Awaiting announcement of the forum administrator.

[SIBUD]

Understand there was an announcement made in open session at the last BOD meeting.

[PGlaves]

Well - if it was made in open session then it is public info - so -

What did you hear?

[SIBUD]

Well - if it was made in open session then it is public info - so -

What did you hear?

I wasn't there so I didn't hear anything.

But I understood an announcement was made and I would hope that there would be some mention on the forum by those in charge.

[DarrylRi]

:ear

[mrich12000]

:drink :scratch :scratch :dunno :drink :drink :drink :drink :ear :ear

[Motor31]

I wasn't there so I didn't hear anything.

But I understood an announcement was made and I would hope that there would be some mention on the forum by those in charge.

You ARE an optimist aren't you. They don't have time to deal with posting on the forum, remember? :stick :whistle

[SIBUD]

You ARE an optimist aren't you. They don't have time to deal with posting on the forum, remember? :stick :whistle

I'm still an optimist and perhaps spoke out of turn.

We will see.

In spite of everything, I remain optimistic about the forum and the MOA.

This organization is poised for greater things and I'm glad to be a member while changes take place. The two recently held events are a sign that the organization is headed in a new direction.

I worked for a very wise person once who tried to help me, early in my career, to put things in perspective. I would complain to him (he was my boss) about all of the things going wrong or that needed fixing. He would always reply "It is just a bump in the road." Most of the time he was right.

After all, this is supposed to be fun.

[jdmetzger]

:ear

Something you want to tell us, Darryl, or something you don't yet know? :heh

I wasn't there so I didn't hear anything.

But I understood an announcement was made and I would hope that there would be some mention on the forum by those in charge.

I saw something interesting in this post (http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showpost.php?p=383235&postcount=11) from the Poobah. Two names were mentioned... found it interesting and it may relate to this question.

[username]

i'll talk to the poobah and see who is supposed to announce darryl as admin. oh wait. crap. the light is low in this room... where is the delete key? wait, is submit highlighted? errrr.....

[KGT1200]

And then the shadow passed over from above, and then I realized it was sad, but true...

Pigs don't fly! what was that flying object in the sky?


I was waiting for some real news, like maybe Motor 31 was given back his sig line, or the TAVERN was about to take flight...

Oh well. I will continue to exist here; so be it in the shadows!

oh...Congrats Darryl ! thaks for taking it on.:thumb

Red

[jdmetzger]

HA! My careful reading strikes again! Mwuhahahahahahaha!

Oh, and welcome to your new position, Darryl! :wave

[DarrylRi]

Thanks very much for the welcome. I hope we can achieve many of the goals you would all like to see here. I know there are a couple things in the pipeline right now, mostly awaiting me having enough concentrated time to get them right for announcement.

[GregFeeler]

You ARE an optimist aren't you. They don't have time to deal with posting on the forum, remember? :stick :whistle

I would just like to point out that if a Board member made a comment like this about anyone else on this forum he or she would be accused of badgering or demeaning a member. I think we'd all do better to keep such "clever" comments to ourselves and out of our posts.

There is a expectation here - at least by some - that it's the *responsibly* of someone in the organization to post any and every detail when something happens in real time. If "we" don't meet those expectations then we're fair game for attacks and reckless accusations. This thread was started on the 27th. I know that I spent all day Sunday traveling back from the Board meeting and didn't get home until 6:45pm local time. I worked all day Monday and have been sick with a cold since then.

What is announced in Open Session at a Board meeting is public information and can be passed along by anyone. I fully support getting information out quickly and Darrel's appointment is very good news. It's just not the job of anyone on the Board to report here about it. When Dave asked how many people at the meeting used the forum, about twenty people raised their hands. :stick

[tommcgee]

When Dave asked how many people at the meeting used the forum, about twenty people raised their hands. :stick

So we have two BMW MOAs. :scratch

[GregFeeler]

So we have two BMW MOAs. :scratch

Meaning what? :scratch

[Statdawg]

There is a expectation here - at least by some - that it's the *responsibly* of someone in the organization to post any and every detail when something happens in real time. If "we" don't meet those expectations then we're fair game for attacks and reckless accusations. This thread was started on the 27th. I know that I spent all day Sunday traveling back from the Board meeting and didn't get home until 6:45pm local time. I worked all day Monday and have been sick with a cold since then.


What post was this interrupted from ? The real time comment may have been from mine implying as a possibility that members input comments and information into BoD projects being worked on instead of finding out about them later in ON and commenting after the facts. What other word should I use besides real time ? In a timely manner, within a given amount of time, or an approved time period ? What is less threatening to the requestee ? If we wait too long then it is past practice or history isn't it ?

Reckless attacks and accusations then and now should be handled by forum moderation rule enforcement. Again the mods inability to enforce the rules is not the members fault the same can be said for the bylaws.

[rocketman]

I would just like to point out that if a Board member made a comment like this about anyone else on this forum he or she would be accused of badgering or demeaning a member. I think we'd all do better to keep such "clever" comments to ourselves and out of our posts.


:thumb


What is announced in Open Session at a Board meeting is public information and can be passed along by anyone. I fully support getting information out quickly and Darrel's appointment is very good news. It's just not the job of anyone on the Board to report here about it. When Dave asked how many people at the meeting used the forum, about twenty people raised their hands. :stick

Which leads to something I have been thinking about as folks discuss how the forum can better serve to disseminate information to the membership. In order for this to be realized it would require that the majority of members read the boards, which I suspect from looking at the data on those viewing them, is not the case and that the majority of members do NOT use them so the impact (as a means of contacting the membership) is limited by that. This is not say it can not be useful for “getting the word out", but it must be taken into account as to what percentage is actually being reached and should be only one but one of several means, rather than the end all and be all some may view it as.

RM

[GregFeeler]

What post was this interrupted from ? The real time comment may have been from mine implying as a possibility that members input comments and information into BoD projects being worked on instead of finding out about them later in ON and commenting after the facts. What other word should I use besides real time ? In a timely manner, within a given amount of time, or an approved time period ? What is less threatening to the requestee ? If we wait too long then it is past practice or history isn't it ?

Reckless attacks and accusations then and now should be handled by forum moderation rule enforcement. Again the mods inability to enforce the rules is not the members fault the same can be said for the bylaws.

My remarks were directed at Motor31's comment about Board members being too busy to post information on the forum.

As for "attacks" - there should be a level of respect among us here. Comments like in Motor31's post create an atmosphere of disrepect. That attitude isn't an moderation issue - it's just a matter of manors, and whether you are talking about issues, or just getting personal.

[kbasa]

Man.

Does every thread have to turn into a wrestling match?

[Mika]

Yes.

When ever two show up to wrestle. A fact of life not limited to threads on our forum.

[Oldhway]

:thumb



Which leads to something I have been thinking about as folks discuss how the forum can better serve to disseminate information to the membership. In order for this to be realized it would require that the majority of members read the boards, which I suspect from looking at the data on those viewing them, is not the case and that the majority of members do NOT use them so the impact (as a means of contacting the membership) is limited by that. This is not say it can not be useful for “getting the word out", but it must be taken into account as to what percentage is actually being reached and should be only one but one of several means, rather than the end all and be all some may view it as.

RM

A possible different way to look at that is perhaps if we made that type of posting a matter of course, and announced it in the ON as well, more members might come here to read it. Maybe that is the type of info folks would like to see here. The old "if you build it, they will come" idea. It could be a read only sticky in the Clubhouse section. Then if someone wanted to discuss it, they could start a separate thread.

I think as we look for ways to make the forum better, recognizing it's value as a straightforward communication tool is a possibility.

[Statdawg]

Man.

Does every thread have to turn into a wrestling match? :ha

Watch it we are playing bull in the ring here and its my turn. Ouch that is my tail.

[riderR1150GSAdv]

Just :lurk

[Oldhway]

My remarks were directed at Motor31's comment about Board members being too busy to post information on the forum.

As for "attacks" - there should be a level of respect among us here. Comments like in Motor31's post create an atmosphere of disrepect. That attitude isn't an moderation issue - it's just a matter of manors, and whether you are talking about issues, or just getting personal.

Greg, I absolutely agree, there is no place for attacks by anyone on this forum. As soon as the discussion goes there and it gets personal, the credibility of both sides is compromised and any possibility of resolving an issue becomes extremely remote.

That is why we should be moderating behavior and not content. Most of the possible content posted here is not what causes the problems. A lack of respect (on both sides) is causing the problems. It's the old argument, "guns don't kill people, people kill people.".

[GregFeeler]

Greg, I absolutely agree, there is no place for attacks by anyone on this forum. As soon as the discussion goes there and it gets personal, the credibility of both sides is compromised and any possibility of resolving an issue becomes extremely remote.

That is why we should be moderating behavior and not content. Most of the possible content posted here is not what causes the problems. A lack of respect (on both sides) is causing the problems. It's the old argument, "guns don't kill people, people kill people.".

I couldn't agree more.

[Oldhway]

Man.

Does every thread have to turn into a wrestling match?


No. But right now both sides of the arguments (and it has become polarized to having sides, and that's not good) have become hyper sensitive and are feeling attacked. Neither group feels like they are being listened to, and both groups to some degree are right.

Maybe it's time to stop discussing all the symptomatic stuff (this thread, the financials thread, etc) and look for the root problem.

Why is there a growing feeling of us vs them (Tom McGee's "are there 2MOAs?" question is an example) here in the forum and in the MOA at large?


I believe that is what needs to be addressed. Obviously there is a group of people who are feeling shut out of what goes on in the club, and there is also a group of hard working, well meaning volunteers who are feeling attacked.

Why?

[rocketman]

A possible different way to look at that is perhaps if we made that type of posting a matter of course, and announced it in the ON as well, more members might come here to read it. Maybe that is the type of info folks would like to see here. The old "if you build it, they will come" idea. It could be a read only sticky in the Clubhouse section. Then if someone wanted to discuss it, they could start a separate thread.

I think as we look for ways to make the forum better, recognizing it's value as a straightforward communication tool is a possibility.

I was not saying it had no value in fact quite the opposite, it most surely does have value. I was only commenting on the fact that its value must considered in terms of its current "coverage". While for many it is the preferred method of gathering information, there as still many others, and it would seem given the membership number of 40,000 compared to forum membership numbers, that it still lags behind print media. There are many who have not yet that level of comfort with this form of communication, and we need to consider those as well. in fact I think we are in agreement that it needs to be more fully utilized and your idea may well bring others here but let us not forget those that prefer print or face to face. My point was that we must arrive at a balanced approach.

RM

[Oldhway]

I was not saying it had no value in fact quite the opposite, it most surely does have value. I was only commenting on the fact that its value must considered in terms of its current "coverage". While for many it is the preferred method of gathering information, there as still many others, and it would seem given the membership number of 40,000 compared to forum membership numbers, that it still lags behind print media. There are many who have not yet that level of comfort with this form of communication, and we need to consider those as well. in fact I think we are in agreement that it needs to be more fully utilized and your idea may well bring others here but let us not forget those that prefer print or face to face. My point was that we must arrive at a balanced approach.

RM

Absolutely right. We have many great tools available and all can be useful.

[Rob Nye]

So we have two BMW MOAs. :scratch

Apparently there are some forum users who might feel that way.

They are wrong and if anything part of the problem if there even is one.

[rocketman]

Man.

Does every thread have to turn into a wrestling match?

Its human nature, with every new form of two way commutation there is a “learning curve” so to speak as to the formation of proper etiquette and because of the rate at which this medium has grown (i.e. the internet and information technology in general) I don’t think we, as a society have quite caught up to it yet. Never before has any communication medium spread so quickly and so far.
The other issue is one that has often been discussed; namely, simply being hidden behind an impersonal machine has insulated us from the emotional restrictions normally brought on by direct contact, its easier to shout insults from across the room where there is an easy escape route than to accuse from arms length. Even a large group tends to be more civil “in person” than what is often the case on the net. I do believe we will in time learn to be more civil and will arrive at that point where the same level of civility will exist within this medium as does in society in general, perhaps that is one of the roles that the new generation will come to define. It will certainly be a challenge! In the meantime we must simply persevere and exercise caution in how we conduct ourselves.

RM

[Oldhway]

Apparently there are some forum users who might feel that way.

They are wrong and if anything part of the problem if there even is one.

Actually Rob, I think in some ways, they are not wrong. For many members, especially newer members, this forum is the face ot the MOA. They don't know the club that grew without the internet. For others, the ON magazine is the face of the MOA, and for others, it is simply a BMW rider/MOA members they have met.

While there is only one BMWMOA in fact, there are at least 3 different perceptions of it that are somewhat disparate. And they appear to be having a problem understanding one another. And that is the root of the problem (who's existance is proven by this thread).

I don't think the question is who is right or wrong or at fault, the question is how to reconcile the groups.

That belief, I guess, makes me part of the problem.:blush

[Oldhway]

Its human nature, with every new form of two way commutation there is a “learning curve” so to speak as to the formation of proper etiquette and because of the rate at which this medium has grown (i.e. the internet and information technology in general) I don’t think we, as a society have quite caught up to it yet. Never before has any communication medium spread so quickly and so far.
The other issue is one that has often been discussed; namely, simply being hidden behind an impersonal machine has insulated us from the emotional restrictions normally brought on by direct contact, its easier to shout insults from across the room where there is an easy escape route than to accuse from arms length. Even a large group tends to be more civil “in person” than what is often the case on the net. I do believe we will in time learn to be more civil and will arrive at that point where the same level of civility will exist within this medium as does in society in general, perhaps that is one of the roles that the new generation will come to define. It will certainly be a challenge! In the meantime we must simply persevere and exercise caution in how we conduct ourselves.

RM


:bow

Grasshopper, where do you find such great wisdom?

Well said.

[rocketman]

:bow

Grasshopper, where do you find such great wisdom?

Well said.

Grasshopper? Grasshopper? Grasshopper???
Why you young whippersnapper (you ARE young right?) I ought to....


come over here and say that to my face...

no, wait you can't...we haven't perfected telleportation yet.....


never mind, as you were (or weren't as the case may be, maybe?:dunno)

RM

[KGT1200]

chips on shoulders
due to swept under the rug sig lines
lead to
boxing matches
flying electronic fists
seperating the dots and dashes and bits
with each swing
through the electronic air.

What a flurry of bitch slaps
of sucker punches
over nothing
other than real time
versus latent time
misunderstood time
wow

We all should go over to
jomama
we would fit right in

Just my opinion, I thought the thread was a welcome thread to our new admin guy
so I straightened up my tie and put on a freash suit'
which is hard to do when your
a cockroach!
I hope we all (including me) have a good rest of the day:thumb

red

[rocketman]

chips on shoulders
due to swept under the rug sig lines
lead to
boxing matches
flying electronic fists
seperating the dots and dashes and bits
with each swing
through the electronic air.

What a flurry of bitch slaps
of sucker punches
over nothing
other than real time
versus latent time
misunderstood time
wow

We all should go over to
jomama
we would fit right in

Just my opinion, I thought the thread was a welcome thread to our new admin guy
so I straightened up my tie and put on a freash suit'
which is hard to do when your
a cockroach!
I hope we all (including me) have a good rest of the day:thumb

red

just think of it a introductory lesson in what he is up against! :lol

If he survives the month
‘twil be a surprise
If not then I 'suppose
he'll be as the dead dog lies

Angry men with nothing but time
Old men and young batting at flies
One more for the books
Then we’ll simply move on
Another one down
Another one gone!

:lol

RM
(oh, and your ties still not straight!)

[Mika]

Post #9 in this thread is how the news was reported on the forum.

Some of us have projects on the forum, are taking up tasks within the organization that involve the forum and website. They have time tables for deliveries of the work product. In some case these tasks are to include contacting people with titles for various reasons. In many cases the time tables have multiple deadlines and dependencies that take place long before the announcement would ever go to print. Delays in timing of these contacts can result in delays measured in years or in killing the item altogether.

The nature of content work is different than coding a new management system properly, recruiting and filling of positions, setting budgets for hardware and the host of other very important duties in running this site. Content people often bring nothing but delay to the table of those working on these things. It may be different. It is dependant on it. Yet, for the content side to do it their tasks they need both the tools developed and provided by others and to be informed when they will be available.

Leaving the announcing of key positions on the website to the reporting of members does not meet the needs of people working to add content value to it. Reporters come to events with goals in mind. They report what they see as important to them and their readers. To leave the announcement to the whims of a member who came to see the rally site, put forward a proposal in the open session or took a weekend ride to see member friends does not meet the information needs. We are left uniformed and our efforts are denigrated by posts such as post #17.

I have incredible respects for the time and efforts and demands that are put in by people taking up various roles within the organization. I have been around long enough to realize projects may take longer than expected and often encounter obstacles that could not be anticipated when started. I am acutely aware how the nagging questions of people who will use the work product of these people can delay and frustrate those doing the work. I understand how we can come across as petty and demanding.

Please keep in mind members too are expending effort. They are planning their lives and resources in time and money and planning their efforts based on the work being done. Their families are wondering why just like yours they are putting in this time, effort and why their resources are going elsewhere. When members take up a task they believe they have the skills to do what is needed to do it and that they have something to bring to the task to give it life. The question asked more and more are not can I do it but will the system allow me to do what will be expected by the membership if I take up the task.

In this case, yes I expected more from the board and the parties involved.

[tommcgee]

Apparently there are some forum users who might feel that way.

They are wrong and if anything part of the problem if there even is one.

There obviously is a problem when members feel disenfranchised and then are accused of being wrong for having the feeling in the first place.

[kbasa]

Post #9 in this thread is how the news was reported on the forum.

Some of us have projects on the forum, are taking up tasks within the organization that involve the forum and website. They have time tables for deliveries of the work product. In some case these tasks are to include contacting people with titles for various reasons. In many cases the time tables have multiple deadlines and dependencies that take place long before the announcement would ever go to print. Delays in timing of these contacts can result in delays measured in years or in killing the item altogether.

The nature of content work is different than coding a new management system properly, recruiting and filling of positions, setting budgets for hardware and the host of other very important duties in running this site. Content people often bring nothing but delay to the table of those working on these things. It may be different. It is dependant on it. Yet, for the content side to do it their tasks they need both the tools developed and provided by others and to be informed when they will be available.

Leaving the announcing of key positions on the website to the reporting of members does not meet the needs of people working to add content value to it. Reporters come to events with goals in mind. They report what they see as important to them and their readers. To leave the announcement to the whims of a member who came to see the rally site, put forward a proposal in the open session or took a weekend ride to see member friends does not meet the information needs. We are left uniformed and our efforts are denigrated by posts such as post #17.

I have incredible respects for the time and efforts and demands that are put in by people taking up various roles within the organization. I have been around long enough to realize projects may take longer than expected and often encounter obstacles that could not be anticipated when started. I am acutely aware how the nagging questions of people who will use the work product of these people can delay and frustrate those doing the work. I understand how we can come across as petty and demanding.

Please keep in mind members too are expending effort. They are planning their lives and resources in time and money and planning their efforts based on the work being done. Their families are wondering why just like yours they are putting in this time, effort and why their resources are going elsewhere. When members take up a task they believe they have the skills to do what is needed to do it and that they have something to bring to the task to give it life. The question asked more and more are not can I do it but will the system allow me to do what will be expected by the membership if I take up the task.

In this case, yes I expected more from the board and the parties involved.

Thanks for your thoughts. I understand your desires for more information. But the question is really whether the timeline for delivery of information from the board meeting or related decisions really needs to be in everybody's hands within a day (which seems to be the sentiment I'm reading here).

I can understand this thirst, but I'd like to also point out that the folks that were at the BoD meeting and part of the decision were away from home for three or four days and may need some time to catch up with their home life, their professional life and such before they can get back to work on fashioning an announcement for the membership.

Just like everybody else, board members have tasks to accomplish outside the MOA and so far, this week alone, since Monday, I've probably got a solid 8 to 12 hours invested - just since I got home. This doesn't include the 60+ hours I and the majority of board members and paid staff put into it over the weekend.

Consider that not so long ago, it would have taken about 60 days for notice to be printed in ON for the general membership. We have considerably shortened that cycle via the web, but if the expectation is that the board is going to make two announcements, one message meeting what seems to be an expectation of instant notification and another that fits the print media schedule, I don't know that it's realistic. The question is whether anyone is served by having notification of such decisions within 24 hours of them being made beyond those that are curious. Will waiting a week really have any kind of significant impact on the membership experience? I don't believe so.

It sounds like the desire is that web notifications will show up within a day or so of action and that print notifications will show up in the next available BMW MOA ON. The difficulty I have with splitting announcements is whether we are, by such action, splitting the club in two - those that read the web site and those that don't.

I have some concerns about essentially providing information twice to two different groups and wonder whether the better course isn't just to roll it all into ON and call it a day. This will, of course, elicit cries of "black helicopter" and such from those that can't wait, but why should one group get preferential treatment? Is it preferential treatment?

But please, can we just get a little bit of slack here? We've got jobs, families and responsibilities beyond the MOA and sometimes, particularly after leaving those alone for 3 or 4 days, we need to catch up elsewhere in our lives for a bit before we can give the MOA our full attention again.

Thanks.

[Motor31]

I would just like to point out that if a Board member made a comment like this about anyone else on this forum he or she would be accused of badgering or demeaning a member. I think we'd all do better to keep such "clever" comments to ourselves and out of our posts.

There is a expectation here - at least by some - that it's the *responsibly* of someone in the organization to post any and every detail when something happens in real time. If "we" don't meet those expectations then we're fair game for attacks and reckless accusations. This thread was started on the 27th. I know that I spent all day Sunday traveling back from the Board meeting and didn't get home until 6:45pm local time. I worked all day Monday and have been sick with a cold since then.

What is announced in Open Session at a Board meeting is public information and can be passed along by anyone. I fully support getting information out quickly and Darrel's appointment is very good news. It's just not the job of anyone on the Board to report here about it. When Dave asked how many people at the meeting used the forum, about twenty people raised their hands. :stick

Just an FYI for you here. The post of mine you quoted was made tongue in cheek and aimed at Sibud, not at you. The "smileys" were chosen to project that intent since there is no way to see other non verbal communication on the board. Sibud and I have traded good natured jabs at each other before and I believe we both know when each others leg is being pulled. If you inferred anything else from it, even though I used a previously listed justification for non BoD participation on the forum as a part of the jib, that is your inference. Perhaps because you are not feeling well on top of being busy. Hope you feel better soon.

[jdmetzger]

Thanks for your thoughts. I understand your desires for more information. But the question is really whether the timeline for delivery of information from the board meeting or related decisions really needs to be in everybody's hands within a day (which seems to be the sentiment I'm reading here).

I can understand this thirst, but I'd like to also point out that the folks that were at the BoD meeting and part of the decision were away from home for three or four days and may need some time to catch up with their home life, their professional life and such before they can get back to work on fashioning an announcement for the membership.

Just like everybody else, board members have tasks to accomplish outside the MOA and so far, this week alone, since Monday, I've probably got a solid 8 to 12 hours invested - just since I got home. This doesn't include the 60+ hours I and the majority of board members and paid staff put into it over the weekend.

Consider that not so long ago, it would have taken about 60 days for notice to be printed in ON for the general membership. We have considerably shortened that cycle via the web, but if the expectation is that the board is going to make two announcements, one message meeting what seems to be an expectation of instant notification and another that fits the print media schedule, I don't know that it's realistic. The question is whether anyone is served by having notification of such decisions within 24 hours of them being made beyond those that are curious. Will waiting a week really have any kind of significant impact on the membership experience? I don't believe so.

It sounds like the desire is that web notifications will show up within a day or so of action and that print notifications will show up in the next available BMW MOA ON. The difficulty I have with splitting announcements is whether we are, by such action, splitting the club in two - those that read the web site and those that don't.

I have some concerns about essentially providing information twice to two different groups and wonder whether the better course isn't just to roll it all into ON and call it a day. This will, of course, elicit cries of "black helicopter" and such from those that can't wait, but why should one group get preferential treatment? Is it preferential treatment?

But please, can we just get a little bit of slack here? We've got jobs, families and responsibilities beyond the MOA and sometimes, particularly after leaving those alone for 3 or 4 days, we need to catch up elsewhere in our lives for a bit before we can give the MOA our full attention again.

Thanks.

Dave,

I fully understand some amount of delay in getting information out after a board meeting when you consider flights back home, catching up on personal issues, etc. No argument there.

One thing I do have a concern about is there seems to be a reluctance to use the forum for ANY communication. I mean no offense to anyone in the club, but we seem to be stuck in this "old world" style of communication. A business with 40000 customers would REALLY struggle without a decent website for communications these days. The club needs to focus on embracing technology and use it to provide better services to our members and in turn, to help grow our membership. I've been on the internet since pre-graphical web days and I didn't initially join the MOA because when I visited the site it was pretty plain and lacked information that would draw me in. Since that first visit I've made, we have made some good steps in the right direction with things like online rally registration and getting the word out about upcoming events. The MOA newsletter that gets e-mailed out is a great thing, as well. I also know we're on the edge of a website re-design, which will include a content management system that should make adding content substantially easier. So why not go further - start posting meeting minutes - record the open sessions (even just audio) and allow people to listen to them if they want to. That would cut down on a lot of "what happened at the meeting" because you could always say "why don't you go listen to the last meeting, posted on the website"? I don't see any downsides to providing MORE information to the membership. If anything I can see it cutting down on these "the board doesn't want to communicate" accusations that seem to come up every so often.

We should work on giving the membership the power to be informed - maybe we'll see higher voter turnout at election time. We should mention the forum MORE in the ON. I know it gets mentioned here and there on occasion, but why not take out a 1-page "ad" for ourselves to drum up interest in the forum? Run it for a few months and see if our 'hits' and forum membership numbers go up? Instead of just having a dealership hand out a few free issues of the "ON", make sure to include something about the forum so when someone gets a new bike they have somewhere to go for two-way communication with like-minded individuals.

Just some thoughts. I frequently get a bit frustrated that we're moving very slowly on the forum side of things. Changes happen but at a glacial rate. I'm all for being careful, but this is a "live" medium - it's easy to change the things that don't work out. :)

[Mika]

I my case and for some others it is not a 'desire' but a need.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/News_release


Writing a press release is part of the process of appointing a position such as this. Press releases are not always for consumption of the media but often are for the direct consumption of a target audience. Even in a limited target audience they are intended to keep people informed and on track, not split organizations into divergent camps.

My interaction with the person in this position is limited. I don’t need to have control. I do need to know who to send things to if needed, pay attention to what they say about the goals and rules of this format. The better I understand that the less I have to bug them about and the fewer problems I cause. Given the needed information I frankly don’t need any interaction to do what I need and want to do.

In my little recurring post I have been required to pay attention to copyright law, secure third party permissions, dig through internet stories for valid content, secure credentials for access and more. All that process time and effort goes in before I even begin to look for daily content and to put the little recurring post together.

I give notices to the Media Editor when I find something in an obscure BMW non-english website so the home page does not get scooped by Advrider.com or some other site. My goal in this is to make people want to come to our website as the first and best place to get information on BMW motorcycles.

I pay close attention to the print media side. I am careful not to step on the toes of what is being developed there. My goal is not be first with a headline but support a total effort. There are chances to bring the two together in how information is presented that takes advantage of unique strengths of print and web.

There have been opportunities to provide content that have not been pursued because of the internal system does not allow for the timely completion of the process.

I paid attention to what was said when we started this website and what we could do by using both to make the BMW MOA better and richer for all; luddites and techies included.

Do not confuse abstract long term organization goals and possibilities discussed recently or in the past with the need of timely provision of information that may be needed to continue to carry on what is on a daily basis already going on.

So you guys are not the only ones that spend a lot of time in the background. Our paycheck is the same for the effort and work provided. We all have different formal or informal titles in the association. Yet in the end all of us are fellow members.

It is often and rightly said respect is a two ways street, cutting slack implies two linked sides. Most of the time, we ride our bikes on two way paths. When did the core of the question for timely information in start of this thread become a one way track?

[GregFeeler]

Just an FYI for you here. The post of mine you quoted was made tongue in cheek and aimed at Sibud, not at you. The "smileys" were chosen to project that intent since there is no way to see other non verbal communication on the board. Sibud and I have traded good natured jabs at each other before and I believe we both know when each others leg is being pulled. If you inferred anything else from it, even though I used a previously listed justification for non BoD participation on the forum as a part of the jib, that is your inference. Perhaps because you are not feeling well on top of being busy. Hope you feel better soon.

Understood, and thanks for the clarification. :thumb

[rocketman]

Post #9 in this thread is how the news was reported on the forum.

Some of us have projects on the forum, are taking up tasks within the organization that involve the forum and website. They have time tables for deliveries of the work product. In some case these tasks are to include contacting people with titles for various reasons. In many cases the time tables have multiple deadlines and dependencies that take place long before the announcement would ever go to print. Delays in timing of these contacts can result in delays measured in years or in killing the item altogether.

The nature of content work is different than coding a new management system properly, recruiting and filling of positions, setting budgets for hardware and the host of other very important duties in running this site. Content people often bring nothing but delay to the table of those working on these things. It may be different. It is dependant on it. Yet, for the content side to do it their tasks they need both the tools developed and provided by others and to be informed when they will be available.

Leaving the announcing of key positions on the website to the reporting of members does not meet the needs of people working to add content value to it. Reporters come to events with goals in mind. They report what they see as important to them and their readers. To leave the announcement to the whims of a member who came to see the rally site, put forward a proposal in the open session or took a weekend ride to see member friends does not meet the information needs. We are left uniformed and our efforts are denigrated by posts such as post #17.
I have incredible respects for the time and efforts and demands that are put in by people taking up various roles within the organization. I have been around long enough to realize projects may take longer than expected and often encounter obstacles that could not be anticipated when started. I am acutely aware how the nagging questions of people who will use the work product of these people can delay and frustrate those doing the work. I understand how we can come across as petty and demanding.

Please keep in mind members too are expending effort. They are planning their lives and resources in time and money and planning their efforts based on the work being done. Their families are wondering why just like yours they are putting in this time, effort and why their resources are going elsewhere. When members take up a task they believe they have the skills to do what is needed to do it and that they have something to bring to the task to give it life. The question asked more and more are not can I do it but will the system allow me to do what will be expected by the membership if I take up the task.

In this case, yes I expected more from the board and the parties involved.

I'm curious to know how my observations of the fact that we still have what appears to me (based on total number of members and members using boards) the larger part of the membership consisting of members who do not, for whatever reason, participate on or even log into the boards as defaming the efforts of those who take part in helping in various positions, or as a criticism of those efforts. I was mealy trying to point out we must not forget those who rely on other means to stay informed on club acuities. Remember I too am one of those volunteers. And please understand I am asking not because I feel offended by your comments nor take them as such, I am simply a curious as to your point. I'd rather ask for clearification than remain unsure as to your meaning.

And I agree with Dave that we must be careful that we do not cause a schism of the club by the an inapropriate (if that is the right word to use here ?) use of the different mediums of communication.

RM

[Motor31]

Shameless but related hijack here.

In the last few weeks I have noticed a definite slowing of response by the web site. I see page changes taking a long time to load and frequent breaks in the flow to the point where I get a file not found error. This has gotten particularly bad today about 11:30 to 12:00 Pacific time.

Other websites load normally for my system so I kind of narrowed it down to here. Has anyone else noticed the same thing?
:dunno

[Rob Nye]

There obviously is a problem when members feel disenfranchised and then are accused of being wrong for having the feeling in the first place.

But IMO the validity of their disenfranchisment (yup I made it up) is no different that the guy who can't understand why he can't set up his tent a week before everybody else (at the national).

I hope that somehow, somewhere, someday all this will result in someone enjoying their motorcycle more.

Perhaps someone could help with the relationship.

Funny thing happend on the way to the party.

A site called Adv Rider has 87,000 registered users. That's over twice as big as the MOA and in what, five years?

I am a member of Adv Rider as are many here. I was able to generate more interest in a MOA sponsored event on Adv Rider than I was here. Ditto with the Minuteman 1000 and a few other rides we have put on here in New England, even though they are for BMW, we get more BMW participation by posting in a non marque specific site.

Why?

No idea but as an enthusiast when I want to have fun with like minded riders and indivduals I surf Adv Rider. When I want to see who is popping a nut over crazy political tripe...

You get the idea.

:blah

[Statdawg]

Here is a prime example of collaborative ways of collecting information by outsiders of traditional media. The information can still be edited and the information available to be used by many sources, in the example to be sited by the media and later the investigators. I feel the MOA can function in this collaborative way in developing our future. Whatever information that is offered is still up to the ruling entity ( BoD ) to decide what to do with it. If this can be accomplished well in the forum it can be offered to the ON readers to come over and join us instead of clinching to their news media source but come over here and help create it. It would work two-fold, allow communication with input and may increase forum usage because it becomes a tool (not a troll). Again we are not asking to limit or destroy existing roles just empowering both for a lack of better terms.

Timing ? It is fair to allow any meeting to digest and its attendees to normalize themselves. But there ought to be a time for opportunity to work together in our respective roles. Wikapedia works the same media as we and their rules are the same, please click on their discussion tag to see first hand.

Example of data and a statement about it that follows.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_July_2005_London_bombings

Citizen reporters helped traditional media in reporting from the London bombings. Camera phones, photo sharing sites and blogs enable people on the scene to share their experiences immediately to media consumers thirsting for information, especially valuable on an event like this where traditional media had restricted access to the locations and could take very few pictures of their own.

Another way of describing the event is the "7 July 2005 London bombings" page at Wikipedia, already a massive resource for information about what happened and how things progress. It is further evidence to the growth of open source, collaborative ways of collecting and distributing information, as an addition to traditional sources of information, such as media and governmental/official sources. Flickr, Wikipedia and Technorati are already up there with BBC and for example the official London site as places we turn to to become informed.


Closing note, I just feel that there is so many well connected, educated, experienced members that the MOA is missing an opportunity to tap it. I can understand the concern dealing with the non-forum majority membership but there just has to be a way somewhere to bridge the issues and protect the pioneers from uncalled for attacks and keeping the witch hunters at bay. For those of you with this experience in the Internet that have dealt with these issues from the web infancy can guide us through the negative voices. Really, if it works for wikapedia it should work for us.

[PAULBACH]

Shameless but related hijack here.

In the last few weeks I have noticed a definite slowing of response by the web site. I see page changes taking a long time to load and frequent breaks in the flow to the point where I get a file not found error. This has gotten particularly bad today about 11:30 to 12:00 Pacific time.

Other websites load normally for my system so I kind of narrowed it down to here. Has anyone else noticed the same thing?
:dunno

Yup! I notice it especially when sending a Personal Message.

[knary]

There was a slow down for a week or so. It should be somewhat addressed now.

[Mika]

I'm curious to know how my observations of the fact that we still have what appears to me (based on total number of members and members using boards) the larger part of the membership consisting of members who do not, for whatever reason, participate on or even log into the boards as defaming the efforts of those who take part in helping in various positions, or as a criticism of those efforts. I was mealy trying to point out we must not forget those who rely on other means to stay informed on club acuities. Remember I too am one of those volunteers. And please understand I am asking not because I feel offended by your comments nor take them as such, I am simply a curious as to your point. I'd rather ask for clearification than remain unsure as to your meaning.

And I agree with Dave that we must be careful that we do not cause a schism of the club by the an inapropriate (if that is the right word to use here ?) use of the different mediums of communication.

RM

My response is seen through the eye of a beholder.

I read your observation as being based on your observation of thread views and does not take into account rss views and home page hits that never continue on into the forum. As such the numerical basis for your post’s conclusion seemed flawed to this eye. Further it seems to assume facts and purpose of users that have not fully been explored.

The perceived slight by you was not of those holding positions but was perceived at those who use the total website. By what you seem to see as lack of use you were dismissing those who use it and in the process the current and potential value of it.

I do not forget that we have multiple means of communication within the association. The fact that the particular use of some of them is mandated by the rules we operate under is not lost on me either.

I respectfully and adamantly disagree with your and Dave’s conclusion regarding potential schism and the topic of this thread.

I ask you not to loose sight of the fact that the position in question within this thread is a web base position that impacts those who do participate in any form with any part of the web. Is it unreasonable to expect a sticky if not a ‘press release’ in the clubhouse for example?

Further if it is not appropriate now and the cause of potential schisms rocking the foundations of the organization now, why was it not in the past when in the process of announcing a new forum liaison a dedicated thread was started making the announcement of the selection, touted the new appointee’s value in the role and welcomed them to the position?

The appropriate use of the various media available to us will not lead to a schism. As said in a previous post of mine do not confuse the announcement of a forum based position being filled with debates in other threads about organizational issues. In doing so, you miss the opportunity to use the various media appropriately and to their best advantage to the need at hand.

[Statdawg]

I hope that somehow, somewhere, someday all this will result in someone enjoying their motorcycle more.

Perhaps someone could help with the relationship.

Funny thing happened on the way to the party.

A site called Adv Rider has 87,000 registered users. That's over twice as big as the MOA and in what, five years ?

I am a member of Adv Rider as are many here. I was able to generate more interest in a MOA sponsored event on Adv Rider than I was here. Ditto with the Minuteman 1000 and a few other rides we have put on here in New England, even though they are for BMW, we get more BMW participation by posting in a non marque specific site.

Why?

No idea but as an enthusiast when I want to have fun with like minded riders and individuals I surf Adv Rider. When I want to see who is popping a nut over crazy political tripe...

I am thinking on these terms as well. The main purpose of our Club is to ride and enjoy our bikes. If we can work together and tear down whatever perceptions we have of each other collectively we can be an example to other Clubs not only in the BMW ICC but for others.

Personally I enjoy the overland rider sites. Adv is great but the US election in joMamma is getting old. The sites I like are just like us, they have rallies that are smaller, and the celebrity riders are always willing to help the new rider. They all share information about getting from point A to B. In the HorizonsUnlimited Community one can receive real time information because there is most likely a rider in the thick of it. I found out about the Chilean Volcano, and a Somali incident way before CNN and the BBC. I can say on two occasions I was able to warn a traveling friend to cross a different border or avoid a certain road from a warning post by someone a few hours ahead.

The people that frequent these smaller sites are just like us, they ride, they wrench, they have high drama and there are souls that will rescue anyone if need be. Adv Rider ( not a small site ) is also very good at getting a member out of tough situations. But what these sites lack is having an organization that has a proven diverse leadership elected by the membership, an organized Club that can impact a community and at a grander scale. I doubt very much if Grant from HorizonsUnlimited or even Baldy from Adv Rider would want to partner with a marque, create events that are large, and even wish to. Most of the Adv Rallies are member generated, and in most cases so are HorizonsUnlimited. They are platforms of information provided by members for members and that is why they work so well.

[Mika]

But IMO the validity of their disenfranchisment (yup I made it up) is no different that the guy who can't understand why he can't set up his tent a week before everybody else (at the national).

I hope that somehow, somewhere, someday all this will result in someone enjoying their motorcycle more.

Perhaps someone could help with the relationship.

Funny thing happend on the way to the party.

A site called Adv Rider has 87,000 registered users. That's over twice as big as the MOA and in what, five years?

I am a member of Adv Rider as are many here. I was able to generate more interest in a MOA sponsored event on Adv Rider than I was here. Ditto with the Minuteman 1000 and a few other rides we have put on here in New England, even though they are for BMW, we get more BMW participation by posting in a non marque specific site.

Why?

No idea but as an enthusiast when I want to have fun with like minded riders and indivduals I surf Adv Rider. When I want to see who is popping a nut over crazy political tripe...

You get the idea.

:blah

http://www.alexa.com/

Rankings of web sites by activity

Advrider.com
19,520

AMAdirectlink.com
123,435

BWM MOA
232,664

Ibmwr.org
407,098

Hondaredriders.com
555,821

Tomcc.org
Triumph Owners Motorcycle Club
3,424,250

GWRRA.com
17,732,136

What do these numbers tell you? We have come a long way but we aren’t adventure rider? We have a heck of lot more activity than Goldwing riders do. We have come a long way but have a long way to go? I don’t know.

Quit looking sideways and deal with the topic at hand. Red herrings are nothing but bait.

[rocketman]

My response is seen through the eye of a beholder.

I read your observation as being based on your observation of thread views and does not take into account rss views and home page hits that never continue on into the forum. As such the numerical basis for your post’s conclusion seemed flawed to this eye. Further it seems to assume facts and purpose of users that have not fully been explored.

The perceived slight by you was not of those holding positions but was perceived at those who use the total website. By what you seem to see as lack of use you were dismissing those who use it and in the process the current and potential value of it.

I do not forget that we have multiple means of communication within the association. The fact that the particular use of some of them is mandated by the rules we operate under is not lost on me either.

I respectfully and adamantly disagree with your and Dave’s conclusion regarding potential schism and the topic of this thread.

I ask you not to loose sight of the fact that the position in question within this thread is a web base position that impacts those who do participate in any form with any part of the web. Is it unreasonable to expect a sticky if not a ‘press release’ in the clubhouse for example?

Further if it is not appropriate now and the cause of potential schisms rocking the foundations of the organization now, why was it not in the past when in the process of announcing a new forum liaison a dedicated thread was started making the announcement of the selection, touted the new appointee’s value in the role and welcomed them to the position?

The appropriate use of the various media available to us will not lead to a schism. As said in a previous post of mine do not confuse the announcement of a forum based position being filled with debates in other threads about organizational issues. In doing so, you miss the opportunity to use the various media appropriately and to their best advantage to the need at hand.

Well while I may not agree with all of your analysis it is true that I was not including those who view the front pages but are not forum users. Since I saw this as a discussion of the forums per se not an all inclusive view (on which you may indeed be right as I am sure there are many more hits there than views on the forum) I appreciate your clarification. Although I still fail to see my comments as any sort of slight to any group of users/members and they certainly were not intended as such, I am quite aware that different readers may have a different take on my comments, which is why I requested clarification. Nor was I suggesting that it would cause a "potential schism rocking the foundations of the organization" as you put it, rather that we simply need to proceed with caution so as not to alienate those who do not participate in the forums, which I see as two rather distinct views/levels of impact. And as you pointed out it was a forum position being announced in the original topic of this thread, rather than of the web site as a whole, and it was that part that I was addressing.
I certainly agree the front page is great means to disseminate information but it falls short of a two-way communication channel as is the forum. In this regards it is shares more with printed material than the forum, with the advantage that is can be more "timely" in the information provided.
So while we may disagree on some points we seem to see others in a similar light and certainly life would be rather boring if we all agreed on every issue and very little forward motion would come about, so I see this then as a good thing. And I also think it is important that when there is a question of interpretation, it be discussed rather than assumptions being made and folks jumping to Conclusions. (Just look at what happened to Milo (for those who have read the Phantom Tollbooth))!
If we can archive such when in doubt of others intent we could more quickly arrive at a consensus as to how to best use the various resources available to us. Or perhaps I should say, provide better input on the views of the membership in the hopes it will provide guidance to those in charge by providing our views and expectations of such media as the leadership weighs the issues. Just as the moderators goal should be to provide an experience that is in keeping with the needs and desires of the membership balanced with their own expertise on the issues, so should all leadership positrons. Something perhaps self-evident to most, but still bears mentioning on occasion. That certainly has always been my view of what guides the moderators and leadership and would hope it is a view shared by the membership.
OK, I'll shut up now. :lol


RM

[Rob Nye]

http://www.alexa.com/

Rankings of web sites by activity

Advrider.com
19,520

AMAdirectlink.com
123,435

BWM MOA
232,664

Ibmwr.org
407,098

Hondaredriders.com
555,821

Tomcc.org
Triumph Owners Motorcycle Club
3,424,250

GWRRA.com
17,732,136

What do these numbers tell you? We have come a long way but we aren’t adventure rider? We have a heck of lot more activity than Goldwing riders do. We have come a long way but have a long way to go? I don’t know.

Quit looking sideways and deal with the topic at hand. Red herrings are nothing but bait.

What the number and their presentation show is a lack of understanding or the desire to compare apples to red herrings.

With the exception of Adventure Riders every site you reference has a tremendous amount of page views of pages other than their forum. The Adv Numbers represent 99.9% forum use and member interaction.

Which after all is what we are discussing.

[Rob Nye]

I am thinking on these terms as well. The main purpose of our Club is to ride and enjoy our bikes. If we can work together and tear down whatever perceptions we have of each other collectively we can be an example to other Clubs not only in the BMW ICC but for others.

Personally I enjoy the overland rider sites. Adv is great but the US election in joMamma is getting old. The sites I like are just like us, they have rallies that are smaller, and the celebrity riders are always willing to help the new rider. They all share information about getting from point A to B. In the HorizonsUnlimited Community one can receive real time information because there is most likely a rider in the thick of it. I found out about the Chilean Volcano, and a Somali incident way before CNN and the BBC. I can say on two occasions I was able to warn a traveling friend to cross a different border or avoid a certain road from a warning post by someone a few hours ahead.

The people that frequent these smaller sites are just like us, they ride, they wrench, they have high drama and there are souls that will rescue anyone if need be. Adv Rider ( not a small site ) is also very good at getting a member out of tough situations. But what these sites lack is having an organization that has a proven diverse leadership elected by the membership, an organized Club that can impact a community and at a grander scale. I doubt very much if Grant from HorizonsUnlimited or even Baldy from Adv Rider would want to partner with a marque, create events that are large, and even wish to. Most of the Adv Rallies are member generated, and in most cases so are HorizonsUnlimited. They are platforms of information provided by members for members and that is why they work so well.

I suppose that if the purpose of the MOA is to "impact a community and at a grander scale" than other clubs either real or vitrual than you might be on to something.

In fact the MOA's mission is to: "Our mission is to foster communication and a sense of family among BMW motorcycle enthusiasts".

I submit that AdvRider does this better. The fact that they have multiple annual events put on entirely by volunteers and numerous spin offs should tell you something.

The fact that they do this without an organization that has a proven diverse leadership elected by the membership or as an organized Club that can impact a community and at a grander scale is something noteworthy. The feel enough of a part of something to put real effort into it, yet they pay nothing and receive nothing tangible, like a magazine.

The only thing we have that they don't is a magazine and a huge rally. And the clubhouse a place where people can hack away at "authority".

Put this way it is easy to understand that without the Owners News there really isn't any reason to pay dues when you can get all the other benefits (I'll leave it to you to decide if they are better) elsewhere for free.

[Mika]

What the number and their presentation show is a lack of understanding or the desire to compare apples to red herrings.

With the exception of Adventure Riders every site you reference has a tremendous amount of page views of pages other than their forum. The Adv Numbers represent 99.9% forum use and member interaction.

Which after all is what we are discussing.

No, what we are discussing in this thread is the announcement of the forum administrator. That is the title of the thread and the opening question. At least that is what several of us are trying to discuss.

If usernames post is the announcement then the means and process are open items for discussion because of its impact on doing things here. Your comments about advrider and other comments about volumes mean little to people who use the forum and website and need to know who is in charge for a variety of reasons.

What does telling us that advrider has 87,000+ registered users, myself included, mean in this discussion within an association of just over 40,000 members? They are just numbers and as pointless to the topic at hand as the numbers I posted as a parody of your post.

You rightly point out the difference in numbers due to the difference in the nature of the sites. Which brings us back to the importance of being informed as we go forward that has more facets than others.

[Mika]

I am bowing out of this thread. My concerns in it are very narrowly focused and have been expressed. Context is important for my understanding so I am going to look through some of Darryl’s posts and try to get that.

I am disappointed in the form and have expressed my displeasure, made suggestions for the future and have received responses from the people directly involved. I will take this post as the announcement.

i'll talk to the poobah and see who is supposed to announce darryl as admin. oh wait. crap. the light is low in this room... where is the delete key? wait, is submit highlighted? errrr.....

I hope we don’t have to have this conversation (if ever) again until Darryl has decided to step down because he feels his work is done after a long and successful term.

[Rob Nye]

No, what we are discussing in this thread is the announcement of the forum administrator. That is the title of the thread and the opening question. At least that is what several of us are trying to discuss.



You're right.

To recap there was talk of an announcenemt as to a new forum admin at the board meeting that was what, 72 hours ago?

The announcement didn't come fast enough. Too bad.

The discussion that lead to this announcement was not posted on a public forum for a small percentage of the membership to vote on and approve. Too bad.

The forum is a great tool that is being under utilized for a purpose it was never intended to serve. Too bad.

Does any of this have any bearing on how people will enjoy their BMW Motorcycles?

Does any of this have any bearing on what our financials will look like 24 months from now?

But what the folks who push, push and push to hold volunteers "accountable" and all that do is push, push and push members and potential members to other sites such as Adventure Rider.

FWIW, if you go waaaaayyy back in internet history the first big BMW Motorcycle specific mailing list was the IBMWR, still going strong today. I don't have the exact time table but it was shortly after the founding of the IBMWR that the administrators banned all MOA political talk and opened up a MOA specific mailing list.

Seems MOA politics and the discussion of same has been an issue since Al invented the innernet.

[PAULBACH]

I suppose that if the purpose of the MOA is to "impact a community and at a grander scale" than other clubs either real or vitrual than you might be on to something.

In fact the MOA's mission is to: "Our mission is to foster communication and a sense of family among BMW motorcycle enthusiasts".

I submit that AdvRider does this better. The fact that they have multiple annual events put on entirely by volunteers and numerous spin offs should tell you something.

The fact that they do this without an organization that has a proven diverse leadership elected by the membership or as an organized Club that can impact a community and at a grander scale is something noteworthy. The feel enough of a part of something to put real effort into it, yet they pay nothing and receive nothing tangible, like a magazine.

The only thing we have that they don't is a magazine and a huge rally. And the clubhouse a place where people can hack away at "authority".

Put this way it is easy to understand that without the Owners News there really isn't any reason to pay dues when you can get all the other benefits (I'll leave it to you to decide if they are better) elsewhere for free.

I submit that AdvRider does this better. The fact that they have multiple annual events put on entirely by volunteers and numerous spin offs should tell you something.

For clarification do the number of AdvRider events outnumber the club events, rallies and rides that are the essence of the BMW MOA ?

Put this way it is easy to understand that without the Owners News there really isn't any reason to pay dues when you can get all the other benefits (I'll leave it to you to decide if they are better) elsewhere for free.
So .... why so much sound and fury here?

And the clubhouse a place where people can hack away at "authority".
Questioning authority is the duty and responsibility of an electorate. I hope you are not equating questioning authority with hacking away at "authority."

[Rob Nye]

Paul,

There are more events, ride and general get togethers generated by Adv Riders than there are by folks on the MOA forum.

I think it is a stretch to include chartered club events. Do you think the Green Mountain Rally owes much to the MOA?

Plus local club events are discussed and good ones promoted on Adventure Rider as they are on here.

As far as my comments regarding "authority" being an officer or member of the MOA board comes with ZERO "authority" but it does come with a large amount of responsibility. I believe there is a huge difference. A police officer has authority a volunteer treasurer has accepted a responsibility.

The problem is for many they can't understand the difference and take out whatever frustrations they have with authority out on volunteers by vilifying them for not being:

Fast enough
Responsive enough
Honest enough

and a host of other things.

[PAULBACH]

Paul,

There are more events, ride and general get togethers generated by Adv Riders than there are by folks on the MOA forum.

I think it is a stretch to include chartered club events. Do you think the Green Mountain Rally owes much to the MOA?

Plus local club events are discussed and good ones promoted on Adventure Rider as they are on here.

As far as my comments regarding "authority" being an officer or member of the MOA board comes with ZERO "authority" but it does come with a large amount of responsibility. I believe there is a huge difference. A police officer has authority a volunteer treasurer has accepted a responsibility.

The problem is for many they can't understand the difference and take out whatever frustrations they have with authority out on volunteers by vilifying them for not being:

Fast enough
Responsive enough
Honest enough

and a host of other things.

I think it is a stretch to include chartered club events. Do you think the Green Mountain Rally owes much to the MOA?

I'll use the Green Mountain rally since I have some first hand knowledge of the event.

I just did a quick search on AdvRider where I am also a member. I used "Green Mountain" in the search box and found nothing there in the first 120 posts provided by the search engine.

The MOA did provide a platform for publicizing the event and the close to 4,000 hits on the MOA forum. My conclusion: not yet ready to dismiss the role of the MOA in the success of the Green Mountain Rally.

[SIBUD]

I started this thread and will ask the mods to end it.

I may have been premature in expecting an announcement on the forum regarding the change. I wasn't trying to embarrass anyone or give them a hard time (except for Motor31, who gives as good as he gets, and neither of us take those jabs personally:laugh )

But this thread has wandered far off course.

I suggest that if the discussion is to continue, that someone start another thread with the appropriate topic.


As for me, I'm giving myself a 2 week time out. It is way too touchy here and folks can not seem to get along while disagreeing. Perhaps things will calm down by then.

Regards.

[Oldhway]

Say goodnight Gracie....