Another one bites the dust

[johnnyjs1]

Yup...just happened yesterday afternoon, 2004 R1150r Rockster with 16k...Clutch Spline Failure. Unbelievable that BMW continues to deny any problems with this:scratch

[GSAddict]

Sadly.........welcome to the club.:banghead

[johnnyjs1]

Not a club I wanted to join:banghead

[OfficerImpersonator]

I'd be happy to excommunicate you from the club, but once you're in, you're in. I'm sorry I have nothing more to offer you than my sympathy and condolences.

Besides, you didn't need that $2200 anyways. Your mechanic needs to make his boat payment, so he can put it to better use than you. :banghead

[johnnyjs1]

I 've read that some speculation to the cause is the misallignment of the components. Does this mean that even if it is fixed, it is likey to happen again:ear

[OfficerImpersonator]

I 've read that some speculation to the cause is the misallignment of the components. Does this mean that even if it is fixed, it is likey to happen again:ear

That's a concern I have as well. I'll let you know how things are in another 32,000 miles.

I've also seen it mentioned that the input shaft is about 20 mm too short. One owner posted that he had a new input shaft custom made to the "correct" length, which creates a greater surface area for the input shaft to mate with the clutch hub - and thus much more strength to the interface.

But since BMW won't even begin to discuss this situation from the manufacturer's/designer's/engineer's perspective, we're forced to grasp at straws and speculate as to what's truly going on - and how many bikes are potentially affected.

[jenunn]

But since BMW won't even begin to discuss this situation from the manufacturer's/designer's/engineer's perspective, we're forced to grasp at straws and speculate as to what's truly going on - and how many bikes are potentially affected.

I am never one to run to an attorney at the drop of a hat but it seems to me that when the number of machines all suffering the same problem runs into to the hundreds and perhaps thousands...and many low mileage bikes such as johnnyjs1 there might be an opportunity to make BMW pay attention.:whistle

[johnnyjs1]

Sent an email to BMW Motorrad USA. This is what i got in return:

Thank you for contacting BMW Motorrad USA regarding your 2004 BMW R 1150 R Rockster. We are sorry to learn you are in need of repairs on your motorcycle. Any request for assistance beyond the warranty period of your motorcycle would be considered on a case-by-case basis. Consideration will be taken at the time of the repairs by discussing your concerns with the service manager at your servicing BMW Retailer. The service manager would contact their internal BMW Market Team Representative. The request for assistance would be reviewed by this representative, and the service manager would notify you of the consultant's decision. Any and all determinations will be final. If you have any further questions, please respond to this e-mail or contact the Customer Relations and Services Department at 1-800-831-1117. Our office hours are Monday through Friday from 9:00 A.M. to 9:00 P.M., Eastern Standard Time. Regards,Casey RoachBMW Motorrad USA

[johnnyjs1]

I have seen the aftermarket input shaft. But my only concern is if i do the work myself or use aftermarket parts, ultimately...i dont have any recourse if it were to happen again. At least if i use the dealer, there is some record of it happening, and maybe (but doubtfuly) some recourse available:dunno

[OfficerImpersonator]

Sent an email to BMW Motorrad USA. This is what i got in return:

Thank you for contacting BMW Motorrad USA...blah blah blah

I got that email, too.

I was told to go fly a kite because of the following reasons:

Bike out of warranty. Not all work performed by official BMW dealer service department (that one really made me mad). Bike had "excessive miles" at the time (32,XXX miles at time of failure).

Luckily this happened a few months ago, so my disgust with BMW's corporate response has faded away with time. But it's plainly obvious that BMW runs away from this well-known and well-documented problem every time an owner contacts them with this issue.

[Motorcyclist]

I'll give you guys my update on my spline/clutch failure resolution here.

I filed against BMW in small claims court in CT. If they have a business presence in the state, chances are you can initiate a small claims action. Call your state's court for details.

I paid my $35.00 fee, and filed the paperwork (a one sheet form that took 5 minutes to fill out). BMW was given a deadline for a response to be submitted, and they failed to answer the charge. The court will contact me in the next few months, and I will either have a hearing with an arbiter to explain my grounds for the suit, or more likely be immediately awarded a judgement against BMW for all costs/damages.

Apparently BMW couldn't be bothered to answer a $1,400 charge, so, I'd recommend all people who have failures resulting from a poor design/QC process file similar suits. Perhaps when BMW sees the magnitude of dissatisfied customers, it will prompt them to take some ownership of the problem and not contine to stonewall the customers who expected decent service from their "legendary motorcycle."

Feel free to contact me if you have any questions.

[drrider]

beemer boneyard has a nice selection of transmissions on the cheap

[kentuvman]

Is this problem inherent to the R1150 or all the newer oilhead models?

[GSAddict]

I'll give you guys my update on my spline/clutch failure resolution here.

I filed against BMW in small claims court in CT. If they have a business presence in the state, chances are you can initiate a small claims action. Call your state's court for details.

I paid my $35.00 fee, and filed the paperwork (a one sheet form that took 5 minutes to fill out). BMW was given a deadline for a response to be submitted, and they failed to answer the charge. The court will contact me in the next few months, and I will either have a hearing with an arbiter to explain my grounds for the suit, or more likely be immediately awarded a judgement against BMW for all costs/damages.

Apparently BMW couldn't be bothered to answer a $1,400 charge, so, I'd recommend all people who have failures resulting from a poor design/QC process file similar suits. Perhaps when BMW sees the magnitude of dissatisfied customers, it will prompt them to take some ownership of the problem and not contine to stonewall the customers who expected decent service from their "legendary motorcycle."

Feel free to contact me if you have any questions.

Best of luck to you. Please keep us informed as to your progress.

[GSAddict]

That's a concern I have as well. I'll let you know how things are in another 32,000 miles.

I've also seen it mentioned that the input shaft is about 20 mm too short. One owner posted that he had a new input shaft custom made to the "correct" length, which creates a greater surface area for the input shaft to mate with the clutch hub - and thus much more strength to the interface.

But since BMW won't even begin to discuss this situation from the manufacturer's/designer's/engineer's perspective, we're forced to grasp at straws and speculate as to what's truly going on - and how many bikes are potentially affected.

That was me. It's 6mm too short not 20.
http://www.sunshinecoast.ca/bmw/InputShaft.pdf
I needed an order for 10 and never got enough interest.
Mine has been in my GS for 10,000 km now with no issues. I may pull apart this winter to get a visual, I don't know yet.

[Sunfire]

I have an '04 Rockster with around 16K miles, and last month while at a BMW dealer for an oil change, the service advisor noticed a leak around the rubber seal on the shaft near the wheel axle.

Last week or so I took the bike back and asked them to also perform a throttle synch together with the leak repair. All work was performed under warranty, and they did an excellent job. All I got charged was for the throttle synch ($70).

Is this what you guys are talking about? Or are there some other failures I should be concerned? I keep reading about "spline leaks" and I'm wondering if this is what I had.

Paul

================================================== ===============


Vent/Change of subject - SORRY!


PS Just to vent a little bit, 2 months ago I took my bike for the 12K mile service, and other than an oil change, I don't even think they touched the valves or throttle synch. The rpm's were all off at idle and at startup, the valve chatter was still there, and I paid $600 plus! I've always taken my bike to the dealer where I purchased the bike (>130 miles away), but because of this poor service I decided to try another dealer much closer to my house (60 miles away) - well, I'm happy with them, so my next service will be performed there. I guess my dollars are not welcome there...

[johnnyjs1]

Ok. so I trailer the bike to the shop. They take it off the trailer for me. I say "You wanna hear it?" "Sure", the tech says. He puts it on the center stand, turns the key, and cranks it. Sounds pretty good for the first .5 seconds. Then the racket starts, grinding, whining, yelping groaning you name it, it was heard. I can see both techs cringing at the sound coming from my baby. The tech says to me "Follow me, I want to show you something." He leads me over to another bike in the shop. Turns it on. Same exact noises coming from it. Then he says "C'mon over here." and leads me to a GS. Turns it on, yup you guessed it, same noise. I brought the response from BMW with me to show the tech guys. Dave, the manager, told me he would see what he could do, and that it was a good idea to write them, saying making first contact and getting a reply is a start. The sales manager also told me that their Rep/Engineer that handles these things will actually be at the store on tuesday. I am willing to bet, that all the dealers that say they have never seen this before, are lying their a$$es off. My dealer had absolutely NO PROBLEM showing me and starting 2 bikes sitting there with the same issue as mine. The tech said, he would break it down, figure it out, call bmw and call me with the results and see what i wanted to do.

[Motorcyclist]

Ok. so I trailer the bike to the shop. They take it off the trailer for me. I say "You wanna hear it?" "Sure", the tech says. He puts it on the center stand, turns the key, and cranks it. Sounds pretty good for the first .5 seconds. Then the racket starts, grinding, whining, yelping groaning you name it, it was heard. I can see both techs cringing at the sound coming from my baby. The tech says to me "Follow me, I want to show you something." He leads me over to another bike in the shop. Turns it on. Same exact noises coming from it. Then he says "C'mon over here." and leads me to a GS. Turns it on, yup you guessed it, same noise. I brought the response from BMW with me to show the tech guys. Dave, the manager, told me he would see what he could do, and that it was a good idea to write them, saying making first contact and getting a reply is a start. The sales manager also told me that their Rep/Engineer that handles these things will actually be at the store on tuesday. I am willing to bet, that all the dealers that say they have never seen this before, are lying their a$$es off. My dealer had absolutely NO PROBLEM showing me and starting 2 bikes sitting there with the same issue as mine. The tech said, he would break it down, figure it out, call bmw and call me with the results and see what i wanted to do.

Sorry to hear of your problems Johnny, but sounds like you have an honest dealer. Gives a new meaning to the often used BMW phrase "they all do that!" I hope you get some satisfaction from BMWNA, but I wouldn't hold my breath. They seem to know they have a problem, and are playing ostrich.

Please let us know what they say.

George

[Motorcyclist]

I have an '04 Rockster with around 16K miles, and last month while at a BMW dealer for an oil change, the service advisor noticed a leak around the rubber seal on the shaft near the wheel axle.

Last week or so I took the bike back and asked them to also perform a throttle synch together with the leak repair. All work was performed under warranty, and they did an excellent job. All I got charged was for the throttle synch ($70).

Is this what you guys are talking about? Or are there some other failures I should be concerned? I keep reading about "spline leaks" and I'm wondering if this is what I had.

Paul



Paul - the spline failure that these guys are talking about is the clutch spline, which is located on the end of the transmission input shaft. It is between the transmission and engine. On some bikes, the clutch hub and/or spline fail, which leaves you immediately stranded. It is about an 8 hour job to get to the parts and close it up again, not counting any transmission work that needs to be done.

It sounds like your bike had a final drive input shaft seal let go, or a transmission output shaft seal. They are at either end of the driveshaft. They are a relatively easy fix, and are also fairly common leakers. I have had two R1150R's and both had those seals fail within 20,000 miles.

I assume that you have some kind of extended warranty on your Rockster?

George

[ArthurKnowles]

Bike out of warranty. Not all work performed by official BMW dealer service department (that one really made me mad). Bike had "excessive miles" at the time (32,XXX miles at time of failure).


I can't speak for the excessive miles, but the service work is why I tell people that have new motorcycles and a warrenty to let the BMW dealer do the work. Makes a heck of a difference if a claim needs to be filed with BMW corporate later. As you found out.

it doesn't always go that way, but there is enough leeway that BMW can always contest teh compatency of your out of BMW Dealer service. You of course can contest that charge back, however, and then it is up to BMW to prove it. If you are still in your warrenty period.

Out of warrrenty, however, means just that. You are on your own. Best you can hope for is BMW to help out. They have done that int he past for some people, but not all. Best way to get BMW's help in this area is to get your BMW dealer to stand behind you and talk to BMW corporate on your behalf. That's why you should cultivate your BMW dealer relationship.

I have to admit I'm happy with my current dealer. Thier service/parts/dealer department has helped me out more than once. Just today I had them install my Smartire sensors. When they pulled the front wheel they found a bubble in the sidewall of an almost new ME880. The service manager's first thought was to have me buy a new tire. My first thought was OK, better now then have a blowout on my 3 day ride this month with the SO on the back.

My second thought was ... hey don't these have a warrenty? I bought the motorcyle used at this dealer. I was informed at purchase time that all work on the motorcycle was performed by the same dealer. SO, they should have records of the purchase date if needed. So, I asked about a warrenty. Instead of just blowing me off like some dealer would, he turned and pulled out the Metzler dealer documentation and looked up the warrenty. Then turned to me and said "I can cover this under warrenty" and saved me at least $150.00.

I don't think this same behavior would have happened at my closer BMW dealer. But BMW of SD is another dealership alltogether. I encourage everyone to find a similar dealer in thier area if possible. The closest, is not always the best.

[Motorcyclist]

I can't speak for the excessive miles, but the service work is why I tell people that have new motorcycles and a warrenty to let the BMW dealer do the work. Makes a heck of a difference if a claim needs to be filed with BMW corporate later. As you found out.

it doesn't always go that way, but there is enough leeway that BMW can always contest teh compatency of your out of BMW Dealer service. You of course can contest that charge back, however, and then it is up to BMW to prove it. If you are still in your warrenty period.

Out of warrrenty, however, means just that. You are on your own. Best you can hope for is BMW to help out. They have done that int he past for some people, but not all. Best way to get BMW's help in this area is to get your BMW dealer to stand behind you and talk to BMW corporate on your behalf. That's why you should cultivate your BMW dealer relationship.

I have to admit I'm happy with my current dealer. Thier service/parts/dealer department has helped me out more than once. Just today I had them install my Smartire sensors. When they pulled the front wheel they found a bubble in the sidewall of an almost new ME880. The service manager's first thought was to have me buy a new tire. My first thought was OK, better now then have a blowout on my 3 day ride this month with the SO on the back.

My second thought was ... hey don't these have a warrenty? I bought the motorcyle used at this dealer. I was informed at purchase time that all work on the motorcycle was performed by the same dealer. SO, they should have records of the purchase date if needed. So, I asked about a warrenty. Instead of just blowing me off like some dealer would, he turned and pulled out the Metzler dealer documentation and looked up the warrenty. Then turned to me and said "I can cover this under warrenty" and saved me at least $150.00.

I don't think this same behavior would have happened at my closer BMW dealer. But BMW of SD is another dealership alltogether. I encourage everyone to find a similar dealer in thier area if possible. The closest, is not always the best.

I agree that it is a good thing to establish a relationship with a dealer for warranty and other work.

But the work that Officer Impersonator required was not part of any routine service on the bike. Failure of the clutch splines, input shaft and transmission bearings cannot be tied to 6K, 12K or annual services. They are due to design and/or QC faults that are built into certain motorcycles through BMW's ineptitude. And true to form, BMW refuses to take any responsibility for something that is clearly a manufacturing issue.

[johnnyjs1]

Hopefully I will know more by tomorrow, the bike is at the dealer. Maybe they'll have it torn down and diagnosed by Friday:whistle

[OfficerImpersonator]

Hopefully I will know more by tomorrow, the bike is at the dealer. Maybe they'll have it torn down and diagnosed by Friday:whistle

When I took mine to the dealer for my new clutch input shaft/hub, they knew exactly what had happened when they heard those very same noises when they started the engine and tried to engage 1st gear.

All the techs know all about this problem. None of the corporate muckety-mucks have ever heard of such a thing.

[ArthurKnowles]

I agree that it is a good thing to establish a relationship with a dealer for warranty and other work.

But the work that Officer Impersonator required was not part of any routine service on the bike. Failure of the clutch splines, input shaft and transmission bearings cannot be tied to 6K, 12K or annual services. They are due to design and/or QC faults that are built into certain motorcycles through BMW's ineptitude. And true to form, BMW refuses to take any responsibility for something that is clearly a manufacturing issue.

I recall the thread, but once again "out of warrenty" means "out of warrenty". There is no obligation for the previous owner or manufacturer to provide any support for it. Unless they choose to do so.

I'll probably get a lot of flak for that, but it's honestly the way I feel about it. When you buy used, you are buying a pig in a poke (i.e. unknown state & status). That means, you take your chances.

I'e had this same type of issue bite me before on buying used cars. Like suddently having to buy a replacement transmission because the original failed withiont a few hundred miles. Same with clutches. You buy used, you are the warrenty. You have to fix whatever breaks. Period. Regardless of how you feel about the design of the product, you are the responsible party. Complaining about it, or whining about it, isn't going to accomplish much. Persuing legal alternatives might, but that's about it.

Best you can do in such a circumstance is to get the dealer to help. They have a lot more clout with the manufacturer than you do. But how many dealers (car or motorccyle) want to go to bat for you if you didn't buy it from them? Or if you don't use the dealer for service, why should they choose to go to bat for you? And as you know, going one on one with BMW NA isn't always going to prove successful. And in many case I understand their viewpoint completely (out of warrenty means out of warrenty - and where you get it services counts as well).

[Motorcyclist]

I recall the thread, but once again "out of warrenty" means "out of warrenty". There is no obligation for the previous owner or manufacturer to provide any support for it. Unless they choose to do so.

I'll probably get a lot of flak for that, but it's honestly the way I feel about it. When you buy used, you are buying a pig in a poke (i.e. unknown state & status). That means, you take your chances.

I'e had this same type of issue bite me before on buying used cars. Like suddently having to buy a replacement transmission because the original failed withiont a few hundred miles. Same with clutches. You buy used, you are the warrenty. You have to fix whatever breaks. Period. Regardless of how you feel about the design of the product, you are the responsible party. Complaining about it, or whining about it, isn't going to accomplish much. Persuing legal alternatives might, but that's about it.

Best you can do in such a circumstance is to get the dealer to help. They have a lot more clout with the manufacturer than you do. But how many dealers (car or motorccyle) want to go to bat for you if you didn't buy it from them? Or if you don't use the dealer for service, why should they choose to go to bat for you? And as you know, going one on one with BMW NA isn't always going to prove successful. And in many case I understand their viewpoint completely (out of warrenty means out of warrenty - and where you get it services counts as well).

Well, I bought my bike brand new from a dealer. Three years and 55,000 miles later I had the same failure as OI. And BMW gave me the same answer as he, Johnny, and many others have recieved....out of warranty, not going to help.

I am in agreement with your point that out of warranty is truly out of warranty. The mfgr. has no responsibility to help the customer, unless, they actually want to develop a loyal customer base, receive positive word of mouth advertising, and grow their market share. My problem is that BMW knows there is an inherent problem in some percentage of oilheads. And if you look around, these failures are not a rarity, and I believe they will become more numerous as more miles get put on the bikes. When a mfgr. improperly designs or assembles a product, they should step up and make things right. At least if they want to be considered a reputable manufacturer. Look at Yamaha with the ticking valves on the FJR. From everything I have read, Yamaha warrantied every problem regardless of years or mileage, or warranty status. That is how I expect a reputable manufacturer to behave when faced with a QC issue. With BMW you are paying a premium to own their product. Is a BMW bike 30% to 50% better than a comparable competitors product? In terms of function, probably not. But if I pay a premium for a BMW product, I damn well expect them to be stand up people when something goes wrong on the short end of the lifecycle. And particularly when that something is a well documented failure.

And I did pursue them in court. When I get a formal judgement against them in a few months, I'll be smiling when I either receive a check from BMWAG, or place an attachment on something of value to them. They made their decision to deny any goodwill, and accordingly, I have made my decision regarding future ownership of their products.

[kantuckid]

You go boy! I ride this same machine and hate to think of being helplessly stranded in the future. I don't use a dealer for service & if I did it would be an all day trip just to go & come back, let alone the service time & $!. If a manufacture wants the public trust on this type issue, they should cultivate it! The extremely weak fuel disconnects are a similar issue on this bike.
I once had a 4x4 Mazda van-was the Motor Trend Car of the Year in 1990, no less. I had a torque converter failure @ 50,112k.I learned from the best tranny guy in these parts, that the part was not up to the task application. Guess if Mazda covered the repair? Guess if I'll ever buy a Mazda? I like the BMW brand(worked on the cars since 1969), but a thing like the above could cause me and others to look elsewhere...:whistle

[kreinke]

I've got an '04 R1150. All this talk in this thread has me seriously looking at a Bandit 1250!

They're a pretty sturdy bike aren't they?

[johnnyjs1]

Well, I bought my bike brand new from a dealer. Three years and 55,000 miles later I had the same failure as OI. And BMW gave me the same answer as he, Johnny, and many others have recieved....out of warranty, not going to help.

I am in agreement with your point that out of warranty is truly out of warranty. The mfgr. has no responsibility to help the customer, unless, they actually want to develop a loyal customer base, receive positive word of mouth advertising, and grow their market share. My problem is that BMW knows there is an inherent problem in some percentage of oilheads. And if you look around, these failures are not a rarity, and I believe they will become more numerous as more miles get put on the bikes. When a mfgr. improperly designs or assembles a product, they should step up and make things right. At least if they want to be considered a reputable manufacturer. Look at Yamaha with the ticking valves on the FJR. From everything I have read, Yamaha warrantied every problem regardless of years or mileage, or warranty status. That is how I expect a reputable manufacturer to behave when faced with a QC issue. With BMW you are paying a premium to own their product. Is a BMW bike 30% to 50% better than a comparable competitors product? In terms of function, probably not. But if I pay a premium for a BMW product, I damn well expect them to be stand up people when something goes wrong on the short end of the lifecycle. And particularly when that something is a well documented failure.

And I did pursue them in court. When I get a formal judgement against them in a few months, I'll be smiling when I either receive a check from BMWAG, or place an attachment on something of value to them. They made their decision to deny any goodwill, and accordingly, I have made my decision regarding future ownership of their products.

+1,000,000
Gonna call the dealer today and see what is going on. When I dropped the bike off, the service and sales managers said they would do everything they can to get me a favorable decision from BMWNA. But after talking to a few people who have had some extensive dealings and knowledge about this particular dealer, I'm thinking the managers were blowing smoke up my a$$. The owner...some rich guy who never owned a BMW prior to buying his dealership. Doesnt seem to care too much about customer satisfaction as long as he keeps sellin bikes(but with his attitude, wont be selling lots a bikes too much longer). So..i'm not too confident that the dealer will go to bat for me. If all this doesnt work out well for me, I honestly dont think I can/will ever own another BMW, knowing how poorly they treat their customers. Sure..I'm just one little guy, with one little bike, but eventually one little guy will turn into thousands of little guys. Maybe them BMW will take responsiblity for their crappy Q.C. regarding parts and possibly assembly. As far as warranty goes: Thousands of bikes are having the same issues after the warranty expires, you'd think BMW would address this and extend the warranty on those parts that are failing, or at least remedy the repair cost in part.

I can do 95% of the maintenance on my bike myself, yet I chose to spend the big bucks and take it to my dealer, for the sole purpose of building a relationship with them. I guess we'll see if my extra effort and $$ is gonna pay off.:blush

[Motorcyclist]

I've got an '04 R1150. All this talk in this thread has me seriously looking at a Bandit 1250!

They're a pretty sturdy bike aren't they?

The Bandit is a great bike, I've ridden the 1250 and it has a smooth, powerful, and tractable motor. The handling is excellent as well, and the aftermarket is being very supportive. I especially like the Givi panniers that are available. I have seen a few touring around this year, and overall it seems they are a very nice package for a very reasonable price. And chain drive has come a long way since I last had them in the early 80's. A night and day difference.

Your R may be fine from a maintenance standpoint, certainly many do not have the problems some of us have experienced. And if you get a good one, they tend to stay that way. But the fly in the ointment is, you never really know what you've got until something happens. And there is a certain percentage out there that will fail prematurely. If BMW gave owners some sense of support, then taking a chance and racking up the miles is not as big a deal. But that is not their MO, from what I can see. The result for me is that I lost confidence in my bike (and BMW in general) over several issues that have cropped up, the last straw being the transmission bearing/spline failure. My solution was to buy a Triumph Tiger as my primary touring bike, a decision which I do not regret.

BMW makes a bike that has nice power and good handling characteristics, the trick is to be lucky and purchase the ones that do not have built in self destruct issues!

Good luck in your decision!

[OfficerImpersonator]

If only BMW would cooperate and share their knowledge about the frequency of these well-known issues, we could have data like "only X% of final drives fail" or "only Y% of clutch hubs fail". Then we could take solace knowing the odds are in our favor.

As it is, we have no idea what percentage of final drives or clutch hubs fail. We can only make assumptions, and when you're talking about $20,000 motorcycles and repairs that cost 10% of the price of the bike, it becomes a big deal.

If only they would tell us what they really know instead of pretending it's not a problem or it's our fault.

[ArthurKnowles]

If only BMW would cooperate and share their knowledge about the frequency of these well-known issues, we could have data like "only X% of final drives fail" or "only Y% of clutch hubs fail". Then we could take solace knowing the odds are in our favor.

As it is, we have no idea what percentage of final drives or clutch hubs fail. We can only make assumptions, and when you're talking about $20,000 motorcycles and repairs that cost 10% of the price of the bike, it becomes a big deal.

If only they would tell us what they really know instead of pretending it's not a problem or it's our fault.

I hear what you are saying. And it would be nice, but it is never going to happen. That would be a bad business practice. No corporation will ever admit to a fault like that. Best you can get with soemthing like this is the NRCHA (right initials I hope) database, or goverment intervention (like the FAA for plane crashes), etc.

And truthfully, I understand the frustration people are having with the failures. No one likes to have to pay an out of pocket expense. Particulalry when they consider it unfair. But that's where I differ from the "frustrated" opions out there.

I accept the legal ramifications for my purchase/actions. I honestly think everyone else that has an issue out of warrenty should do so as well and stop pissing and moaning so much about it. There is nothing wrong with asking your dealer to help intervene with BMW NA and see if they will help defray the cost of the repair. If they choose to do so, it's just good customer relations. Or in other words a gracious response. Appreciated, but not required.

I had my concerns about my used '06 LT purchase. Heard a lot about final drives, clutchs, etc. and potential big out of pocket expenses for repairs. So, I took precautions and bought an extended warrenty. Hopefully I'll never have to use it. If I do, I hope the failure will be covered. If not, I'll just bite the bullet and pay for it myself. That doesn't mean I will not try and get my dealer to help with BMW NA to help defray the cost, but if they don't then they don't. That doesn't mean I'll stop buying or riding a BMW.

As an FYI, I've already recoved about 3 ~ 4K in warrenty repairs on my LT under it's remaining factory warrenty. And before my warrenty expires completely, I'll take it in to my dealer for a final going over check (at my expense) to see if there is any potential problem that should be fixed (under warrenty) or documented for the future. But as it stands now, I have no complaints or issues with BMW as a corporation and nothing but praise for BMW of SD.

[johnnyjs1]

Pay a premium for a BMW, they know that there were bad parts/assembly procedures....deny, deny, deny. Sure, here ya go, take another 12-20k from me for another bike. I dont think so, maybe you have $100 bills comin outta your rear, but most of us paid that premium up front, thinkin BMW put out a quality product. Triumph.....here I come:drink

[ArthurKnowles]

Pay a premium for a BMW, they know that there were bad parts/assembly procedures....deny, deny, deny. Sure, here ya go, take another 12-20k from me for another bike. I dont think so, maybe you have $100 bills comin outta your rear, but most of us paid that premium up front, thinkin BMW put out a quality product. Triumph.....here I come:drink

Well maybe your conception of a premium is the problem. I didn't pay a premium for any of my BMW motorcycles. The LT is cost effective with the Goldwing (the only motorcycle you can compare it to). My RT is cost effective with the ST (again the only real comarision as all the other's are more sport than touring motorcycles in my opinion).

I don't have $100 bills coming out my rear either, but as I pointed out previously I took precautuions with my LT purchase. It's too bad many othere's that purchased new, or while still under factory warrenty, didn't buy an extended warrenty as well. It's knowing where to spend your money that makes the difference in my opinion, not how much you spend.

If you want to blame anyone, blame yourself! While your motorcycle was under warrenty did you get good service from your dealer? Did you get appropriate response for warrenty claims from the dealer/BMW? If you did, as I have, then you have nothing to complain about. If you did not, then that was your chance to sell your motorcycle and buy something else that would make you happy. The only legal/ethical contract you had between you and BMW exists only so long at the original warrenty period of your purchase. Anything beyond that point is simply a goodwill gesture.

FWIW, I'e gotten better service and support from my delaer (anv though them, BMW) than any other motorcycle I have sever owned. I've gotten better service at my BMW dealer than any other manufacturer in my area for motorcycles. Inluding Honda/Yamaha/Triumph/Suzuki. Out here the other dealers sell multiple manufacturer's motorcycles and didn't offer me much of any real support. When it came time to purchase, I couldn't even arrange ride.

When it comes to cars, it's pretty much the same thing. There is support and service, although limited when compared to BMW (Mercedes, Lexus, etc.). The honeymoon period with all dealers only seems to last so long at the original warrenty period. Or so long as you trade up to a new model as a consistent customer. That's pretty much a standard business practice.

There are some manufacturers that will go out of their way to support their customers, but even with that you need to go through appropriate channels to get it done. It starts with dealer support. While my mother was visiting (during my kidney transplant) her Cadillac was serviced out here by a lcoal dealer and found to have had several issues. Originally Cadillac didn't want to do anytihng about the issues as the car was out of warrenty (sound familiar), but my mother had meticulous records and all service was performed by her local dealer in Florida. As a goodwill gesture (stated that way specifically by Cadillac as they did not assume any responsibility for the issues) they repaired it all (somewhere between $3K and 5K of repairs) for an out of pocket cost of $500. Her car drives like new once again.

That's what a goodwill gesture can do for you, but it starts with the asserttion of not trying to force the manufacture to admit/acknowledge responsibility for the problem/issue. As we all know humans are imperfect and crap just happens (as the saying goes). It continues with working though the appropriate channels to work with the dealer & manufacturer. It may not always work, and if it doesn't and you still feel slighted, then you have every right to persue legal means (doesn't do much for you when out of warrenty unless you can prove it is a defective product) or as you plan to do take your money elsewhere in the future. If you do, maybe you should also reconsider your choice about an extended warrenty as well though. :)

[will3hawks]

Having been involved with BMW Cars and Motorcycles since the 70's my observations as to how they respond to accusations of their design flaws are as follows.
!. They deny there is a problem
2. They blame the customer
3. They tell you to jump through the corporate hoops, then deny the claim.

What has worked for people in the past is not unlike the gentleman suggested as this relates to the courts.

In the 70's the M30 engine was experiencing head cracking problems due to excessive heat caused by the thermal reactors they used instead of catalytic converters. Literally thousands of owners complained and were blamed by BMW. A class action lawsuit was filed which the arrogant bastards could not ignore as the courts have no regard for Prussian arrogance. They had to make it right or face legal sanctions.

Never forget that BMW AG is an extremely arrogant group and often the only way to deal with them is with an iron fist.

Regards,

Will

[kantuckid]

Yep! You got it right-the BMW dealer(most any brands the same) will ride your warranty like the cash cow that it is, but when it's gone you are out of luck! Warranties are sold at a profit and no matter if it is a sweeper or a bike/car the prifit is by design coming from yours truly > If you have the $ and want to buy one , then please do so. When I sell a car out of warranty I tell the buyer if they want one they can shop for one or I will and ad it to the selling price. I don't see it as complicated, but I'm going to 1150.org and search this problem... WELL, guess whats at the top of the list on the other forum-if you have had this problem go over to the 1150.org forum under that bike and read on about this issue!!!
I just had this thought-is MOA too "kissy faced" with BMWAG to represent owners with these issues, or why do we have a club?

[awagnon]

I just had this thought-is MOA too "kissy faced" with BMWAG to represent owners with these issues, or why do we have a club?

I agree completely, but as noted on another thread on this forum (see Final Drive Failures), BMW MOA is strictly a social club and not an advocate for it's 40,000 members. I was flamed because apparently this has been discussed "ad nauseum". I had thought the MOA was more than just a fraternity/sorority for BMW owners. But I guess I was wrong and was soundly corrected.

[johnnyjs1]

If its just a social club, then why is there so little criticism from the higher ups of this "club" towards BMW's lack of caring about these problems that keep coming up....FD failures, Clutch spline failures, Fuel line QD's. People here seem to be afraid of standing up to BMW. Just my .02 Will BMW support for this "social club" get yanked if there is criticism being thrown around? Is BMWMOA a puppet?

[awagnon]

If its just a social club, then why is there so little criticism from the higher ups of this "club" towards BMW's lack of caring about these problems that keep coming up....FD failures, Clutch spline failures, Fuel line QD's. People here seem to be afraid of standing up to BMW. Just my .02 Will BMW support for this "social club" get yanked if there is criticism being thrown around? Is BMWMOA a puppet?

Again, I agree completely. I think that's the difference between the BMWMOA and the BMWRA, with the later group not being afraid of being critical of BMW.

[dancogan]

Again, I agree completely. I think that's the difference between the BMWMOA and the BMWRA, with the later group not being afraid of being critical of BMW.
Maybe the RA is more outspoken, but where are the results?

[Motor31]

Perhaps it might not be a bad idea for those with transmission and FD issues to also file a complaint with the feds traffic safety organization. Right now I'm having a senior moment and can't recall the acronym. If there are enough complaints a recall may be initiated. That ought to get their attention.

Frankly I for one am rather dismayed at all of the issues and the way BMWNA has responded.

[bmwmick]

Perhaps it might not be a bad idea for those with transmission and FD issues to also file a complaint with the feds traffic safety organization. Right now I'm having a senior moment and can't recall the acronym. If there are enough complaints a recall may be initiated. That ought to get their attention.

Frankly I for one am rather dismayed at all of the issues and the way BMWNA has responded.

Hi Mike,
You are trying to say NHTSA and a lot of the failures HAVE been reported to them. They refuse to discuss it. Maybe BMW/NA got to them first?

[awagnon]

Maybe the RA is more outspoken, but where are the results?

I think they've had some minor victories over the years, but with their membership numbers they don't have the clout the MOA would have. But at least they're willing to speak up and not just be a "social club" as was clearly explained to me in the other thread.

[johnnyjs1]

NHSTA will do nothing until people start getting hurt due to the FDand Spline failures. Its a shame, that it will take serious injury or even death before they do an investigation and demand for a recall:cry

[knary]

Again, I agree completely. I think that's the difference between the BMWMOA and the BMWRA, with the later group not being afraid of being critical of BMW.

:brow

Who's "afraid" of bring critical of BMW? The MOA? So the choice is "advocacy group" or "cowards"? :bluduh

p.s. this isn't being "flamed". This is me trying to understand why you keep writing what seem like misleading statements.

[johnnyjs1]

:brow

Who's "afraid" of bring critical of BMW? The MOA? So the choice is "advocacy group" or "cowards"? :bluduh

p.s. this isn't being "flamed". This is me trying to understand why you keep writing what seem like misleading statements.

Please correct me if I am wrong, as I would be extrmely happy if i were wrong. BMWMOA puts out a monthly magazine to its members, from what I've noticed, it seems to be mostly fluff pieces on how great BMW motorcycles are. Has it ever once been mentioned about the FD or CS failures? Again, I have not seen every ON magazine, but I have never seen any of these issues ever addressed. Call it what you will, social club, etc... But even social clubs speak out about certain issues that affect its members, whether good or bad. Guess the ignorance is bliss approach works too. Ignore the issue long enough and it magically disappears?:dunno

[awagnon]

Who's "afraid" of bring critical of BMW? The MOA? So the choice is "advocacy group" or "cowards"?

You're correct. The choice should be between "an advocacy group" and "do nothing group". Whether the MOA is afraid to speak on behalf of its members or just doesn't want to, same result. Don't tell me they don't because it isn't in their Articles of Incorporation, Bylaws, or whatever. I'm sure the MOA can be supportive of its members if it wanted and not just be a social organization as you proclaim.

Yes, I consider it being flamed when you post a response that "this has been discussed ad nauseum". When I read the threads, I got the sense that there is still much disagreement from the membership on what the MOA should be or is perceived to be.

[knary]

Please correct me if I am wrong, as I would be extrmely happy if i were wrong. BMWMOA puts out a monthly magazine to its members, from what I've noticed, it seems to be mostly fluff pieces on how great BMW motorcycles are. Has it ever once been mentioned about the FD or CS failures? Again, I have not seen every ON magazine, but I have never seen any of these issues ever addressed. Call it what you will, social club, etc... But even social clubs speak out about certain issues that affect its members, whether good or bad. Guess the ignorance is bliss approach works too. Ignore the issue long enough and it magically disappears?:dunno

I seem to recall more than a few articles by Paul Glaves, for example, referring to various mechanical issues and what may or may not cause them - including the final drive issue.

The mission of the club IS open for discussion, but calling the MOA "afraid" or in denial (paraphrasing) or similar, is misleading and inaccurate.

[knary]

You're correct. The choice should be between "an advocacy group" and "do nothing group". Whether the MOA is afraid to speak on behalf of its members or just doesn't want to, same result. Don't tell me they don't because it isn't in their Articles of Incorporation, Bylaws, or whatever. I'm sure the MOA can be supportive of its members if it wanted and not just be a social organization as you proclaim.

Yes, I consider it being flamed when you post a response that "this has been discussed ad nauseum". When I read the threads, I got the sense that there is still much disagreement from the membership on what the MOA should be or is perceived to be.

You seem intent on starting a heated discussion. I don't understand why. You weren't flamed. I made no personal attack on you. I did not use hostile terms or emotional language. If I offended you, I am sorry. It was not my intent.


Back to point:
We're a member driven organization aimed first and foremost at fraternity. While we do have 40,000 members, we have a *small* staff of around a dozen, including contractors. This means, among other things, that members write the vast bulk of the content on the ON and the site, and take on many of the tasks that keep this place alive.

Paul Glaves generously wrote an excellent article a year or two discussing the Final Drive issue. If another article hasn't been published, it isn't because the MOA is in BMW's pocket. It means most of all, no one has written it and submitted it for publication. It should be noted that Vince and Mandy have both made repeated public requests for more tech articles from the membership.

Could the staff or a specific volunteer take on the final drive and further issues? Perhaps. At this point, I don't know of any staff member who might have the appropriate skills with room on their plate to do so. Is someone willing to step forward, within the context of the MOA's current mission statement and bylaws, to volunteer to do so? I don't know. We have a volunteer consumer liaison that takes on problems on a case by case basis, and with positive results, but not as part of a mission to address a particular larger issue. Doing so might well require the changing of the MOA's bylaws. This, as with any organization of this type, isn't something that would happen swiftly.

So what are we left with?
1. Should the MOA be an advocate organization? -open for discussion-
2. Is the MOA "afraid" of BMW? No
3. What mechanism/staff/volunteers would be needed to address #1 IF it was decided that we should do so?
4. Any articles about this and other topics, as always, come primarily from the membership.

I'd love to see if we could get a version of the MCN article on our site or in the ON.

p.s. If it isn't clear, I write this as a member with perhaps more experience with the workings of the club, but not as a representative of the staff, board, or whatever.

[awagnon]

Scott. Thank you for your explanation. I don't think it would take a lot of man power for Vince or someone to write an editorial in the Owners News pointing out that there is growing concern about BMW reliability based on increasing numbers of posts in multiple on line forums about actual spline and FD failures and now in MCN about FD failures. And then end the editorial with a request for BMW to respond with reliable data on failure rates. Follow up the editorial with a letter to BMW. Put the ball in BMW's court. Whether BMW refuses to play or not is their decision. At least many of us who have experienced spline failures just after the bike went out of warranty would have a sense of support by what some perceive as a representative organization.

[OfficerImpersonator]

I notice in the latest issue of ON that the MOA just got a free 2008 GS to ride around.

I bet if they started advocating on behalf of the members instead of shilling for BMW corporate, the free bike supply would dry up mighty fast.

Any chance we can get Bill Shaw (author of article in MCN) to chime in here? He's a life-time MOA member, and took BMW to task for the final drive issue in the last MCN. I'd be interested to hear his perspective on what role, if any, our club should play in this debacle.

[awagnon]

Any chance we can get Bill Shaw (author of article in MCN) to chime in here? He's a life-time MOA member, and took BMW to task for the final drive issue in the last MCN. I'd be interested to hear his perspective on what role, if any, our club should play in this debacle.

+1

Questions about BMW motorcycle reliability strikes at the very core of why a large percentage of BMW owners paid considerably extra money to own these bikes. It seems addressing a potential reliability issue would be a more worthy BMW ON article or editorial than the tenth ride report about southern Utah.

[OfficerImpersonator]

I seem to recall more than a few articles by Paul Glaves, for example, referring to various mechanical issues and what may or may not cause them - including the final drive issue.

The mission of the club IS open for discussion, but calling the MOA "afraid" or in denial (paraphrasing) or similar, is misleading and inaccurate.

Scott,

I'd disagree with your position that someone's perception of the MOA's lack of cojones is misleading or inaccurate. Perceptions are perceptions, not fact, and thus not so easy to summarily dismiss.

You're right - Paul Glaves has contributed many an article on how to identify and fix these problem once they arise. We'd like a different approach: Address the problems BEFORE they arise.

You'll also note that Paul was one of two technical contributors to Bill Shaw's article in MCN. I don't presume to know what Paul's take is on the MOA's involvement or lack of involvement in helping owners address this issue - he can speak for himself here on these pages. But I think it's safe to guess he was aware of Bill's opinions as to what BMW corporate should do and how they should act, and would have withdrawn his contributions if he was not at least somewhat in agreement. Perhaps he even had a chance to review the final draft before it was submitted for publication.

For whatever reason(s), the MOA has either taken the position - or perhaps more accurately - had a position thrust upon it - that it doesn't get involved when product defects ignored by the manufacturer arise.

I, like many owners, would like to know why the MOA ties it's hands behind it's back when it comes to a defective product. As far as I can see it, there are two possible answers. Either there was a formal decision by the MOA that the MOA doesn't get involved in such matters, or, by not getting involved in such matters for many years, it became an unofficial "custom" of the club to stay out of the fray. Either way, I disagree with the end result - a club of 40,000 owners and/or aficionados of the marque that refuses to use it's built-in clout for the benefit the members by engaging BMW on a discussion and possible resolution to these two serious design/manufacturing defects.

While I earn my living from the legal field, I am opposed to class-action lawsuits or individual litigation until all other avenues have been exhausted. The clout of the MOA seems like an exceedingly promising avenue for obtaining answers from BMW corporate - if only we can figure out a way to engage the MOA in engaging BMW corporate.

This is an important discussion, and it obviously needs to continue. Attempts to shut it down with refrains about how we've discussed this "ad nauseum" don't serve any purpose except to fan the flames of discontent. This issue will die a natural death when it ceases to be a concern for those of us owning the affected models.

[ArthurKnowles]

I personally do not see anything to make me believe BMW is putting out a "defective" product. There may be mechanical/electrical issues, but not what I would call defective or design issues. What I have seen/read about has always been addressed in one way or another. Most under warrenty, some after. Then again, I'm not a mechanical/electrical engineer, just a consumer.

But if you (collective) truely feel that there is a design defect or something, then do something about it! Put your money where your mouth is and hire a lawyer and start a class action lawsuit!!!

Stop whining about it and waiting for someone else to do it for you. Get up and start it yourself! It's not the MOA's job to do it for you. It's not any club or forum's job to do it for you. It's your complaint and therefore your job to do it. Or at least get it started.

I personally do not want my MOA dues involved in any legal disputes with BMW. To me, the MOA is a social club. Information, member programs/discounts, and socialization is why I joined it in the first place. I'd like it to continue to function in the manner it was intended.

[OfficerImpersonator]

I personally do not see anything to make me believe BMW is putting out a "defective" product.

The clutch hub/clutch input shaft issue is clearly a manufacturing defect. The clutch housing and the engine are misaligned at the factory. Furthermore, the clutch input shaft should be an additional 6 mm longer, creating a more robust interface between the two parts.

These two conditions exist when the bike leaves the factory. That is THE definition of a manufacturing defect.

What OUR club does in response to these identified and well-known defects is up to US, and your post certainly represents a valid point of view.

Personally, I joined this club because I wanted to be in touch with other owners to discuss maintenance and repairs, to band together when circumstances warrant, and to have access to the Anonymous Book. I've never been to a rally and might never go due to family constraints. Any socializing I do in this club takes place on the pages of this website.

[awagnon]

Stop whining about it and waiting for someone else to do it for you. Get up and start it yourself! It's not the MOA's job to do it for you. It's not any club or forum's job to do it for you. It's your complaint and therefore your job to do it. Or at least get it started.

I personally do not want my MOA dues involved in any legal disputes with BMW. To me, the MOA is a social club. Information, member programs/discounts, and socialization is why I joined it in the first place. I'd like it to continue to function in the manner it was intended.

Who is asking MOA to file suit against BMW? All I'm asking is for the MOA to represent it's membership by asking for information, which many of us as individuals have been unable to obtain. What are the facts? What is the failure rate? What is an acceptable failure rate? You are certainly welcome to ignore what seems to be a significant problem for many BMW owners. Respected mechanics and engineers have indicated there should hardly be any spline failures on a properly designed and manufactured clutch / transmission interface. However, there appears to be splines failing at a significant rate, and now final drives. And no, these are not always covered by warranty. Read the posts. Mine and many others weren't covered. This could be an artifact of the internet or a defective product. How would it hurt if the MOA would just use it's clout with 40,000 members and ask a few questions. All it would take would be an editorial and an open letter to BMW in the Owner's News. This would hardly cost anything of your precious dues. By the way, we pay dues also.

[knary]

Scott,

I'd disagree with your position that someone's perception of the MOA's lack of cojones is misleading or inaccurate. Perceptions are perceptions, not fact, and thus not so easy to summarily dismiss.

Ok. What value is a perception held after receiving more accurate information? :brow

I give. If you want to change the mission of the MOA, I sincerely suggest you try starting with simple facts and a liberal dose of honey. Accusations and allegations won't get you far (see your last "perception" filled thread on the subject (http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showthread.php?t=26061)).

Have a nice day and enjoy the rest of your clearly sunny life. :D

[ArthurKnowles]

Who is asking MOA to file suit against BMW? All I'm asking is for the MOA to represent it's membership by asking for information, which many of us as individuals have been unable to obtain. What are the facts? What is the failure rate? What is an acceptable failure rate?

If all you want is isnformation, why not ask for a sticky to be posted where members can provide that informaiton. Other forums have such, and you can always go look at them (BMWLT.Com, BMWST.Com, etc.), but you'll only see failures and not the greater percentage of members that have no failures. A poll of both might provide better results.

As for an open letter, you can do that yourself and ask the MOA to publish it in the next ON Magazine. Why ask the MOA to do it for you when you can do it yourself?


You are certainly welcome to ignore what seems to be a significant problem for many BMW owners.


I'm not ignoring it at all. Otherwise I wouldn't be posting on the thread. I just don't see it as anyone's issue other than the owner considering that the issues seem to occur when the motorcycle is out of warrenty. Out of warrenty means (to me) that the onus is upon the owner to repair the problem. They can ask BMW (best to do so therough your delaer if you really want a chance at support) for assistance, and if givenshold be appreciated, but is definitely not required.


Respected mechanics and engineers have indicated there should hardly be any spline failures on a properly designed and manufactured clutch / transmission interface. However, there appears to be splines failing at a significant rate, and now final drives.


I haven't seen and "significant" numbers, just a few threads on them here and again. Even on the LT forum where the FD issue is a major complain the total seems to be about 4%. That means 96% or better have no issues. Plus it did appear to be year/model related as BMW did make adjustements.

But I will admit that it would be nice to see the manufacturer's number to make a more informermed opinion. Getting it though will most likely reauire legal action as no manufacturer wants to make public any falure rate of any product. This is why I doubt an open letter will do any good, but there is no reason not to try.


And no, these are not always covered by warranty. Read the posts. Mine and many others weren't covered.


Perhaps I misunderstood your post and some of the others, but my understanding was these were motorcycles that were either purchased used and out of warrenty or purchased new and out of warrenty. If out of warrenty, why should BMW be held accountable? Again, not that you can't ask for assitance (via your delaer once more is the best way to get it) from BMW, but one should not assume it will be given. Or demand it. Just my opinion.

I also feel that an extended warrenty (for when the factory warrenty expires) is there for just such problems. I see many postings on extended warrenties being a waste of money from people that have not had a problem ... yet.


How would it hurt if the MOA would just use it's clout with 40,000 members and ask a few questions. All it would take would be an editorial and an open letter to BMW in the Owner's News. This would hardly cost anything of your precious dues.

I guess I'd have to ask what clout? For it to have real meaning, the MOA would need to ask each member via a poll (online or via e-mail) or pettition to back up their claim of 40,000 members wanting to know/obtain the information. Once more, you could do the same yourself. That's generally how a class action lawsuit starts.

If you really want to go that far, you should register your own domain name on the internet and put the poll/petition online and have people fill out a contact form so you can provide it to BMW and request the information or to a lawyer. You might even be able to do it for free on various web hosting sites.


By the way, we pay dues also.

I know you do, and I wasn't claiming otherwise. I merely stated my opinion that I didn't want the MOA focused on providing a service outside their stated bylaws. Namely legal action/advocacy group. I like the MOA focused on what it is currently doing.

I think that if you want to change that, then you (collective) need to work within the MOA framework and see how many other members agree with you. Then go from there.

[AnnapolisAirhead]

I have seen the aftermarket input shaft. But my only concern is if i do the work myself or use aftermarket parts, ultimately...i dont have any recourse if it were to happen again. At least if i use the dealer, there is some record of it happening, and maybe (but doubtfuly) some recourse available:dunno

Sounds like you wouldn't really have any further recourse, according to the response they gave you:

Sent an email to BMW Motorrad USA. This is what i got in return:
<snip>... The request for assistance would be reviewed by this representative, and the service manager would notify you of the consultant's decision. Any and all determinations will be final. ...<snip>...Regards,Casey RoachBMW Motorrad USA

Sounds like the next recourse would be an organized group and a class action law suit (and I do detest lawyers). If there were a collective group, with detailed stories and if this issue causes, has cause or could reasonably cause bodily injury or death--the manufacturer would bear the brunt of those potentially expensive settlements.

...makes me think and rethink the prospect of buying an RT-P.

[johnnyjs1]

Sounds like you wouldn't really have any further recourse, according to the response they gave you:



Sounds like the next recourse would be an organized group and a class action law suit (and I do detest lawyers). If there were a collective group, with detailed stories and if this issue causes, has cause or could reasonably cause bodily injury or death--the manufacturer would bear the brunt of those potentially expensive settlements.

...makes me think and rethink the prospect of buying an RT-P.

I will hopefully find out exactly what is going on with my bike on Tuesday. The BMW Rep. will be there( I assume because there are 2 more bikes sitting in their shop with the same problem). If he says "Out of warranty, not our problem". I will pay the dealer for doing the tear-down, take my bike back, along with the defective clutch parts, purchase the aftermarket shaft and do the repairs myself. I can guarentee the Rep. will want to take the defective parts with him. If he wants to take em, he'll have to pay for em, to the tune of brand new parts:p . Many have made the mistake of paying 100% for the repairs, and letting BMW keep the failed parts. Those are YOUR parts guys, you have every right to keep them, you paid for them, dont let BMW keep em, the more failed parts available to the public, the harder it will be to sweep the issue under the rug

[R100RS]

I've heard it questioned a few times from different people "why doesn't the MOA publish an article about the clutch spline or final drive failures." Without insider knowledge, I'll venture that the primary reason is because they haven't received an article about it to publish. The Owner's News is not written by Vince, but by you and me. I did set aside three or four issues of ON where Paul Glaves specifically discusses final drive failures, so it has at least been discussed before.

I would venture that if someone submitted an objective, well researched and well written article on clutch spline or final drive failure that it WOULD be published by the ON. I think such an article would be extremely beneficial to the readership and could be a first step to opening the eyes of BMWNA. Try and estimate a failure rate, research and discuss possible causes and potential "fixes." Get an interview or at least some quotes from BMW (heck even some "no comment" or "we don't discuss that" quotes from some higher-ups would be great).

[BeemerMike]

NHSTA will do nothing until people start getting hurt due to the FDand Spline failures. Its a shame, that it will take serious injury or even death before they do an investigation and demand for a recall:cry

FYI - "NHTSA" stands for "National Highway Traffic SAFETY Administration". By definition, and by statutory charge, NHTSA only gets involved if there is a SAFETY issue. If you look at the product recalls driven by NHTSA investigations (e.g., as included in MCN), you will see there is always a safety concern connected to the failure or defect. I do not believe NHTSA has authority to get involved in non-safety-related product defects (i.e., defects that only involve reliability). That's not to say you should not keep communicating with NHTSA to keep the issue(s) in front of them, but yes, there will have to be an injury potential from FD and spline failures before NHTSA will get involved (hint, hint).

But, somebody may have better information on NHTSA's statutory authority.

[OfficerImpersonator]

Ok. What value is a perception held after receiving more accurate information? :brow

I give. If you want to change the mission of the MOA, I sincerely suggest you try starting with simple facts and a liberal dose of honey. Accusations and allegations won't get you far (see your last "perception" filled thread on the subject (http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showthread.php?t=26061)).

Have a nice day and enjoy the rest of your clearly sunny life. :D

Scott,

There is no reason for you to patronize me. If there are factual problems with any post I've made on THIS thread, then kindly educate me.

I made a mistake on a prior post and have paid for that over and over again. Apparently you think I should still pay a price for something that happened a couple of months ago. I cleared the air with Dave over the incident, and all is now as it should be. That thread has no bearing on this thread. My comments posted in this thread are accurate to the best of my knowledge and my perceptions and opinions are unchanged by your attempts to change the subject.

Thanks so much for your constructive comments in moving this issue forward.

[will3hawks]

The BMW Car Club has a specifically appointed Ombudsman to straighten out just this sort of problem and it seems like an idea we should consider.

Indeed in both the car and motorcycle clubs there is a contingent of members who are so intoxicated with the brand that their first commandment is "Thou shalt NEVER criticize BMW, no matter how off the mark they are", (and quite frankly, that group ought to be ignored in these situations). If indeed we are a fraternity worth it's salt, we ought to be about the business of assisting our members when they are not being dealt with fairly. As I said in an earlier post, BMW AG are an extremely arrogant group and said arrogance has led to class action suits in the past. They could avoid a lot of bad press by simply stepping up and acknowledging the problem, but this goes against their nature. Just as they have denied the surging problems in the 259 engine, they are now attempting to avoid dealing with the final drive issue.

[kantuckid]

I personally do not see anything to make me believe BMW is putting out a "defective" product. There may be mechanical/electrical issues, but not what I would call defective or design issues. What I have seen/read about has always been addressed in one way or another. Most under warrenty, some after. Then again, I'm not a mechanical/electrical engineer, just a consumer.

But if you (collective) truely feel that there is a design defect or something, then do something about it! Put your money where your mouth is and hire a lawyer and start a class action lawsuit!!!

Stop whining about it and waiting for someone else to do it for you. Get up and start it yourself! It's not the MOA's job to do it for you. It's not any club or forum's job to do it for you. It's your complaint and therefore your job to do it. Or at least get it started.

I personally do not want my MOA dues involved in any legal disputes with BMW. To me, the MOA is a social club. Information, member programs/discounts, and socialization is why I joined it in the first place. I'd like it to continue to function in the manner it was intended.

I was curious if you have a job application on file with BMWNA???If not , you will certainly make a great "corporate guy"! No offense intended!BMWNA:heart BMWNA

[kantuckid]

I applaud the efforts of those like P.. Glaves and the technical articles they have provided for ON. Past surveys have shown that is the main/one of reason many of us read the mag. I worked in skilled trades for years to include pulling wrenches(never on bikes for $) and my more recent career was technical education. It is a fact that many "greasy persons" are not the article writing kind and so there is somewhat of a disconnect as to the poll of people that are out there capable of writing substantial tech stuff for us. Another factor is ,and I speak from experience, the wrench pullers are very busy earning a living and simply don't have the time/energy for writing this stuff we want to read. It is noteworthy that there are many Ed letters in ON about "nice " service experiences and mostly none about poor ones. While I guess it is good to promote the better ones, it also might serve some purpose to put some of the other kind when in proper context of making a proactive effort.
On the other hand, there is absolutely no reason that the writers of ON, as previously stated cannot be proactive towards are interests as rider owners of these machines. They have the time, writing skills and contact opportunity to make it an effective effort.
Why is it such a controversial issue for the club to be an advocate for we members when the time arises? I sense that some persons are overly sensitive to calling the kettle black?I am sure this is probably not the first time this has been a matter of discussion within this club, but I would like to see it addressed by the present leadership beyond this limited forum discussion.
This notion of blow money @ the dealer so they will be your friend when the product proves to have problems is not what all of us want to do. I live many miles from a dealer for any kind of bike and have skill to perform most service/maintenance myself, so not very interested in bleeding my wallet and travel time to a dealer.
FWIW ,I was at a funeral 2 days ago and a relative of my wife asked me (when she saw my BMW sedan) about a friend of hers saying that it cost $400 for an oil change for her car , and was it really true and do you really have to take them to the dealer and spend that much? Well, I answered , they probably performed such and such inspection,, which costs more, but to answer her directly, I had to say that many people go to the dealer and pay big bucks for not much more than an oil change and certainly think they're doing the right thing, whereas they could get an oil change many places for much less.Any car/bike greasy guy can tell you a story about an expensive repair- I remember a relative that was complaining to me of a 1980's headlight replacement on her Caddy that was over $200 and fuming because they had a friend take it in for them, then saw the bill.

If this is just a social club , I am confused, as many say they belong to read the mag and obviously many are not in it for the rallies or there would be close to 40k present for the national.

Where this goes, I hope, is to the top of this club, because I ride this bike and lack confidence in my ride @ this point...:D

[kantuckid]

[QUOTE=will3hawks;356176]The BMW Car Club has a specifically appointed Ombudsman to straighten out just this sort of problem and it seems like an idea we should consider.

Indeed in both the car and motorcycle clubs there is a contingent of members who are so intoxicated with the brand that their first commandment is "Thou shalt NEVER criticize BMW, no matter how off the mark they are", (and quite frankly, that group ought to be ignored in these situations). If indeed we are a fraternity worth it's salt, we ought to be about the business of assisting our members when they are not being dealt with fairly. As I said in an earlier post, BMW AG are an extremely arrogant group and said arrogance has led to class action suits in the past. They could avoid a lot of bad press by simply stepping up and acknowledging the problem, but this goes against their nature. Just as they have denied the surging problems in the 259 engine, they are now attempting to avoid dealing with the final drive issue.[/QUOTE

++++1 on your comments!!! I will add that I belonged & read the car club mag for years and once sent in a letter(a proactive letter!) telling of a service issue that put a BMW dealer in a poor light and they refused to publish it, saying they didn't want to get into negative issues, so go figure...

[johnnyjs1]

Should know something this afternoon about my bike. BMW Rep. is at my dealer today, hopefully they will go to bat for me:cry

[awagnon]

Should know something this afternoon about my bike. BMW Rep. is at my dealer today, hopefully they will go to bat for me:cry

Wow...! On a Monday. Good luck.

[johnnyjs1]

Wow...! On a Monday. Good luck.

today is Tuesday:whistle

[sjbmw]

I bought a 2004 Honda element in Jan 2005. Within weeks, I had a windshield crack.
Not from debris, but a type that is caused by a stress in the frame.

I thought I was stuck for 2 years until I got a letter in the mail from a Cali attorney, who was looking for 2003, and 2004 Element owners with windshield problems.

Ya man, over here.....Seems the 2003, 2004 Elements had a frame defect, that caused windshield cracks.

This attorney got new windshields for thousands of Element owners, including me.
It took about a year and a half of class action lawsuit until Honda caved.

I have to find that lawyer's name..... this final drive issue would seem like child's play for him..

[OfficerImpersonator]

It's too bad there isn't a thread that covers all bikes affected by similar problems. These defects aren't exclusive to K-bikes or R-bikes. Virtually identical threads are running in the K-bike, Oilhead and Hexhead tech forums.

When the manufacturer installs common components on different bikes, the arrangement of our web site prevents K-bike owners from commiserating with Oilhead and Hexhead owners, and vice-versa.

Any interest in petitioning the club for a new subcategory of the Tech Forum where we can talk about components our bikes share in common, regardless of engine type?

[johnnyjs1]

Ok...so i call the dealer at 5:30 and ask for the service manager. The phone op. acts as a go between. I ask for the status of my bike, he says the clutch is removed. I ask about what the rep said, he tells me....i dont think BMW is going to cover any of the repairs, but he said he will try and get something done with his managers. I say, "Tell dave(service manager) that I will be there first thing in the morning to pick up the parts that were removed so i can get em tested." He says, "uhhhh, ummmm, call first thing in the morning". I say.."the rep. better not have taken any of MY parts with him as it is my legal right and the law that i get MY parts back if i want them." He says...."ummm I'm not sure, call dave in the morning." Looks like I'm paying for repairs myself. Way to go BMW!!! I have been advised by a friend that if the rep took my parts, I can go file a police report for theft of personal property :dunno

[GSAddict]

Ok...so i call the dealer at 5:30 and ask for the service manager. The phone op. acts as a go between. I ask for the status of my bike, he says the clutch is removed. I ask about what the rep said, he tells me....i dont think BMW is going to cover any of the repairs, but he said he will try and get something done with his managers. I say, "Tell dave(service manager) that I will be there first thing in the morning to pick up the parts that were removed so i can get em tested." He says, "uhhhh, ummmm, call first thing in the morning". I say.."the rep. better not have taken any of MY parts with him as it is my legal right and the law that i get MY parts back if i want them." He says...."ummm I'm not sure, call dave in the morning." Looks like I'm paying for repairs myself. Way to go BMW!!! I have been advised by a friend that if the rep took my parts, I can go file a police report for theft of personal property :dunno

Get them hardness tested (most any gear shop can do this) and let me know what the figures are, we can compare to my figures.
What would be really interesting is if someone were to buy a new clutch disc and input shaft and get those figures also. My guess would be that nothing has changed.
Please keep us all posted.

[GlobalRider]

Yup...just happened yesterday afternoon, 2004 R1150r Rockster with 16k...Clutch Spline Failure. Unbelievable that BMW continues to deny any problems with this:scratch

Take legal action for the repairs!

I take it you are talking about the clutch splines on the transmission input shaft or those in the clutch disk.

These clutch splines are marginally smaller than those on a car and those on a car have far more load on them, yet I can't ever remember hearing of clutch splines failing on a car...not to mention they also don't need to be lubed a kazillion times per year.

QA seems to be a real issue!

[johnnyjs1]

Just got off the phone with the dealer. Gee guess what? The Rep. said they were not going to do anything about it.:german . The service manager said that the input shaft was "barely worn", and it is the clutch disk that is worn. Estimate of $1200 to get it fixed. Is this something that I can do myself? I am seriously thinking of going to get my bike and doing it myself. Hurray for BMW!!!!:thumb

[GlobalRider]

Estimate of $1200 to get it fixed. Is this something that I can do myself? I am seriously thinking of going to get my bike and doing it myself. Hurray for BMW!!!!:thumb

If you're willing to take your time, sure.

See if these guys are still on-line and download the factory BMW repair manual. Then see if anyone experienced in your area is willing to help.

Repair Manual Club dot Com (http://www.repairmanualclub.com)

And if all else fails...
Honda ST1300 (http://powersports.honda.com/motorcycles/touring_sport_touring/model.asp?ModelName=ST1300&ModelYear=2008&ModelId=ST13008)
Insert key and just drive. ;)

[ArthurKnowles]

Is this something that I can do myself? I am seriously thinking of going to get my bike and doing it myself. Hurray for BMW!!!!:thumb

Sorry to hear that BMW decided not to help, but you can do it yourself. Many other's have already. But if the motorcycle is already apart, you may want to reconsider if you have to pay for the takedown/rebuild anyway.

If you can't find a manual online, send me a PM and I'll see what I can do to help.

[rocketman]

Maybe I'm missing something here but if as you say the dealer found that the splines aren't worn and its only the clutch (which is a normal wear part) on an almost 5 year old bike, why would BMW be expected to replace it? I could see it if it was from something else failing, but clutches can wear from a number of factors that are beyond BMW's control such as the way its ridden, nothing you have mentioned seems to indicate they found another cause such as defective parts.

RM

[GlobalRider]

Maybe I'm missing something here but if as you say the dealer found that the splines aren't worn and its only the clutch (which is a normal wear part) on an almost 5 year old bike, why would BMW be expected to replace it?

He stated "clutch spline wear" in the first post.

If that really is the case, the clutch disc has a flange in the center with splines that the transmission input shaft mates with. That flange would have to be pretty soft material to wear out. In the life of a disc, it shouldn't wear at all.

Now if we're talking clutch disc wear, thats another matter.

[bmwmick]

Just got off the phone with the dealer. Gee guess what? The Rep. said they were not going to do anything about it.:german . The service manager said that the input shaft was "barely worn", and it is the clutch disk that is worn. Estimate of $1200 to get it fixed. Is this something that I can do myself? I am seriously thinking of going to get my bike and doing it myself. Hurray for BMW!!!!:thumb

Johnny,
I'd have to see pictures of the wear before I'd make a judgment. If the clutch hub splines are worn to the point that they are slipping on the input shaft splines, they should still cover it. If the fiction surface of the clutch is worn to the point it is slipping between the clutch plate and the pressure plate, then they are correct, normal wear.

Good luck :banghead :banghead

[GlobalRider]

The service manager said that the input shaft was "barely worn", and it is the clutch disk that is worn.

Geez its tough to get accurate information!

What, the friction material or the clutch splines are worn on the disc?

[GlobalRider]

If the fiction surface of the clutch is worn to the point it is slipping between the clutch plate and the pressure plate, then they are correct, normal wear.

16K miles is not considered normal wear for a clutch disc. Of course, if depends on the rider. Most of us can go over 100K miles on a disc. In fact if there is no slip, it'll never wear at all and slip only occurs during starts and shifting.

[rocketman]

He stated "clutch spline wear" in the first post.

If that really is the case, the clutch disc has a flange in the center with splines that the transmission input shaft mates with. That flange would have to be pretty soft material to wear out. In the life of a disc, it shouldn't wear at all.

Now if we're talking clutch disc wear, thats another matter.

Yes, I read that but then I also read where he just today said the dealer said the plines were Not worn... therefore NO spline failure....

and the 78 that I got in 99 had 22K on it and by 30K it needed a new clutch, everything else in there was fine so obviously the PO(s) didn't have clue how to handle a BMW dry clutch, I now have 175K on it still the same clutch, so that's 140K and still going strong..

RM

[johnnyjs1]

I'm picking up the parts tomorrow....I will post pictures of Exactly what is going on. From what he stated, the Shaft splines are "barely worn" and the clutch splines on the disk are gone.

[bmwmick]

I'm picking up the parts tomorrow....I will post pictures of Exactly what is going on. From what he stated, the Shaft splines are "barely worn" and the clutch splines on the disk are gone.


If that is true, then the clutch 'hub' was clearly defective. At 16K miles there should be almost imperceptible wear on the hub splines and the input shaft splines. I've had some apart that look like new at 110K miles.

I will bet that there is significant wear on the input shaft splines, probably in a 'barrel' shape.

Good luck!

[OfficerImpersonator]

I've scanned my copy of the MCN article - if anyone would like a copy of the PDF, send me a PM and I'll be happy to email you a copy.

[nrpetersen]

As a retired mechanical engineer, I really want to see detailed pictures please. At least then I'll give give you my opinion FWIW. Frankly I've never taken a BMW FD or clutch housing apart or even seen the inside of them (fingers crossed). But I have had a lot of experience designing and assembling other gearboxes and bearing systems etc including having a couple of experiences proving to me what doesn't work.

Unfortunately, there have previously been indications of a random manufacturing quality problem involving engine/transmission alignment. What I can't understand is why BMW hasn't been able to correct this in later models. Or is it really something else? I find it hard to believe it is simply arrogance, as to me it would border more on manufacturing and warranty cost control stupidity.

In the OP case, assuming it is still a spline problem, I can't give an opinion until runout of the engine/transmission is measured. It takes a jury rigged setup on the fully disassembled transmission to do this, to confirm a reason for premature failure.

Remember spline wear rates are hugely dependent on shaft rotational axes (mis)alignments.

[Motorcyclist]

I'm picking up the parts tomorrow....I will post pictures of Exactly what is going on. From what he stated, the Shaft splines are "barely worn" and the clutch splines on the disk are gone.

Defective part, and I'd 2nd the advice to check out the input spline carefully for deformation.

If you don't need to replace the spline, you can do the work yourself, check out ADVRider.com, they have a "wisdom" area that has step by step instructions for that sort of repair. You'll need to buy a clutch centering tool (or fabricate one), but not a whole lot of other special tools. If the input spline is bad, you'd need to open the transmission, a place I'm not comfortable going (but you may be).

If you want BMW to listen, try the small claims route. Best $35 I ever spent!

Good luck!

[StLouRider]

Is this problem inherent to the R1150 or all the newer oilhead models?

+1.. I have a 97 GS. I had it at dealer yesterday for 72,000 mi service. I asked about the splines and was told that was only on the earlier model bikes..

Should something have been looked at? My actual mileage is 79,000 (had 73,000 on it when I bought it in April.) Everything else looked good except the front brake master cylinder.. It's leaking arounf the site glass. Does not look "rebuildable."
BMW will sell me a replacement for $400!!
:violin

Holy Crap Batman!!

[Motor31]

Clutch spline wear is neither an operator malfunction or a service error. It's a part defect or assembly problem. In either case BMW really "owns" the problem but is simply ignoring it whenever they can.

[Brownie]

Didn't one of the gurus write about this recently in one of the Beemer pubs?????

[OfficerImpersonator]

Are you talking about Bill Shaw's article in this month's Motorcycle Consumer News, or are you thinking of something else?

[kantuckid]

I hope somebody out there finds that high-powered lawyer thats going to get all our bikes fixed! BTW, I am working on a Yamaha 49cc scooter that I bought as a non- runner and the rear wheel was a little loose and when I removed it , the wobble was coming from the wheel splines , not the drive shaft stub.Looks like soft metal splines isn't limited to the Teutonic types. Maybe I can use the same guy to help get the scoot repaired?I just got a $265 check from the Burley Tobacco Cooperative class action suit-the lawyer/s got $49 x198,000 people while we(the tobacco base owners) got the couple of hundred of our own $.
I had to get this in, as I just can't miss a chance to dis a lawyer$ :brad $

[johnnyjs1]

Very impressive....The dealer offered me $2700 for my bike on trade. Again its an 04 Rockster 16K Bags, Mayer seats, touring screen, fog lights, lotsa other add ons, not a scratch on it. Pretty good deal huh?:deal :clap

[knary]

Very impressive....The dealer offered me $2700 for my bike on trade. Again its an 04 Rockster 16K Bags, Mayer seats, touring screen, fog lights, lotsa other add ons, not a scratch on it. Pretty good deal huh?:deal :clap

:ha

Yikes

[bmwmick]

Very impressive....The dealer offered me $2700 for my bike on trade. Again its an 04 Rockster 16K Bags, Mayer seats, touring screen, fog lights, lotsa other add ons, not a scratch on it. Pretty good deal huh?:deal :clap


Johnny,
Did you get your parts back yet? Can't wait to see the pics.

If that $2700 had one more zero, I might take them up on it. :) What a bunch of bozo's:bluduh

[ArthurKnowles]

Very impressive....The dealer offered me $2700 for my bike on trade. Again its an 04 Rockster 16K Bags, Mayer seats, touring screen, fog lights, lotsa other add ons, not a scratch on it. Pretty good deal huh?:deal :clap

Being in the market to sell my LT, I'd have to say the dealer offered you a fair price for it. The KBB trade in value is only 5.2 ~ 5.8 K and that for a motorcycle in operating condition. Your's needs some expensive work. So the dealer will take that in to consideration when making an offer. He probbaly just looked at the KBB trade-in value and subtracted the cost of the work to be performed. Granted, he probably pays less for parts & labor then you would, but it's still a fair value.

You would probably be better off to restore your motorcycle to stock (you did keep the opriginal parts didn't you?) and sell all the farkles seperately. Plus if you sell your motorcycle to a private party, you can usually get more money for it

[johnnyjs1]

GREAT NEWS!!! Not only are the splines on the clutch disk worn to the nubs, but the input shaft splines are gone too . From the original quote of $1280 to $2120. Naturally the Rep never even looked at the bike when he was there, no warranty, no help. What do you guys think I could make parting the whole bike out? Or do I fix it, ride it the rest of the season and sell it at the beginning of next season? Think I'm gonna throw up just thinking about it. One thing for sure though, I will never own another BMW again.

[bmwmick]

GREAT NEWS!!! Not only are the splines on the clutch disk worn to the nubs, but the input shaft splines are gone too . From the original quote of $1280 to $2120. Naturally the Rep never even looked at the bike when he was there, no warranty, no help. What do you guys think I could make parting the whole bike out? Or do I fix it, ride it the rest of the season and sell it at the beginning of next season? Think I'm gonna throw up just thinking about it. One thing for sure though, I will never own another BMW again.


Another factory defect ignored by bmw/na :doh Can you post some pics? Is the wear on the input shaft barrel shaped? Splines gone at front and rear but sort of OK in the middle?
I think I would look for a used transmission and just put a new friction disc in it and ride it. Your engine-to-transmission alignment is most probably the cause of your problem. If you just replace the worn parts, it'll fail again in about the same number of miles. 16K is VERY low miles for this failure and you should be able to measure the mis-alignment.

[johnnyjs1]

Pickin up the part on Friday...I'll get pics up ASAP

[bmwmick]

Pickin up the part on Friday...I'll get pics up ASAP

I'll be back from the 3Flags on 9/6 or so, no rush now. :))

[40405]

I have doing alittle after the fact research on this spline problem after I suffered the same failure. I lost my splines on my way home from the AMA Mid Ohio races. It cost me a little over 2K with the parts and UHaul rental. I did the repairs myself so there was no labor, just a few more additions to my tool collection. From what I see, my shaft showed no evidence of being lubed at the factory. I also agree with the chap that thinks the shaft is too short. Unfortunatly, I didn't measure the replacement shaft. What I did discover is that there has been a change in the input shaft design over the years. Mine is a 2000 R1100R built post 7/2000. Meaning I had to buy the whole assembly, not just the shaft. Now the box shifts better than new.

[gardner17756]

I spied a nice looking r1100s in excellant condition at Hermy's BMW dealership. For a fleeting moment I thought about discussing trading my 95 r1100rsl on it. Then I thought about this spline issue. Am I safe to assume that with 37,000 miles on my 95 that I am immune from this problem? Would it be a reasonable request to have a BMW dealership tear down and inspect the assembly prior to selling a used cycle with 26,000 miles on it? Thanks in advance.

[moondog]

Is this problem only the Rockster or all R-bikes and what years? I just found this thread I am looking into an R-bike and retire the K-bike.

[40405]

I have no idea what percentage of the oilheads have this problem. I think it lives in the R1100 and 1150 models. Road test the considered bike. If the clutch feels like it's hanging up at all, don't accept the bike at book value, knock off the price of the repair, or ask the selling dealer to cover the possibility of repare for an agreed time period. The parts alone cost me a little over 1K.

[awagnon]

Didn't one of the gurus write about this recently in one of the Beemer pubs?????

Yes. Anton wrote a very good article about clutch spline failures in the BMW RA magazine, On the Level, about a year ago, I think. I can get the exact issue information if you need it.

Is this problem only the Rockster or all R-bikes and what years?

No. Seems to be more common with the GS and RT's. There was a survey on the BMW Sport Touring forum and the most failures was on the 2002 RT (mine failed). But, that forum is mainly about RT's, so it will seem to have the most failures. There are other forums collecting data an failures, so the information is somewhat scattered across several forums.

[johnnyjs1]

I have doing alittle after the fact research on this spline problem after I suffered the same failure. I lost my splines on my way home from the AMA Mid Ohio races. It cost me a little over 2K with the parts and UHaul rental. I did the repairs myself so there was no labor, just a few more additions to my tool collection. From what I see, my shaft showed no evidence of being lubed at the factory. I also agree with the chap that thinks the shaft is too short. Unfortunatly, I didn't measure the replacement shaft. What I did discover is that there has been a change in the input shaft design over the years. Mine is a 2000 R1100R built post 7/2000. Meaning I had to buy the whole assembly, not just the shaft. Now the box shifts better than new.

Your kidding right?? Yours failed going home from Mid Ohio too? We coulda held hands and comforted each other while Mother F*&@ing BMW:german

[bmdubyou]

Belt drives sound pretty good about now huh! I Loved the belt on my old Kawasaki 440. no lube, no muss no fuss!

[johnnyjs1]

Not the best pictures but here they are:

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd259/johnnyjs1/P9050636.jpg

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd259/johnnyjs1/P9050635.jpg

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd259/johnnyjs1/P9050618-1.jpg

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd259/johnnyjs1/P9050617.jpg