BMW Final Drive Failure Form

[Pparker1024]

Recently, while at a local coffee shop, a fellow rider brought in the current issue of Motorcycle Consumers News (?) or Guide. There was a article talking about the issue of BMW final drive failures. I found it to be a very interesting article, and few covering the topic and having a place to log your own failure into a database. The piece even mentioned that BMWMOA chose to not be an advocate for their members and noted simply that it was a community forum for it's members - a claim that I felt was pretty lame for MOA.

That said, I found this site to log your own failures if you had one.

BMW Final Drive Failure Website
http://www.bmwfinaldrive.com/index.html

BMW Final Drive Failure FORM
http://www.bmwfinaldrive.com/fd_failure_entry.php

BMW Final Drive Failure List
http://www.bmwfinaldrive.com/fd_failure_list.php

Regards,

Phil

[mrich12000]

I had no idea the problem was that extensive. Glad I have my K75

[KCKBMOA]

I posted that awhile back, and now the same article has been reprinted and added to in the new BMW ON, (Owners News), magazine. The MC Consumer News is harder to find, and most riders have easier access to the ON. The info is very interesting, and a bit disturbing of course. I for one am amazed that BMW will let this issue go on unchecked, since it seriously affects their reputation. Some kind of retro-fit fix would certainly be logical, even as an option at owner's expense. Of course, in today's world, companys are afraid to open the door to law suits by admitting anything. Tort Law has ruined the concept of doing the right thing in many cases. Anyhow, the article is a very good history of the issue, and it's worth finding a copy to read. :blah KC

[rocketman]

Recently, while at a local coffee shop, a fellow rider brought in the current issue of Motorcycle Consumers News (?) or Guide. There was a article talking about the issue of BMW final drive failures. I found it to be a very interesting article, and few covering the topic and having a place to log your own failure into a database. The piece even mentioned that BMWMOA chose to not be an advocate for their members and noted simply that it was a community forum for it's members - a claim that I felt was pretty lame for MOA.

That said, I found this site to log your own failures if you had one.

BMW Final Drive Failure Website
http://www.bmwfinaldrive.com/index.html

BMW Final Drive Failure FORM
http://www.bmwfinaldrive.com/fd_failure_entry.php

BMW Final Drive Failure List
http://www.bmwfinaldrive.com/fd_failure_list.php

Regards,

Phil

Do a search for MCN and you will find this topic has been pretty much beaten to death already on the MOA forums.

RM

[dzimbric]

Do a search for MCN and you will find this topic has been pretty much beaten to death already on the MOA forums.

RM

151 drives out of ?????

That is UNACCEPTABLE

Ok guess I will unmmm uhh go and ahh :lurk

[Beemer01]

The early K final drives seemingly last forever... at least I've not heard of statistically high failures.

Wonder why they changed a pretty bullet proof design? Is it related to the newer paralever suspension?

[cjack]

The early K final drives seemingly last forever... at least I've not heard of statistically high failures.

Wonder why they changed a pretty bullet proof design? Is it related to the newer paralever suspension?

The design was the same from 1985 thru 2009 (the 12Lt). What changed was probably the load on the drive and the quality control. My guess.

The new drives which came out in 2005 (for everything except the 12LT with a final drive) are in fact a major design change.

One thing though on the new drives, my local dealer had maybe two loose spline hubs and a couple of leaky seals. No bearing failures...in four model years.

[breyfogle]

The design was the same from 1985 thru 2009 (the 12Lt). What changed was probably the load on the drive and the quality control.....

It would be interesting to know if BMW began sub-contracting parts like FD's to former Eastern Germany suppliers before they were fully up to speed with western style quality control .

[eljeffe]

You can see mostly LT-specific failures here:

http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/survey.php?&do=results&sid=28

MOA ON and MCN have only confirmed what the LT guys have known for years. The weak link in BMWs since 1998 is the rear drive.

[4117]

I have been riding beemers since 1973 when i bought a new r60/5, then i bought a r100/7 and then my 2002 k1200lt. my old r bikes were bullet proof. they never once left me along side the road boke down. i cant say the same for my very expensive k1200. i had the final drive go out and had to have a harley riding buddy pick me up with his pickup and trailor :-(. my bike only had 26k on it when the drive failed. bmw knows they have a problem. i will be buying another bike soon. hummmm Honda, guzzi will be my options this time.

[BMWon2]

Above someone said this subject has been beaten to death already.
It amazes me that everyone isn't screaming from the hillsides about this. A company like BMW obviously misengineers the backbone of a majority of their productline leaving their customers and supporters standed. The fact that this has been going on over 10 years now is crazy. The fact that they continue to spend time on new projects instead of first fixing something so major, is insulting.
And for ON not to have an artical every month about this to embarrass them into addressing the issue publicly is a failiure as a representative to the BMW Owners Of America.
Add my 2007R1200GSA to the Final Drive failiure list. 16,000+ miles. To think I had the nerve to expect an $18,000 dollar purchase should give me more trouble free mileage. Not to mention the 2 failed ring sensors that I had to deal with.

Beaten to death? I don't think so!!!!

[Acejones]

One of the problems with BMWMOA is that it just isn't as independent as it needs to be.

[BMWon2]

Hey BMWMOA, maybe instead of endless articles about your National Rally, you should be looking into how many bikes failed getting there.
One of the worse things about this to me is, everyone riding these bikes is worried. Will it happen to me? We want to be safe, feel safe, feel proud, feel like we're on the best bike out there, but we're all worried.
I was almost relieved when it happened. But after reading how some guys have had it happen twice, I'm back to worrying.
So hope the rally was fun. Thanks for the support.
Now I know how Arizona feels.

[217don]

I agree with several of the previous posts (especially BMWon2 and Acejones) regarding BMWMOA's inaction. I also think MOA should be our champion with BMW NA about this issue. I belong to a small chartered club (maybe 25 BMW riders) and we have seen three FD failures in our membership that I know of - there could be more. I have a 2003 RT that has had its share of mechanical issues despite expensive, regular dealer maintenance but not FD failure - at least not yet. BMW's response to my complaints was polite disinterest. In the latest BMWON there is a long interview with the guy who runs the motorcycle division in the states and instead of addressing issues such as reliability or why BMW doesn't even advertise in our magazine, the ON asks about his childhood in South Africa!!! Aargh. OUR organization should be representing OUR interests, not BMWs. Sometimes they coincide and sometimes they do not.
I also wonder if the leadership of MOA and of BMW ever read these fori (forums?)

[Acejones]

It would be real difficult for anyone to convince me to buy a new BMW. I read about FD failures and the "new" 800 series seem to have all kinds of diverse problems.

[PeoriaMac]

This is exactly why people buy Harleys. They know they'll go for hundreds of thousands of miles and not need repair work.

Mac

[Acejones]

Wouldn't buy a Harley either.

[BMWon2]

:scratchBMW's response to my complaints was polite disinterest. In the latest BMWON there is a long interview with the guy who runs the motorcycle division in the states and instead of addressing issues such as reliability or why BMW doesn't even advertise in our magazine, the ON asks about his childhood in South Africa!!! Aargh. OUR organization should be representing OUR interests, not BMWs. Sometimes they coincide and sometimes they do not.


I think the question "Was your mother a homemaker?" was peticularly hard hitting. Really put the guy on the spot about what really matters.

Hey MOA, I'm from NJ. I'd be happy to sit with this guy and question him like we all want him to be questioned if youre afraid to do it!!!

Was you're mother a homemaker!!!!!! Please!!!!:scratch

[SIBUD]

I agree with several of the previous posts (especially BMWon2 and Acejones) regarding BMWMOA's inaction. I also think MOA should be our champion with BMW NA about this issue. I belong to a small chartered club (maybe 25 BMW riders) and we have seen three FD failures in our membership that I know of - there could be more. I have a 2003 RT that has had its share of mechanical issues despite expensive, regular dealer maintenance but not FD failure - at least not yet. BMW's response to my complaints was polite disinterest. In the latest BMWON there is a long interview with the guy who runs the motorcycle division in the states and instead of addressing issues such as reliability or why BMW doesn't even advertise in our magazine, the ON asks about his childhood in South Africa!!! Aargh. OUR organization should be representing OUR interests, not BMWs. Sometimes they coincide and sometimes they do not.
I also wonder if the leadership of MOA and of BMW ever read these fori (forums?)

Both the leadership of MOA and BMW read this forum.

Current and former Boards of Directors have taken the position that BMW MOA is not an advocacy organization. Seems like the majority of members agree, since there was very little interest in running for a BOD or Officer seat during recent elections. Voter apathy usually indicates the members are satisfied with the status quo.

Personal observation only, not an official statement in any way.

[BuddingGeezer]

Both the leadership of MOA and BMW read this forum.

Current and former Boards of Directors have taken the position that BMW MOA is not an advocacy organization.

I no longer have a BMW, so I got no dog in this hunt, but I did pay my $40 last January and I do love to stir the pot.

August 2010 ON on page 46 in the Pieter deWall article concerning how to get younger riders to buy BMWs,

"In the first place it is not about the product, but the lifestyle. That world we call the 'World of BMW'. It compromises or off road academies, track schools, tour offerings, etc. The MOA could and should play a major role here. That's precisely why we have started discussions with the MOA Executive."



It appears to me that the BOD may become an advocacy organization to help BMW sell their bikes just not an advocacy organization to fix them when the final drives break.:scratch

Ralph Sims

[Harrington]

It looks like my FD has lasted longer than the failure list.:dance

[roy]

From my feeble memory Paul Glaves wrote an article in his "Bench Wrenching" series in the ON about this.

The main problem is NOT a design flaw but an assembly flaw. The bearing preload is to high and this causes the ball bearing to fail. IF this was a design issue there would be a lot more than the estimated 4% of the bikes having failures. Failures would also be higher from people riding 2-up, pulling trailers, etc.

On a side note, does anyone of these statistics track how many of the failures where second or third failures on the same bike because the owner or dealer just replaced the failed bearing and did NOT check the bearing preload. Talk on the LT site is this is also a very large number.

Yes BMW has problems, doesn't HD, Honda, Yamaha, etc.. Difference may be that the Japanese will admit they have a problem, German pride won't.

Roy

[Acejones]

Maybe a little different, but regarding the Japanese admitting a problem; it sure took Toyota several years to fess up and then there was a lot of denial. As to the Germans; they'll never admit a fault. I just retired from a Swiss company and they had the same characteristic.

[deilenberger]

From my feeble memory Paul Glaves wrote an article in his "Bench Wrenching" series in the ON about this.

The main problem is NOT a design flaw but an assembly flaw. The bearing preload is to high and this causes the ball bearing to fail. IF this was a design issue there would be a lot more than the estimated 4% of the bikes having failures. Failures would also be higher from people riding 2-up, pulling trailers, etc.

Roy

Roy - this depends on which rear drive you're talking about.

- Airhead drives - the wheel/hub splines went bad. Pretty much a matter of time. Businesses sprang up to rebuild these splines.

- Klassic-K bikes with monolever drive - the input shaft splines go bad (that's just a matter of time, you can slow it down, but due to the design geometry you can't prevent it..) The same businesses who rebuilt airhead splines now rebuild klassic-k splines.

- Oilheads and later K bikes - these are the ones you're discussing. This was an assembly problem, causing the bearings to gall and fail. There are a few noteable rebuilders who have a very good reputation for an almost non-existent return failure rate - meaning it can be done right, just the factory (actually Getrag I believe) didn't bother.

- Hexheads and current K bikes - these were primarily an environmental problem with the "lifetime lubrication".. once BMW went to a 600 mile change of the fluid, the number of drives failing precipitously dropped. They also adopted a 12k service interval for the drive fluid, and this also seems to be helping. It's actually rather rare to hear of one failing now, expecially the ones made since 2007 when the 600 mile service was introduced. FWIW - these do not have a "preload" bearing design. One end of the hub is supported in a needle bearing (allowing axial movement) - the other end in an externally mounted and sealed ball bearing.

So - it all depends on what'cha talking about. And not much new under the sun. Peter Nettersheim discussed rear drive problems with pre-war bikes at one time.

[217don]

Well, just because earlier bikes had issues does not excuse final drive failures at low mileages or inane interviews with executives who may be in a position to do something about it. Next time there is a survey, why doesn't the BMW leadership ask if the members would like MOA to advocate for them with BMW on issues such as premature mechanical failures or other important issues?

[cjack]

As to the latest drives, it seemed to me that the early failures were seal problems mostly, loose splines on the wheel carrier, and some input needle bearing failures.
The change in the drain interval, may have resulted from some form of the seal failures and maybe the input bearing issues. The loose splines had to be a QC issue as well as some of the seal failures (seal lip turned over or some such thing...very early). In addition to the drain interval changes, the fluid quantity was changed too. This had to do with possibly increased pressure in the drive causing a wear mark on the surface where the seal rides.
There have been some big bearing failures...this bearing is a sealed bearing and does not reside inside the drive any longer and does not share the oil bath.
While the drive failures get the most press, I am more concerned with the random timing chain failures. Mostly on the transverse K1200 but then the K1300 is newer and lower mileage. I am concerned when a couple of my personal riding friends have had the failure. I notice that the new S1000RR and the K1600 have a different cam change arrangement. There is also a new chain guard for the K1300 and I guess the K1200 bikes which helps to prevent the chain from jumping a tooth.
While a major engine failure is not considered safety related, I am dissapointed if BMW doesn't step right up in the case of a chain failure in or out of warranty.

I do remember an interview in the ON with a high ranking BMW individual, and while his personal story is interesting, I couldn't get the quality control issues out of my mind when I was reading. I don't think a direct question about cam chains or final drives would ever get answered nor is it in good taste to publish that sort of a confrontation, but I wish I didn't have to think about it at all.


BMW is still the best...I think...

[cjack]

As to the latest drives, it seemed to me that the early failures were seal problems mostly, loose splines on the wheel carrier, and some input needle bearing failures.
The change in the drain interval, may have resulted from some form of the seal failures and maybe the input bearing issues. The loose splines had to be a QC issue as well as some of the seal failures (seal lip turned over or some such thing...very early). In addition to the drain interval changes, the fluid quantity was changed too. This had to do with possibly increased pressure in the drive causing a wear mark on the surface where the seal rides.
There have been some big bearing failures...this bearing is a sealed bearing and does not reside inside the drive any longer and does not share the oil bath.
While the drive failures get the most press, I am more concerned with the random timing chain failures. Mostly on the transverse K1200 but then the K1300 is newer and lower mileage. I am concerned when a couple of my personal riding friends have had the failure. I notice that the new S1000RR and the K1600 have a different cam change arrangement. There is also a new chain guard for the K1300 and I guess the K1200 bikes which helps to prevent the chain from jumping a tooth.
While a major engine failure is not considered safety related, I am disappointed if BMW doesn't step right up in the case of a chain failure in or out of warranty.

I do remember an interview in the ON with a high ranking BMW individual, and while his personal story is interesting, I couldn't get the quality control issues out of my mind when I was reading. I don't think a direct question about cam chains or final drives would ever get answered nor is it in good taste to publish that sort of a confrontation, but I wish I didn't have to think about it at all.


BMW is still the best...I think...