Bye JK

[r11rs94]

:beer Sorry to see you go. While I rarely agreed with you,I did enjoy your threads. You last thread was send to the dog house before I could say so long. :rocker
Fair winds and following seas. Keep the rubber side down...:wow

[Bob1100RTC]

Wow! I just read JK's last post and he hit the nail on the head! I may be 48 but I still like to live like I'm 20. More fun that way. We all have to go some time and in the grand scheme of things what is a day or 20 years as long as you have fun doing it. I just hope God is forgiving when I get there.

[PAULBACH]

JK:

Will miss your posts and comments that provoked comment and thought.

Did not agree with all comments so skipped over those and did not lose any sleep or get my knickers in a knot.

I hate to see color depart to be replaced with only politically correct pablum.

Don't burn any bridges and keep checking back. Maybe next year Tavern On The Screen will go active.

[riderR1150GSAdv]

Sorry to see you go but I understand why. So many have left and many have reduced their amount of postings. Hopefully somebody will wake up and smell the roses before it is too late and many more members say goodbye...

[bobs98]

I'll miss your wit and insight.

Hope to meet over a real Rally Campfire one day. :beer

[xp8103]

I guess I am just not the type of person who lets the petty things get to him. I come here because the folks here ride Beemers, like me. It's fun to discuss things regarding our bikes. Next to Harley's, I'm not sure there is another group as devoted to their mode of 2-wheeled conveyance. Maybe I'm wrong. I'd certainly don't agree with everything that the club does but then I haven't been around it long enough to see all the relative merits of some things.

But to let what goes on here get to one in such a way that they feel the need to publicly drop out? For me, the MOA isn't about this website, it's about a bunch of people who ride BMWs. You can't go to ANY online community and agree with everything. In that respect on-line communities are EXACTLY like families and likely why we are drawn to them. I've read enough here to know that there are folks who think like I do and those that don't. So what? To let it bother me that much? I guess I don't get it. I love riding my bike WAY more than reading and posting here. Nothing that anyone writes or is not allowed to write will change that.

I've been on the other side of the on-line forum moderation fence. I know what it's like. It's always a subjective job and in that respect, you might as well be the Russian judge.....

So long JK. Keep the rubber side down.

[RJM2096]

I am going to miss JK.

While many times I did not agree with his views, he provided a thought provoking, sometimes a devils advocate, viewpoint.

It was almost as much fun to see what the moderators did with his threads.

JK what forum are you moving to?

[Rapid_Roy]

I was looking forward to meeting JK at a rally. To be fair, he has insulted some members here, but I also believe due to the tone/nature of his posts, some took offense and insults were lobbed at him first.
I would also like to state right now that I do not agree with everybody here, and I know that comes as a huge shock.:laugh
I hope that won't be a barrier to us being polite and friendly with each other, as we do have a common interest. (<s>No, it's not getting drunk at the National, although that could be counted as one</s>). Although I enjoy a fine female form as well as the next guy, I also enjoy a fine female mind. I am also kind of glad this forum is not plastered with Sport bikes and girls in thongs. There are plenty of those places on the 'net, and that is not what I come here for. If it was to become like that, I probably wouldn't complain, but I don't know if I would come here as often, I would leave it to the youngsters to have their fun. Complaining about it would make me feel like how when old folks complained about hair length in the '70s. I used to have long hair then , and I wondered why they really cared. Now I have much shorter hair, but I am not going to complain about it. If younger people (or anybody , for that matter) wants to have long hair, it's their choice. If people want to talk about stuff that doesn't interest me here, I will go elsewhwere, like a real campfire.
I only get to live once, so I am not going to waste it on the negative, there is enough of that in my life anyway.
See you on the road JK.

[Rollifahrer]

Don't stay gone too long. This forum, this club, needs a voice like yours.

[Mika]

JK’s threads were challenging, informative at times and frustrating at other times. They were delivered to us in an AM talk radio rapid fire fashion. Agree or disagree I hate to see any show go off the air.

Obviously not forgotten but is he gone? For the drama of his departure this time he has left the room before. I keep remembering the Saturday Night Live sketches that went on for weeks about the death of Generalissimo Ferdinand Franco at the time of his death. I just am not at all certain our Generalissimo has died or just left the room.

:lurk

[20774]

Obviously not forgotten but is he gone?

Apparently not...he shows up as having visited the forum as of 1:03pm today. Busted...

[From MARS]

Apparently not...he shows up as having visited the forum as of 1:03pm today. Busted...

Good. Maybe he'll read this and decide that he really does fill a niche at the campfire. He did throw out some interesting topics. I miss the Mother of All Monday thread. Not so much for the, as one person put it, "talking head commentary", but for the responses generated, opinions expressed, and the continuity it provided. You know; come home, go to the website, and see who's bitchin about something JK had posted, and whether it was a valid complain or not. Then, I would go on to other things posted around the site.

Now, I'm just reading about him instead of reading what he's posted. Its just not the same. I miss him.

Tom

[adamceckhardt]

yeah... I'll second the fact that its too bad that he left. I didn't care for half the stuff he said, but its no reason not to wave at the guy if we happen to pass each other someday. Heck, I don't even agree with my wife 100% of the time, but I agreed to spend the rest of my life with her.

and... I'll second what statdawg said about the club needing a youthful purpose.

there were a group of people at college that we referred to as "the dying tree" because they refused to branch out, and trees that do not branch out die. :deal

[Easy]

Adieu

You're comments will be missed.

Easy :german

[Rob Nye]

I'm more in the don't let the door hit you in the a** on your way out.

Public "I'm picking up my toys and leaving posts" are childish. Especially when the poster then lurks. It's all about *me* let me see what I can stir up kinda tripe.

As far as the tone of the forum and all that, well I'm not a big fan of it as it leans too far toward the PC end of things but apparently that serves the majority of the users. I'm willing to take my edgy stuff somewhere else rather than keep trying to force feed it here.

What is amazing about the forum is how it represents one major element of the MOA, we eat our own. :eat

The other thing I find interesting is the idea that a small percentage of a group can greatly overestimate their importance / influence. On the small scale it is the tiny yet very vocal members of the forum who pound away on the target du jour to a larger scale where say the folks who organize a major long distance event think that by bashing BMW final drives and moving their event near BMW HQ they will make BWM "admit" fault.

Just a whole lot of negative energy and tilting windmills.

[jimabmw]

JK called it as he saw it, and i admire him for that. I tend to agree with him because most of the people I have met in the BMW commuity think they know it all and are very hard to have fun with. I have more fun with my Harley riding friends, I found that even on this forum nobody knows how to take a joke.

[From MARS]

JK called it as he saw it, and i admire him for that. I tend to agree with him because most of the people I have met in the BMW commuity think they know it all and are very hard to have fun with. I have more fun with my Harley riding friends, I found that even on this forum nobody knows how to take a joke.

Sure we do! We take them personally!:bolt

Tom

[PAULBACH]

Robnye:
As far as the tone of the forum and all that, well I'm not a big fan of it as it leans too far toward the PC end of things but apparently that serves the majority of the users. I'm willing to take my edgy stuff somewhere else rather than keep trying to force feed it here.

What is amazing about the forum is how it represents one major element of the MOA, we eat our own.

Have to agree with you especially on the PC part. Unfortunately our entire society is allowing more erosion to occur to our First Amendment Rights with the political correctness of a few than a division of the Taliban could do with a army of jihadists.

Worse yet - the majority goes right along with it.

[tessler]

Have to agree with you especially on the PC part. Unfortunately our entire society is allowing more erosion to occur to our First Amendment Rights with the political correctness of a few than a division of the Taliban could do with a army of jihadists.

Worse yet - the majority goes right along with it.That's very interesting, Paul.

At the dawn of the 21st century, I personally perceive a more open, inclusive society than anything else, but then again, I'm strictly in the minority hailing from an especially diverse Northeastern metropolis.

I'm curious, however, where you see our own "community" for want of a better word, buckling under the weight of Political Correctness.

Rob, I'd be interested in your responses too.

Please cite as many examples and forum-excerpts as possible. I've often heard the same cry of unfairness, in my 4 years on this forum, but for the life of me, can never figure out whom and what the accuser is referring to. :dunno

[Rob Nye]

To Paul:

I don't see any erosion of my first amendment rights at all. I also don't expect to be able to fully exercise them in a private internet forum anymore than I do in a crowded movie theater.

To Mr Tessler, that's an awful lot of homework you want me to do.

How about you just do a quick search of the DGT debacle, that would be a start.

The post below got me an administrative warning (which is sticked to my user control panel, thanks big brother) for "General Nuisance / Misbehavior / Trolling"


Come on now, don't send the links around in PM's, post it here for *everyone* to judge.

:brad :whistle

AdvRider isn't what is used to be? WGAF?

What is?

But hey, we have pages and pages of policy on how to moderate the forum. I'm willing to wager that we are the only MC club / forum that has done that.

Remember, it isn't the folks that go out in a blaze of glory that we miss so much, it is the ones who simply find more fun somewhere else and don't bother to come back. They are having fun and putting together rides, rallies and parties for people who are considered a general nuisance here. :bottle

Fortunately the MOA Forum isn't the MOA and I don't think it really represents the MOA that most people pay $32 a year for.

Thank Dog for that.

[bullit7801]

Fortunately the MOA Forum isn't the MOA and I don't think it really represents the MOA that most people pay $32 a year for.Hey Rob,

The dues increase took effect on September 1, 2008. A one year membership is now $40. :stick Just trying to keep things correct. :bolt

tb

[Rob Nye]

Hey Rob,

The dues increase took effect on September 1, 2008. A one year membership is now $40. :stick Just trying to keep things correct. :bolt

tb


Thanks Tom!

What can I say I'm a lifer. :deal

Best investment I've ever made and as a professor in that sort of thing I'm sure you could provide numbers to prove my point.

Thanks to folks like you the value of my investment in the MOA is appreciating in a "difficult market".

:bow

[GregFeeler]

But hey, we have pages and pages of policy on how to moderate the forum. I'm willing to wager that we are the only MC club / forum that has done that.

Rob,
At one time we had sitting Board members who were also volunteering to moderate the forum and that generated accusations of censorship. Now we have an independent moderation team of all member volunteers moderating members and there are still complaints. You've been a mod here and on other forums - is there any way to moderate a forum where some won't be complaining and/or always testing the limits? If so - how?

[Rob Nye]

Rob,
At one time we had sitting Board members who were also volunteering to moderate the forum and that generated accusations of censorship. Now we have an independent moderation team of all member volunteers moderating members and there are still complaints. You've been a mod here and on other forums - is there any way to moderate a forum where some won't be complaining and/or always testing the limits? If so - how?

Sure there is.

Take a look at the IBMWR, same lead moderator for over 10 years. Yup some people dispise him but it is still the standard bearer.

Take a look at AdvRider. Moderators come and go. Exploding heads are allowed to explode, banned and never come back.

The problem here is that from the get go the tone was set that you could bash the moderators as much as you want and they couldn't shut you down.

Now the pendelum has swung so far to the right that the post I quoted above got me the little sticky from big brother which I get to see every time I check my CP.

On every other list I know of the moderator would have sent me a pm and we would have had a quiet discussion, end of story. That's good moderation, it's done with a keyboard, not a digital hammer.

When this approach was tried in the founding days of this forum the contacted member would just Bitch Moan and Whine right back on the forum itself, call the moderator names and demand his resignation. If they got a time out they would send all their PM's with the moderator to their friends who would use them to attack the moderators (and post them on the forum). On any other list the entire lot would get a time out and pretty quickly folks would figure out that that crap isn't tolerated here.

Instead we have reams of policy and a milquetoast forum. We've got moderators who prefer to use an automated system to send warnings vs direct and personal contact. That tells me we have moderators who feel that their number one priority is to cover their ass or they have been handcuffed by policy wonks.

Ted and Ian had the MOA pretty close to the leading edge of the Internet 12 years ago but in the time since the club has fallen far, far behind. Secure services (Country Store) is still a joke, there are no archives or information for members only on the website and as far as I can tell there are zero meet space events being generated from the forum.

Two of those items represent an investment of over six figures over the last five years and the meet space comment is an observation. Let's stop generating policy documents and demand tangible results before increasing compensation for those responsible.

There is absolutely nothing on the domain that an enthusiast can't find elsewhere. If your aim is to ride and have fun with other enthusiasts you have a much better chance with numerous other sites.

[PAULBACH]

Sure there is.

Take a look at the IBMWR, same lead moderator for over 10 years. Yup some people dispise him but it is still the standard bearer.

Take a look at AdvRider. Moderators come and go. Exploding heads are allowed to explode, banned and never come back.

The problem here is that from the get go the tone was set that you could bash the moderators as much as you want and they couldn't shut you down.

Now the pendelum has swung so far to the right that the post I quoted above got me the little sticky from big brother which I get to see every time I check my CP.

On every other list I know of the moderator would have sent me a pm and we would have had a quiet discussion, end of story. That's good moderation, it's done with a keyboard, not a digital hammer.

When this approach was tried in the founding days of this forum the contacted member would just Bitch Moan and Whine right back on the forum itself, call the moderator names and demand his resignation. If they got a time out they would send all their PM's with the moderator to their friends who would use them to attack the moderators (and post them on the forum). On any other list the entire lot would get a time out and pretty quickly folks would figure out that that crap isn't tolerated here.

Instead we have reams of policy and a milquetoast forum. We've got moderators who prefer to use an automated system to send warnings vs direct and personal contact. That tells me we have moderators who feel that their number one priority is to cover their ass or they have been handcuffed by policy wonks.

Ted and Ian had the MOA pretty close to the leading edge of the Internet 12 years ago but in the time since the club has fallen far, far behind. Secure services (Country Store) is still a joke, there are no archives or information for members only on the website and as far as I can tell there are zero meet space events being generated from the forum.

Two of those items represent an investment of over six figures over the last five years and the meet space comment is an observation. Let's stop generating policy documents and demand tangible results before increasing compensation for those responsible.

There is absolutely nothing on the domain that an enthusiast can't find elsewhere. If your aim is to ride and have fun with other enthusiasts you have a much better chance with numerous other sites.

:thumb

Sticky Notes and no appeal process? :cry

[tessler]

Sure there is.

Take a look at the IBMWR, same lead moderator for over 10 years. Yup some people dispise him but it is still the standard bearer.

Take a look at AdvRider. Moderators come and go. Exploding heads are allowed to explode, banned and never come back.These two examples tend to be different animals and have a culture all their own, un-attached to an organization, per se, but to a lifestyle.

The problem here is that from the get go the tone was set that you could bash the moderators as much as you want and they couldn't shut you down.Can you explain why this is/was a good thing?

Now the pendelum has swung so far to the right that the post I quoted above got me the little sticky from big brother which I get to see every time I check my CP.

On every other list I know of the moderator would have sent me a pm and we would have had a quiet discussion, end of story. That's good moderation, it's done with a keyboard, not a digital hammer.But this seems to be a much different tack from the one you describe above, "from the get go".

When this approach was tried in the founding days of this forum the contacted member would just Bitch Moan and Whine right back on the forum itself, call the moderator names and demand his resignation. If they got a time out they would send all their PM's with the moderator to their friends who would use them to attack the moderators (and post them on the forum). On any other list the entire lot would get a time out and pretty quickly folks would figure out that that crap isn't tolerated here.

Instead we have reams of policy and a milquetoast forum. We've got moderators who prefer to use an automated system to send warnings vs direct and personal contact. That tells me we have moderators who feel that their number one priority is to cover their ass or they have been handcuffed by policy wonks.We have policy wonks here? :)

Ted and Ian had the MOA pretty close to the leading edge of the Internet 12 years ago but in the time since the club has fallen far, far behind. Secure services (Country Store) is still a joke, there are no archives or information for members only on the website and as far as I can tell there are zero meet space events being generated from the forum.

Two of those items represent an investment of over six figures over the last five years and the meet space comment is an observation. Let's stop generating policy documents and demand tangible results before increasing compensation for those responsible.You seem to have wandered off point to two other areas that have nothing to do with the regulation of the forum. Good observations, but I thought these things were/are being addressed.

There is absolutely nothing on the domain that an enthusiast can't find elsewhere. If your aim is to ride and have fun with other enthusiasts you have a much better chance with numerous other sites.And? I can get socks and underwear at Macy's or Walmart or Target. In the end, it depends on convenience, stock and service.

[Rob Nye]

Can you explain why this is/was a good thing?

It wasn't a good thing, I thought I was clear on that one.


And? I can get socks and underwear at Macy's or Walmart or Target. In the end, it depends on convenience, stock and service.

Exactly!

In my opinion the MOA is one of the greatest enthusiasts clubs when it comes to the rally and the newsletter.

However on the internet we are flailing. While you take my issues as out of context I see comparisons to other forums and the rest of our internet efforts as very relevant.

There are other sites that have very high participation by MOA members, in fact, I'm willing to wager a friendly beer that there are more MOA members actively participating on AdvRider than there are here.

As the next generation of riders comes to age in the "internet era" why would they pay $40 a year to be a member of the MOA? Their perception of our rally would be based on our internet presence. Since you don't have to be a member to come they'll attend on a casual basis (and not volunteer for anything) only if a bunch of their friends are going too.

It's great that we are up to almost 40k members. The question is how many of these new members are over 47, make big money and are purchasing their first new motorcycle? I say come on down but the problem is they have little experience with the "culture" of motocycling and have little desire, time or patience to find it as it exists outside of the rondel.

The type of forum that appeals to this mind set will not appeal to the "enthusiast at large".

What we offer is great for this select few and somewhat unappealing to a gen x'er who just wants to ride and party like it's 1999. At least on the Internet.

Regarding the issues you think are being addressed, another 100 pages of policy, plans and strategy aren't going to generate results until we catch up with the goals of the last one.

[Mika]

“Our mission is to foster communication and a sense of family among BMW motorcycle enthusiasts.”

Sorry Jonathan that I’m not going to point to specific examples but I do get the sense that the unspoken part of this on the forum is …as long as they are BMW motorcycle enthusiasts like me.

Organizations with a lot of rules, forums or any other kind of organizations have them for one of two reasons.
• They are so busy doing something that they need the rules to keep them on task, or
• They have to much time on their hands and use that time to write rules because they aren’t busy doing something.

I am sorry to see JK go down the road. Not because I am a big fan or miss poking fun at people in his threads but because I am tired of seeing us send people down the internet road to other sites because they don’t think like ‘us’ we don’t have what they want or for any reason.

Father time and BMW’s product line are redefining the BMW motorcycle enthusiast. There is an existing community here that I don’t want to send down the road in the process yet how do we keep moving forward and include those new BMW motorcycle enthusiasts in the process? If we don’t do that we are going to become a stagnant backwater pool on the side of the internet road of motorcycle enthusiasts.

[glennhendricks]

Dude, the First Amendment (the most important) is all about the Government not infringing on your right to free expression.

It says nada about private circumstances like, say, your job, in your church or a private message board such as, say MOA fora.

The rules are posted, you don't like 'em, then you are free to either try to change them through the proper channels or take a stroll away.

Pretty simple IMHO.

[hlothery]

[QUOTE=Mika;391501I am sorry to see JK go down the road. Not because I am a big fan or miss poking fun at people in his threads but because I am tired of seeing us send people down the internet road to other sites because they don’t think like ‘us’ we don’t have what they want or for any reason.

.[/QUOTE]

Maybe I'm confused. I thought he chose to go.......didn't know we sent him anywhere. :dunno

Other than that, I'm smiling and nodding. :D

[Visian]

Maybe I'm confused. I thought he chose to go.......didn't know we sent him anywhere. :dunno

Other than that, I'm smiling and nodding. :D

:nono it's all george bush's fault.

[Mika]

Well guys obviously I am a fargin idiot and maybe I need to go down the road. Today its to the store.:D

[Oldhway]

:nono it's all george bush's fault.


Ian you S%$t stirrer you.:laugh

Bush I or Bush II ?

[BeemerMike]

I suggest that we need to distinguish between:

1. PC = Politically Correct = WHAT you say or talk about

and

2. PC = Politeness & Courtesy = HOW you say or talk about it

IMHO, the underlying problem in this instance, and in most others on this forum, is the #2 PC, and not the #1 PC.

Personally, I don't have much tolerance for #1 PC, but I have a lot of tolerance for #2 PC (even if sometimes I step over the line myself).

[Rollifahrer]

"...and these children that you spit on as they try to change their world,

are immune to you consultations, they're quite aware of what they're going through

Ch-ch-ch-changes..."

Not that MOA spits on children, more that many try really hard to ignore or counter inevitable changes which are carried forward by...you guessed it!...young people.

While I think his voice might benefit from some self-censoring, he has consistently been telling geezers to quit acting like geezers.

We don't need to abandon civility or morality or decorum, just loosen up the puritanical deathgrip on content. And if it goes too far, someone will have to tell the kids to quit acting like kids.

The club needs both.

[Oldhway]

"...and these children that you spit on as they try to change their world,

are immune to you consultations, they're quite aware of what they're going through

Ch-ch-ch-changes..."

Not that MOA spits on children, more that many try really hard to ignore or counter inevitable changes which are carried forward by...you guessed it!...young people.

While I think his voice might benefit from some self-censoring, he has consistently been telling geezers to quit acting like geezers.

We don't need to abandon civility or morality or decorum, just loosen up the puritanical deathgrip on content. And if it goes too far, someone will have to tell the kids to quit acting like kids.

The club needs both.


Just to stay on task here. I agree with you. The original thread in question was not doghoused for content, it was doghoused because of the name calling.

To further the point, and I think it's important to this discussion, if you go back to the threads that were closed, the majority were closed due to the deteriorating behavior, not the content.

The few that were closed due to political content were done after moderator warnings were given to the offenders. In most cases there were oppurtunities to edit the posts and save the thread but participants did not take advantage.

It's all there in the doghouse for folks to look at.

As far as changes here, the current Forum leadership is still working with the proposal to broaden the content allowed on this forum. If and when that happens, it's the behavior of folks that will make or break it.

[BeemerMike]

he has consistently been telling geezers to quit acting like geezers.

Sorry . . . I must have missed those posts.

[tessler]

Ian you S%$t stirrer you.:laugh

Bush I or Bush II ?Should it matter?

He should still get 5 demerits for improper use of lowercase letters in a Proper Name! :whistle

[rocketman]

Can I get a regimental tie to wear with my navy MOA blazer ?

Private schools, military, and the cooperate dress codes, all my life I have dealt with rules. The MOA is a private club and we have rules. Freedom of speech doesn't over ride national security.............yes blame the guy Ian said.

And NO SMOKING CIGARS you Marxist !


Hey! Lets no go overboard! I'm no Marxist but please, let me have my Cubans! (cigars, that is!) :lol

RM

[Oldhway]

Hey! Lets no go overboard! I'm no Marxist but please, let me have my Cubans! (cigars, that is!) :lol

RM
One of my first girlfriends was Cuban........ Ah that hot Latin blood. Taught me what it meant to be a man.... And then her dad taught me what it was like to be afraid.

Oh, cigars. No thank, you I don't smoke (but she was definitely smokin').

[Mika]

:scratch I need to rethink how I factor office supplies into my billing.


I was responding from what I was getting out of some of Rob’s posts.

Dude, before people go all constitutional on me that was not the point I was making. I leave it up individuals to decide on there own if there are enough, too many or not enough rules. The point was on who we are letting into the church and asking directly or indirectly to leave once they are in the pews.

JK isn’t the best example but sometimes you work with the case you have to try and make a broader point. Yes, if he has really left, he left of his own choosing and did it poorly in the process. I am left wondering why so many active voices have left, or new voices don't stay around.

Other than speed I don’t have a whole lot of trouble with the forum leadership and what is planned. As to speed things never happen as quickly as anyone wants them to. The bike ain’t totally broken and impossible to ride it is what we posters are doing with the bike that has me wondering.

[GregFeeler]

Sure there is.

Take a look at the IBMWR, same lead moderator for over 10 years. Yup some people dispise him but it is still the standard bearer.

Take a look at AdvRider. Moderators come and go. Exploding heads are allowed to explode, banned and never come back.

The problem here is that from the get go the tone was set that you could bash the moderators as much as you want and they couldn't shut you down.

Neither of those examples apply. They are *free* and *privately* run. This forum is a benefit of a paid membership. Some of those techniques were used here by earlier moderators - ROB - and they didn't go over very well.

Now the pendelum has swung so far to the right that the post I quoted above got me the little sticky from big brother which I get to see every time I check my CP.

On every other list I know of the moderator would have sent me a pm and we would have had a quiet discussion, end of story. That's good moderation, it's done with a keyboard, not a digital hammer.

Have you approached either the Forum Administrator or Forum Liaison about this issue? Wouldn't that be the model you described above?

When this approach was tried in the founding days of this forum the contacted member would just Bitch Moan and Whine right back on the forum itself, call the moderator names and demand his resignation. If they got a time out they would send all their PM's with the moderator to their friends who would use them to attack the moderators (and post them on the forum). On any other list the entire lot would get a time out and pretty quickly folks would figure out that that crap isn't tolerated here.

So, we're not using a big enough hammer to smash heads - is that it?

Instead we have reams of policy and a milquetoast forum. We've got moderators who prefer to use an automated system to send warnings vs direct and personal contact. That tells me we have moderators who feel that their number one priority is to cover their ass or they have been handcuffed by policy wonks.


Are you saying having published guidelines makes us weak? But to go on and say: "reams of policy" and "policy wonks", well, with all due respect, Rob, these things exist only in your mind.


Ted and Ian had the MOA pretty close to the leading edge of the Internet 12 years ago but in the time since the club has fallen far, far behind. Secure services (Country Store) is still a joke, there are no archives or information for members only on the website and as far as I can tell there are zero meet space events being generated from the forum.

Sorry, I don't agree. Ted and Ian were trailblazers and have my respect and appreciation, and they were limited by a zero budget and no backing from the organization.

However, ten years ago we didn't have this forum, we had an Owners News that hogged every news item that came into the organization, we had no budget for the web site other than hosting space, and there was no coordination or sharing of information between it and the ON, the web site was not much more than a static electronic brochure, and we didn't have secure on-line registration or membership join/renew/profile access. I'll grant that the Country Store site is very lame, but that will be fixed.

Now we have fully coordinated media, a thriving forum, record membership (we're growing slightly when almost every other motorcycle affinity group is not), and web site content that changes daily in some cases (and new viewership records every month). And - remember that none of this initiatives were started before January of 2003 (not withstanding Ian's vain attempts to get some management action earlier). The fact is we've made all these changes in just five years, which as you well know, is pretty quick for a membership organization adverse to change.

Two of those items represent an investment of over six figures over the last five years and the meet space comment is an observation.

Yes, all items *combined* for the five years we've even been working on these things. We've made the financial commitment and come from just above zero to were we are today. I would say we've gotten a pretty good return on our investment.

Meat space events are the responsibility of the forum MEMBERS. Nothing to stop you from organizing something in your end of the country. That's how it's done on ADVRider. We'll soon have geographic regional forums here which should help folks organize physical events.

Let's stop generating policy documents and demand tangible results before increasing compensation for those responsible.

Here you go again with those left-handed insinuations: "before increasing compensation...", as if to say we (the BMW MOA) are *rewarding* inferior results. That not only not true - I would call it a cheap shot.


There is absolutely nothing on the domain that an enthusiast can't find elsewhere. If your aim is to ride and have fun with other enthusiasts you have a much better chance with numerous other sites.

Better? Matter of opinion. But you're right that a lot of what you find on this forum can be found other places to a significant degree. And your point is what? Where was it ever said that by some miracle the BMW MOA would create something totally unique in the whole world of cyber space? Our goal is nothing like that. We're here to make a community for our members. To add value to their membership. To offer information and help and friendships. Yes, you can get those things with other groups perhaps. The old days when one organization could have a strangle hold on these "benefits" are long gone - the Internet killed that model. There are always going to be dozens - even hundreds - of on-line "communities". I belong to like a half-dozed myself and I'm not alone. This is the way of things now.

However, what we can and should do with the BMW MOA is to *help* these groups, to foster them to some extent. Exactly what kind of well-funded and organized event can the masses of ADVRider sponsor? None. What event does the IBMWR sponsor? The Blitz to Branson where everyone rents a hotel room and hangs together. The Curve Cowboys have it going on, but most other on-line groups are just - and only - that: on-line social groups. However, the BMW MOA has money, skilled volunteers, a full-time office staff, and proven organizational skills. Rather than try to out-ADVRider ADVRider with our forum, how about we help BMW riders in new constituencies organize real, physical events? That gives them a real reason to be members, and it lets us foster more interest in BMW brand activities. We need to let go of the idea that all these new rider groups we are after need to find the same value in a membership as our traditional members. We'll have to create new "divisions". These "other" BMW riders need to see the face of this organization that they want, and I don't think we'll satisfy them, or retain our current members if we try to hammer what we have into something it's not.

[Rob Nye]

No mas.

We'll come back to this in another six months and measure progress.

[tessler]

However, what we can and should do with the BMW MOA is to *help* these groups, to foster them to some extent. Exactly what kind of well-funded and organized event can the masses of ADVRider sponsor? None. What event does the IBMWR sponsor? The Blitz to Branson where everyone rents a hotel room and hangs together. The Curve Cowboys have it going on, but most other on-line groups are just - and only - that: on-line social groups.Don't forget the Big Gig (http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showthread.php?t=31268&goto=newpost)! Now in it's Third Year!

[Rob Nye]

Don't forget the Big Gig (http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showthread.php?t=31268&goto=newpost)! Now in it's Third Year!

I'll be there for my second time!

I wonder if we'll get the opportunity to go to another Hairy Man Party. :D

[Rasbutan]

snip...

Exactly what kind of well-funded and organized event can the masses of ADVRider sponsor? None. ....snip

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=303079&page=37&highlight=central+rally

I attended this rally. I crashed. It hurt. ****in bridge.

But, we had t-shirts. We had live music. We had food. We had riding. We had camping and swimming, we had a most excellent choice of 10 different beers on tap, and we had fun.....well, except for the crashing part.

All of it funded by the people who showed up, much the same as the national.

I don't post much over here anymore, it's just too much effort to make sure I'm adhering to all your rules. I'm not going to leave the MOA, but it's just no fun on here. Topics are really limited, and if you go against the flow you're deemed a troll and dogpiled on. I mentioned in an email earlier to Sue RM, the forum portrays a lot about the MOA. If a new rider lurks around here, wondering if this is the type of club they want to join, what are they going to find? A group that is accepting of multiple points of view, or a bunch of fuddy duddys that don't want anyone here if they're not the same?

signed....one of the younger riders :cry

EDIT: Uhm, apparently I can't use the word f**k.

[tessler]

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=303079&page=37&highlight=central+rally

I attended this rally. I crashed. It hurt. ****in bridge.

But, we had t-shirts. We had live music. We had food. We had riding. We had camping and swimming, we had a most excellent choice of 10 different beers on tap, and we had fun.....well, except for the crashing part.

All of it funded by the people who showed up, much the same as the national.

I don't post much over here anymore, it's just too much effort to make sure I'm adhering to all your rules. I'm not going to leave the MOA, but it's just no fun on here. Topics are really limited, and if you go against the flow you're deemed a troll and dogpiled on. I mentioned in an email earlier to Sue RM, the forum portrays a lot about the MOA. If a new rider lurks around here, wondering if this is the type of club they want to join, what are they going to find? A group that is accepting of multiple points of view, or a bunch of fuddy duddys that don't want anyone here if they're not the same?

signed....one of the younger riders :cry
Chris, It's not the same, comparing here... to there... Apples and Oranges. And like Greg pointed out this forum is a benefit of paid membership.

What kills me is the amount of time a small cadre of people-who'd-rather-be-elsewhere spend deriding this club and many of it's volunteers as a bunch of fuddy-duddies and anti-fun activists, while hurriedly packing their pail and shovel to go play in another sandbox.

I mean, what do you want to happen here exactly? What?

You want the Cro-Mag rally? Go to the Cro-Mag rally. You want the National (to which, as a member you have every right to attend and enjoy)? Go to a National.

If you stand up in front of your frat mates and make a speech, you can pontificate, say or use whatever conventions enter your mind, but if you were to stand up in front of the entire student body, faculty, administration and esteemed visitors, you'd easily find the appropriate decorum to address that group. It seems like common sense to me. This club, to me, is analogous to the larger group.

[Rasbutan]

Chris, It's not the same, comparing here... to there... Apples and Oranges. And like Greg pointed out this forum is a benefit of paid membership.

I guess I figured that since both forums were centered around motorcycles(riding, and all the extras that go with it) that they had some commonality. My mistake.

What kills me is the amount of time a small cadre of people-who'd-rather-be-elsewhere spend deriding this club and many of it's volunteers as a bunch of fuddy-duddies and anti-fun activists, while hurriedly packing their pail and shovel to go play in another sandbox.

I packed my pail and headed down the beach last year, when it was pointed out that I might find another forum more to my liking. While I can handle myself in an online forum, and I know the benefits of the MOA outside this 'clubhouse', others may not.

I mean, what do you want to happen here exactly? What?

I'd like to see folks lighten up around here, there's more to life than than just BMWs. I love riding, and have a large number of friends in the MOA, but you can only talk about that so much.

You want the Cro-Mag rally? Go to the Cro-Mag rally. You want the National (to which, as a member you have every right to attend and enjoy)? Go to a National.

I'll do both. Why the reference of Cro-Mag to ADVrider? I understand some people think it's full of low-brows, but there are many MOA members that hang out over there too...our prez included

If you stand up in front of your frat mates and make a speech, you can pontificate, say or use whatever conventions enter your mind, but if you were to stand up in front of the entire student body, faculty, administration and esteemed visitors, you'd easily find the appropriate decorum to address that group. It seems like common sense to me. This club, to me, is analogous to the larger group.

Doesn't this last paragraph seem a bit elitist? The member following over there is twice that of here, so it would seem the smaller group is this one. I swear around my boss, my parents and grandparents, and many others. I guess I'm not showing the appropriate decorum.


My responses in blue. I didn't mean to stir the pot, or ruffle feathers. I was merely trying to point out how this would appear to someone looking in.

I guess I'll head back down the beach, even tho it's frozen now. :cry

[Rob Nye]

My responses in yellow. I didn't mean to stir the pot, or ruffle feathers. I was merely trying to point out how this would appear to someone looking in.

I guess I'll head back down the beach, even tho it's frozen now. :cry

I'd really like to know what you said but I can't read the yellow.

Any chance of changing it to green, blue or red?

Thanks,

Color blind in RI.

[Rob Nye]

This club, to me, is analogous to the larger group.

Analogous perhaps but larger?

Based on what? Not page views, posts, topics or registered members.

The pay forum thing is a tired saw. To say that the MOA forum is the way it is or has to be the way it is because it is part of a paid member benefit is IMO a bit of a stretch, especially when there are more active (internet wise) MOA members on other forums.

This forum is what it is, take it or leave it, however as a tool to recruit, attract and retain new members under 50 it isn't working. This was a stated goal of the forum, secure services and the six figure investment.

First step toward improvement is recognizing the issue and exploring solutions that can be expressed and implemented in under 4 years and 40,000 words.

[tommcgee]

I'd really like to know what you said but I can't read the yellow.

Any chance of changing it to green, blue or red?

Thanks,

Color blind in RI.

Highlight it by selecting it.

[KGT1200]

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=303079&page=37&highlight=central+rally

I attended this rally. I crashed. It hurt. ****in bridge.

But, we had t-shirts. We had live music. We had food. We had riding. We had camping and swimming, we had a most excellent choice of 10 different beers on tap, and we had fun.....well, except for the crashing part.

All of it funded by the people who showed up, much the same as the national.

I don't post much over here anymore, it's just too much effort to make sure I'm adhering to all your rules. I'm not going to leave the MOA, but it's just no fun on here. Topics are really limited, and if you go against the flow you're deemed a troll and dogpiled on. I mentioned in an email earlier to Sue RM, the forum portrays a lot about the MOA. If a new rider lurks around here, wondering if this is the type of club they want to join, what are they going to find? A group that is accepting of multiple points of view, or a bunch of fuddy duddys that don't want anyone here if they're not the same?

signed....one of the younger riders :cry

EDIT: Uhm, apparently I can't use the word f**k.



You know what was cool about this rally? Spontaneous acts of coolness!

Everybody around the food tent pitched in, many (including me) donated time and food, everybody young and old (yes some old AND shriveled) had a great time together!

Was it better than BMWMOA Rally? Nope, can’t compare the two. Very different but equally enjoyed by all.

ADV Rally and ADV website is varied in people as they are in motorcycles. I saw as many "old" as I did young. I saw as many BMWs as I did Yamahas. No one was excluded from the fun! I have a great time when over at the ADV site, although I barely have time enough to post here!
I do however do my thing over there with NO complaints! It's fun!

And for all those who accepted this ol fuddy duddy in their Rally:


f**k! This n00b want's to go again!


Red

[adamceckhardt]

. Very different but equally enjoyed by all.



Exactly... why can't we expand just a little bit? one tiny little baby step? ever so slightly thicker skin?

Ever seen the movie PCU?

"we're not gonna protest"

kinda funny that you gotta protest to get everyone not to protest.

[KGT1200]

Exactly... why can't we expand just a little bit? one tiny little baby step? ever so slightly thicker skin?

Ever seen the movie PCU?

"we're not gonna protest"

kinda funny that you gotta protest to get everyone not to protest.

This is one cockroach just waiting, biding my time for the Tavern ...

seems like one unending pregnancy of time....

[Statdawg]

I'm more in the don't let the door hit you in the a** on your way out.

Public "I'm picking up my toys and leaving posts" are childish. Especially when the poster then lurks. It's all about *me* let me see what I can stir up kinda tripe.

As far as the tone of the forum and all that, well I'm not a big fan of it as it leans too far toward the PC end of things but apparently that serves the majority of the users. I'm willing to take my edgy stuff somewhere else rather than keep trying to force feed it here.

What is amazing about the forum is how it represents one major element of the MOA, we eat our own. :eat

The other thing I find interesting is the idea that a small percentage of a group can greatly overestimate their importance / influence. On the small scale it is the tiny yet very vocal members of the forum who pound away on the target du jour to a larger scale where say the folks who organize a major long distance event think that by bashing BMW final drives and moving their event near BMW HQ they will make BWM "admit" fault.

Just a whole lot of negative energy and tilting windmills.

Is there a difference in posting and lurking and posting and having an RSS feed ?

Now Rob aren't you close to or voicing the same negativity that drives potential volunteers away ? You seem at one point to be proactive about the forum and will list its benefits or even go back to BC ( Before Cohen left ) days. Then you say the forum is a small percentage group pounding whatever agenda they may have which becomes irritating. So can members be proactive or are they just Whiners and Moaners and should be ignored since they are not in the inner circle ?

See the attitude or culture was here way before I arrived on the scene, so I am just asking because it appears to be a two way street to have a successful forum. Usually its the Indians threatening attack and management circles the wagons over and over again, no constructive dialog but more or less the one's of no authority are told to go ride somewhere. Its the same people of pros and the cons till someone leaves and another joins a side. Well I guess that is the value of paying for a private club forum verses hanging out with another free forum crowd. So how can we change ? How can we get to were we are one ? Certainly the caliber of the people here and six figure IT investment could do better. Or am I wrong ?

It seems by using the search mechanism one can discover there was always issues between those running the forum / club and those using it. The user names have changed and some members left but its the same old tune that the Forum users are nothing but whiners and moaners. After all even your standard answer short are long boils down to "I like this forum for keeping up on MOA stuff and the overall "misery index" of the Bitch Moan and Whine crowd ". This is the short version of some of your posts regardless if its JK or one inquiring about Club business ( you know those out riding the computer keys instead of the road ). Sorry if I am one of them, I work on the super highway and I do ride. And if the MOA was a tiny club I wouldn't care but someone is flying a 3 million dollar outfit so I ask questions after all I am a member and I paid to ask. One voice of 40,000 so too bad.

I really feel that your good bye to JK was counterproductive and a good reminder of how the forum culture is. Sadly to a man that was responsible for 100 million dollars in aircraft if he has to be placed on some sort of food chain of life importance, but he is still a member regardless how he is. Really 10,000 thread views of talking head financial news of doom and gloom should mean something. After all the mods could have kept it alive and deleted negative post. It has been done before.

I have found that past and the future is only successful with the advocacy of the leadership that members begin to attend events, partake of the benefits, and use the forum to offer their wisdom to the club. But if the forum users are refered to as Bitch and Moaners how can anyone wish to get involved or even want to run for office ?

Sorry but I am just trying to understand and like you trying to get the forum a positive member to member communication unfiltered state if it ever was. I know, I know go ride somewhere. :bow Things within in the Club just don't add up.

[PAULBACH]

"The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars,
But in ourselves, that we are underlings."
eNotes
(http://www.enotes.com/shakespeare-quotes/fault-dear-brutus-our-stars)
Hang in there - everyone.

I hate to see anyone quit because a pair of watchful eyes are gone. The cost of liberty is eternal vigilance.

We need to be adult enough to read an editorial and write a reasoned response. We should also be smart enough to turn the page of the newspaper or go read another thread when our blood pressure starts to climb.

Read the funnies, do a crossword puzzle or figure out a sidoku. All of the time we spend here is discretionary except for the volunteers who want to be here and promised to do their best to serve the commonweal. They too should take a deep breath and count to ten. When our elected officials or our volunteers don't do their jobs they should not get bent of shape when someone points out a shortcoming. They need to get the job done and the rest need let the change occur.

Too bad that for most of us there are no carpets to beat, wood to split, ashes to carry out or long walks to work and back.

Hey, this is only November and the snow is not on the ground - yet. Save some energy for the camp fires yet to be lit. :laugh

[snoone]

I'll be there for my second time!

I wonder if we'll get the opportunity to go to another Hairy Man Party. :D

From 1st hand experience I know that the Hairy Man Party is for real men and women.. I for one lurked at the door and was scared to go down there.. Maybe I'll grow some hair this year and take the plunge! There's always a Hairy Man Party somewhere! What happens at the Gig stays at the Gig except for the trickle of information that comes from the moles... Be there or be square... Whatever happens, it will be extraordinary. Plate of pork anyone??? Get your tee shirts now!! JK is welcome to come.. We are an all inclusive, all brand, all everything indoor winter campfire....

[adamceckhardt]

This is one cockroach just waiting, biding my time for the Tavern ...

seems like one unending pregnancy of time....

maybe i'm too tired... but... huh????

[aaaaaa]

This thread is worthless without pictures.
robert

[KGT1200]

maybe i'm too tired... but... huh????

Cockroach
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa30/redclfco/cockroach.jpg

is a metaphor "coined" to describe some BMWMOA members that really

Love

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa30/redclfco/heart.jpg

the forum, and wish to see it expand it's base from a bunch of

grumpy old men

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa30/redclfco/Grumpy.jpg

to include

Young Riders

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa30/redclfco/Younger.jpg

So some of the

Old Men

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa30/redclfco/Grumpy.jpg

Decided to put forth an

idea
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa30/redclfco/idea.jpg

to create a virtual

Tavern
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa30/redclfco/tavern.jpg

to discuss new ideas, world politics, current affairs, religion (gasp) and other ideas
that may be of interest to both

young
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa30/redclfco/Younger.jpg

and young of mind!
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa30/redclfco/beerbellies.jpg


Sadly, the Forum Gods and Gurus
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa30/redclfco/gurus.jpg

have been dragging their feet
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa30/redclfco/feetdragging.jpg


in getting it started, in fact many of the BMWMOA Members

(cockroaches)
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa30/redclfco/cockroach.jpg


believe they will NEVER get it started (including me, some days)

Thus my comment about

"one unending pregnancy
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa30/redclfco/preggo.jpg


of time"..


I hope this clears it up for you. Sorry! You had to of followed this from the beginning to get it, and sadly, many who were there from the beginning still don’t get it

Red

[Oldhway]

Cockroach
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa30/redclfco/cockroach.jpg

is a metaphor "coined" to describe some BMWMOA members that really

Love

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa30/redclfco/heart.jpg

the forum, and wish to see it expand it's base from a bunch of

grumpy old men

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa30/redclfco/Grumpy.jpg

to include

Young Riders

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa30/redclfco/Younger.jpg

So some of the

Old Men

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa30/redclfco/Grumpy.jpg

decided to put forth an

idea
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa30/redclfco/idea.jpg

to create a virtural

Tavern
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa30/redclfco/tavern.jpg

to discuss new ideas, world politics, current affairs, religion (gasp) and other ideas
that may be of intrest to both

young
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa30/redclfco/Younger.jpg

and young of mind!
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa30/redclfco/beerbellies.jpg


Sadly , the Forum Gods and Gurus
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa30/redclfco/gurus.jpg

have been dragging their feet
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa30/redclfco/feetdragging.jpg


in getting it started, in fact many believe they will NEVER get it started (including me, somedays)

thus my comment about

"one unending pregnancy
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa30/redclfco/preggo.jpg


of time"..


I hope this clears it up for you. Sorry! You had to of followed this from the beginning to get it, and sadly, many who were there from the beginning still dont get it

Red

Red, you are a true artist. A picture perfect story if I ever saw one.

Of course I think it was the bible that said a thousand years for men is like but a moment to God.

You and I probably wear Timex (well I do have one Seiko), Deity would wear Rolex.

But an angel of the lord (small L intentional, me being a church going kinda guy, I actually have to play bass there tomorrow and...., oh wait I got sidetracked, must be this over 50 thing. now where was i? oh yeah) an angel has whispered in my ear that in the fullness of time, a Tavern shall appear.

We must but have faith and believe. Or something like that.

I'll even buy the first round.


Advance apologies to all devout souls, I paraphrased poorly so as not to be too irreverant, please forgive me, I am but a humble servant..

[PAULBACH]

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g264/PaulBach/ClipArt/whereisthebeef.jpg
Where's the TOTS?

US officials flunk test of American history, economics, civics (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20081120/od_afp/ushistoryeducationoffbeat)

Meanwhile, civic knowledge is enhanced by discussing public affairs, taking part in civic activities and reading about current events and history, the group said.
(Like TOTS)

[adamceckhardt]

thanks for the explanation. what do you call a young member that hardly spends any time here anymore?

[KGT1200]

thanks for the explanation. what do you call a young member that hardly spends any time here anymore?


In the trough of disillusionment
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa30/redclfco/d.jpg

The Solution

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa30/redclfco/thebigd2.jpg



I have had this postcard, drawn by John Callahan, for many years in my "Food for Thought" binder which contains words and pictures to laugh, cry and be inspired by. Every time I read it, I laugh out loud. I think it captures a sentiment felt by so many people: BMWMOA is not measuring up to your expectations.
Are you enjoying BMWMOA as much as you thought you would be at this point in your membership? Do you love your motorcycle, other club members, Forum and delight in waking up each day knowing that the BMWMOA is out there waiting for you? Do you feel that BMWMOA has lived up to their true potential and found activities that moves and inspires you? Are you in excellent company, and more importantly do they drink enough beer? Does everyone you are involved with at the BMWMOA understand that all must drink until inebriated so no one knows how bombed anyone else gets?
If you are like most BMWMOA Members, you may have a hard time answering yes to all these questions. It may feel impossible to get to such a place of happiness. From personal experience, I know it is possible to get there. It didn't come from years of loneliness riding my BMW. It came as a subtle shift in my own thinking.
Because I made some poor choices earlier in my Motorcycle club life (think Sturgis in 2001 waking up next to a 50 year old lady in my sleeping bag with “Elvis” tattooed on her arm), I used to beat myself up for not figuring it all out. My inner dialog was something like:
"What is wrong with me? I know better than this! Why am I choosing to do something that I know is not good for me? Why can't I figure this out?"
As soon as I would voice those words, I would feel my throat tighten up and a pit develop in my stomach. My head would get light and I would feel off-balance and ill-at-ease. This did nothing to make me want to change my behavior, in fact in most cases it made me want to do something destructive like eat a pint of ice cream or buy an expensive farkle or electronic gadget that I really didn't need.
One day things shifted. I spent a lot of time in meditative drinking sessions drinking lager versus Budweiser, searching for peace and understanding. Then I received a gentle message:
There is nothing wrong with me.
I don't need to be fixed, doctored, taped up or altered; my Membership in BMWMOA is just fine, just pay the God D$%^&mn dues!
I have not always made good decisions in my life. I stayed in motorcycle clubs that were not good for my soul or mental health. I spent too much money on beer, bikes and women and didn't save enough in my 20s. I wasn't always the best club Member or riding companion or friend that I could be. I left many in the dust with a flat tire or broken bike. Now I know to take responsibility for all my insincere ness; I now know what is best for me is the BMWMOA! Call your BMWMOA representative today! Tell them you demand the Tavern! Let them know you need somewhere to discuss everything rolling around your head! Tell them you need a place to go where everyone knows your name! Let them know your need, and desire for the Tavern on the BMW Forum!

[RocksforBrains]

I am an MOA member and lurk on this site several times a week. I am also a member in a couple of other BMW focused forums as well as lurk on the ADV site. I post sporadically on this and other sites really only when I have something to add or have a technical question.

You know I am always amazed at the amount of whining that happens on this site. I am almost to the point where I will skip the Clubhouse and Campfire forums and focus only on the technical and ride reports forums. It is almost as if there is a small group of people on this site who live to confront people using the safety of the internet and stir things up. Not so much the traditional "Internet Bully" syndrome but something akin to it.

What I find ironic is that there is another BMW focused site that is more active, has a wider range of discussion and yet is more civil. Makes one go Hmmm. In terms of offensive content, I am not a prude but I don't get the need to allow it on all forums. ADV has it in Jo Momma and you know what, I don't go there. I do hit other parts of that site though.

I wish I had some constructive criticism to add to help solve this but I don't. The combination of pot-stirrers and sensistive people make it a tough one to solve. If I have any brilliant thoughts on the solution, I'll be sure to post it. Don't hold your breath.

[KGT1200]

I am an MOA member and lurk on this site several times a week. I am also a member in a couple of other BMW focused forums as well as lurk on the ADV site. I post sporadically on this and other sites really only when I have something to add or have a technical question.

You know I am always amazed at the amount of whining that happens on this site. I am almost to the point where I will skip the Clubhouse and Campfire forums and focus only on the technical and ride reports forums. It is almost as if there is a small group of people on this site who live to confront people using the safety of the internet and stir things up. Not so much the traditional "Internet Bully" syndrome but something akin to it.

What I find ironic is that there is another BMW focused site that is more active, has a wider range of discussion and yet is more civil. Makes one go Hmmm. In terms of offensive content, I am not a prude but I don't get the need to allow it on all forums. ADV has it in Jo Momma and you know what, I don't go there. I do hit other parts of that site though.

I wish I had some constructive criticism to add to help solve this but I don't. The combination of pot-stirrers and sensistive people make it a tough one to solve. If I have any brilliant thoughts on the solution, I'll be sure to post it. Don't hold your breath.

Sorry if my lame ass attempt at humor offended your sensibilites "rocks for brains" . I guess I should learn to be more serious, maybe start wearing a plastic pen protector in my breast pocket....I'm just poking fun at club members, myself, and cutting loose on a Sunday morning.

What I don't get is how people can be so damn serious over a froum on the internet. I wish everyone would lighten up from JK to the mods to "Rocks for Brains"..

My solution? #1. dont read it if it offends you #2 Lighten up for goodness sake!

It's ALL small stuff

[RocksforBrains]

Redclfco, I wasn't making the comment in regards to your posts. So sorry if it looked like I was piling on you because my post came after one of yours. That was not my intent.

What I was trying to get across is that in the nearly two years I have been a member of this board, I have noticed an ongoing series of threads that are basically complaintfests. I don't seem to run into those types of threads on other sites. And I can't explain why. Maybe since this site is tied to a dues paying membership it results in different expectations and therefore behaviors. I am not smart enough to figure out the reasons why and then suggest solutions. I will add that I still enjoy this site and will not be taking my marbles and going home.:) And I can agree that I and others need to take ourselves a bit less seriously.

[KGT1200]

Redclfco, I wasn't making the comment in regards to your posts. So sorry if it looked like I was piling on you because my post came after one of yours. That was not my intent.

What I was trying to get across is that in the nearly two years I have been a member of this board, I have noticed an ongoing series of threads that are basically complaintfests. I don't seem to run into those types of threads on other sites. And I can't explain why. Maybe since this site is tied to a dues paying membership it results in different expectations and therefore behaviors. I am not smart enough to figure out the reasons why and then suggest solutions. I will add that I still enjoy this site and will not be taking my marbles and going home.:) And I can agree that I and others need to take ourselves a bit less seriously.

Thanks RFB; I was truly trying to just lighten things up, so I'm glad we actually communicated here. In particular, the Tavern was thought up as a solution was presented in a format that was suggested by the Forum leaders; yet almost 7 months later, here we set. No news, not projected date, but in a promising fashion, no decline either.

With the demise of JK, it's like another battle was fought, and everyone lost. IMO, JK brought a huge depth to this forum, but because his opinions glowed as bright as Rudolph's nose" he sparked the ire of many, and a debate began that sent it to the dog house. If he was hidden away in the "room where no one should go" we still could be reading his messages of doom and gloom to this day.

My response was silly stuff with a hidden meaning. I do not mean to appear to be a troll, nor do I want to offend.

Red

[crazydrummerdude]

to include

Young Riders

So some of the

Old Men

Decided to put forth an

idea

to create a virtual

Tavern

to discuss new ideas, world politics, current affairs, religion (gasp) and other ideas
that may be of interest to both

young

and young of mind!

Now, I don't speak for all younger riders.. but I can (almost) guarantee you that young riders don't give two sh... about a bunch of grumpy old men arguing about handguns, or abortions, or Obama.

I am unlike most young riders I know, but I will give a more accurate hypothesis of something they'd like to see on the website. Flashy things. High res pictures everywhere. DEPTH. Apart from the forum, the MOA website feels like an empty shell. There really isn't much to do here, other than whine on the forums. Of the forums I'm on, I'd say the most popular sections for younger members are the technical ones. Most "kids" do want to work on their bike. They don't want to see threads and threads where members whine about a girls stomach in an ad, or some big conspiracy within the MOA echelons (whatever happened to those threads?), or some other whine fest where someone got PM'ed from a moderator.

..

On the topic at hand:

JK is right that sex sells. JK is right that younger people (and (almost) EVERYONE) likes sex. JK was wrong that he'd fit in with a younger crowd (God, I would pay to see that!). JK is wrong about what "most major univiersities" are like. JK was wrong in thinking that we cared about his (how shall you call it?) self-fluffing. JK was wrong about probably most of the members of the MOA.

..

I don't know. This isn't focused enough. I'm going to go get something to eat, and I might edit this post.

[KGT1200]

Now, I don't speak for all younger riders.. but I can (almost) guarantee you that young riders don't give two sh... about a bunch of grumpy old men arguing about handguns, or abortions, or Obama.

I am unlike most young riders I know, but I will give a more accurate hypothesis of something they'd like to see on the website. Flashy things. High res pictures everywhere. DEPTH. Apart from the forum, the MOA website feels like an empty shell. There really isn't much to do here, other than whine on the forums. Of the forums I'm on, I'd say the most popular sections for younger members are the technical ones. Most "kids" do want to work on their bike. They don't want to see threads and threads where members whine about a girls stomach in an ad, or some big conspiracy within the MOA echelons (whatever happened to those threads?), or some other whine fest where someone got PM'ed from a moderator.

..

On the topic at hand:

JK is right that sex sells. JK is right that younger people (and (almost) EVERYONE) likes sex. JK was wrong that he'd fit in with a younger crowd (God, I would pay to see that!). JK is wrong about what "most major univiersities" are like. JK was wrong in thinking that we cared about his (how shall you call it?) self-fluffing. JK was wrong about probably most of the members of the MOA.

..

I don't know. This isn't focused enough. I'm going to go get something to eat, and I might edit this post.

CDD,

There are many of us that are not old as dirt but not young as brad pit type of guys who are young as we feel, but from the outside looking in are old; we too are bored to shi# with discussions of some damn ad with a girls stomach, yet are light years beyond drooling at hi rez photos of girls in thongs...been there done that for real so pics of it don’t mean jack sh#$ to me.

Conversely, there are many young people who have an intellectual bone in their heads who like world politic and debates of fact, like discussions surrounding everything from word economy to gun control to out and out and out slapstick humor not found on the "young head banger" sites. There is a depth to the people of this generation that can spawn insight terribly lacking in many of the younger generation today. Reconising that fact is the first step of enlightenment, and I have met many of the motorcycle subculture who do have that insight and intellect who are under the norm age of the BMWMOA.

There are many of those "young people" who have a "mature" sense of humor and a better rounded sense eroticism that transcends drooling over a virtual penthouse article or picture, and seek a more intellectual outlet for this subset of their personality by creating a place on the forum (I mean the frikken Tavern)where people can take discussions well beyond a scorpion add or BMW conspiracy theory will attract those of younger minds to this area to expand-not limit just exactly what can be discussed.


I too may modify this post at a later time....I usually do... and did! Have a great day

[Visian]

JK is right that sex sells. JK is right that younger people (and (almost) EVERYONE) likes sex.

...

JK was wrong about probably most of the members of the MOA.

... there are many young people who have an intellectual bone in their heads who like world politic and debates of fact, like discussions surrounding everything from word economy to gun control to out and out and out slapstick humor not found on the "young head banger" sites.

two clear points.

sure sex sells, but does it sell what people want to buy from us?

personally, and after talking with a LOT of the younger people i meet at rallies and on the road, they are not attracted to bmw motorcycles and then to the MOA because we offer a steady diet of thongs, bulging leather-clad biceps and assless chaps.

they're typically a "thinking rider" who enjoys having a good time and are sincerely interested in improving their riding skills.

ian

(well, inflatable dolls do have a certain appeal after a certain hour and a number of beers) :ha

[snoone]

A little extreme. Don't you think? Reminds me of the The republicans who always present their extreme views of the evil democrats.. Spend , spend, spend, socialism and left wing peaceniks that won't defend your country. Even so there is always a middle ground that is reached. Everything inclusive and in moderation is the key. I think that's the smart approach...

[PAULBACH]

two clear points.

sure sex sells, but does it sell what people want to buy from us?

personally, and after talking with a LOT of the younger people i meet at rallies and on the road, they are not attracted to bmw motorcycles and then to the MOA because we offer a steady diet of thongs, bulging leather-clad biceps and assless chaps.

they're typically a "thinking rider" who enjoys having a good time and are sincerely interested in improving their riding skills.

ian

(well, inflatable dolls do have a certain appeal after a certain hour and a number of beers) :ha

If they are thinking riders then they are not going to be lured by the Scorpion ad.

personally, and after talking with a LOT of the younger people i meet at rallies and on the road, they are not attracted to bmw motorcycles and then to the MOA because we offer a steady diet of thongs, bulging leather-clad biceps and assless chaps.

Are you certain this is the same MOA that gets in a snit by PG13 ads?

[Mika]

November 24 and I am waiting for the next issue of ON to find out if there is another Scorpion ad and what that installment of their advertising series brings for a variety of reasons.

:lurk

[crazydrummerdude]

two clear points.

sure sex sells, but does it sell what people want to buy from us?

personally, and after talking with a LOT of the younger people i meet at rallies and on the road, they are not attracted to bmw motorcycles and then to the MOA because we offer a steady diet of thongs, bulging leather-clad biceps and assless chaps.

they're typically a "thinking rider" who enjoys having a good time and are sincerely interested in improving their riding skills.

ian

(well, inflatable dolls do have a certain appeal after a certain hour and a number of beers) :ha

Woops. Didn't want to make it seem like the MOA had to resort to sexual imagery to sell anything. I was just giving JK credit on stating the obvious.

I was thinking a little more about how the MOA could rope in some youngsters. Maybe offer to new members (of the Camp Gears age) to cover part of the MSF BRC cost with their new MOA membership. Or set up a user-submitted photo gallery outside of the forums. Or have a section of the website with little games to "improve reaction time" or "improve awareness," or tutorials on how to set up their own practice courses in parking lots, or a non-anonymous way to find other BMW riders in the area. Or whatever.

Woops, again. This thread is about JK. I got off topic.

[108625]

November 24 and I am waiting for the next issue of ON to find out if there is another Scorpion ad and what that installment of their advertising series brings for a variety of reasons.:lurk

Mika,

Getting off topic again, what happened to your "Daily reads"?
They were about the most informative, daily updated threads here.

Bob

[BubbaZanetti]

Woops. Didn't want to make it seem like the MOA had to resort to sexual imagery to sell anything. I was just giving JK credit on stating the obvious.

I was thinking a little more about how the MOA could rope in some youngsters. Maybe offer to new members (of the Camp Gears age) to cover part of the MSF BRC cost with their new MOA membership. Or set up a user-submitted photo gallery outside of the forums. Or have a section of the website with little games to "improve reaction time" or "improve awareness," or tutorials on how to set up their own practice courses in parking lots, or a non-anonymous way to find other BMW riders in the area. Or whatever.

Woops, again. This thread is about JK. I got off topic.

sound like you have some ideas man, a little more formality could go a long way in seeing some of them implemented, heck i actually got an ipod dj'ing station going at one national. you can ask kbasa how it went over.:laugh

as has been said by a million cranky old men a million times and as repeated by this youthful hip feller:

get involved


and as was noted, some young people do enjoy being engaged intellectually, and not just blasted with 30 different frames a second of EXXXTTEEEMMEE video and stunts and speed and sex. my post count on ADV reveals that i spend about .01 percent of my time there discussing motorcycles, the rest is "intelligent" political discussion and then massive amounts of "fluff", i enjoy making threads about things being too brightly colored, packing peanuts, suvs and my favorite "stupid blankety-blank people say to you at the gas station". never take this stuff too seriously.

[henzilla]

Woops, again. This thread is about JK. I got off topic.

:laugh :laugh :laugh this thread hasn't been about jk for some time...oughta change the name or when he peeks, he will get a big head...oooops.already has one

[KGT1200]

sound like you have some ideas man, a little more formality could go a long way in seeing some of them implemented, heck i actually got an ipod dj'ing station going at one national. you can ask kbasa how it went over.:laugh

as has been said by a million cranky old men a million times and as repeated by this youthful hip feller:

get involved


and as was noted, some young people do enjoy being engaged intellectually, and not just blasted with 30 different frames a second of EXXXTTEEEMMEE video and stunts and speed and sex. my post count on ADV reveals that i spend about .01 percent of my time there discussing motorcycles, the rest is "intelligent" political discussion and then massive amounts of "fluff", i enjoy making threads about things being too brightly colored, packing peanuts, suvs and my favorite "stupid blankety-blank people say to you at the gas station". never take this stuff too seriously.



My 14 yr old, who went to Leo's South (MN bike dealer) with me on Saturday. He kept very busy when I was back wheeling dealing on a bike. He spent the entire time setting on the new 650 GS, then setting on the Moto Guzzi, then back over to the 650....taking pictures on his phone, talking to his other biker buddies on the phone. We chatted all the way home on pricing, on the used weestrom I was looking at, and discussing our future ride around Lake Superior. He's hooked on good machinry. He's hooked on touring, and touring machines. He's hooked on the same pursiuts as his old man, along with three other frineds of his. He is the next generation of civilized riders.

ALL of them are attending the international show at myy treat (then guess who IS NOT going to have a booth there,duh?) and all these boys are ATGATT boys, all these boys ride to ride, not ride for the look (well, maybe a little bit) but all think squids are just plian stupid..And it's my fault!

This group is the next generation, gentlemen! My son at 14 went with me to the Dells Rally last year, and is going to attend this year; maybe bring a friend. The age of influence is his age or earlier to groom the next BMW riders.

If each of us would count the impact we have had on many of these kids and reach out to that generation, that would go three times as far as anything else we could do!

[Mika]

Mika,

Getting off topic again, what happened to your "Daily reads"?
They were about the most informative, daily updated threads here.

Bob

They are on break. I am working on some other projects. My posts are limited to the kibitzing kind for now.
:ha

[BubbaZanetti]

If each of us would count the impact we have had on many of these kids and reach out to that generation, that would go three times as far as anything else we could do!

the kids are alright.........:thumb

[adamceckhardt]

as has been said by a million cranky old men a million times and as repeated by this youthful hip feller:

get involved



I've had several ideas for the club, and each time sent emails to high up members, people on the board, etc. ONE time I got a reply, and when I replied to that with further clarification, got absolutely nothing in reply, so I sent a follow up a week later. Still nothing, and it's been a year or so.

Maybe the only thing to do is run for the board?

[r11rs94]

Maybe the only thing to do is run for the board?[/QUOTE]




:laugh You the same age as my son, :twirl and he knows everything. So I guess I can vote for you if you run. :gerg

[adamceckhardt]

Maybe the only thing to do is run for the board?




:laugh You the same age as my son, :twirl and he knows everything. So I guess I can vote for you if you run. :gerg[/QUOTE]

never said that I know everything. :dunno

[BeemerMike]

:laugh :laugh :laugh this thread hasn't been about jk for some time...

Funny how that works . . . ;)

[The_Veg]

Maybe the only thing to do is run for the board?

The next election is in 2010, but that means that you have about a year to get your candidate materials ready to submit (PM me if you'd like to know more about the process). I think two Director positions will be up for grabs; I have no idea whether or not any of the incumbents will run for re-election. I think Prez will also be up for election, if you feel ambitious.
Seriously though, this Board stuff ain't so bad. If I can do the job, dang near anybody else probably can too. :thumb

Ben Lower
Birector