1991 K75 brake handle

[dorongrudo]

When applyiong pressure to the brake handle (lever), it comes down too far. Too close to the handlebar.
I am riding with two fingers always on the brake lever. When I squeese it, the lever pressed agains the fingers still wraped around the handlebar.
Is there a way to "raise" the handle?

Doron

[Gilly]

I am not sure, but any riding class worth it's salt will warn you against 2 finger braking....
Gilly

[roncooper]

I would check for air in the system. There is no adj. on the lever.

[PGlaves]

If it is correct that won't happen on the K75S - so something isn't right. Air in the system will cause it. A mushy piston cup in the master cylinder will cause it. It deforms and allows a little extra piston travel. And, softening, mushy, rubber brake lines will cause it.

I would start by thoroughly flushing and changing the fluid to make sure there is no air in the system. If original or anything like original I would replace the brake hoses with braided stainless lines. If I still didn't like it I'd rebuild or replace the master cylinder.

[lostboy]

Check your brake lever for an "E" cast in to it's bottom side, near the pivot. If it does not have the "E", you have the "American" lever, which BMW supplied for a while. ('88-'91?) This lever has a slightly different cam, which gave exactly the symptom you describe.

[dorongrudo]

Thank you all for your help.

I don't know why two fingers on the lever is wrong. It reduces reaction time. I am so used to it that any other way feel unnatural. My other bike is a 05 R1200RT and riding it I keep just one finger on the lever.
I do have braided steel lines. Next is a through flush of the system and then, if necessary, another master cylinder.
And... I will look for that "E". Very interesting.

These K75's are sooooo much fun.

Doron

[bikerfish1100]

2 finger braking is not recommended for street riding for 2 or 3 reasons.
1)- the gain in reax time is minimal- fractions of a second. if you really need that fraction of a second, you're riding too aggressively for the street, and/or your scanning skills are not sharp enough.
2)- you give up braking power (and on the K75, more power is better), especially if you don't bother going to 4 finger application (which is apparently your case). you can not attain max braking on a K75 with jsut 2 fingers.
3)- if you only use 2 instead of 4 when needed, you can mash your fingers with the lever (issue you're having right now).
4)- by moving fingers to brake lever, you're giving up some degree of throttle control. generally, we do a lot more with throttle for speed adjustment than we do with brake application.
5)- if you stay with 2 fingers instead of 4, even on the R12, you are giving up some degree of brake control. relying upon the ABS to modulate things is not in your overall best interests as a rider. work to develop YOUR riding skills to the max, rather than depending upon technology to do it all for you.

if you were in a racing situation, the advice would likely be different. but the street is not the track- no, not even the bestest roads. time to relearn your braking habits, or not, your choice. but you asked, so there are your reasons why.

good luck on the bleed/repair.

[98lee]

The other side of the coin:

I don't believe donrongrudo means that he ONLY brakes with two fingers. I'm sure when the situation calls for HEAVY braking, he uses 4 fingers.



To paraphrase bikerfish1100:

4)- by moving 4 fingers to brake lever, you're giving up some degree of throttle control. generally, we do a lot more with throttle for speed adjustment than we do with brake application.

2)- you give up braking power, 1) if you really need that , you could be riding too aggressively for the street, and/or your scanning skills are not sharp enough.




The time (and distance) saved by having the brake "covered" is NOT insignificant. Can be crucial when negotiating
residential streets, city streets, crowded parking lots or rallies, or the twisties where sightlines are shorter.

You can always transfer more fingers to the task of braking as the situation requires.

The control and time gained by having control of both the throttle and the front brake leads to much smoother corner entry. It also can help with mid-corner adjustments.

The ON-OFF nature of moving all 4 fingers from controlling the throttle to releasing the throttle, then moving them to the brake and the applying the brake and then releasing the brake and moving them back to the throttle before being able to apply the throttle, can result in a less smooth transition.

If you don't know how to heal-and-toe a sports car, you don't know how to drive a sports car. Finesse with the feet works better than stomping one pedal or another.

Just another opinion. It works for me. YRMV Do what works for you.


:dance :dance :dance

[dorongrudo]

In a normal street riding, I find that I need to make frequent small speed adjustments. I live in Houston (moving to Tulsa soon) and street riding is "fun". Moving four fingers to the lever and than back to the throttle is cumbersome, uncomfortable and leaves me with reduced throttle control. Cornering, especially in traffic, often require both brake and throttle adjustments.

For the small brake application in normal riding conditions, when only a small reduction in speed is required, two fingers are strong enough. So... I got used to riding with thumb and two fingers on the throttle and two fingers on the brake.

As 98Lee figured out, I DO use all fingers for real stopping power. Of course I do. However, On highway rides I find myself keeping two fingers always on the brake. It became a habit. Even when I have to manipulate the throttle (more agressive riding) I do it with two fingers on the brake.

On the R1200RT I am not relying on the ABS but rather on the much more powerfull braking system (servo). On this bike two fingers will easily give me all the braking power I need (up to activating the ABS - very rare).

Now, in my defense, and I would love to read comments to the following remark:

"In most situation I need both brake AND throttle manipulation. Having two fingers on each is my solution"

Again. Thank you all for writing.

I WILL RATHER BE CORRECTED THAN RIGHT.

Doron

[35634]

Hi Doron... Something that may help. Had trouble bleeding all the air out of my
87 K75s front brake recently (had to break the line at the master) Not bad, but
just not rock solid. Rode somewhere and had to park the bike facing uphill, on the
centerstand. Steep enough that it was hard to rock the bike off. The brake firmed
up beautifully all by itself! I tried it on a friends K and the same thing happened.
May be just a fluke but worth a try. (you do have hills in Texas, don't you?)

(PS-thanks for the shock last year-it worked out great and I gave it to another
needy K biker)

[Gilly]

"In most situation I need both brake AND throttle manipulation. Having two fingers on each is my solution"


Well, in my opinion it's a lousy solution.

What's gonna happen someday is your going to grab just enough brake with those 2 fingers to pinch the other 2 between the brake and the throttle. You won't have any squeeze left to get more brake, plus the throttle will now be stuck where ever it gets pinched by your fingers and the brake lever.
You're way better off getting in the habit of doing it right. We're creatures of habit, you can say now "OH, I'll just use these 2 fingers here, and when I need more brake I'll just add a finger or two". Someday you'll need all 4 right NOW but you'll be used to 2, and 2 is what you'll use.

I've found myself that if I need brake, I don't need the throttle. You can slow down just by backing off, for a curve as an example, just backing off is enough. If it's a sharp curve and you need to slow more, you brake BEFORE the curve and accelerate through (basic MSF schtuff), you wouldn't be on the throttle in a case like that, why accelerate AND brake at the same time?

But hey whatever works for YOU:hug



Gilly

[dorongrudo]

to 35634. I am glad to hear that the shock was useful and still is. As for the rest of your post, I guess I will have to wait till I move to Tulsa for a decent hill. As a matter of fact, my house in Tulsa is on top of a great hill. I am going to try it :)

to Gilly. Of course mine is a lousy solution. Thats why my post is here, asking for opinions and help. I did not write to promote my system. I wrote admitting that I have a problem, asking for ideas.

Being "right" leaves me where I was. Being "corrected" makes me better.

Thnks to all and enjoy you bikes. Be safe.

Doron

[Gilly]

And I gave you both my opinion (lousy idea, that's my opinion, subtle nuance is not my strong suit), and an idea (use 4 finger braking not 2).

Gilly

[lostboy]

A little known secret for final brake bleedng is to park the bike on the sidestand and turn the 'bars to full lock left. Do this with the rsesevoir cover on. You can then walk away and let gravity do the work, or give the lever a few slow pulls.

Regarding two-finger braking: I know that the MSF "frowns" upon it. MSF courses are useful, but they are not gospel. Like most schools, should be looked at as a place to learn, not a place to stop learning.

[bikerfish1100]

In a normal street riding, I find that I need to make frequent small speed adjustments. I live in Houston (moving to Tulsa soon) and street riding is "fun". Moving four fingers to the lever and than back to the throttle is cumbersome, uncomfortable and leaves me with reduced throttle control. Cornering, especially in traffic, often require both brake and throttle adjustments.

For the small brake application in normal riding conditions, when only a small reduction in speed is required, two fingers are strong enough. So... I got used to riding with thumb and two fingers on the throttle and two fingers on the brake.

and i think of those conditions- only a slight slowing required- as ideal for engine braking.

As 98Lee figured out, I DO use all fingers for real stopping power. Of course I do. However, On highway rides I find myself keeping two fingers always on the brake. It became a habit. Even when I have to manipulate the throttle (more agressive riding) I do it with two fingers on the brake.

are your hiway rides done in high density traffic? if not, again, i'd see no reason for even thinking of brake usage, other than to alert any following traffic to my change in speed.

On the R1200RT I am not relying on the ABS but rather on the much more powerfull braking system (servo). On this bike two fingers will easily give me all the braking power I need (up to activating the ABS - very rare).

Now, in my defense, and I would love to read comments to the following remark:

"In most situation I need both brake AND throttle manipulation. Having two fingers on each is my solution"

Again. Thank you all for writing.

I WILL RATHER BE CORRECTED THAN RIGHT.

Doron

regarding needing brake and throttle at the same time in most situations... are you going or are you slowing? seriously, i just don't see the need. unless you are doing a whole ton of trail braking for cornering, slowing and going are pretty much antithetical actions. it is incredibly rare that i ever find the need for both applications together.
yes, i recognize the need for quick braking responses in high density conditions- "downtown" riding, slow & go on interstate, some residential conditions, etc. but from the sounds of it, you are always covering the brake- something that is really not necessary or overly valuable.
you had originally stated that "you don't see why 2 finger on the lever is wrong (after commenting that you've been squeezing your other 2 with the brake lever). gilly & i have presented reasons why covering the brake is not such a great idea. you are certainly free to agree or not through your choices of action- but all the reasons for not covering the brake remain valid.

ever read Nick Ienatsch's "the Pace"? ever ride "the Pace"? http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/flashback/122_0911_the_pace_nick_ienatsch/index.html
Let me call your attention to paragraph's 3 & 4, where Nick lays out his thoughts on braking, which underlie much of this riding treatise.

good luck with the brake fix.

[98lee]

Nowhere in that article does it say NOT to cover the front brake.

But if you look at the bottom of the article and click on the link "50 ways to save your life", #19 says "cover the front brake-ALWAYS"

If you click on the other link at the bottom of "The Pace": "More Riding Tips and Advice" and go to "Street Savvy" just above "Chain Lube 101", they also recommend covering the front brake.

Also in "15 Riding in Traffic Tips" under the link "More Riding Tips and Advice" they encourage covering the front brake.

Bikerfish, I encourage you to ride in the manner that you are comfortable, but to suggest to someone else to refrain from a technique that will take 80' off the stopping distance from 60mph seems odd.


:dance :dance :dance

[98lee]

A little known secret for final brake bleedng is to park the bike on the sidestand and turn the 'bars to full lock left. Do this with the rsesevoir cover on. You can then walk away and let gravity do the work, or give the lever a few slow pulls.
:thumb :thumb
Regarding two-finger braking: I know that the MSF "frowns" upon it. MSF courses are useful, but they are not gospel. Like most schools, should be looked at as a place to learn, not a place to stop learning.
:thumb :thumb On both counts!


:dance :dance :dance

[Gilly]

Ah, and beside that, if you have heated grips you'll be wasting 20% of your heat! Will those 2 frozen fingers work when it's time?:dunno (just kidding a little here)
In practice, I just find myself feeling more in control when I have either a hand full of throttle or 4 fingers on the brake lever. I think I can do a better job of stopping with all 4 fingers, enough difference to more than make up for the reaction time lost by not having 2 fingers on the brake lever at all times. Plus that gets old fast when you pile on lots of miles in a day. Bottom line to me is that if something suddenly happens you are likely to forget, in the rush of things, to get all 4 fingers out there. If you already start braking with the 2 fingers it might also be tight clearance to get the other 2 out (from between the lever and throttle) and on the lever.

Gilly

[bikerfish1100]

points well made, Lee. I don't think i ever said "don't ever cover", rather i presented the arguments as to why not to cover. i'm not yet convinced that "always" is the best idea for all circumstances, but i can certainly see the value (as previously stated) for certain conditions.
for the time being- we can agree to disagree. (but i do like the idea of stopping 88' shorter...)

[dorongrudo]

Again, thank you all for sharing.

If one is judged by the company he keeps, then belonging to this form must elevate my status.

Ride and be safe.

Doron

[PGlaves]

Back to the original problem - and it isn't a two versus four finger problem. Because with air in the system the brakes are mushy and two, three, or four fingers doesn't give you the brake effectiveness the bike could give you.

On the K75 (and many other bikes too) sometimes you need to bleed the calipers very carefully. This means:

1. Pistons fully retracted into the bores.
2. Bleed valves sticking straight up vertical.

This means take the calipers loose and spread the pads. Then block the pads apart - I use tapered wood shingle stock. Then bleed the brakes.

[Gilly]

Pauls comments, spot on as usual. All the fingers in the world won't help when your hydraulic brakes are now "air brakes". You need an endorsement on your license for those y'know. :whistle

Gilly