Tankless Water Heaters/thoughts

[henzilla]

Trying to cut costs everywhere,my electric bill is a major hit and as a recent buyer of an older home,thought I would throw this out to see anyones thoughts or experiences with the tankless heaters,specifically electric ones I guess. All opinions welcome.

I have an all electric home with 1- 1/2 baths and two occupants with a 40 gallon tank, other hot water user is the kitchen & the dishwasher. The house one sits in the bathroom and never had a pan installed, I bought one,just have not had a rainy day to jack with it and the shutoffs are in terrible shape,so it's needing help already...It is past its normal lifespan and would really mess up the hardwood floors if it leaks.

Also have a seperate garage/utility room with a seperate 25 gallon(new from home warranty at move in) it's for the washer and an outdoor shower.

AND...a one bedroom 1 bath cabin with it's own 30 gallon tank that gets occasional use.

So, looking at replacing the 1980 models in the cabin & the house first and have just started looking online for options. The initial cost is high,but the long term and the space gained is a plus for me. The plumbing part is within my skill-sets so it's just the hardware.

[GrafikFeat]

If you have gas... (No Jokes) Then yes... If just electric then they really aren't that great.
Google them... There is a ton of info out there.
If you go w/ Electric... Get a good electrician... They can be tricky... AND expensive.

[ROGERP]

Certainly a good idea for that cabin. If you don't USE hot water you're NOT paying for it .
For that one old one in the house, it may also be a good idea as long as you get one with the capacity you need based on your usage and the normal temp of the water entering the house.
If you replace the old one with a similar tank type be sure to get one with more insulation and then buy an add on insulation blanket/jacket to increase it's efficiency.

[Manfred]

In addition to advice above, I've heard on a home improvement radio show (while working on my bike, of course) that you have to make sure the gas supply is up to the chore, as these tankless water heaters demand a bunch of BTUs.

[WestHautianPlen]

Trying to cut costs everywhere,my electric bill is a major hit and as a recent buyer of an older home,thought I would throw this out to see anyones thoughts or experiences with the tankless heaters,specifically electric ones I guess. All opinions welcome.

I have an all electric home with 1- 1/2 baths and two occupants with a 40 gallon tank, other hot water user is the kitchen & the dishwasher. The house one sits in the bathroom and never had a pan installed, I bought one,just have not had a rainy day to jack with it and the shutoffs are in terrible shape,so it's needing help already...It is past its normal lifespan and would really mess up the hardwood floors if it leaks.

Also have a seperate garage/utility room with a seperate 25 gallon(new from home warranty at move in) it's for the washer and an outdoor shower.

AND...a one bedroom 1 bath cabin with it's own 30 gallon tank that gets occasional use.

So, looking at replacing the 1980 models in the cabin & the house first and have just started looking online for options. The initial cost is high,but the long term and the space gained is a plus for me. The plumbing part is within my skill-sets so it's just the hardware.

henzilla,

We recently co-installed a couple of Tank less heaters in a couple of one bedroom cabins being built at a local college. They required 3-40amp 240 volt two pole breakers to provide power to raise the water temp 65 degrees at the max water flow. These units cost about 1000.00 each with another 200.00 for the electrical wire and hardware. I am not sure about the life span of electric tank less units; however the gas ones do seem to hold up. I have noticed Tankless units are being specified more frequently in facilities that do not require a lot of hot water consumption. They will save space and can be mounted up high or even in a cabinet.

Along another line I like to keep the water temp in a standard water tank at about 115-120 deg. This helps reduce the electric consumption and the water is not hot enough to scald or burn. Energy efficient tank heaters are available also, thicker urethane insulation between tank and metal exterior. To help save air conditioning cost, locate tank if possible in unconditioned area of house.

Hope I helped, I you have any further questions send me a pm.

[GrafikFeat]

Certainly a good idea for that cabin. If you don't USE hot water you're NOT paying for it .

Generally cabins are shut down and HW tanks drained.

It does take a bit to recoup the expense of a tankless heater.
The big advantage is temp control. You can set one up for a range of showers at 95 degree so you have no "tempering" at the tap. Then set it up to 125+ to wash the dishes.
Hard to do that w/ a HW heater.

If you lose gas or electric you will have no hot water.
With a well insulated tank you can ride out a power outage for a day or two by taking "Navy Showers". Get in, get wet, soap up, rinse off.
With a tankless heater NO hot water 'til the power comes back.

Again, google it... Lots to consider.

[Mark II]

Tankless heaters are the norm here where space is at a premium. Back in the States, my wife would use up the hot water from our tank, so if I wanted to shower I had to wait for more water to be heated. Not here. She can be in there for days if she wants and never run out of hot water. Ours are gas, and if the temp is not set right it will get awful hot awful fast. Must keep an eye on that. In short, I recommend them because they work for us.

[Mongo]

Good info above,

You should also check to see if your electric service can handle the added amperage draw. An "On-Demand" water heater will draw a lot of power when it's on. Quite a bit more than that tank heater you have now. If you have to upgrade your service, that can be a budget buster.

[moshaffer]

I know you are talking electric but I'll put my two cents in anyway. I have propane tankless in my cabin in Maggie Valley and this was one of the smarter decisions I made with the new place. You save a ton of money and it handles two baths and kitchen laundry with no problem. I had a standard electric in the other cabin I had and it was expensive paying that electric bill and especially knowing you are heating water even when you aren't using it. There ae some serious building codes for tankless water heaters though, electric and gas. :)

[shire2000]

I have also been thinking of going with the tankless water heater. As I don't have natural gas available I would prefer to go with a couple of electric ones. I presently have a 40 Gallon and a 60 Gallon tank side by side in a storage/utility room. The electrical service is in the same room, so running any extra wiring would be simple. What I am wondering is how much more power do they need beyond what the present tanks use? Could the present 2 separate 240V lines to the 2 tanks be used? Or will they require more than that?

[Nocanpickem]

I called the local power company to research the question some years ago. Since they provide electricity and gas I valued their opinion.

The consummer guy indicated that tankless water heaters don't save much if any power and there are longitivity issues. He reasoned that a modern gas water heater uses little energy to keep the tank of water warm. Very little heat escapes from the unit and the heat that does heats the house.

Karl

[GrafikFeat]

http://www.tanklesswaterheaters.com/tanwatheat.html

Click on "Educate" when you get there.

[henzilla]

Thanks for all the info thus far...good stuff to consider...just decided we need to do something and this option sounds good .

I don't currently have LP gas,though Helen would prefer that option for a stove also. Electric would be the "easiest" conversion due to venting issues in the house location,there is a finished room& 1/2 bath in the attic above. Gas would be great, most likely have to stick to Kilowatts

Recently rebuilt my electric service( Tom Hanks Moneypit old house story here!) and have mucho capacity, the sub-panel is close enough to the house unit to up the circuits to that spot relatively easy.

I am on a well now, and do not have storage capacity for it yet...no lights,no water so I know that story...luckily we do not have sustsained outages....usually!Have a Cowboy Tub ( galvanized stock tank) for emergency needs.

I put a timer on the utility room heater, so at least it is off more than half the time. The cabin I prob could turn off for now,it's my guest quarters or my quiet hideout when I am not in the shop . The house unit sits in the bath closet,so I already have a warm room I am dealing with in summer...part of the issue.

[gfspencer]

Our water heater died so I bought a tankless water heater. If you already have gas a tankless water heater has several advantages - (1) it saves space (2) you don't heat the water until you need it and (3) you never run out of hot water.

And you also get an "energy credit" at tax time. :brow

[john1691]

Any LP supplier will be happy to provide a tank, and for a fee, run the gas line. The newer gas units are vented with PVC pipe, so very easy to do yourself. As for the electric models, as electric demend rises, so will the use of "Demand"meters by utilities, which punish you for surges in electrical consumption. Because of this, I wouldn't use an electric water heater. The natural or PL gas units work very well, are reliable and safe. I have installed a number of them for customers and have never had a complaint.

[klwbmw]

My brother in law reps plumbing and heating lines. When I asked him about going tankless in my home he recommended against it. They do perform well in new construction however they can have issues with retro fits. OTOH, have you considered solar?

[DarrylRi]

My brother in law reps plumbing and heating lines. When I asked him about going tankless in my home he recommended against it. They do perform well in new construction however they can have issues with retro fits. OTOH, have you considered solar?

I've been watching this thread because we did just put in solar. The solar panels heat propylene glycol which runs in a closed loop through a heat exchanger in an 80 gallon tank, which is otherwise unheated. We have an old 40 gallon propane water heater that is now fed from the solar holding tank. When that heater dies, I think I want to replace it with a tankless unit.

One problem I have is that I have a very long run from my propane tank. I've been told I might need to replace it with bigger pipe because of the BTU demand for the tankless unit. My current run is 1" pipe. But I've also been told that I may not need anything, or I may be able to up the gas pressure a bit to make it work. I have yet to find someone I believe can actually give me a reliable answer on this.

PS: When the sun comes out for a day or so, then the entire 80 gallons will heat up to 140F (its set point). There's a tempering valve between the holding tank and the old water heater to bring it down to 120F.

[henzilla]

looked at solar a little...get the sun, have a lot of shaded hours on the roof of the house though. One of the benefits I was looking for was getting rid of the tank in the bath closet, so I would not meet all my goals.
Still reading up on the options, have hard water due to the limestone in area and will need water softener ahead of any new plumbing add ons...talked to a fellow this morning that installed several point of use tankless units in a new construction project. Within a year the calcium buildup in the units ruined them...no water softener here either. The water softener has been on the list also since we got here last Spring.

On the demand meter issue...having worked in that field for awhile, the utility typically used them on small three-phase customers who rarely used the load, and on almost all large three phase customers over a certain amperage...typically 225amp and up...Most single phase loads were not hit,unless it was a multi family apartment unit with a single meter...not saying it will never happen. I am served by one of the largest Co-Op utilities around here...and lot's of ranchers would huff & puff over that.

[Montana]

I helped with a cabin installation and we put a small holding tank under the counter of the bathroom sink. I don't know if they fixed this issue: the tankless systems don't get the water hot unless you are running the tap fully opened. We let the tank draw from the heater and the faucet drew from the tank.

[Burnszilla]

I installed a tankless water heater 3 years ago. Our electric bill dropped by $100 per month. It just takes longer to get hot water to the tap. I bought a Paloma here: http://www.tanklesswaterheaters.com/ Call the guy, he's very helpful.

[petepeterson]

Hot water on demand is as good as it gets... The japs have had those systems for over 40 years.. The hookers had them for their hotsie tubs,, not a was of 1 drop of hot water. It turns on ONLY when you need the hot water,,then instant off.............Pete

[Mark II]

I don't know if they fixed this issue: the tankless systems don't get the water hot unless you are running the tap fully opened.

Perhaps that was just the one you worked on. The ones here are adjustable for the amount of water flow necessary to activate the heater, and can be adjusted all the way down to a trickle if you want.

[username]

henzilla - i think you are in my head.

i am looking at installing one of these as well. the big issue i see is scale from the hard water we have here in central texas. i havent really done my homework, so i will piggyback on yours. :D the big question i havent gotten past is, "do i need a water softener too?"

anyone else have a tankless heater with hard water and it's been in use for over five years?

[osbornk]

If you have hard water, you need a water softener whether you get a tankless water heater or not. Before I started using mine (it was in my house when I bought it but not in use), the lower water heater element went bad once or twice a year, there was a buildup at my faucets, my clear glass items got cloudy, the toilets stained and the water tasted. I have none of these problems with my water softener and my water tastes great. The salt cost me about $5.00 per month and there is not maintenance to speak of. The most trouble free are the timer based ones and the best prices I have found are at http://www.apswater.com/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=23&cat=Timer+Based+Water+Softeners. They are very simple to install. You simply splice it into the water line, run a drain line and plug it in.

[henzilla]

henzilla - i think you are in my head.

i am looking at installing one of these as well. the big issue i see is scale from the hard water we have here in central texas. i havent really done my homework, so i will piggyback on yours. :D the big question i havent gotten past is, "do i need a water softener too?"

anyone else have a tankless heater with hard water and it's been in use for over five years?

Helen called a local water softener guy today who lives in Drippin' Springs...he said water de-scaler YES, softener not unless it is really hard...he said the de-scaler takes care of the deposits we get....still researching and listening.

[The_Veg]

My brother in law reps plumbing and heating lines. When I asked him about going tankless in my home he recommended against it. They do perform well in new construction however they can have issues with retro fits. OTOH, have you considered solar?

Yep. My dad installed one several years ago in a house built in 1930. He put it in the basement, right next to the old tank heater (which BTW still needs to be hauled out...). This location is basically right under the kitchen, so the hot water reaches the sink and dishwasher fairly quickly but it takes a few minutes to reach the baths and laundry (although the laundry is not an issue because nobody in his house uses hot water for laundry). This delay is bad because the Atlanta area has had a pretty tight water-supply for several years. Dad has contemplated changing the setup to be better, but probably won't do it for several reasons, all of which I think are valid (the house and Dad are both in their twilight years, for example).

They work much better when you can group the consumption-points close together and place the heater(s) near those groupings. This obviously means that new construction can be an ideal application, but sometimes older structures can work too. One example of a good candidate older structure was the duplex in which I lived in TexSux from May-December last year. It had a tank heater in a hallway closet, and that was right next to the one bath and the kitchen. The laundry was in the kitchen too, so no hot water consumption-point was more than ten feet from the heater (in fact only the kitchen sink was more than six feet away from it). If the landlords ever put a tankless in that house, almost a whole extra closet will be gained since the tank heater takes up the whole closet.

[PAGoldsby]

I have a gas tankless water heater in my house, and I don't ever want to live somewhere with a conventional tank-type water heater again. It's fantastic. Get the most BTU you can afford, and try to locate the thing as centrally as possible.

Love the Reddy Kilowatt avatar. My Dad worked for KCPL, and we had all sorts of Reddy Kilowatt schwag growing up. Brings back nice memories.

[username]

i guess there is nothing stopping us from having more than one? maybe one out in the kitchen area, and one back by the bathroom.

this reminds me of the conversation i have every so often where i wonder why i only have one washer and dryer. i always hated going to the laundromat, but i loved being able to do four loads of wash in parallel.