Okay, Mr. Moderator...

[jobee58]

I'm an avid reader and an intermittent poster on this forum. Yesterday I read a "farewell" in which the departing individual seriously "spit on" (euphemism here, Dude) many members who routinely share here. So that gets the light of day... but then after a couple of less than complimentary replies, the thread gets doghoused.

Here's a thought ... how bout next time someone opts to begin a thread with blatantly disparaging remarks toward the "general populace" -- under whatever guise -- the post be screened out with a suggestion that the poster contact his "dear friends" via private message?

Or does that just make too much sense??

[rocketman]

Actually, that’s Mr. Moderators! and thus we try to act as a homogeneous group when possible so our actions may not always be immediate.

As for JK's parting comments those comments were rather broad and while they could be viewed as demeaning, since they were not directed specifically at any individual those in charge of that area of the forum let it ride for the time being.

Its a fine line we sometimes have to walk and we know that not all will agree with the decisions made 100% of the time, but that comes with the territory and we try to be as fair and impartial as possible, so sometimes we wait a bit to see what direction a thread is heading before taking action, but rest assured it was being monitored as best as our time allows, we can't all be here every minute, we too have lives outside the forum! (even though it may not seem that way at times!)

RocketMan (just one of a cast of many)

[PAULBACH]

jobee58:

According to the latest minutes one of the

Strategic Goals for the Next Year
"Shift the perception of forum operations from 'secret and cliquey' to 'open and opportune'"

Maybe change will occur ... next year

[WildBlue]

I'm an avid reader and an intermittent poster on this forum. Yesterday I read a "farewell" in which the departing individual seriously "spit on" (euphemism here, Dude) many members who routinely share here. So that gets the light of day... but then after a couple of less than complimentary replies, the thread gets doghoused.

Here's a thought ... how bout next time someone opts to begin a thread with blatantly disparaging remarks toward the "general populace" -- under whatever guise -- the post be screened out with a suggestion that the poster contact his "dear friends" via private message?

Or does that just make too much sense??

I am guessing there was some truth to what he said, which is why you feel stung?

I am one of the few younger members here and what JK states seems to be very true.

This of course is not a blanket statement, I met many several people at Spartanburg Rides, young and old. The majority were extremely friendly.

I only wish that transfered here to the forums as well.

[jobee58]

What "stung" is that I read this forum for two reasons... First and foremost is to learn about the technical elements of our machines from others with a great deal of experience; second is the enjoyment that comes from swapping stories, jokes, insights, pictures of wonderful machines, etc. What I feel is camaraderie, which is what I think this forum is meant to facilitate.

OTOH when someone is publicly sneering and grossly insulting to others because he/she deems that they don't live up to his/her notion of what constitutes a "real motorcyclist, that camaraderie is ruined. Anyone can disagree or express preference without having to "cheap-shot" people. If I wanted healthy doses of that I could watch reruns of Geraldo or Jerry Springer.

[Oldhway]

What "stung" is that I read this forum for two reasons... First and foremost is to learn about the technical elements of our machines from others with a great deal of experience; second is the enjoyment that comes from swapping stories, jokes, insights, pictures of wonderful machines, etc. What I feel is camaraderie, which is what I think this forum is meant to facilitate.

OTOH when someone is publicly sneering and grossly insulting to others because he/she deems that they don't live up to his/her notion of what constitutes a "real motorcyclist, that camaraderie is ruined. Anyone can disagree or express preference without having to "cheap-shot" people. If I wanted healthy doses of that I could watch reruns of Geraldo or Jerry Springer.


I agree 100% which is why the thread in question was closed. It would probably have happened sooner but as Jeff said, The mods can't be everywhere at once.

One of the main topics of discussion when it comes to moderation, is how to keep the discourse friendly and civil. For the most part, here on the MOA forum, it is. But occaisionally it gets out of hand and people forget that we're all here for the sense of community. As moderators, our goal is to allow everyone to have their say, but to do it in a way that is respectful. If that was the golden rule here that everybody followed, the Moderators could leave their keyboards and go ride their bikes more.

But for many people, the term "respectful" has different meanings. My standards of acceptable may be different than yours. I'm an old Yankee prude and prefer not to have this site filled with nudity or alot of cussing for example. Others may find that stuff acceptable. Over time, the desires and expectations of the majority becomes known and that becomes the litmus for acceptability. But rarely is the problem topical, more often it's how those topics are presented. As the membership grows and changes their expectations, the Forum leaders will (and do) guage that and change accordingly. Believe me it happens, but as I have come to find out, it takes time. So the challenge for the Moderators is simply to help provide an amiable atmosphere to participate in whatever discussion they may be having. For 99% of the members that is easy and if someone gets a little carried away, a simple reminder PM gets them back on task. But there is always that 1% who gets offended if you question anything they say and take offense that their opinion might offend someone else (Say that 3 times fast:doh ). Those folks have a right to be here and post too, but if they insist on the 99% live by their rules, things go haywire. And eventually they either realize that they do indeed respect this community and play within the rules, or they choose to or are asked to leave. That's never easy and the mods don't like to see anyone go, but it is sometimes unavoidable. And in this case, the manner that the individual chose to leave speaks quite clearly as to his feelings for this community.

Probably way to long an answer for a very simple question but I hope it makes sense.

[Visian]

jobee58:

According to the latest minutes one of the

Strategic Goals for the Next Year
"Shift the perception of forum operations from 'secret and cliquey' to 'open and opportune'"

Maybe change will occur ... next year

so, let me get this straight... was it "secret and cliquey" to let the discussion get started or to close the thread when it started bumping up against the intent of the posting guidelines ???

or was one decision open and opportune and the other secret and cliquey?

:scratch i am so conflicted

ian

[BONEY]

Posts like that are not unusual in an internet forum. They are best laid to rest early so that people like me don't troll the tread to really steam the OP into coming back into the forum and making a further ass of himself. The OP's always come back and lurk to see if what they said gets any reaction. Guaranteed, OP is reading our reactions. The point of posts like that are to incite, and to some extent the latest one did. The sad part is that there is someone out there who dislikes whatever is happening in his/her life right now enough so that (s)he cannot control his/her emotions in other aspects of daily living.

[PAULBACH]

so, let me get this straight... was it "secret and cliquey" to let the discussion get started or to close the thread when it started bumping up against the intent of the posting guidelines ???

or was one decision open and opportune and the other secret and cliquey?

:scratch i am so conflicted

ian

You will have you ask the mods or read the minutes and see what you glean from the minutes.

I put in quotes what came from the minutes. The material is on page three. Go to Forum Liaison - Ray Zimmerman for Lee Jones

Hard to answer you query about the thread since I did not read the thread.
I join you in the conflicted.

[Visian]

You will have you ask the mods or read the minutes and see what you glean from the minutes.

I put in quotes what came from the minutes. The material is on page three. Go to Forum Liaison - Ray Zimmerman for Lee Jones

Hard to answer you query about the thread since I did not read the thread.
I join you in the conflicted.

honestly, then... why did you post the comment? it sounds like you're saying you don't agree with the decision to doghouse the thread.

i'll be right up front, i think it was a correct decision... especially considering some wiseass was flashing his moobs! :ha

but then, i could be wrong. :eek

i know one thing i'm not wrong about, though... i wish JK didn't leave. but that was his decision.

[PAULBACH]

I usually don't explain why I post or don't post - hopefully that is answered by following the flow but since I have been so cryptic my esteemed colleague ... :bow

Jobee58 sez ...
I'm an avid reader and an intermittent poster on this forum. Yesterday I read a "farewell" in which the departing individual seriously "spit on" (euphemism here, Dude) many members who routinely share here. So that gets the light of day... but then after a couple of less than complimentary replies, the thread gets doghoused.


Now really - I don't know the answer to his questions. It all sounds "secret and cliquey" to me.

Secret and cliquey again come from the minutes posted on the home page.

I respond with a bit of wry commentary that like the Brooklyn citizens of yore ...
he will have to wait until next year.

I guess this loses the original intent at a humorous response.

honestly, then... why did you post the comment? it sounds like you're saying you don't agree with the decision to doghouse the thread.

i'll be right up front, i think it was a correct decision... especially considering some wiseass was flashing his moobs!

And once again I cannot truly say if the decision was right or wrong since I did not originally read the thread and even now ... have less enthusiasm to do so.

I think I best go start a thread on tires or motor oil. :laugh

[adamceckhardt]

One of the controversial members here gives a farewell speech and it gets doghoused?

What the hell is this? Every time I wander back in here to check out what has changed, I find a reason to log out.

So he claims that he has a better way of life than we do. Who cares. For once he didn't insult the ladies in the house.

As Eric Cartman would say-

"lame"

[Sue]

... snipped ... So he claims that he has a better way of life than we do. Who cares. For once he didn't insult the ladies in the house.





message edited at the recommendation of a friend:

Farewell Jay. Best of luck to you in the future.

[wezul]

My Mom once told me this: "If you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything".
I will say this, however; I agree with Sue R-M.

'Nuf said.

[Oldhway]

One of the controversial members here gives a farewell speech and it gets doghoused?

What the hell is this? Every time I wander back in here to check out what has changed, I find a reason to log out.

So he claims that he has a better way of life than we do. Who cares. For once he didn't insult the ladies in the house.

As Eric Cartman would say-

"lame"

The fact that he gave a farewell speech had nothing to do with the doghouse. The insults and inuendo (no, that's not an Italian suppository) are what got the thread doghoused.

If somebody left a Campfire I was at with a "I'm leaving and screw you" attitude, I wouldn't feel bad if folks ignored him.

Ignoring that part of his farewell would have indeed been "lame".

[tessler]

And that, my friends, is why I (personally) did not have any time for JK.

I am not sad to see him go. I did not see where he added any value to our campfire. If anyone disagreed with him, he would go straight for the jugular. He did that to me once. And what happened as a result? I stopped posting. (At least to any thread that he participated in.)

How many others out there are like me, I wonder.Me, to an extent.

I was perfectly willing to let him do whatever the heck he wanted to do in his own little area of the sandbox, but I never felt compelled to rise (or dive?) to any of the bait.

[adamceckhardt]

The fact that he gave a farewell speech had nothing to do with the doghouse. The insults and inuendo (no, that's not an Italian suppository) are what got the thread doghoused.
.

Seriously? People thought that there were genuine insults in there? If you can't take that stuff with a grain of salt, how are we supposed to take your Italian comment above? Making fun of the italian language by making reference to shoving something up your bum is like the pot calling the kettle black.

And Sue- go look through your PMs if you keep them.. I remember writing to you at least once about JK. I didn't think much of the guy either, I'm just saying that things are becoming increasingly sensitive around here and it's getting out of control. Like tessler said, why take his bait if you don't like how it tastes?

[KGT1200]

Geeze, I thought everybody’s testicles looked shriveled! It's just me?

[BubbaZanetti]

"lame"



that pretty much sums up this entire episode


why are we talking about this so much?

[tessler]

Seriously? People thought that there were genuine insults in there? If you can't take that stuff with a grain of salt, how are we supposed to take your Italian comment above? Making fun of the italian language by making reference to shoving something up your bum is like the pot calling the kettle black.

And Sue- go look through your PMs if you keep them.. I remember writing to you at least once about JK. I didn't think much of the guy either, I'm just saying that things are becoming increasingly sensitive around here and it's getting out of control. Like tessler said, why take his bait if you don't like how it tastes?Dude, that's just gross.

Plus, I kinda like the sensitivity around here. Even the whining has a poetic lilt to it. Dale has his Puppy. Ian is in creative communications and has been riding motorcycles since Edison invented them. Bubba has his sad clouds. Steve and Jeff'ry, musician and laureate-photographer respectively, are articulate and pretty good at their moderating roles.

And then there's Statdawg...

... And then there's Statdawg...

"Hello? Is this thing on?... "

:laugh

[adamceckhardt]

why are we talking about this so much?

because NOT talking about it won't change anything around here!

[Greenwald]

The fact that he gave a farewell speech had nothing to do with the doghouse. The insults and inuendo (no, that's not an Italian suppository) are what got the thread doghoused.

If somebody left a Campfire I was at with a "I'm leaving and screw you" attitude, I wouldn't feel bad if folks ignored him.

Ignoring that part of his farewell would have indeed been "lame".

You know, Steve......JK is still lurking out there, reading every one of these posts and laughing himself silly over the angst that his parting shots have rustled up.

May even have been his intent?!

That would be his nature. :jester

[rocketman]

Dude, that's just gross.

Plus, I kinda like the sensitivity around here. Even the whining has a poetic lilt to it. Dale has his Puppy. Ian is in creative communications and has been riding motorcycles since Edison invented them. Bubba has his sad clouds. Steve and Jeff'ry, musician and laureate-photographer respectively, are articulate and pretty good at their moderating roles.

And then there's Statdawg...

... And then there's Statdawg...

"Hello? Is this thing on?... "

:laugh

Um, what's with the apostrophe in my name? Don't like the fact there is no second "e"? You can blame my Mom for that, she was an English teacher for some years and figured the "y" took care of the second "e" sound, you have no idea how much trouble its caused me! Please refrain from such insulting use of the apostrophe in my name in the future, Thank you. :laugh

(and yes this IS all said in jest) if you're jonesing to use an apostrophe in my name you can just call me by my middle name which in fact does have one in it! Its a nice simple name spelled...... L'Hommedieu !

RM

[jobee58]

thanks to the moderators for taking the time & trouble to post here. I do see that it's not such an easy job... having to find a middle ground of so many different versions of what's acceptable.

[GrafikFeat]

...too funny... A year on the forum and 753 posts... When did he ride?

He also laments over youth... Yet his goodbyes were posted twice in a row "on this new fangled internets."

He'll be back.
I'm sure he's reading this now.

Shouldn't have dog housed it though.
His comments weren't bad...
It's the reactions of other "members" that are worse, (for lack of a better term.)
Pretty much helping his point.

Cya JK...

[Visian]

As Eric Cartman would say-

"lame"

no, he would say "screw you guys, i'm going home!" :ha

[rocketman]

...too funny... A year on the forum and 753 posts... When did he ride?

He also laments over youth... Yet his goodbyes were posted twice in a row "on this new fangled internets."

He'll be back.
I'm sure he's reading this now.

Shouldn't have dog housed it though.
His comments weren't bad...
It's the reactions of other "members" that are worse, (for lack of a better term.)
Pretty much helping his point.
Cya JK...

Keep in mind though what percentage of the overall membership those negative comments represent either in terms of actual posters or simply overall posts by the combined or total members and it quickly becomes apparent they ( the comments) represent but a tiny proportion, well under even 1% I would venture to guess so such analysis is not really valid overall.

Another thing to consider is that the tone of the initial post will often set the direction of subsequent posts in any thread. Do a little research on the use of propaganda techniques and you will quickly come to realize just how much the presentation of a subject will affect and influence and direct the reactions of those the information is presented to. Its quite an interesting subject and can lead to some interesting insight into the way information is provided via all forms of media or “live” presentations.

One example I can relate is the main reason I left my last job. The person they put in charge of my group took what I called the "management by confrontation" approach and by doing so set the tone of any discussion or direction of his actions which quite naturally lead others to respond in kind and immediately take a defensive posture in reply to his management decisions. Thus very little was accomplished and it became an atmosphere of “Us against Them (Or Him in this case)” so I left as well as every other member of the team, all within 6 months! and recently one of the other people I worked with in differant dept. informed me they have been unable to keep anyone for more than 6 months in his team, yet he remains in charge of that operation, go figure! :dunno an entire dept made disfuctional by a single individual! It was in fact a similar incident that helped lead to the demise of the old DGT, one person, no longer a member, attempted to take control of it by using such tactics to inflame others and use it as his personal sounding board.

Point is, if you want to have a discussion on some topic or truly wish to inform, then the subject needs to be presented in such a manner that will allow it to be perceived as such, otherwise the result is as we have seen in a number of such threads, esp. those subjects that are by their very nature “hot button” topics to start. Certainly there are times this presentation is not intended as such, but there are often times it is. Again that is one of the pitfalls of such discussions, esp. on-line where you do not have the benefit of visual clues as to the persons intent, so you have to rely on other means to make that determination, one of which is doing a “trend analysis” of the individuals prior posts. Naturally this can sometimes lead to false interpretation, but there other times when the intent becomes clear.

RM

[Vagabird]

RM

:thumb
What he said.

[GrafikFeat]

Point is, if you want to have a discussion on some topic or truly wish to inform,
then the subject needs to be presented in such a manner that will allow it to be perceived as such,
otherwise the result is as we have seen in a number of such threads...

Point Taken... :hungover

[rocketman]

Point Taken... :hungover

Please don't take personally it was not directed at anyone in particular, hell I'm been guilty of insiting a minor riot or two myself, it was meant as a general observation!

Didn't mean to give you a headache! :lol

RM

[OfficerImpersonator]

Say what you want about JK's outsized online personality, but there is truth in much of what he posted.

BMW's market share is shrinking. Heck - they can't even be bothered to put together a display for the motorcycle shows this winter.

Go look at the leadership and most active members of this club. What percentage are over 40 years old? We ARE old and stodgy and out of touch.

At this rate, in ten years, BMW will have the market share of Moto-Guzzi.

[r11rs94]

Tony Clifton would be so proud of JK...:dance

[KGT1200]

Say what you want about JK's outsized online personality, but there is truth in much of what he posted.

BMW's market share is shrinking. Heck - they can't even be bothered to put together a display for the motorcycle shows this winter.

Go look at the leadership and most active members of this club. What percentage are over 40 years old? We ARE old and stodgy and out of touch.

At this rate, in ten years, BMW will have the market share of Moto-Guzzi.

when you have bikes like the 450, 650 and 850 coming in line, why on earth would you not want to dispaly them at the show? Why not have Nate Kern signing a few autographs, why not have Chris pulling a few stoppies at this show?

Leave the big bikes home to roost for us fuddy duddies to find and explore, but WHAT ARE THEY THINKING leaving thier new line of dirt bkes toa a marketing program that misses the international show?

It dosen't seem to make sense to me, but then again, consider the source..what do I know? I mean thease shows are just packed with the under 30 crowd..maybe BME just wants to fail with this line of bikes here in the USA..

[DarrylRi]

I'm an avid reader and an intermittent poster on this forum. Yesterday I read a "farewell" in which the departing individual seriously "spit on" (euphemism here, Dude) many members who routinely share here. So that gets the light of day... but then after a couple of less than complimentary replies, the thread gets doghoused.

Here's a thought ... how bout next time someone opts to begin a thread with blatantly disparaging remarks toward the "general populace" -- under whatever guise -- the post be screened out with a suggestion that the poster contact his "dear friends" via private message?

Or does that just make too much sense??

I don't mean to jump on the OP here, but this is an example of what I see often as the forum admin.

To be clear, a bit over 11 hours transpired between the initial post and the trip to the doghouse in that thread. I'm not sure what you consider to be a reasonable response time, but to me, that's hardly a drawn out period for volunteer moderators to become aware of, and decide to take action on, a troubled thread.

Every time people complain about how the mods are not acting quickly, think about how long it might be before you, in their place, might come to see a problem thread. Out for a ride on Saturday? Come home from work too tired to look at the forum one evening? Perhaps out for a long weekend with the spouse/family/SO?

Without paid staff to look over every posting on the forum, it is entirely unreasonable, IMHO, to expect that the mods will react in less than a day or even two, to a thread that needs help.

The way YOU can help get the moderation you want on the forum is by hitting the blue exclamation mark (http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/images/newclassic//report.gif) and reporting posts that you think need attention. This sends an email directly to the mod(s) responsible for the area, and may give them a head start in finding the problem and acting on it. It doesn't guarantee that a posting will be handled in an hour instead of a day or so; but it can help.

I run an email list (for vintage BMWs) that is almost self moderating. Rarely do I have to take action because the (roughly 1850) members of the list already know what they want, and they do it for me. That email list has no written guidelines. It is polite, generally on topic, and even irreverant occasionally. In the last year I've moderated 2 people and bounced a couple spammers. I really wish we could get to a situation more like that here.

[GrafikFeat]

Please don't take personally it was not directed at anyone in particular...

Nah! You only quoted me entirely!

Seriously though... I was gonna remove it as my point wasn't very clear...
I was drawing attention to the fact that many folks here enjoy stoking the fire.
As some don't "get it" at all... And some just kiss @ss and agree w/ the loudest voice.

Personally?
No offense taken at all... Just a flag on the play! :D
<a href="http://www.smileyslord.com" title="Smileys" ><img src="http://www.smileyslord.com/smileys/3d-smileys-playing-rugby.gif" alt="Free Smileys" /></a>

[BubbaZanetti]

I don't mean to jump on the OP here, but this is an example of what I see often as the forum admin.


thanks darryl, and thank you too to the other mods who've been handling the campfire recently. a new job and other responsibilities combined with a bit of "forum frustration" have led me astray from here recently. i have tried, to the best of my abilities, to handle the occasional flood of pms i receive when things get out of line and the other average day to day traffic, but its not always possible for me to directly respond to every question or request. often, i pop into my office for 2 minutes, check the forum, get a phone call, have to dash away, and that pm might get left. again, its a volunteer thing we do, and a day or two is not an unreasonable time to wait for action. i'm probably online more than most people, and even i miss things. we do the best we can, thanks for understanding and patience.