Leaded Gas?

[Teslaesque]

My K100RS manual specifies that leaded or unleaded gas is called for. Leaded gas?!? Has anyone tried adding tetraethyl lead to the gas in their first-gen K-bike? Is this a ridiculous, dangerous idea? It seems to have never been brought up on this forum (to the best of my searching ability).

[Gilly]

Welll.......If you can FIND it, it should be fine to use. It's harmful to catalytic converters. I mean, other than the obvious (putting lead into the atmosphere)........

[bikerfish1100]

there are lead substitute additives available at most auto parts stores.

[Teslaesque]

If this engine was designed for leaded fuel, isn't it better for it to run on it? Or, more realistically, to run on good gas with a lead additive?

[BeemerMike]

If this engine was designed for leaded fuel, isn't it better for it to run on it?

If this engine was designed to run on UNleaded fuel, isn't it better to run on unleaded, both for the environment and for fuel availability?

I suspect that since the bike was built back in the 1980's, when both leaded and unleaded fuel were available, the manual is just letting you know the bike will run on either (as opposed to the later cat-equipped bikes, which REQUIRE only unleaded). Why complicate your fueling?

[PGlaves]

Look at a calendar, folks. The early K bikes were constructed during the time that leaded fuel was available but unleaded fuel was becoming inevitable. And the owner's manuals were written in the same time period. The bikes were built to run with unleaded fuel. That is 87 octane instead of the 95, 98, and 100 octane typical of leaded fuels of the day. (Remember the Clark 100 stations, anybody?)

So it was fairly logical to state that the engines were suitable for both leaded fuel - which was being phased out - and unleaded fuel which was slowly but surely becoming mandatory, here in the US and in Europe - if not in India, China, and Rhodesia.

The two beneficial things lead does/did in fuel is increase the octane rating and lubricate the faces of the valves and seats. The K bikes run just fine on regular unleaded fuel, and the valves are composed of materials that don't need lead in the fuel to prevent valve damage. My K75 clocked 370,000 miles, almost never needed valve adjustments, the head was never off, and still had excellent compression. And it never pinged.

So why in the world would I have any reason to think that adding toxic lead or an expensive "lead substitute" would be needed in a classic K bike.

You gain absolutely nothing except less weight in your wallet.

[Teslaesque]

Understood. The history surrounding the change from leaded to unleaded is unknown to me. I wasn't born yet. Just figured in such a high compression engine that increased octane might increase performance. I'm certainly not looking to trash my atmosphere. Thanks for clearing it up.

[rkoch]

Just FYI...I have a '91 K75S, which the owner manual and the mechanics here in Germany (where I live) both tell me that it's okay to burn leaded fuel in that era K-bike. In 2000, I took a long trip to Italy and found unleaded gasoline the exception, not the rule, and so in order not to mix fuels, decided to burn only leaded. About a month after my return to Germany, and had used a few tankfuls of unleaded, my engine began to run terribly, and got worse and worse...I tried additives, and used only premium fuel. Suspecting the leaded gas to be the problem, I took my bike to a BMW dealership and they confirmed the problem, changed the fuel filter, and had their laugh at me and the Italians. By the way, I had forgotten how much leaded fuel created pollution, while I was in Italy, I noticed how incredibly bad emissions were. When driving through a tunnel down there, I could barely breath.
Raleigh

[BeemerMike]

By the way, I had forgotten how much leaded fuel created pollution, while I was in Italy, I noticed how incredibly bad emissions were. When driving through a tunnel down there, I could barely breath.
Raleigh

:confused: Unleaded gasoline allows your vehicle to operate with a catalytic converter (without contaminating the catalyst), which reduces emissions of NOx, HC, and CO. If your vehicle does not have a catalytic converter, the only emissions difference between running leaded gas and unleaded gas should be emissions of LEAD compounds.

Regarding your apparently clogged fuel filter, I'm not sure I see what the effect of leaded vs. unleaded gas would be. Sounds more like you got some BAD gas (water, dirt, etc.), either leaded or unleaded.

When I was riding in northern Italy in 1999, we did not have any problem finding unleaded gas. Where in Italy were you?

[rkoch]

:confused: Unleaded gasoline allows your vehicle to operate with a catalytic converter (without contaminating the catalyst), which reduces emissions of NOx, HC, and CO. If your vehicle does not have a catalytic converter, the only emissions difference between running leaded gas and unleaded gas should be emissions of LEAD compounds.


Regarding your apparently clogged fuel filter, I'm not sure I see what the effect of leaded vs. unleaded gas would be. Sounds more like you got some BAD gas (water, dirt, etc.), either leaded or unleaded.

When I was riding in northern Italy in 1999, we did not have any problem finding unleaded gas. Where in Italy were you?

Wow Mike, you really know a lot about emissions, but I think you missed my point. With my limited understanding of pollution, I thought that the reason that catalytic converters (which required the use of unleaded fuel) were developed was to reduce pollution. My point on pollution was that the area of Italy I was in seemed to have much more of it, I assumed due to the common use of leaded gas, such as I remembered from the 70's.

It is certainly possible I got some bad gas, maybe even some bad leaded gas at that. I know the BMW mechanic showed me the filter and told me that it was leaded gas that clogged it. Perhaps he was wrong. My bike ran great after he replaced it. I can give you the number to Stadler BMW in Amberg and maybe you could discuss it with them, although I don't recall the mechanics name.

I was in the Naples/Rome area for about two weeks and had problems routinely finding unleaded fuel, or I would never have considered burning leaded gasoline. You may know that in countries such as Germany and Italy, the states within those countries can be very different, to include language, customs, road surfaces, etc. Northern Italy is very different than southern Italy. In the extreme north, they even speak German, but perhaps you knew that already. I have been riding the same '91 K75S here in Germany for over eleven years (with a three year gap at Ft. Lewis, Washington) . I have biked in England, Scotland, Belgium, France, Switzerland, Austria, Italy, Czech and of course, Germany during those years, and never had a problem until that trip to Italy. Since it was the only time I had ever used leaded fuel, I drew the conclusion that must have caused the problem, not to mention the mechanic's opinion about it. German mechanics, at least in my experience, are usually pretty good.

My overall point to my post was that, after my one-time experience with leaded gas, there not only appeared to be no advantage to using leaded gasoline, but that their might be a possible detrimental value. I suppose I should have stated that was my opinion on the matter, and not a scientific argument with unproven theories. Maybe you can let me know how your leaded gasoline experiment while motorcycling in Europe turns out.

Raleigh

[BeemerMike]

Wow Mike, you really know a lot about emissions, but I think you missed my point. With my limited understanding of pollution, I thought that the reason that catalytic converters (which required the use of unleaded fuel) were developed was to reduce pollution. My point on pollution was that the area of Italy I was in seemed to have much more of it, I assumed due to the common use of leaded gas, such as I remembered from the 70's.

Sorry, maybe I did miss your point. You said "how much leaded fuel created emissions", so I read that as you thinking that leaded fuel creates more pollution than unleaded fuel. My bad. If using leaded gas was common in the area of Italy then you would see more pollution, but probably because a lot of vehicles do not have catalytic converters and do not need unleaded fuel, and therefore have more NOx, HC, and CO emissions, which combine to make the air pollution - ozone, PM, and general haze - that makes it hard to breathe, especially in confined spaces like tunnels. The "lead" emissions do not make it hard to breathe, the lead just gets into your bloodstream and does bad things to your brain. :eek

It is certainly possible I got some bad gas, maybe even some bad leaded gas at that. I know the BMW mechanic showed me the filter and told me that it was leaded gas that clogged it. Perhaps he was wrong. My bike ran great after he replaced it. I can give you the number to Stadler BMW in Amberg and maybe you could discuss it with them, although I don't recall the mechanics name.

The lead in gasoline (tetraethyl lead) is a colorless liquid mixed into the gasoline, so it is not obvious to me how it would clog up a fuel filter, especially that would be visible on the filter media. But, maybe there is a way that I'm not aware of.

I was in the Naples/Rome area for about two weeks and had problems routinely finding unleaded fuel, or I would never have considered burning leaded gasoline. You may know that in countries such as Germany and Italy, the states within those countries can be very different, to include language, customs, road surfaces, etc. Northern Italy is very different than southern Italy. In the extreme north, they even speak German, but perhaps you knew that already. I have been riding the same '91 K75S here in Germany for over eleven years (with a three year gap at Ft. Lewis, Washington) . I have biked in England, Scotland, Belgium, France, Switzerland, Austria, Italy, Czech and of course, Germany during those years, and never had a problem until that trip to Italy. Since it was the only time I had ever used leaded fuel, I drew the conclusion that must have caused the problem, not to mention the mechanic's opinion about it. German mechanics, at least in my experience, are usually pretty good.

Well, that explains it . . . a different part of Italy. I'm not sure of the exact timing between fill ups and the filter problem, but it seems likely that the gas station storage tanks holding the leaded gas were older than the tanks holding the unleaded gas (and if not older, the unleaded tanks probably had to be throroughly cleaned out before they put unleaded gas into them), so the leaded gas probably had a higher risk of storage tank contamination.

My overall point to my post was that, after my one-time experience with leaded gas, there not only appeared to be no advantage to using leaded gasoline, but that their might be a possible detrimental value. I suppose I should have stated that was my opinion on the matter, and not a scientific argument with unproven theories. Maybe you can let me know how your leaded gasoline experiment while motorcycling in Europe turns out.

I don't plan to use leaded gasoline in Europe, so no experiment. One way to minimize the risk of fuel contamination is to try to always refuel at newer looking stations. Storage tanks are probably newer and cleaner, and more likely to have better fuel filter systems to catch any contamination before it gets into YOUR tank!

"Happy Motoring" :whistle

[ejressler]

I was in Germany as military, 3 tours, over 10 years, and later as a civilian. We also took several trips via Ryan air to numerous countries, where we rented a vehicle. I had my own vehicles in Germany, where leaded fuel started being phased out in the mid 80's. I had to remove the catalitic converter on my 85 Ford, and reinstall when came back to states. But unleaded was becoming available at the Esso stations, which Americans stationed there were able to use. I must say, that I have not seen leaded fuel in Europe in years. You must be in some out or the way places where the farmer's tractors or something, require leaded, if that is even possible. I would think you would have to go out of your way to find it. I agree with the general concensus, that unleaded fuel will and should work in about anything! Sorry if I offended anyone, but I think this horse has been kicked to death, RIP! :sick

[ejressler]

I was in Germany 3 tours as military over 10 years and later as a civilian. We also took several trips via Ryan air to numerous countries, where we rented a vehicle. I had my own vehicles in Germany. I must say, that I have not seen leaded fuel in Europe in years. I had an 85 LTD that I bought over there with the converter in the trunk, as unleaded was unavailable. It slowly became available in the mid 80's. The last time I was there, in Italy, I did not see any leaded, as all the rental vehicles required unleaded. You must have been in some out or the way places where the farmer's tractors or something, require leaded, if that is even possible. I would think you would have to go out of your way to find it. I agree with the general concensus, that unleaded fuel will work in about anything converter or not! Sorry if I offended anyone, but I think this horse has been kicked to death, RIP! :sick

[ejressler]

I was in Germany 3 tours as military over 10 years and later as a civilian. We also took several trips via Ryan air to numerous countries, where we rented a vehicle. I had my own vehicles in Germany. I must say, that I have not seen leaded fuel in Europe in years. I had an 85 LTD that I bought over there with the converter in the trunk, as unleaded was unavailable. I slowly became available in the mid 80's. The last time I was there, in Italy, I could not find leaded, as all the rental vehicles required unleaded. You must be in some out or the way places where the farmer's tractors or something, require leaded, if that is even possible. I would think you would have to go out of your way to find it. I agree with the general concensus, that unleaded fuel will work in about anything! Sorry if I offended anyone, but I think this horse has been kicked to death, RIP! :sick

[ejressler]

Sorry for multi posts, computer locked up.

[bikerfish1100]

I know the BMW mechanic showed me the filter and told me that it was leaded gas that clogged it.
Raleigh

only a theory, but your mechanic might be an idiot. ;)

[rkoch]

I apologize for inadvertantly causing the subject to get away from the actual thread. I was only trying to add a personal experience with burning leaded fuel in my K75 to Teslaesque. I related my experience as best I could. The end of the story was that I only had to replace the fuel filter, about $12 in 2000 at a German dealership. It's possible that I had gotten bad fuel. It's possible that I misunderstood the mechanic as my German is not perfect. Since a $12 fuel filter fixed the situation, I would assume that the mechanic I spoke with was not an idiot.
BeemerMike, if you would like to prove your theory, you can contact Stadler BMW at 0049 096 21 13 031 (Amberg, Germany). You may wish to brush up on your Bayerishe Deutsche Sprache as no one there speaks english.

Regards,
Raleigh

[BeemerMike]

BeemerMike, if you would like to prove your theory, you can contact Stadler BMW at 0049 096 21 13 031 (Amberg, Germany). You may wish to brush up on your Bayerishe Deutsche Sprache as no one there speaks english.

No offense intended here, but I have no "theory" to prove. I am just not aware of any reason or mechanism by which clean, water-free LEADED gasoline would clog a fuel filter any more than clean, water-free UNLEADED gasoline. If someone knows of such a reason or mechanism, please let us know.

[motoedde]

I apologize for inadvertantly causing the subject to get away from the actual thread. I was only trying to add a personal experience with burning leaded fuel in my K75 to Teslaesque. I related my experience as best I could. The end of the story was that I only had to replace the fuel filter, about $12 in 2000 at a German dealership. It's possible that I had gotten bad fuel. It's possible that I misunderstood the mechanic as my German is not perfect. Since a $12 fuel filter fixed the situation, I would assume that the mechanic I spoke with was not an idiot.
BeemerMike, if you would like to prove your theory, you can contact Stadler BMW at 0049 096 21 13 031 (Amberg, Germany). You may wish to brush up on your Bayerishe Deutsche Sprache as no one there speaks english.

Regards,
Raleigh

Just because the replacing the fuel filter fixed your situation...it doesn't mean leaded gas caused the fuel filter clog. The only thing you can logically conclude is that something caused your filter to clog...and replacing the filter resolved the issue.

I 've run leaded fuel for about 25k miles on a single fuel filter that I failed to change before my trip...so the filter probably had about 30+k on it before I replaced it.

Leaded fuel never created an issue...and my gas sources were sketchy.
http://www.motoedde.com/PicasaAlbums/First_Week_Mali/target6.html

[rkoch]

[QUOTE=BeemerMike;391005]No offense intended here, but I have no "theory" to prove.

Mike,
That post was intended for bikerfish1100, my apologies.

Raleigh