Calling all Environmentalists and Public Health Workers

[atlbmw]

Does anyone have information supporting motorcycles as a green alternative transportation?

How would you argue FOR the greeness of motorcycles?

Does anyone have research? case - studies? etc.?

[hlothery]

Kenk to the white courtesy phone,

[Montana]

It's a few years old, but Andy Goldfine has some data:

http://www.ridetowork.org/files/rtw_transportation_fact_sheet.pdf

[atlbmw]

Thanks Montana.
I'm with the publication until he starts comparing a 5 mile motorcycle commute to a 6 mile car commute. Why not just compare 5 to 5 or 6 to 6? I'll send the site a note to find out more..
It's a few years old, but Andy Goldfine has some data:

http://www.ridetowork.org/files/rtw_transportation_fact_sheet.pdf

[tonkandy]

Does anyone have information supporting motorcycles as a green alternative transportation?

How would you argue FOR the greeness of motorcycles?

Does anyone have research? case - studies? etc.?

I wouldn't argue that the motorcycles we ride are a green alternative transportation.

[Montana]

I wouldn't argue that the motorcycles we ride are a green alternative transportation.I would. I've been commuting by bike since the 1980s. If you consider all I have saved in fuel, emissions, tires, service waste, etc, plus all I avoided in the manufacturing inputs necessary to keep me provided with transportation, the reduced impact I have in the parking lots and wear-and-tear on the roadways (hey, it's not my bike that ruffles that pavement...), I think there is a pretty good argument for calling it Green.

If this is just a hobby with you, and you ride as a way to spend time, that's different, of course.

[DarrylRi]

If you do a search on the board, you will find a thread or two about motorcycles and emissions. Basically, in spite of the fact that motorcycles generally get much better gas mileage than cars, they currently emit 10-20 times as much hydrocarbons and carbon monoxide than cars do.

If you want to argue that bikes are greener than cars, the way to do that is to argue that they take so much less energy to build that they save the emissions over their lifetimes and more. I think this is true, but I cannot cite any definitive research. I did once hear that a bike takes about 1/5th the energy to build as a car.

[PGlaves]

"Green" has many connotations. Typical emissions are one. CO2 emissions are the new hot button issue. Fuel consumption is an issue as well - considering the dependence on foreign oil, the energy required to refine crude oil, and the emissions caused by delivering fuel to all those gas stations by big truck. Motorcycles are green in some respects and not-so-green in others. But they beat a Hummer across the board probably.

[gossamerjohn]

I'd argue the motorcylces are "greener" on the inputs side of the equation. First, my car gets about 27mpg. My cycle gets better than 52mpg. That's a hard number to argue with. Especially given that most of the miles I put on are commuting miles and I'm going to put those miles on something. I don't have a bus service option, and I don't have have the kind of schedule that would allow me the time to ride a bicycle or walk.


Someone who truly understands "green transportation" would (or maybe "should?") argue that for a transportation to be truly green and truly viable, it has to fit into your lifestyle so that you'll make maximum use of it. If I can't go about my life and ride a bicycle without losing my job because I'm constantly late or miss appointments, it's not that useful to me, so it's non sustainable, and I'm going to choose the means of transportation that meets those demands. Even if it means cosnuming more resources. For me the happy median is the motorcycle. Far better MPG than a car, far less time consuming than a bicycle.

Also, I bought a 32-year-old motorcycle, instead of a new one. No consumption of resources to make me a new bike, I recycled an old one.

[kenk]

Does anyone have information supporting motorcycles as a green alternative transportation?

How would you argue FOR the greeness of motorcycles?

Does anyone have research? case - studies? etc.?

Here's a couple articles for your research.

http://www.latimes.com/classified/automotive/highway1/la-hy-throttle11-2008jun11,0,3268856.story?track=rss

http://epa.gov/otaq/regs/roadbike/420f03045.pdf

[PGlaves]

If you do a search on the board, you will find a thread or two about motorcycles and emissions. Basically, in spite of the fact that motorcycles generally get much better gas mileage than cars, they currently emit 10-20 times as much hydrocarbons and carbon monoxide than cars do.



I think that is true in the aggregate - but when you eliminate the remaining 2 strokes in the accumulated roadworthy (?) fleet and the moto-cross bikes, big and tiddlers, and the Asian scooters, and look at modern full-sized road bikes - the numbers aren't so bad.

And when you look further, specifically at BMWs with three-way catalytic converters and closed-loop operation the numbers get a whole lot better yet.

But detractors of anything that might be "fun" forget the details and plow ahead anyway.

Combining "motorcycles" into a single group makes as much sense as combining an H3 Hummer and a Smart Car in the same group and trying to draw meaningful conclusions.

Beware the statisticians - 6 months ago they could show that the banking industry and insurance industry were financially sound. Yeah, Right!

[SheRidesABeemer]

considering the percentage of frivolous miles I put on my bikes...I could not say there is anything green about it.

[kenk]

This one, if enforced, will most like end the production of many motorcycle manufacturers from Europe. The technology required to achieve this standard will ellipse the profit margin per unit. For BMW, the old saying is "BMW makes more money on replacement fenders for BMW cars that it makes on motorcycles." If OTL is correct, BMW AG BoD recently voted 5 to 4 to keep the motorcycle division. Take the profit margin out of the bikes and I would expect the motorcycle line to be replaced with a small hybrid car line. It all boils down to what provides the most profits for the corporation. IMHO, the writing on the wall.

http://www.acem.eu/cms/det_pressreleases.php?det=1259

[kenk]

According to the EPA, the maximum emission standard for motorcycle hydrocarbon and nitrogen oxide in the US under 2010 Tier 2 standards is currently 2.25 grams per mile, compared with .098 for automobiles, meaning a motorcycle can emit 23 times more ozone-forming pollutants as a car does and still meet EPA standards.

BMW motorcycles easily exceed the EPA Tier 2 and EURO 3 motorcycle standards. Most 2009 BMW motorcycle are emitting between .3 and .9 grams per mile. However, falls short of meeting the automobile standards of .098 (the top limit for cars). The issue isn't going to be meeting the .098 standard. BMW motorcycles will have to meet the much stricter EURO 5 standard by 2015. I would expect a much more activist administration to follow suit, not only continuing to lower the car standard, but also requiring motorcycle to meet the same standard as cars.

Automobiles use a variety of technologies to offset emissions, but these technologies tend to be too big, too heavy, or too hot to fit on a motorcycle and work as effectively as similar systems on automobiles. The technology simply doesn't exists for motorcycles and nobody has the dollars to create it. Frankly, its a bleak picture. BMW AG has appealed. However, it appears unlikely it will be overruled.

[DarrylRi]

I think that is true in the aggregate - but when you eliminate the remaining 2 strokes in the accumulated roadworthy (?) fleet and the moto-cross bikes, big and tiddlers, and the Asian scooters, and look at modern full-sized road bikes - the numbers aren't so bad.

And when you look further, specifically at BMWs with three-way catalytic converters and closed-loop operation the numbers get a whole lot better yet.

Paul, actually, those numbers are for the current California, and soon to be Federal, emissions standards. Current US EPA regs allow 1.4 g/km HC and CO; current California and 2010 US EPA regs will require less than 0.8 g/km. Current US EPA rules allow cars up to 0.05 g/km.

BMW bikes have been meeting the 2010 regulations for several years. I looked up BMW's reports to CARB (California Air Resources Board) in this thread (http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showthread.php?p=397710&postcount=77). For example, current R1200s are putting out 0.5 g/km, or ten times what current cars are allowed.

[screwtop]

I don't know why anybody cares, quite frankly. Until someone conclusively proves that CO2 is actually heating up our globe, what's the difference?. I've got nothing against being environmentally conscious. When the Cuyahoga River catches on fire, we've got a problem. But I think the vehicle emissions thing has gone way too far. My SUV has already got a $1,200.00 platinum-impregnated catalytic converter. It's an "Ultra Low-Emissions" vehicle. What more do we need to do? Add $3,000 to $6,000 the price of a new vehicle so we can realize a less than negligable emission reduction for a compound we haven't even proved has an effect on"climate change" Gimme a break.

[tonkandy]

I don't know why anybody cares, quite frankly. Until someone conclusively proves that CO2 is actually heating up our globe, what's the difference?. I've got nothing against being environmentally conscious. When the Cuyahoga River catches on fire, we've got a problem. But I think the vehicle emissions thing has gone way too far. My SUV has already got a $1,200.00 platinum-impregnated catalytic converter. It's an "Ultra Low-Emissions" vehicle. What more do we need to do? Add $3,000 to $6,000 the price of a new vehicle so we can realize a less than negligable emission reduction for a compound we haven't even proved has an effect on"climate change" Gimme a break.

Catalytic converters don't reduce CO2, actually they increase CO2 emissions by oxidizing carbon monoxide. They reduce NOx, carbon monoxide and hydrocarbon emissions - thus reducing smog. Most people recognize that smog is a problem.

[kenk]

I don't know why anybody cares, quite frankly. Until someone conclusively proves that CO2 is actually heating up our globe, what's the difference?.

This really isn't a debate on global warming. For the folks with the power, the debate is over and they are very clear in their intent to regulate with more environmental regulations. The real concern is whether motorcycle emissions technology will be able to meet future environmental regulations. If technology can be adapted to meet future environmental regulations, can the manufacturers do so without eliminating the profit margin or increasing the price of each unit beyond what a consumer is willing to pay?

The current regulations have already had major effects on the motorcycles industry. The Enduro motorcycles (Street Legal - Lights & Turn Signals) are almost a thing of the past. To get around having to meet the strict EPA requirements, the bikes are manufactured as off-road motorcycles. Today, about 90% of all dirt bikes have no turn signals or lights. To get around the EPA restrictions, after market turn signals and head lights are added. The euduro style bikes that come with lights and turn signals are seriously underpowered, compared to the off-road versions. One of the biggest seller, the Kawasaki KLR will have serious difficulties meeting a .8 standard. DarrylRi is correct. I incorrectly quoted the current standards as the 2010 standard. The requirement is actually stricter.

[kenk]

Does anyone have information supporting motorcycles as a green alternative transportation?

How would you argue FOR the greeness of motorcycles?

Does anyone have research? case - studies? etc.?

For your BMW K75, your emissions are between 2-3 grams per kilometer, or 40-60 times higher than the .05 standard for an automobile. It is fair to say your K75 will continue to run well over 300,000 miles, requiring no additional resources to replace with newer versions. If you were driving a car, you would most likely would have replaced it three or more times using a considerable amount of resources.

[atlbmw]

I started 2 threads in parallel with similar questions....
the other thread was focused on the calculation of green. check it out... http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showthread.php?t=33179

[atlbmw]

thanks daryl!
I'll check out those links and I'll try to post the EPA link that I have buried in my bookmarks somewhere (i hope it's there).
Thanks for all the emissions info....

[Jfixit]

Is my bike more green than my 4wd truck? Yes, unless I am out for a pleasure cruise on my bike. The reasons I own a bike are not in line with the green thing. In fact by this time each year I'm all for global warming.