugging me to buy one! I went for a test drive and I'm hooked! Got that little rocket from 65 MPH to over 100 MPH in no time flat, and without fanfare. This guy doesn't know a lugnut from a sparkplug, but he's very good with money, and very good at vacuuming money from his law clients (!). He's not amused when someone does it to him, and after two M-Bs, it ain't gonna happen again. His wife now drives a Nissan Murano, after two expensive mistakes with M-Class M-B SUVs and an E-Class wagon.

The whole thing makes me weak in the knees, really, the way the BMW motorcycle experience is structured to cost the rider so much; and I haven't even talked about depreciation yet! Maybe I just can't afford this......I dunno........but the more I look into it, the less fun it seems to be.

Anyway, thanks a million for all your input, and your patience. I've greatly enjoyed your posts, and I think your wife is fantastic!
You're a lucky dude, and you may quote me at will!

Later.......

[kbasa]

Thanks, fang. I really do appreciate that. And yes, I know, every minute of every day, that I'm lucky to be married to her. I definitely married up.

Way up.

[rocketman]

Originally posted by Fang

Has anyone here checked out the calamities on AdvRider forums? The grotesque things that go wrong with brand new bikes, and the corporate arrogance of BMW NA in dealing with those issues, is appalling. One unfortunate Englishman, MikeO, flat refuses to add up what it's cost him to ride his new BMW Adv across America, but just eyeballing his repair bills, replacement parts list and scheduled maintenance, it's fairly clear to me that he could have rented a Rolls-Royce and driven across America for what he's paid for the "privilege" of riding his BMW, and I'm specifically excluding the purchase price here. Plus, he wouldn't have been "knackered" at the end of each day's riding, even with his Mayer custom seat. What's wrong with this picture, boys and girls? Now go check out the Kawasaki 1600 Vulcan site; they talk about replacing the stock horn with a louder one, things like that, and they don't know what a valve adjustment is. I don't want a Kaw, but I don't want to buy a cash cow for the dealer either.



As I’ve been reading the various forums over the past months I have found myself wondering about this issue of the reliability/major calamities experienced by owners of the newer machines, compared to kinds of problems owners of the older bikes, airheads in particular, experiance. At first it seemed that most problems reported by owners of the new bikes involved complete failure of the machine to operate, while most problems/tech questions with the older bikes seemed to be more related to partial failures wherein the machine still ran, but poorly. Based on that, I was tempted to come to the conclusion that new machines just aren't built as well or are more prone to failure than older bikes. Yet the more I think about it, I have to say that it may perhaps be a somewhat biased conclusion and that to get a real feel for the truth one has to look at it from the standpoint of what percentage of new machines are reporting problems compared to the percentage of older machines. Given the fact there are many more new machines on the road, it is not unreasonable to assume that there will more posts on problems from owners of new machines than older ones, yet the overall percentage of new bikes with problems, may in fact, be less than those reported for old ones. It does appear that due to the interdependency of the various sensors (and perhaps complexity as well) new bikes are more prone to complete failure to run when something goes bad but that doesn’t mean they are More likely to experience failure, it just tends to have a more serious impact When (and that is a big When) they do go. and not just BMW’s, but any complex machine. I also realize this could be a purposefully engineered design to prevent further damage/failure of other dependant parts, but being left stranded is not a good feeling and would tend to make anyone more angry/upset than simply experiencing poor performance till proper repairs can be made. And that may be another aspect of why those problems are more often related, people tend to blow off more steam the more pissed they are.

RM

[rocketman]

Originally posted by KBasa
I think if you rely on the dealer to maintain your bike, you're going to pay a ton of money. The oilheads, Kbikes and hexheads aren't that much different than airheads to maintain. I've owned them all. Parts prices are about the same and the big expensive parts everybody worries about failing just don't break. FI computer failures in oilheads and Kbikes? Unheard of. ABS computer failures? Once in a while. Hall Effect Sensors on oilheads? Well, in the older ones.


So, if you're not prepared to learn how to repair and understand your own motorcycle, you've placed yourself at the mercy of whatever service organization you choose to pay. I have four bikes in my garage and maintain them myself (with rare exception). If I had to pay every time I needed to have the oil changed, brake pads replaced or any of the other things motorcycles require as they age, I'd only have two.

Ya pays your money as ya sees fit.


True to a point, but keep in mind that the fact is that not everyone is comfortable, or even capable of doing much more than very basic service, mechanical ability varies widely between individuals, so while some, such as yourself, may be comfortable doing some of the more complex tasks, like removing a transmission, that may well not be true for everyone. So sometimes it's not a mater of willingness it is simply a lack of ability or available space/time/tool/etc. that prevents them from accomplishing what is easy for others. Perhaps that an overreaction to your statement but the last line could be taken to imply that you feel they have “actively” put themselves in a position to be at the mercy of the dealership hwen for some it may not be a matter of choice at all. And one also has to consider how such self performed maintenance impacts to the warranty, all too often I hear of problems with getting coverage on a new vehicle because some work was performed outside the dealer, not necessarily with BMW’s but with new vehicles in general.

As to cash cow issue that others has discussed, again it is something that is very easy to believe at first glance. When I saw the cost for the yearly check-up that my SO got hit with for her new machine, a Yamaha Silverado, for a very basic going over, just new plugs, oil change, filter, cable adjustments, general going over, I couldn’t believe my eyes, $500! Yikes! (Every time I look at that machine I get nightmares just thinking about trying to work on it, I seriously think you need to completely disassemble it just to replace the plugs, once you find them, that is!)

As to whether BMW or any other dealer network is, in fact, taking advantage of this fact, it’s hard to say without knowing a lot more than I do about the real cost to the dealer for parts, what he has to pay to get quality technicians to work for him, etc. But I can certainly see that it would be easy to believe in they are, especially when compared to what total cost of ownership was 15-20 years ago.

Makes me glad that I don’t have to rely on a dealer for my machines, though I’m in a rather unique position as I have access to an independent mechanic that been working on BMW’s for 30 years, is a close friend, has more odds and ends and parts bikes than I can count and since I ‘m still 25 years behind the times (when it comes my machines :D ) whenever I need to work on them, whatever I fell uncomfortable with, (or if I get stuck during the process myself), I just let him do that part of the job, then finish the rest myself. Saves me a ton and keeps me out of trouble by trying repairs that are beyond my knowledge. Part of the reason I stick with the older machines. Unfortunately not everyone is so lucky, and those that are truly unable to do the work are, as you say, at the mercy of the dealership, whatever the age of the machine they own.
Not at all a comfortable position!


As for new cars, one of the reasons I went with the car I recently purchased new, (first new car in 15 years!) was the 10 year /100K warranty, if something breaks, they fix it at their cost. I don't even bother looking under the hood, much less touching anything in there, I figured I was doing good when I could identify where the motor was!:D Talk about a nightmare of wires, hoses, sensors and black boxes Yikes!

RM

[phoenixtexas]

Thanks to all who've shared experiences. As a former wrench, I've seen a change in the whole dealership environment. I always went out of my way to explain a problem to a customer, knowing that the machine wasn't just another job ticket. The R-bike was the rider's true love and probably his most precious possession. This sounds corny, but I understood how the guy felt when he came in worried sick about a mechanical problem. I fixed problems as if they were on my own bike, and I told customers exactly what was needed. I just don't see this kind of attitude at dealerships anymore. The wrenches separated from most customer contact is one example. Another is skimpy parts departments (I won't even mention screwed-up orders) sharing space with overstocked racks of overpriced apparel and expanses of equally overpriced chrome doo-dads. Another is going in for tires and not having a single rep asking about your riding habits before reaching for the priciest Metzlers on his rack. Another is the disappearance of friendly, quick tech advice over the phone. This isn't a blanket indictment, because there are great shops. BMW Inc. should look at this whole issue and start asking customers what they want and what their concerns are.