ABS vs non ABS

[papaed]

I've heard many pros and cons.This is what happened yesterday.Riding in a group of assorted bikes .Approached a construction site with a flagman.A Suziki V Strom 1000 in front of me came up too fast on the bike in front of him and locked up the front brake into a front wheel skid,the bike went CRAZY,the handlebars went right then left then back again and the rider was pitched off the high side. The road was straight,dry asphalt. Close behind him on my k1200lt,with linked ABS I had no problem stopping.The Suziki has standard brakes,the rider has multiple contusions and a severely separated shoulder.Probably a couple thousand in bike damage.I saw it unfold from start to end and here is my vote to make ABS mandatory for all bikes,the auto industry did it years ago.

[lenrt1200st]

I've heard many pros and cons.This is what happened yesterday.Riding in a group of assorted bikes .Approached a construction site with a flagman.A Suziki V Strom 1000 in front of me came up too fast on the bike in front of him and locked up the front brake into a front wheel skid,the bike went CRAZY,the handlebars went right then left then back again and the rider was pitched off the high side. The road was straight,dry asphalt. Close behind him on my k1200lt,with linked ABS I had no problem stopping.The Suziki has standard brakes,the rider has multiple contusions and a severely separated shoulder.Probably a couple thousand in bike damage.I saw it unfold from start to end and here is my vote to make ABS mandatory for all bikes,the auto industry did it years ago.

:thumb

Agreed, but I'm not sure I like linked braking systems. And the jury is still out on power assisted brakes, but the pre-verdict polling suggests a favorable decision for an unassisted braking system.

I like my brakes powerful and anti-lock, w/out the added complexity of linked or power assistance.

Len
2006 R1200ST

[R80RTJohnny]

BMW has spent a great deal of time, effort and money to create it's newest generation of ABS brakes. I'm happy to have them on my 08 RT.

I hope that your riding friend heals quickly.

[nhbmw]

:thumb

Agreed, but I'm not sure I like linked braking systems. And the jury is still out on power assisted brakes, but the pre-verdict polling suggests a favorable decision for an unassisted braking system.

I like my brakes powerful and anti-lock, w/out the added complexity of linked or power assistance.

Len
2006 R1200ST

+1 on power assistance. My '04 R1150RS has the whizzy linked ABS, and I REALLY dislike how sensitive the brakes are (especially the front) with power assist. If the RS were this sensitive (and didn't have ABS), I'd consider it unsafe. It would be far too easy to lock the front brake.

My new V-Strom ABS has no power boost, no linking and requires a reasonable amount of force. The Bonnie has no ABS, but has good "feel" and feedback.

Of the three bikes, I like the RS's brakes the least.

Art

[Vagabird]

I definitely like ABS. I think all bikes should have it. But government madate? I'll have to think about that :scratch .

[john1691]

My K12RS has ABS, the K12S does not. I haven't noticed a huge differance in them, as they both stop the bike very quickly. I haven't had a panic stop in quite a while, so I guess if I could only pick one or the other, it would be the ABS.

Sorry to hear about your friend, I hope his shoulder heals quickly.

[charleshickman]

Less than a year ago I was traveling on an Alabama state highway at near the legal speed limit. A pickup coming the other way started to turn into my path, did a 'he saw me wiggle' and then apparently decided to kill me. He turned directly in front of me.

I applied a death grip on the servo assisted abs brakes on my '06 and missed hitting him broadside. I believe I would have gone down and into him but for the abs.

It's worth the money to me.

[roy]

Remember, ABS only works in a straight line. Leaned over in a curve it is less effective and may actually cause a "High Side" crash since you can't lock the rear wheel and low side.

Linked or integrated servo assisted brakes in my opinion should be banned from production. I find them more dangerous than conventional brakes. On my LT they are grabby with very little feedback. Granted 02 was the first year for them and they may have improved since then.

Roy

[cayuse60]

I've heard many pros and cons.This is what happened yesterday.Riding in a group of assorted bikes .Approached a construction site with a flagman.A Suziki V Strom 1000 in front of me came up too fast on the bike in front of him and locked up the front brake into a front wheel skid,the bike went CRAZY,the handlebars went right then left then back again and the rider was pitched off the high side. The road was straight,dry asphalt. Close behind him on my k1200lt,with linked ABS I had no problem stopping.The Suziki has standard brakes,the rider has multiple contusions and a severely separated shoulder.Probably a couple thousand in bike damage.I saw it unfold from start to end and here is my vote to make ABS mandatory for all bikes,the auto industry did it years ago.

We all live under enough "government required".
That said I agree that ABS on a motorcycle can be a saver, but a decision you as the rider should make.
I drive a 1997 BMW car with ASC (automatic stabilization control), and only use it when conditions warrant (it has an on/off switch).
I would like to see ABS with the option to turn it off when off road where the use of rear braking only is necessary at times.
I realize K1200 do not go off road much.

[billpierce]

Remember, ABS only works in a straight line. Leaned over in a curve it is less effective and may actually cause a "High Side" crash since you can't lock the rear wheel and low side.Roy

I can tell you from first hand experience that ABS does work when leaned over. Not the best or smartest thing to do..:blush .. but it did save my butt in just this situation.

[john1691]

I realize K1200 do not go off road much.

You'd be suprised!! :laugh :laugh

[JanMiller]

I don't mind ABS, but I HATE the totally linked brakes on my 04 RT. When I first got the bike, they put me down, at least I blame them. I was used to tapping the rear brake when coming up on steering lock in a tight turn. 'Normal' bike, slows it a bit, bars come off the lock, life is good. RT, both brakes hit HARD (sometimes seems harder than normal), and threw me out of balance, could not recover. Bam! BUT... I'd say the probably saved my butt once.... Just don't like the totally-linked 'feature'

[Bob1100RTC]

I won't own a bike without abs. I too have been in a situation where the rider in front of me had to panic stop and locked up the rear wheel. Luckily, he managed to save it but almost hit the truck that pulled out in front of him. I was behind and jumped on the brakes, bled speed and was back off the brakes before he stopped. I'm a believer. Now as for the government mandateing it, I don't think so. Too many mandates already.

[The_Veg]

I ride a 2007 R1200GS. It has about the most perfect brakes I've ever experienced. No whizzy stuff, ABS (which can be switched off), and it's only semi-linked- the pedal activates only the rear brake. I love it!

[KGT1200]

2005R1200 GS, Love my whizzy brakes, and have had to use em during several exciting moments!

When in dirt? shut the ABS off; what could be simpler?

I have adapted to grabbing a handful of front/rear brakes, but wore out my rear brake$ before getting this together!

What they bitch and moan about wizzies? Aint true! I love em! They know NOT what they say!

[deilenberger]

Since this isn't really a "ride report" - I'm moving it over to the campfire where it might be better placed.

BTW - I won't buy a bike without ABS, and since I've had the linked brakes on my R1200R, I love'm. Wasn't that crazy about whizzy brakes on my '04 R1150RS.. but the latest iteration of them are simply wonderful. Love'm.

[osbornk]

I saw it unfold from start to end and here is my vote to make ABS mandatory for all bikes,the auto industry did it years ago.

The auto industry still has not done it. I remember several years ago that GM made a big deal that every car they made had ABS as standard equipment. I bought a 2008 slightly used Chevrolet Impala LT last week sight unseen. When it was delivered, I found it does not have ABS. It is optional. ABS is still optional on many cars. I'm not big on government intervention and I vote to letting the people decide.

[Easy]

ABS, off-road not the best idea, on-road a good idea unless you are racing at Daytona in which case you're still off-road.

I'm convinced ABS saved me from a hospital trip. In '98 I was coming back from Pennsylvania on a R1100R. I was on the interstate near Memphis when the roadway suddenly got wet from a previous shower. For an unknown reason the cars in front of me came to a sudden stop. When I hit the break I felt the ABS kick in along with what seemed like a gallon of adrenalin. I was able to stop in time, but it was close.

I'm a big believer in ABS.

Easy :lurk

[PGlaves]

What they bitch and moan about wizzies? Aint true! I love em! They know NOT what they say!

Sorta the same thing as, "We don't like:

- square tail lights
- tubeless tires
- pointless ignition
- fuel injection
- radial tires
- CANBUS

and on and on.

The unfamiliar confounds the uninformed.

[rbertalotto]

No question! I won't tour on a bike without ABS...........I don't even like taking quick rides around town without ABS. But after a six or seven hour day, when you probably shouldn't be riding anyways, this is when ABS might save your a-- if your responses are a bit slow.

And ABS does work in a corner. I've had both my Honda VFR and my V-Strom get me out of a tight panic situation in a blind corner that I'm positive I would have gone down without it. Instead of the front wheel skidding out from under me, I felt ABS kick in and I was able to lean the bike over more and clear the obstacle.

I hate the servo brakes onb my 04 Rockster.......Terrible feel and way too sensitive. I don't know how you could ride this bike without ABS unless it was your only bike and you were 110% used to it. But moving among different bikes, when ever I get on the Rockster, I'm compressing big Jim and the twins for the first few miles....:)

[kantuckid]

Re: Big Jim & the twins-I wish I had a "Big Jim"!

[rbertalotto]

My wife tells me the word "big" is relative................:dance

[shire2000]

My car and my wife's mini-van both have ABS. I have never had to actually use it. In fact, I really don't know if it works on those vehicles. Never been in a situation where I would need to hammer on the brakes. Maybe it is just my driving and riding style to look well ahead, expect the unexpected and drive appropriately for the road and weather conditions. I really don't know. I use all the gears on both vehicles, downshift when slowing down, let the engine slow me down instead of the brakes all the time. Maybe that is why I get close to 100,000 miles on a set of brakes. Maybe that is why I get high mileage. I really don't know and don't really care.

As I really have no experience with ABS brakes, and have not had an accident on the road in over 35 years of driving, I don't think that I really need them. Maybe they will come in useful one day, but I don't expect to need them. I learned how to use all parts of the vehicle a long time ago. How to feather brakes. How to heal and toe, when necessary. How to shift at appropriate times to achieve maximum performance with minimum effort and abuse of the vehicle.

I think that my point is, everyone should learn how to drive properly and efficiently, with whatever vehicle they use. Do not rely on any mechanical or electrical device to save you from yourself. Learn how to avoid obstacles. Learn that if you have to hit the brakes hard in a corner, then you entered it way to fast. Once you are a proficient driver/rider, you will enjoy the journey a whole lot more.

I believe that a lot of the doodads, such as ABS and traction control are nice to haves if you are pushing your vehicle to the extreme. After all, those types of items came from the race track. But to rely on them when on the road? I don't think so. Rely on your own capabilities first. Be responsible for your own actions and driving habits. Don't expect some electrical/mechanical addon to your vehicle to save you when you make a mistake in judgment.

And none of my motorcycles have ABS, and I will never purchase a bike because it has it. I setup my brakes the way I want them and when the time comes where I cannot modulate the brakes effectively, I will stop riding.

I will climb down off the soap box now and let someone else rant. :gerg

:ca

[rbertalotto]

OH BOY!

Nuff said..................

[osbornk]

I think that my point is, everyone should learn how to drive properly and efficiently, with whatever vehicle they use. Do not rely on any mechanical or electrical device to save you from yourself. Learn how to avoid obstacles. Learn that if you have to hit the brakes hard in a corner, then you entered it way to fast. Once you are a proficient driver/rider, you will enjoy the journey a whole lot more.


And none of my motorcycles have ABS, and I will never purchase a bike because it has it. I setup my brakes the way I want them and when the time comes where I cannot modulate the brakes effectively, I will stop riding.

I will climb down off the soap box now and let someone else rant. :gerg

:ca

Three of my five vehicles have ABS (truck, car, SUV airhead and oilhead). ABS is nice but not mandatory. I like my linked servo brakes because we have a lot of deer where I live and I'm convinced that I can't think and react as fast as a computer.

[hobbywhore]

I've got an '04 R1150R with the "whizzy" semi-linked ABS brakes. Knock on wood, I haven't had to use them yet. However, when I first got the bike, I had read how sensitive the brakes were and how they tended to grab all at once, making modulating the brakes very hard. I found the same to be br true of my bike and I figured it was something I was just going to have to get used to. But when it came time for the dreaded ABS maintenance, I decided to DIY since the closest dealer was too far away and too expensive. I sucessfully bled all the circuits and after I did I discovered some amazing things. The first was how much better the brakes performed without the engine on. The next was how much more "feel" the brakes had. They were much more progressive than before and easier to modulate. The difference was like night and day. I've read a lot of negative opinions in this thread and I wonder if it isn't just a matter of maintenance on the older ABS systems.

[KGT1200]

I've got an '04 R1150R with the "whizzy" semi-linked ABS brakes. Knock on wood, I haven't had to use them yet. However, when I first got the bike, I had read how sensitive the brakes were and how they tended to grab all at once, making modulating the brakes very hard. I found the same to be br true of my bike and I figured it was something I was just going to have to get used to. But when it came time for the dreaded ABS maintenance, I decided to DIY since the closest dealer was too far away and too expensive. I sucessfully bled all the circuits and after I did I discovered some amazing things. The first was how much better the brakes performed without the engine on. The next was how much more "feel" the brakes had. They were much more progressive than before and easier to modulate. The difference was like night and day. I've read a lot of negative opinions in this thread and I wonder if it isn't just a matter of maintenance on the older ABS systems.

As a side note, my 05 GS with whizzy brakes have never grabbed, have never been "touchy" or caused be any issues in the slightest. I had the recall maintenance done after the first year, and have experienced this bike in more than one challanging situation where the ABS kicked in. Never been dropped and never failed to work up to expectations. They work on the straight, and work on a curve, WTH I do not understand some of the bad mouthing these brakes get from people.
Other than the "whiz" they perform perfectly in every circumstance.

[rbertalotto]

Don't get me wrong...........Most don't think there is anything "wrong" with the servo brakes. But if you are old enough to remember cars that did not have "power" brakes, if you had a car with "manual" brakes and then borrowed one with power brakes, you would nearly put your passengers through the windshield the first few times you used them...............This is the same situation if you have more than one motorcycle, and one has servo brakes...........

The second "complaint" is the total lack of feel on servo equipped BMW motorcycles. And if someone challenges that a BMW with servo brakes has "feel".......Well there is just no sense in arguing. They don't. Ride a well regarded sport bike with excellent radial, multi-pot, steel braided line, composite pad brakes and you will know what "feel" is all about.

But for everyday riding, and touring......the BMW brakes are just fine. And Lord knows BMW brakes since the early 80s will stop you on a dime with 9 cents back!

[KGT1200]

Don't get me wrong...........Most don't think there is anything "wrong" with the servo brakes. But if you are old enough to remember cars that did not have "power" brakes, if you had a car with "manual" brakes and then borrowed one with power brakes, you would nearly put your passengers through the windshield the first few times you used them...............This is the same situation if you have more than one motorcycle, and one has servo brakes...........

The second "complaint" is the total lack of feel on servo equipped BMW motorcycles. And if someone challenges that a BMW with servo brakes has "feel".......Well there is just no sense in arguing. They don't. Ride a well regarded sport bike with excellent radial, multi-pot, steel braided line, composite pad brakes and you will know what "feel" is all about.

But for everyday riding, and touring......the BMW brakes are just fine. And Lord knows BMW brakes since the early 80s will stop you on a dime with 9 cents back!

Could be right, could be right, I only can compare them to 3 other bikescurrently owned , all dirt bikes, and 50 years of riding street and motocross..whatta I know about feel? I went from riding for years on an 84 R65 to the 05 GS and noticed no difference that would cause me any problem what so ever in the braking and feel. The brakes work flawlessy for going on 50K now; then again, I'm no expert like you guys.

Of course I'm not out to the races when I ride, I just ride for commute and ride to tour, and on dirt, out to spin it up a bit so I guess my sense of feel is far below your expectations of the definition of "feel".

Each to their own, I guess.

[Rpbump]

I've only had to really stop "right now" once with my CLC, and was both suprised and happy with how quickly the bike stopped. True, there is no "feel" with servo assisted brakes but I have come to love the braking power available to me. If I get the chance to ride a new BMW with the improved ABS a new bike may be in my future. Ride Safe :)

[rbertalotto]

I would expect those dirt bikes might have brakes very much like a set of servo brakes. Lots of braking power with relatively little weight and inertia. Most dirt bikes I've ridden had this characteristic.

Sport bikes need a completely different "feel". You need to know exactly where the limit is. If you are riding a track or in a "spirited" fashion on the road, the ability to know exactly where the brakes are is of utmost importance. If you think there are complaints about BMW brakes, just read any sport bike magazine. Adjectives such as "wooden" or "on-off" are used often. And look at the money that those folks spend on brake lines, pads, fluids, rotors, etc. Brakes are everything in a sport bike.

My first BMW was an 83 R-65. At the time I had a 2000 Honda CBR1000, which had amazingly good brakes. That old R65 had a set of brakes that scared me half to death a few times.........but I sold the bike before I could sort them out and bought an R1100RS. That bike had some of the best brakes I've ever experienced on a motorcycle. Coupled with that front suspension it was one of the best handling motorcycles I ever owned. Just very easy to ride well.

My current BMW is a 2004 R1150Rockster with an Olins suspension and aftermarket pads. Extremely good handling and the brakes are nothing short of fantastic.......But the servo system leaves me with less that confidence inspiring handling because I'm never sure where they are in a corner. It's all about feel.......

[shire2000]

The old saying "If you can't feel it, is it really there." sure comes to mind.
S
ome of us just like to feel brakes working.
Others would rather just squeeze the handle and expect the bike to slow down.
Just like some people like to shift gears by ear and maybe a quick glance at the tach, while others would rather have an automatic.

To each his/her/it's own. Hope I covered all the bases there.

[cactuspat]

I won't own a bike without abs. I too have been in a situation where the rider in front of me had to panic stop and locked up the rear wheel. Luckily, he managed to save it but almost hit the truck that pulled out in front of him. I was behind and jumped on the brakes, bled speed and was back off the brakes before he stopped. I'm a believer. Now as for the government mandateing it, I don't think so. Too many mandates already.

you should not follow that close,and you should ride staggerer, and not parallel. I personal believe abs is for people that never truly learned how to ride and brake properly,and it mite be a good thing for those people.but I have more miles than most and will not own a bike with abs unless it can be disconnected. Same goes for my trucks and cars. just my 2 cents, Its all in the feel.

[deilenberger]

you should not follow that close,and you should ride staggerer, and not parallel. I personal believe abs is for people that never truly learned how to ride and brake properly,and it mite be a good thing for those people.but I have more miles than most and will not own a bike with abs unless it can be disconnected. Same goes for my trucks and cars. just my 2 cents, Its all in the feel.I'm sure glad you're that skilled.. but not everyone is. I found the value of ABS when deer jumped in front of me, and I wanted all the braking I could get RIGHT NOW without worrying about locking the rear wheel and highsiding. I guess your many years of riding (I've only been riding a bit over 35 years.. a novice I guess..) have taught you how to handle variable road surfaces.

Congrats! Keep the rubber side down.

[osbornk]

you should not follow that close,and you should ride staggerer, and not parallel. I personal believe abs is for people that never truly learned how to ride and brake properly,and it mite be a good thing for those people.but I have more miles than most and will not own a bike with abs unless it can be disconnected. Same goes for my trucks and cars. just my 2 cents, Its all in the feel.

I found out long ago that I can't think and react as fast as a computer. I need all the help I can get.

[BeemerMike]

you should not follow that close,and you should ride staggerer, and not parallel. I personal believe abs is for people that never truly learned how to ride and brake properly,and it mite be a good thing for those people.but I have more miles than most and will not own a bike with abs unless it can be disconnected. Same goes for my trucks and cars. just my 2 cents, Its all in the feel.

Wow! Leaving aside the issue of servo-assisted brakes (which I do not care for), since the only time ABS will activate is if your finely-honed braking skills from truly learning how to ride and brake properly are not quite enough and you start to lock up one your tires, it seems the only downside to ABS is MAYBE a little softer brake feel due to the longer brake lines. Otherwise, the ABS just sits there quietly (again, not talking about servo-assisted brakes) . . . well, at least quietly after the first 20 feet. Maybe a good idea to be able to turn the ABS off when riding in sand and other soft surfaces.

With ABS, you can test how good you REALLY are in manually braking your motorcycle at its maximum capability, knowing that if you cross over the line the ABS will save your butt instead of pitching you face down on the pavement.

[2BikeMike]

you should not follow that close,and you should ride staggerer, and not parallel. I personal believe abs is for people that never truly learned how to ride and brake properly,and it mite be a good thing for those people.but I have more miles than most and will not own a bike with abs unless it can be disconnected. Same goes for my trucks and cars. just my 2 cents, Its all in the feel.

Well, at least you can spell ABS correctly.:clap

[MartyW]

I "tested" my abs brakes on my 02 RT. Slowing down to a red light I hauled 'em in hard, probably going 20 mph. I wanted to know what would happen. I'm 99% sure the back tire came off the ground, and came back down hard. I almost went over the handlebars. It scared the pierogies out of me. I was expecting rapid deceleration on 2 wheels, not a catapult. What was that all about? Now I'm skeered to lay on the brakes because I think I'll get bucked off, and then probably run over by my own bike. What is a hard stop supposed to feel like?
:scratch
-Marty

[Bob1100RTC]

Where did I say I was riding up his a-s and directly behind? I said I was behind him and a truck pulled in front. When I saw him lock his brakes and start to skid I jumped on my brakes too. I said that I bled my speed and was off the brakes and he was still skidding. I realize that I could have nowhere near your skill on a bike. Heck,I only rode the Blackwater 100 3 times so I must be a novice. But hey thanks for the tips and I'll keep them in mind. In the future you may want to read whats actually there and not add to it. ( Being as you were nice enough to give me some tips I thought I would return the favor)

[crazydrummerdude]

Aw, geez.. not this again.

[KGT1200]

Aw, geez.. not this again.

yep; another thread going down that road again...

[108625]

I like feedback and feel as much as the next guy, but...
Let's put pride aside and not think about our riding skills for a moment.
If I can stop more quickly with ABS and "whiny" power assist, great.
What if instead of the deer as an example, we substitute somebody's kid?

[henzilla]

yep; another thread going down that road again...

:type 'tis the season...:whistle

[KGT1200]

I have had to come up short on two occasions on my linked ABS wizzies, both times they have been applied evenly, and worked perfectly.05 GSR1200. 3 years, 50K+ miles over Colorado and Montana passes each year, and 35 years riding dirt and road. There is no basis to say that they suck for everyone..I beg yer pardon! Just sayin, that's my experience, so please realize not all ABS linked whizzy folks are sad about the purchase. I know how to work on them, I know how they work, and scratch my head over some of the negative comments on this thread.

[cactuspat]

sorry guys,did not intend to offend anyone,I was having a bad day.

[Vagabird]

I "tested" my abs brakes on my 02 RT. Slowing down to a red light I hauled 'em in hard, probably going 20 mph. I wanted to know what would happen. I'm 99% sure the back tire came off the ground, and came back down hard. I almost went over the handlebars. It scared the pierogies out of me. I was expecting rapid deceleration on 2 wheels, not a catapult. What was that all about? Now I'm skeered to lay on the brakes because I think I'll get bucked off, and then probably run over by my own bike. What is a hard stop supposed to feel like?
:scratch
-Marty

ABS will keep your tires from sliding. On dry, clean pavement your tires will grip like mad. From what you describe, probably the ABS didn't kick in at all. Sounds to me like everything was working right with your bike. ;)

[qtime]

I took the MSF experienced rider school at the Essex Junction rally. During the course we accelerated to 25 mph and stopped hard. I admit I was reluctant to take risks unnecessarily, but I got to the point after one or two stops that I could get the ABS to kick in on my 2000 RT and know what it feels like and feel safe doing it. Since then I periodically do hard stops for practice, and have continued this with my 07 RT. I am confident in applying my linked brakes and know how they respond in those situations, but of couse practice stops do not cover every situation.