No Synthetic Oil Until 10k?? [Archive]

NomadicBob

07-23-2008, 09:26 PM

I waited until 16K miles on my R1150, maybe I was too easy on it during break in, but it took that long before oil consumption went to almost zero, then I knew the rings were seated. With the Nikasil lining on the cylinder walls in the BMW, it does take longer. Then I use Amsoil 20W-50 motorcycle oil summer and winter; I don't ride when it's colder than 40 degrees F. I have used Castrol Actevo in the past with excellent results also. My experience with BMW's has been the engine will always outlast the rest of the bike, the electrics, the final drive, etc. frustrate the h... out of you. And the scarcity of dealers... I hear a Honda in my future calling me....

deilenberger

07-23-2008, 10:50 PM

I think the decision is still out on using synthetic during break-in.. since all BMW cars use it now from new, apparently the car side thinks it's OK. If you're going to sweat it - wait until the engine stops using any significant oil (less than 500cc's between changes) and then switch to synthetic. I changed at my 6,000 mile service, and the bike uses about 150-200cc's between 6k changes (not enough to bother adding oil..) It's at 17k miles now (1 year old..)

You should note that BMW oil has different specifications for extreme wear/pressure additives than most commercially available oils, dino or synthetic. BMW oils are generally rated API-SG/SH, which was the last rating before some of the extreme pressure additives were removed from car oils to help prolong the life of catalytic converters. That said - analysis I've seen shows that many "heavier" oils, (15W-50) with newer ratings than SG/SH - DO have the older levels of the extreme pressure additives since the EPA didn't require the heavier oils to remove them.

I use BMW oil while the bike is under warranty. It would avoid any discussion with BMW about oil induced engine damage if there was an engine problem. It would simply be a non-issue. There might not be a problem with using other oil, including the V-Twin synthetic, but I'd rather not be in the situation of having to prove it if I needed to make a warranty claim. (And yes - I know ALL about Magnusson-Moss act - and I'm sure it applies, but I don't want to have to prove it.) BMW at one point issued a notice (SIB) to the dealers stating that use of oils other than SG/SH rated would be considered a reason to deny engine warranty coverage. Using their oil puts that concern to rest for me. Once my warranty is up - I can return to using standard Mobil-1 15W-50 oil (I have 4 gallons sitting in my oil cabinet..) as I've used on BMWs for years.

leadfoot

07-24-2008, 06:55 AM

Thanks for the explaination Don. You hit on every one of my questions. I noticed the other day that the bike had used some oil, and I brought it back up. I am going to start a log in order to track consumption & mileage. I guess I better get to the BMW dealer and have some ready for the break in period. I am absolutely comfortable with the consumption if it is expected, so no worries here. Excellent point regarding the warranty period. I will use BMW specific oil once I change to synthetic. I am assuming that there is a BMW synthetic product....correct? Thanks again for the info, I am going to get my first experience adjusting valves this weekend, and am looking forward to it. Just like the old days with a solid cam in a SB Chevy! LOL

Greenwald

07-24-2008, 08:05 AM

Many of us (my '05 R1200RT included) seem to stop 'using' oil around the 8 - 10,000 mile range.

As long as a warrantied bike is going to be serviced at 12,000 miles anyways, that seems to be a good time to switch to synthetic if so inclined.

That's what I did (also on the recommendation of my BMW Master Tech), and ever since, I have not used any fluid and the bike manages heat better than dino oil.

Enjoy the RT!

cjack

07-24-2008, 09:05 AM

deilenberger

07-24-2008, 09:14 AM

Thanks for the explaination Don.
Snip..
I am assuming that there is a BMW synthetic product....correct?
Yup.. a 15W-50, a bit pricey, but.. what the heck it's for my bike..
Thanks again for the info, I am going to get my first experience adjusting valves this weekend, and am looking forward to it. Just like the old days with a solid cam in a SB Chevy! LOLExcept the dual-valve adjustment.. but it is rather a fun job to do actually (if you're not doing it for a living..)

leadfoot

07-24-2008, 11:14 AM

PGlaves

07-24-2008, 12:32 PM

Thanks Don, and contributors! Looks like I am on the right track. I was wondering when I got the RT if I could perform service like I have on my HD since new, now I am confident with things. Just need to use some good common sense and have fun. :clap

Now if I can stop riding long enough for a cold valve adjustment.....

Thanks gain

I've said often, and repeat again, at least 90 percent of the work you do on any motor vehicle is just solid fundamental mechanics. Good shop practice. Much of the other 10 percent needs only a good manual for specifications, torque values, etc. A small amount is sufficiently model specific that special fixtures or diagnostic tools are needed. Most owners need not go there at all, ever. But if you can change oil in your lawn mower you can change oil in a BMW.

p.s. It's actually harder on the lawnmower I used to have - before I moved to 12 acres of rock and cactus, but not grass, in the Texas Big Bend.

Rpbump

07-24-2008, 03:28 PM

When BMW of Orlando performed my 1,000mile service I was told that it was best to put 10>12K miles on my bike before using synthetic oil. Looking at the oil level sight glass indicates almost no "loss" of oil over the last 5K miles. When the time comes for synthetic oil in the motor I will replace the drive shaft & transmission fluids with synthetic lube. Ride Safe

PGlaves

07-24-2008, 04:14 PM

There are two factors at play here. The obvious one is the sealing of the face of the rings against the surface of the cylinder. A good fit here happens pretty quickly.

The second critical area of sealing is behind and under the rings, where combustion pressures push the rings outward toward the cylinder walls and downward in the groove against the piston land just beneath (toward the crankshaft even if it is on its side) each ring. Here, a modest buildup of varnish completes the sealing process.

This takes some time/miles. Today's manufacturing processes normally shorten the time this takes, but good sealing doesn't happen out of the box.

The best rule of thumb is to wait until oil consumption has tapered off. My R1150R consumed over 3 quarts of oil in the first 600 miles, and another 2 quarts in the next 1000. It dropped of sharply at about 3000 miles and began using an insignificant amount at about 8000 miles. This varies a lot bike to bike and rider to rider. I followed OEM guidelines through the 600 mile service but didn't baby it even then, and certainly not thereafter. Now at about 90K miles it takes no added oil between 6000 mile changes.

Voni's R1100RS was similar in its consumption behavior. Her RSL and S were purchased used so I don't know the early consumption history on them. Her RS at 345K miles takes a dab, say a cup between changes. Her R1100S at 90K uses more than that.

swall

07-24-2008, 06:39 PM

I changed the oil on my R1200R at 4400 miles (my dealer service was done at 1000 miles). I put in Mobil 1 20w-50 "V-Twin" (had a hard time getting past the name) . I have 8800 miles now, and the oil level is still above the half mark on the sight glass. It was about 1/16" below the top after my change, so that is about a pint usage in 4400 miles.

TR250Tom

07-27-2008, 03:55 AM

the oil level is still above the half mark on the sight glass. It was about 1/16" below the top after my change, so that is about a pint usage in 4400 miles.

I'm confused here, I thought the distance between the top and bottom of the ring was 1/2 quart (i.e. one pint). If you went from near the top to the 1/2 mark, isn't that just 8 ounces (one cup?)

I'm disappointed with my R1200R's continuing oil use. In the 1500 miles since the 6K dealer service, I've made it a point not to add any oil, since I was told by the dealer that most people who think their bike uses oil are actually overservicing and blowing out the excess. But I have gone from 3/4 of the sight ring to 1/4, which I calculate (perhaps incorrectly?) as 8 ounces used in just 1500 miles. There are no visible leaks.

I do ride fairly hard, with occaisional nudges against the rev limiter, but it looks like it's not going to seal any better than this. I was careful with the motor when I first got the bike, but it was a dealer demo, so I guess the test rides took their toll. Pity to have to watch the level closely, but I still figure the motor will outlast the rest of the bike.

I plan to switch to synthetic this fall, at around 9K.

Cheers, Tom

swall

07-27-2008, 11:52 AM

Jeez Tom, you're right. I'm using less oil than I thought!

cjack

07-27-2008, 12:42 PM

I'm disappointed with my R1200R's continuing oil use. In the 1500 miles since the 6K dealer service
Cheers, Tom

That's not too bad...like about a quart in 6K. BMW used to have as a limit on oil consumption of 700 miles to 1 qt. I had one of those once. Still put about 93K miles on it.
Some twin owners have said that they have gone as long as something like 30K miles before the oil consumption went down (I don't know from what...).

BobFV1

07-27-2008, 01:38 PM

I have gone to BMW synth in the K1200Ses at the 600 mile check. I used to wait a few thousand miles, but no oil consumption so thought I might as well. Seems fine. No oil consumption on the 2400 mile trip out to WY and back. K bikes, eh?

I went to synth at the 600 mile check on my 1200GS. I never burned a DROP of oil after that, up to 30K when I dumped the bike for my RT. n I never added a single drop of oil to the bike. I used the BMW synth.

My BMW car was delivered with Synth in the big V8 - I have about 2500 miles on the car and it is not due for an oil change until it hits 15K - that car does not evcen have an oil level indicator - the protocol for checking the oil level is to drain the crankase, refill, and measure the amount required to bring it up to full.

TR250Tom

07-27-2008, 07:29 PM

That's not too bad...like about a quart in 6K. BMW used to have as a limit on oil consumption of 700 miles to 1 qt. I had one of those once. Still put about 93K miles on it.
Some twin owners have said that they have gone as long as something like 30K miles before the oil consumption went down (I don't know from what...).

Cjack,

I agree that the consumption isn't dramatic or a warranty item or something like that. If I'd bought a brand new R90S in the '70s, I'd be quite pleased to be using so little. It's just that with the internet, you hear a lot about other people's experiences, and several of the R12X riders on this board have mentioned that their consumption went to virtually zero by 6K.

Thanks for the reassurances, though. They mean a lot coming from someone who's seen as many bikes as you have.

Cheers, Tom

JimVonBaden1

07-27-2008, 09:51 PM

On our recent 7300 mile trip I used about 8 ounces, my friend Kermit none. I have 53K miles on mine, he has 62K miles on his R1200GS. I have always used about a quart per 6K, he never used any.

I guess mine finally broke in!:D

Jim :brow

GrafikFeat

07-27-2008, 10:21 PM

Gonna change the oil & filter on my new RT soon, as well as a valve adjustment. I have heard some say that it is best to wait until after 10K before using synthetic oil. I could not find anything in my manual. My only guess is that non-synthetic oil helps to promote a better break-in. Can anyone confirm or deny this?? I have used Mobil 1 V Twin Synthetic on my HD and it peformed well, but the Boxer is a new bread for me and I want what is best for it. Any preferences?

Oil Tip One: Save your money over Synth. Only thing it saves is time lapse between changes.

Oil Tip Two: When you stop... And before setting it on the side stand count to 30. Or take your helmet and gloves off.
This will give the oil time to drop back down into the sump.
If you stop and lean right away some of the oil will find its way to the left cylinder.
Regardless of how fast you get it on the center stand.
Since starting this procedure I've not smoked one bit. Nor has my oil usage increased.

My oil usage is immeasurable.

Burnszilla

07-28-2008, 01:54 AM

rmeisen

07-28-2008, 06:41 AM

[QUOTE=grafikfeat;350939]Oil Tip One: Save your money over Synth. Only thing it saves is time lapse between changes.

QUOTE]

It also get's better Gas Mileage. I've seen 10% better with just this change. If you ride ALOT, These two things together are significant...

Ron

deilenberger

07-28-2008, 08:21 AM

Is it okay to use API CJ-4, CI-4, CI-4 Plus/SM, SL rated oil? Isn't SM-SL higher and/or better than SG-SH?
http://www.aa1car.com/library/api_motor_oil_classifications.htm
http://www.aa1car.com/library/API_ratings.pdfStephen,

I'll assume this isn't a troll.. :D

The answer is - no - as BMW sees it.

The SM/LS rated oils have less of the extreme pressure additive in them than BMW wants to see. These additives are the "last-chance" additive for oil.. they are generally light rare-metal additives, which are there to provide a metal to metal protective barrier if the oil film breaks down.

It likely would make no difference if you never overheat the engine, and if it never runs without lubricant circulating.

Higher doesn't always equate to better. The lower levels of these additives were set by the EPA to help protect catalytic converters in cars. The goal of the EPA and the goals of motorcyclists aren't always the same. I'm interested in low emissions AND long engine life. The EPA is interested in low emissions.

BeemerMike

07-28-2008, 08:55 AM

The SM/LS rated oils have less of the extreme pressure additive in them than BMW wants to see.

Does anyone know how much additive BMW wants to see? In other words, does anyone know how much ZDDP is in BMW's motorcycle oils (both dino and synthetic)?

Don, as you pointed out in another post (and I provided a spec chart for Mobil 1 oils), the higher viscosity engine oils have tend to have higher ZDDP contents because they are not subject to the lower ZDDP limits of the lower viscosity "eco oils", even though they carry the later SM rating.

GrafikFeat

07-28-2008, 11:18 AM

It also get's better Gas Mileage. I've seen 10% better with just this change. If you ride ALOT, These two things together are significant...

I ride daily 108 rt to work. The only reason I mentioned #1 because two different BMW wrenches telling me that synth really has no benefit. This was after my mentioning the thought of switching over.
Thinking they would up-sell I was surprised. I always do my own oil. It's "required" every 3k on a "C". At 2160 a month in just commuting miles I'd like to lengthen that "change cycle". Both wrenches at different times said "save your money".

Hmmm...

deilenberger

07-28-2008, 12:05 PM

Does anyone know how much additive BMW wants to see? In other words, does anyone know how much ZDDP is in BMW's motorcycle oils (both dino and synthetic)?
BMW hasn't published the number, but let me see if I can dig out my last oil analysis (done on 6k used BMW synthetic oil..)

http://www.eilenberger.net/R1200R_Roadster/r1200r%20oil.jpg

There'ya go.. that's used oil. Dunno what the new numbers are, but here is a link to a similar analysis I had done on my K75 - which had Mobil-1 15W-50 in it (not 15W-40 as the report says..) The numbers are pretty interesting actually..

http://www.eilenberger.net/K75S/C21138.pdf (http://www.eilenberger.net/K75S/C21138.pdf) (PDF - Adobe Acrobat needed to read it..) With the exception of magnesium, all the extreme pressure additives and acid neutralizing additives were higher than the BMW oil.

Don, as you pointed out in another post (and I provided a spec chart for Mobil 1 oils), the higher viscosity engine oils have tend to have higher ZDDP contents because they are not subject to the lower ZDDP limits of the lower viscosity "eco oils", even though they carry the later SM rating.Agree entirely.. that's why I have the 4 gallons of Mobil-1 15W-50 sitting waiting for my warranty to expire.. :)

deilenberger

07-28-2008, 12:11 PM

I ride daily 108 rt to work. The only reason I mentioned #1 because two different BMW wrenches telling me that synth really has no benefit. This was after my mentioning the thought of switching over.
Thinking they would up-sell I was surprised. I always do my own oil. It's "required" every 3k on a "C". At 2160 a month in just commuting miles I'd like to lengthen that "change cycle". Both wrenches at different times said "save your money".

Hmmm...No idea where 108 rt is.. or what that means.. You might try using synthetic for one oil change, and then sending it to Blackstone (or another lab) for an analysis. I think you're wasting $$ doing an oil change every 3k miles on a fairly unstressed engine like the "C" has in it.. The oil analysis would tell you if you could extend the change interval using a synthetic oil.

ylexot

07-28-2008, 12:29 PM

No idea where 108 rt is.. or what that means.. You might try using synthetic for one oil change, and then sending it to Blackstone (or another lab) for an analysis. I think you're wasting $$ doing an oil change every 3k miles on a fairly unstressed engine like the "C" has in it.. The oil analysis would tell you if you could extend the change interval using a synthetic oil.

I would guess that:
108 rt = 108 miles Round Trip (RT).

deilenberger

07-28-2008, 12:39 PM

I would guess that:
108 rt = 108 miles Round Trip (RT).Ah... learn something every day.. :doh

kbasa

07-28-2008, 12:52 PM

At 20K miles, my RT has finally stopped using oil. I'll switch to synthetic now.

Actually, it used a bit less than a pint over 3700 miles when we went to the rally and back.

JimVonBaden1

07-28-2008, 12:53 PM

Agree entirely.. that's why I have the 4 gallons of Mobil-1 15W-50 sitting waiting for my warranty to expire.. :)

You seriously wait for the warranty to expire before using NON-BMW oil?:scratch

BMW cannot deny warranty repairs for that! They would have to prove that the non-BMW oil was the problem with the bike and caused the failure, and that would be damn hard to do.

Jim :brow

JimVonBaden1

07-28-2008, 12:56 PM

At 20K miles, my RT has finally stopped using oil. I'll switch to synthetic now.

Actually, it used a bit less than a pint over 3700 miles when we went to the rally and back.

Mine finally stopped using much oil during my trip, 7300 miles in 16 days at 53K miles. About time too!:blush

Jim :brow

BeemerMike

07-28-2008, 01:14 PM

JimVonBaden1

07-28-2008, 01:32 PM

I don't want to get too lawyerly here, but if you have an engine failure and make a warrantly claim, you just want BMW to agree to fix it on their dime without any argument. You do NOT want BMW resisting a warranty repair because they assert "insufficient lubrication" because you did not use the specified SG engine oil, and then you both go to court to make you arguments about whether or not the non-SG engine oil you used provides equivalent lubrication and protection.

Yes, you might eventually win, but it will make those few extras bucks you spent on BMW's (or someone else's) SG engine oil during the warranty period seem like the cheapest . . . insurance policy . . . ever.

I have absolutely NEVER heard of this happening, and the Magnuson/Moss act espressly forbids it. I highly doubt it would ever make it to court. This is exactly the kind of fear the manufacturers count on. Better not do any of your own maintenance for the same reasons!

http://www.sema.org/main/semaorghome.aspx?ID=50096

Federal law sets forth requirements for warranties and contains a number of provisions to prevent vehicle manufacturers, dealers and others from unjustly denying warranty coverage. With regard to aftermarket parts, the spirit of the law is that warranty coverage cannot be denied simply because such parts are present on the vehicle, or have been used (see Attachment A).The warranty coverage can be denied only if the aftermarket part caused the malfunction or damage for which warranty coverage is sought. Disputes in this area usually boil down to arguments over facts and technical opinions, rather than arguments over interpretations of the law.

The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act may also be helpful. Under this federal law, you can sue on breach of express and implied warranties. The main point of interest here is that the Act says warranty coverage may not be conditioned upon the use of only the vehicle manufacturer's parts unless the parts are provided free of charge. In other words, use of a non-carmaker product should not void your warranty unless it caused the problem.

But hey, pay double for the same oul you can get cheaper if it makes you feel better!

Jim :brow

BeemerMike

07-28-2008, 01:51 PM

I have absolutely NEVER heard of this happening, and the Magnuson/Moss act espressly forbids it. I highly doubt it would ever make it to court. This is exactly the kind of fear the manufacturers count on. Better not do any of your own maintenance for the same reasons!

I did not say you had to use BMW brand oil (which is the primary M-M issue), but rather I was talking about using the specified API class, i.e., SG vs. SM, whatever the brand. However, this is a risk-reward-avoidance decision that everyone is free to make, since it only affects THEIR motorcycle and THEIR potential warranty claim, and no one else's.

BeemerMike

07-28-2008, 01:53 PM

BMW hasn't published the number, but let me see if I can dig out my last oil analysis (done on 6k used BMW synthetic oil..)

Good info. Thanks Don.

JimVonBaden1

07-28-2008, 01:57 PM

I did not say you had to use BMW brand oil (which is the primary M-M issue), but rather I was talking about using the specified API class, i.e., SG vs. SM, whatever the brand. However, this is a risk-reward-avoidance decision that everyone is free to make, since it only affects THEIR motorcycle and THEIR potential warranty claim, and no one else's.

So how is BMW going to "prove" you did not use the proper classification of oil, and that that was the cause of the issue.? Remember, it is their responsibility to prove the oil you used caused the problem, irrespective of the "brand" you used.

Again, I have not ever heard of the oil used being used as a basis for claim denial.

Jim :brow

leadfoot

07-28-2008, 01:58 PM

Gee, I did not intend to re-start the "Great Oil Debate" again! I think it has been discussed on every forum that has anything to do with engines, I am sure of that! Lots of good points here, and I guess everyone has their own opinion of what is best for their bike versus what is best for their pocket. I simply was asking for an explaination as to why it is recommended to use conventional oil for "X" amount of miles before using Synthetic. Not that I plan on using Syn, I just had the impression that Dino oil provided a better break-in.

I just wanted clarification so that I am not credited for starting the Oil Debate again! (Unless it is too late for that!) LOL

BTW...although it is interesting hearing other's opinions regarding their oil preferences.

deilenberger

07-28-2008, 02:54 PM

You seriously wait for the warranty to expire before using NON-BMW oil?:scratch

BMW cannot deny warranty repairs for that! They would have to prove that the non-BMW oil was the problem with the bike and caused the failure, and that would be damn hard to do.

Jim :browJim,

BMW can do whatever they want, including denying warranty repairs. They can simply delay repairs and require proof from ME that it didn't cause an engine failure. Magnuson-Moss is a real nice act, with no real teeth, so yes - while it's under warranty it gets BMW oil bought at the dealer and I save the receipts (for the filters I buy from them also.) Doing that precludes even any discussion about warranty coverage.

If it comes down to push and shove - there is no government agency I know of that enforces warranties or Magnuson-Moss. If you want to fight a warranty denial in NJ - you have to hire an attorney to do it.. and pay the attorney since none of them are gonna do it on a contingency basis.

Would the owner win? Maybe - if they can show the oil they used meets BMW requirements, which in the case of Mobil-1, would be difficult since it actually doesn't. The BMW requirements are SG/SH *labeled* and no newer approval. That doesn't mean that Mobil-1 doesn't technically meet the requirements for extreme pressure additives (it does) - but that it isn't labeled or characterized by the manufacturer as such. Magnuson-Moss isn't a blank check for owners to use anything in place of manufacturer supplied parts.. you still have to use parts that meet the manufacturer's specifications. Since Mobil also sells "Big Twin" oils, I'd be willing to bet they wouldn't back use of the standard automotive oil in a boxer engine. Call me goofy (many do) - but I can't see what would be in it for them to defend using a less profitable product vs a more profitable one.

I'm a practical sorta guy... I don't want hassle when it can be easily avoided. Buying oil and filters from the dealer makes them feel warm and fuzzy (they know my face.. they know I spend $$ with them), and it makes me feel secure there wouldn't be a warranty denial problem. All it costs is $$ - and in the scheme of things, over the life of the warranty - the additional cost is probably about a case of decent beer. Not enough for me to worry about.

YMMV - and use whatever YOU want in YOUR bike, and I'll use what I want in mine.

rinty

07-28-2008, 04:23 PM

Would the owner win?...deilenberger

Besides the cost of the attorney fees which may be necessary to handle the case, an owner will also need to pay the cost of expert witness fees to give evidence about the suitability of the oil. Assuming one can find an expert witness nearby.

And after all of that, the judge hearing the case may not know the difference between a Robertson and Phillips screwdriver.

We have a VW Golf under warranty, and I always phone ahead to the drive through lube place to make sure they have the official filter in stock. Like General Yeager says: "Don't look for trouble."

Rinty

BeemerMike

07-28-2008, 04:24 PM

So how is BMW going to "prove" you did not use the proper classification of oil, and that that was the cause of the issue.? Remember, it is their responsibility to prove the oil you used caused the problem, irrespective of the "brand" you used.

Again, we are not talking about the "brand" of oil, we are talking about the API classification of the oil. Assuming the engine failure is arguably lubrication related (i.e., not a blown computer, failed alternator bearing, or a broken head stud), and BMW decided to make the oil used an issue, BMW would have already obtained your maintenance records (including the oil you used) in the discovery phase of the litigation. At trial, and assuming you were not planning to lie under oath, the "proof" would go something like this:

Q: Mr. VonBaden, what engine oil did you use in your BMW motorcycle?
A: ABC XXw-YY.

Q: What is the API classification of ABC XXw-YY?
A: SM. (If you say you don't know, they will just put a witness on the stand who will provide the information about ABC XXw-YY.)

Q: What is the API classification specified in your BMW owners manual?
A: SG/SH. (If you say you don't know, they will just put a witness on the stand who will enter the BMW owners manual into evidence and state the API classification specified.)

Q: No further questions, your honor.

BMW would then put a witness on the stand to explain why BMW specifies SG/SH engine oil, and the burden of proof would then almost certainly shift to you to show that the non-SG/SH oil you used is equivalent to the specified SG/SH oil.

Have fun! ;)

Or . . . you could just use an SG/SH oil (pick your favorite brand) until the warranty expires.

lionlady

07-28-2008, 05:14 PM

BigAdv

07-28-2008, 09:24 PM

I just love reading these treads on which oil is best. I usually just read with amusement and move on to the next tread, but today I would like to pose a question. Before I do I would like to qualify myself. For the past twenty years I have been employed and certified as an automotive service technician, I have my Alberta journeyman certificate, my Canadian red seal interprovincal journeyman certificate, I am certified by ASE in A1 through A8 and L1, I am also a certified Ford master technician, and a Land Rover gold certified master technician. I have taken lubricant chemical analysis courses at collage level; I have performed the oil tests on new and used oils that Don has done by Black Stone labs. In my time I have torn down and repaired/replaced many a engine that has failed in one way or another. I have seen many interesting things cause an engine to fail, some of the more notable ones are; lack of oil-due to leaks, usage, and owner neglect. Contaminated oil – usually from a failed gasket allowing coolant into the oil. Hard part failures-stress failure due to abuse, manufacturer defects, poor workmanship, etc. Air/ fuel system failures resulting in Eng. Damage- leaking inj causing a scuffed piston, poor air filtration causing dusted cylinders, and my favourite, poor quality fuel causing pinging and resulting in ultrasonic erosion of the nicasil liners. Now there are lots more that I have seen, these are just some examples. The point is I have never been able to directly conclude that oil has been the cause of a failure.

So the question that I posse is this; Has anyone had modern engine failure that was the direct result of the oil used?

Earl

deilenberger

07-28-2008, 09:40 PM

So the question that I posse is this; Has anyone had modern engine failure that was the direct result of the oil used?

EarlDepends on what'cha mean by modern. I had a '61 Volvo PV544 engine crack a ring, and I blamed it on the quart of Esso oil I'd added a few days before.. (I'd always used Quaker State.)

A bit more recently than that - BMW - on the 2001-2006 E46/M3 series cars originally specified 10W-30 synthetic. They had a lot of engines exploding (rods through the side of the engine sort of exploding, pistons going into the head..), and they then switched the oil requirement to a very rare 10W-60 synthetic. (Castrol TWS oil - made in Germany, sold by BMW dealers and a few aftermarket parts places.. I've thought of using it in the R12R actually - it's cheaper than the 15W-50 bike synthetic.)

It isn't clear if the failures were due to the oil being used or the 8k red-line in a long straight 6.. but it was there. The engines stopped blowing up after the oil spec change and after BMW replaced all the connecting rod bearings and oil pumps in about 3 years worth of cars.

Other than that - nope, but the M3 one was pretty significant (the engine costs more than my R12R..)

Been meaning to do an oil analysis on the oil from my M3.. but it's really just transportation.. the R12R is the passion.

GrafikFeat

07-28-2008, 10:22 PM

My "owners manual" states:

"BMW recommends Castrol."

So much for their brand.

cjack

07-28-2008, 10:47 PM

My "owners manual" states:

"BMW recommends Castrol."

So much for their brand.

Those manuals are prepared in Germany and BMWAG has a deal with Castrol. I think the manual also says SF to SH. If you can get some SH Castrol, then that is within their guidelines.
As far as "their brand" goes, in the USA BMWNA has a deal with Spectro who makes their branded oil and it is rated SH.
Generally, I think any warranty/oil issue would only come up if a dealer, for whatever reason, initiated the issue. Some dealers seem to come up with a lot of odd/erroneous/and blaming the customer reasons for things that go wrong with our BMWs. I think you should know your dealer as well as your oil while making a choice.

charleshickman

07-28-2008, 10:57 PM

My BMW car was delivered with Synth in the big V8 - I have about 2500 miles on the car and it is not due for an oil change until it hits 15K - that car does not evcen have an oil level indicator - the protocol for checking the oil level is to drain the crankase, refill, and measure the amount required to bring it up to full.

Please do not take offense, but my '06 325i does not have a dipstick, but does have an oil level sensor, that is checked by toggling a switch on the turnsignal stalk, then pressing the button on the end of the stalk. I personally would prefer a dipstick. If you have checked your owner's manual, please disregard.

BigAdv

07-28-2008, 11:00 PM

Don, that seems to me to be a human error, not a failure of the oil it self, the engineers tried to skimp on the oil needed for a high performance engine, and failed. And i know what you mean on cost, the last BMW engine I replaced was a M62 4.4L in a Range Rover(04)- $20 000.00 all told. the cust was none to happy as it was not covered under warranty- Nicasil liners were pitted by pinging from running ****ty gas on the hi-way, lost compession in #5&8 cylinders, punped all the oil out of the exhaust. It sucks to learn things the hard way but it did say that if the eng. light starts to flash, pull over and stop the eng. to avoid causing damage. Also dont know how poor oil could break a ring, seems like a stretch to me, usually rings break due to over heating or carbon build up from burning oil seizing them and causing the failure. Its like the old standby ' I just had my car in for an oil change and now my ???? does not work, it must be your fault"(and I want it fixed for free)

Earl

Herleman

07-28-2008, 11:18 PM

My F800 has had synthetic oil since 1K. Seems to be working well, so far.

I just like synthetic oil.

JimVonBaden1

07-29-2008, 07:07 AM

deilenberger

07-29-2008, 08:17 AM

Don, that seems to me to be a human error, not a failure of the oil it self, the engineers tried to skimp on the oil needed for a high performance engine, and failed.OK - then I'm unclear on what you'd consider an oil caused failure.. This seemed to be one to me - the oil specifications weren't sufficient for the engine.. sort of like using SM rated oil in a BMW bike engine that requires SG/SH..

Puzzled... (and beating my chest for a bit so Jim is happy.. :bolt )

deilenberger

07-29-2008, 08:21 AM

Don and others, feel free to pay whatever you like for oil, but I say it is a waste of money to pander to BMW for overpriced oil when there is not one example I know of where BMW denied a warranty claim for using the wrong oil. Not one!:deal

Have a nice day, and don't hurt yourselves beating yuor chest to hard!:D

Jim :browJim - you can - as I do - do whatever you want. You certainly don't need my permission, nor do I need yours. I told what I did and why. You are certainly free to disagree with me, but it seems a bit strange that we can't disagree with you.

As you said - have a nice day. :p

(Wandering away with a bruised chest apparently..) :bolt

deilenberger

07-29-2008, 08:26 AM

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png
(Just love this cartoon..)

cjack

07-29-2008, 08:44 AM

OK - then I'm unclear on what you'd consider an oil caused failure.. This seemed to be one to me - the oil specifications weren't sufficient for the engine.. sort of like using SM rated oil in a BMW bike engine that requires SG/SH..

Puzzled... (and beating my chest for a bit so Jim is happy.. :bolt )

My dealer is also a BMW car dealer and I remember that but was thinking the answer was something different than just the oil...seems like it was the ethanol in the gas or something that the linings were not resistant to. I could be all wet on that, but I remember something about we had here and they did not have in Europe.

deilenberger

07-29-2008, 09:08 AM

My dealer is also a BMW car dealer and I remember that but was thinking the answer was something different than just the oil...seems like it was the ethanol in the gas or something that the linings were not resistant to. I could be all wet on that, but I remember something about we had here and they did not have in Europe.Gas wasn't the problem. BMW initially blamed it on the oil (well - initially they blamed it on the customers.. that's not a surprise..) used. They then claimed that there were some batches of bad bearings installed, and a bad oil pump. They then did a 2nd go around with the oil pumps (some cars got them twice..) The final outcome was - new bearings, new oil pump, extended engine warranty for anything touched by oil to 100k/6 years, and the new oil specification. There are a lot less reports of them blowing up since they took these actions.. :buds

MPATROVSKY

07-29-2008, 11:20 AM

I use only BMW oil and filters. Always have, always will. Not just because I'm afraid the warranty will be effected, but because I want to maximize performance and minimize wear. My bike is out of warranty at 36,000 miles and I hope to ride it well past three times that. I'd feel stupid if I saved a few dollars on a Fram filter or Wal-Mart oil just to have the engine "wear out" at sixty thousand miles.

Bob1100RTC

07-29-2008, 06:55 PM

Used a BMW filter $16 with crush washer and Castrol 4T $12 for my 4000 mile oil change.

BeemerMike

07-30-2008, 05:00 AM

Don and others, feel free to pay whatever you like for oil, but I say it is a waste of money to pander to BMW for overpriced oil when there is not one example I know of where BMW denied a warranty claim for using the wrong oil.

I don't think anyone here has opined that you MUST use "overpriced" BMW brand engine oil during the warranty period, and I have repeatedly said I am talking about API classification and not brand. Apparently some people read what they want to read. :banghead

Even if the risk of BMW denying a warranty claim is small, why take the risk, especially if there is no financial benefit for doing it? Just put the specified SG/SH oil (WHATEVER BRAND YOU WANT) in the bike until the warranty has expired. After that, it's probably going to be your dime anyway if something breaks, so THEN you can decide whether to keep using an SG/SH or go to an SM that has a higher ZDDP content (e.g., Mobil 1 15w-50 or 20w-50). ;)

JimVonBaden1

07-30-2008, 12:02 PM

I don't think anyone here has opined that you MUST use "overpriced" BMW brand engine oil during the warranty period, and I have repeatedly said I am talking about API classification and not brand. Apparently some people read what they want to read. :banghead

Isn't that the truth!:stick

Even if the risk of BMW denying a warranty claim is small, why take the risk, especially if there is no financial benefit for doing it? Just put the specified SG/SH oil (WHATEVER BRAND YOU WANT) in the bike until the warranty has expired. After that, it's probably going to be your dime anyway if something breaks, so THEN you can decide whether to keep using an SG/SH or go to an SM that has a higher ZDDP content (e.g., Mobil 1 15w-50 or 20w-50). ;)

But that is the point. BMW oil IS more expensive! $3+ a quart. It does add up.

Oh, and I know people who even work for BMW who not only don't use BMW oil, and don't use BMW filters.

To each his own, but my opinion is no less valid than Don's or your's, and your constant need to prove me wrong, with no evidence, is pointless.

Jim :brow

rinty

07-30-2008, 12:57 PM

It's been a good thread, though.

I've got to get up to speed on these new API classifications. :scratch

Rinty

BeemerMike

07-30-2008, 04:49 PM

But that is the point. BMW oil IS more expensive! $3+ a quart. It does add up.

But, as I've said for countless times, I am NOT saying to use BMW brand oil. :confused:

I give up, Don. You have the con.

JimVonBaden1

07-30-2008, 08:48 PM

But, as I've said for countless times, I am NOT saying to use BMW brand oil. :confused:

I give up, Don. You have the con.

Definitely not countless, but my discussion about BMW oil was with Don until you butted in. Are you a lawyer by chance???

Jim :brow

FredRydr

07-30-2008, 10:50 PM

Definitely not countless, but my discussion about BMW oil was with Don until you butted in. Are you a lawyer by chance???

Jim :brow

Oh brother.

Fred

BigAdv

07-30-2008, 11:20 PM

Gas wasn't the problem. BMW initially blamed it on the oil (well - initially they blamed it on the customers.. that's not a surprise..) used. They then claimed that there were some batches of bad bearings installed, and a bad oil pump. They then did a 2nd go around with the oil pumps (some cars got them twice..) The final outcome was - new bearings, new oil pump, extended engine warranty for anything touched by oil to 100k/6 years, and the new oil specification. There are a lot less reports of them blowing up since they took these actions.. :buds

Sounds to me that it was not just simply the oil, by your own words. Pump, brgs, oil with an extemely high VI, and very thermally stable. (really good oil to save an inheranty flawed design)

The point that I was trying to make is that as long as you use a oil that is rated for the application there should be nothing to worry about. Assuming of course that the engineers did there home work before hand.

But maybe Michelle Moore was right, fear=consumption.

Earl

deilenberger

07-31-2008, 07:43 AM

Sounds to me that it was not just simply the oil, by your own words. Pump, brgs, oil with an extemely high VI, and very thermally stable. (really good oil to save an inheranty flawed design)

The point that I was trying to make is that as long as you use a oil that is rated for the application there should be nothing to worry about. Assuming of course that the engineers did there home work before hand.
Absolutely agree.. in the case of BMW boxer engines, BMW engineers call for SG/SH, and different viscosities for different temperature conditions. I think we can be certain if you follow those recommendations (and change interval recommendations) you won't experience an oil related engine failure. If you venture off into oils that don't meet the specifications, you're taking the risk upon yourself if there is an oil related failure.

But maybe Michelle Moore was right, fear=consumption.

EarlWho's Michelle Moore? :D

Best,

BeemerMike

07-31-2008, 07:50 AM

Oh brother.

No kidding. :rolleyes

BeemerMike

07-31-2008, 08:10 AM

Definitely not countless, but my discussion about BMW oil was with Don until you butted in.

Start reading at about post #22, and see who "butted in". The discussion was about API classifications and the ZDDP content of various oil brands and API classifications. The discussion NEVER was about using BMW oil vs. using non-BMW oil.

You jumped in with an assertion that BMW could not deny a warranty claim for not using BMW oil. Nobody, including me, disagreed with you on that point. The discussion was whether BMW COULD (and not necessarily WOULD) deny a warranty claim for not using an oil with the specified API classification (i.e., SG/SH). Using BMW brand oil is ONE way to get the SG/SH classification, but it is clearly not the only way.

Just because you are not personnally aware of BMW ever denying a warranty claim based on API classification of the oil does not mean it is not possible. BMW has an history of denying warranty claims based on "blaming the owner" (see Don's posts for examples). You may feel that the risk of warranty claim denial is too small to worry about, and therefore you are comfortable using whatever oil you want. And that's OK by me . . . I won't try to change your decision. But others may not want to take the small risk and may decide to select their oil during the warranty period accordingly (i.e., and use an SG/SH oil).

One of the points of this forum is to disseminate information so people can make informed decisions. Jeez Louise! :(

TR250Tom

07-31-2008, 09:52 AM

Oh brother.

Fred

+1. I didn't realize forum discussions were private, I'm glad the Internet Gendarme alerted me before I butted in too. And before anyone asks, I'm not an attorney either, not that there's anything wrong with that.

GrafikFeat

07-31-2008, 11:23 AM

Oh brother.

Fred

++2!

Time to change the oil in this thread!

...and a few diapers! :D

rinty

07-31-2008, 12:14 PM

Time to change the oil....Grafikfeat

:rofl

Is it OK to use SM in my new Subaru; it's still under warranty? :hide

Rinty

rocketman

07-31-2008, 12:20 PM

:rofl

Is it OK to do S&M in my new Subaru; it's still under warranty? :hide

Rinty

I think that's a bit personal, don't you? :laugh

RM

(OK. so its a slow day at work, what can I say???)

rinty

07-31-2008, 01:08 PM

I'm outa' S & M now, even during slow days. :D

Rinty

Ted

07-31-2008, 05:14 PM

Hi folks - just a gentle reminder about the whole "play nice" thing in the posting guidelines (http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/faq.php?faq=vb_faq#faq_postingguidelines). Irritating snipes and trolling are best left to forums where they are welcomed.

Thanks!

GrafikFeat

08-01-2008, 11:37 AM

Those manuals are prepared in Germany and BMWAG has a deal with Castrol. I think the manual also says SF to SH. If you can get some SH Castrol, then that is within their guidelines.
As far as "their brand" goes, in the USA BMWNA has a deal with Spectro who makes their branded oil and it is rated SH.
Generally, I think any warranty/oil issue would only come up if a dealer, for whatever reason, initiated the issue. Some dealers seem to come up with a lot of odd/erroneous/and blaming the customer reasons for things that go wrong with our BMWs. I think you should know your dealer as well as your oil while making a choice.

I'm just not that anal about oil. Thats me. I keep it clean as recommended w/ in the prescribed mileage cycles. I use BMW filters which are also sold under their own brand name by Eurosports for a few bucks less. I never seem to remember that and end up buying them from the dealer. Big deal. Some other brands outright suck. If I can't afford a OEM oil filter I shouldn't be on a BMW! :D If they say use Castrol, why not? I don't care about marketing deals... I've used Castrol for 35+ years, from lawnmowers and minibikes to all my vehicles today.
My dealer!? HA! My dealer returned my bike back to me after a 6K service w/ all four lug nuts backed off 1-2 threads.
Oil... I go with what works for me over the long haul. Keep an eye on it and keep it clean. Works for me.
Note: The action words here are for me. Your machine, your methods.

aaaaaa

08-01-2008, 04:03 PM

we need too change our oil?
robert

BigAdv

08-01-2008, 09:59 PM

we need too change our oil?
robert

No, its all fear based consumption.:stick

rocketman

08-02-2008, 05:25 AM

we need too change our oil?
robert

Well, if you ride an airhead with 175K you don't have to, you just top it up as it gets burned off, equals about a quart every 2000 miles and 2000x2 = one complete oils change! Ha Ha!

RM

(and if anyone takes this seriously, they got NO sense of humor!)

Ted

08-02-2008, 11:55 AM

JimVonBaden1

08-07-2008, 10:40 AM

Will be interesting to see how this one plays out...

THREAD (http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showthread.php?t=28245):"under warranty luckily ,but already being questioned about oil & service performed before the dealer will submit anything to BMW"

He drops a valve on a new bike and they question oil? :banghead

What a dealer, because I would avoid them like the plague!

Jim :brow

EDIT: After reading, it looks like the dealer is just getting the facts, they are not saying they will not cover it if he did his own service.

"under warranty luckily ,but already being questioned about oil & service performed before the dealer will submit anything to BMW.Still had dino oil, and I did the 6K prior to the RA due to time constraints and no appt available at dealer."

BeemerMike

08-07-2008, 12:17 PM

He drops a valve on a new bike and they question oil?

And reality comes knocking. Ouch! ;)

JimVonBaden1

08-07-2008, 02:28 PM

And reality comes knocking. Ouch! ;)

Nice, real nice!:rolleyes You almost seem happy that you are ALMOST, maybe, being proved correct at someone else's expense.

Jim :brow

BeemerMike

08-07-2008, 02:56 PM

Nice, real nice!:rolleyes You almost seem happy that you are ALMOST, maybe, being proved correct at someone else's expense.

As seems to be fairly typical, Jim completely misses the point of my post. I do not seem happy at someone else's expense. I personally think it would be terrible if this warranty claim gets denied on the basis of an easily-avoidable maintenance issue.

The point was, and is, while your BMW motorcycle is under the factory warranty, you should follow the BMW specified-maintenance TO THE LETTER (and maybe more), and be able to document it, IF you want to avoid (or at least minimize) the chances of BMW objecting to a warranty claim. That includes using the engine oil specified by BMW. If BMW specifies an SG/SH engine oil (and BMW does not specify a brand of oil, only the API classification and the viscosity), then that is what you should use. After the warranty expires, then you are free to use whatever oil you want, provided you do not expect or care about BMW potentially providing after-the-warranty "good will" coverage.

Just some simple lawyer advice . . . when someone tells you not worry about using the oil specified by BMW during the warranty period, because they are not aware of BMW ever denying a warranty claim based on API classification, be VERY, VERY careful. They are not going to pay for your bike repairs if BMW denies your warranty claim. But, of course, it's YOUR BMW motorcycle, so you are free to do whatever you want. Just don't say you weren't warned.

JimVonBaden1

08-07-2008, 03:05 PM

Forget it, you win. I give up!:banghead

Never argue with a lawyer! :rolleyes

Jim :brow

ylexot

08-07-2008, 03:50 PM

Never argue with a lawyer! :rolleyes
That's right...shoot first, ask questions later :nra :ha

leadfoot

08-07-2008, 08:33 PM

I respect both opinions, as your points have been well made, and I do hope that one opinion is not justified at someone else's expense. However I will keep my opinion to myself....too many bullets flying in this room!!

cjack

08-07-2008, 11:19 PM

This reminds me of one of those oil threads...

BeemerMike

08-08-2008, 07:54 AM

However I will keep my opinion to myself....too many bullets flying in this room!!

And that would be a shame . . . if you don't share your opinions and information with others because a few feel the need to personally attack you if your opinion is different from theirs. :(

rglassma

08-09-2008, 07:19 AM

Hello Everyone,

I don't really see the need to use synthetic with an oil change at 6K. That is how long I plan to use the oil and filter. I use castrol and BMW filters. I use to use amsoil but interestingly enough, 5k after I started using it on my 03 K with 30K on it, the seals started leaking.

The pricing differential for synthetic more then makes up for the difference in savings for gas mileage if there is any. I am getting between 50-60mpg consistently. That is good enough for me and my '05RT.

I'll just stick to dino oil in the classification that bmw recommends, buy an extended warranty and love the bike.

Isn't that what we are here for? We love to ride, are club members and share that in common. Why all the arguing, debating and fighting? Seems kinda silly to me.

BeemerMike

08-09-2008, 08:28 AM

I'll just stick to dino oil in the classification that bmw recommends, buy an extended warranty and love the bike.

Sounds like a reasonable plan to me (although I don't know what the cost/benefits of that extended warranty are, so cannot judge). I think those of us who advocate synthetic just feel it provides a little more protection, especially in hot weather or more severe service. But, none of us are saying that a reputable brand dino oil is inadequate.

lewlei

08-09-2008, 10:48 AM

I use castrol and BMW filters. I use to use amsoil but interestingly enough, 5k after I started using it on my 03 K with 30K on it, the seals started leaking.

That's interesting, in fact all comments here have been. I just had the 6K done on my R12RT and BMW Orlando used Amsoil 20W-50. The difference in pricing is something also. My selling dealer, Ironhorse in Tucson did the 600 and used Castrol 20W-50 at $2.48/qt and the filter was $9.06. For a 3K oil change, I bought BMW oil and filter while in San Antonio from the BMWdealer there and paid $5.94/qt for BMW Special 20W-50 and $18.12 for the filter. Now, at the 6K, Orlando used Amsoil 20W-50S at $9.75/qt and $16.30 for the filter and crush washer.

Quite a difference in prices. Once years ago when Mobil 1 first came out, I used it in my GMC pick-up and it soon began to leak. Hope the Amsoil doesn't do that with the new RT.

Educational and informative thread

Lew

konrad

08-09-2008, 03:42 PM

While retrieving my bike yesterday from its 600 mile service and without prompting, the BMW service advisor said I could switch to synthetic at 3,000 miles. Similar to a previous comment in this thread, my response was that until this bike is off its factory warranty, I'll stick with the BMW dino oil - no questions asked if engine problems arise.

cjack

08-09-2008, 04:05 PM

BigAdv

08-09-2008, 04:44 PM

BMW just came out with an SB clarifiying the oil to be used in the K1200S/R/GT. They said that up to 600 mi any oil to be added should be 10W50 dino, and after that up to 6K, 10W50 or 10W40 dino depending on ambient temperature...all SG or SH. After 6K, they said to use either 10W40 or 15W50 synth if desired (again SG/SH) and temp considerations.

That all fine and dandy, but I do not see the relevance in posting this info., as this is a hexhead forum and this info pertains to K bikes, two totally different animals. Seems that this will add to the confusion around here.

Earl

BigSkyRider

08-10-2008, 08:11 PM

I've been changing oil on my 2K GS since it was new.
Two months ago I purchased a new GS and after the first service performed by the dealer last month I set the bike up in my garage to do my first oil change.

Yikes! I had to run all over town to find the right tools (plural) to remove the skid plate.....Torx 8, T-10, 13 mm .....yow!
The Napa store stated "well I guess BMW just would prefer that you not work on the bike".

I would agree.

Cheers!

Mike

ylexot

08-10-2008, 08:37 PM

davidgiannini

08-12-2008, 08:49 PM

BigAdv

08-12-2008, 10:17 PM

Damn, This is more fun than Christians vs. Lions. My R1200R owners manual states the following under "Oil Grades":

"Engine oils of the API classification SF or greater. Engine oils of the ACEA classification A2 or better. BMW Motorrad recommends not using synthetic oils for the first 6000 miles (10,000 km)."

Here is a link to a service bulletin from BMW warning not to use API SJ oils:

http://www.gunsmoke.com/motorcycling/reviews/sj_oil/index.html

Here is a link to the API ratings from the American Petroleum Institute:

http://www.aa1car.com/library/API_ratings.pdf

Hope this serves to clear some of the confusion.

Not quite sure how citing a 10 year old service bulletin that was published when drip feed roller bearing eng.s where the norm for BMW, will 'clear up' the confusion. As stated in your post, BMW now recommends an API classification of SF(1988 new veh.) OR BETTER. It does not state that you cannot use oil classified SJ - even though 10yrs earlier they did not recommend it. the lastest rating now is SM and they have no recommendation against it. Even the other site that you linked says its OK-"For automotive gasoline engines, the latest engine oil service
category includes the performance properties of each earlier
category."

Just to add to the confusion.:stick

Earl

deilenberger

08-13-2008, 08:16 AM

Even the other site that you linked says its OK-"For automotive gasoline engines, the latest engine oil service
category includes the performance properties of each earlier
category."

Just to add to the confusion.:stick

EarlEarl,

It is adding to the confusion since it's no longer true. With the EPA sticking it's nose into the pot - the later classifications are known to contain less extreme pressure additives in the additive package. These were reduced since it is believed they have a bad effect on catalytic converters. This means an SM grade oil may not meet the extreme pressure specifications of an oil with SF-SG classification.

The BMW memo specified SF-SG graded oil since that was the last classification before this change took place, and they felt the additional extreme pressure additives were a good thing. To confuse things even more - the reduction in the additives wasn't uniform - the "energy saving" grade oils (0W-30, 5W-30) have less of them than higher viscosity grades - even with the same API classification.

What's needed is to encourage MCN and Jeff DiCarlo to do an updated study on oil additives to see what is being sold and what it really contains.

Ted

08-13-2008, 08:18 AM

Not quite sure how citing a 10 year old service bulletin that was published when drip feed roller bearing eng.s where the norm for BMW, will 'clear up' the confusion.

So you're saying it is OK to use API SJ oils now?

BeemerMike

08-13-2008, 08:23 AM

To confuse things even more - the reduction in the additives wasn't uniform - the "energy saving" grade oils (0W-30, 5W-30) have less of them than higher viscosity grades - even with the same API classification.

What's needed is to encourage MCN and Jeff DiCarlo to do an updated study on oil additives to see what is being sold and what it really contains.

Yes, that would certainly be a great help, and would hopefully avoid (or at least reduce) a lot of the ad hoc "part of the story" discussions going on here.

deilenberger

08-13-2008, 08:26 AM

So you're saying it is OK to use API SJ oils now?I can't speak for Earl, but unless I know the SJ oil has the level of extreme pressure additives that BMW wants - I'd stick with oil I know has it. In my case - the easiest way to do that is to buy BMW oil from BMW.

YMMV, and did'ya get the bike yet Ted?

Ted

08-13-2008, 08:45 AM

YMMV, and did'ya get the bike yet Ted?

We're still negotiating :banghead

thtduck

08-13-2008, 08:54 AM

No, its all fear based consumption.:stick

Awesome :thumb

thtduck

08-13-2008, 08:56 AM

...The point is I have never been able to directly conclude that oil has been the cause of a failure.

So the question that I posse is this; Has anyone had modern engine failure that was the direct result of the oil used?

Earl

Exactly!

deilenberger

08-13-2008, 12:10 PM

Exactly!This entire thread now is becoming a repeat of one about 3 weeks ago. Including this question. The answer is yes. BMW-M3 engines, 2001-2003. Many. Then they changed the oil specifications (and some engine parts) and it stopped.

EDIT----------------------
Within the past few months: http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showthread.php?t=24966
and http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showthread.php?t=22358
and: http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showthread.php?t=24172 (some good info on a few Castrol SG rated oils!)

Tell'ya the truth.. I'm bored with oil so I'm dropping out. Have fun without me!

Burnszilla

08-17-2008, 02:08 PM

To add more confusion... If you talk to the Spectro oil rep he will tell you that the oil in BMW bottles is actually API SL and BMW has not changed the SG label.

cjack

08-18-2008, 12:27 PM

To add more confusion... If you talk to the Spectro oil rep he will tell you that the oil in BMW bottles is actually API SL and BMW has not changed the SG label.

Ok. I have to respond to this. I don't know if BMW has been delinquent in changing the label or if they purposely didn't since their oil really does comply to SG whereas the the SL oils may not. I will leave it up to the reader to understand why.

dpspeer

08-20-2008, 06:17 PM

leadfoot

08-20-2008, 09:29 PM

Maybe I can change the subject for a while: I switched my '07 1200RT to synthetic at the 12k service in July, just before leaving on a month long trip. After about 800 miles, I noticed a drop in oil level for the first time on this bike. Over the next 5k miles, the level consistently dropped about .25 inch in the sight glass per every 500 miles. After about 4 days, signs of a leak appeared with oil running down the swing arm.

I took the bike to a dealer in Michigan for the 18k service and to investigate the oil leak. They cleaned everything up and found no signs of a leak after a test drive. I forgot to tell them I was running synthetic so they put dino oil in during the service.

I have put another 4k miles on the bike since then and the oil level has remained unchanged with no signs of any leak. So, I can only assume that the oil loss is related to the synthetic oil. With the 24k service coming up soon, I’m thinking I might stick with the dino.

Thanks for the info. This is the kind of information I was looking for when I submitted the thread. I do know that oil topics can get quite "abuzz" with all the opinions and info out there. What I was looking for was why run dino up to a certain point? And the general consensus is that it seems to aid in the break in better than synthetic. However, yours is not the first post that alluded to the fact that the engine began to leak after switching to synthetic. I think that unless I hear anything to the contrary, I will stick with BMW dino for now. For the record, my RT has 2500 miles at this time, and is using no oil, and has no leaks.

GrafikFeat

08-20-2008, 09:43 PM

I will stick with BMW dino for now. For the record, my RT has 2500 miles at this time, and is using no oil, and has no leaks.

BMW also recommends Castrol. Less expensive and "sanctioned".

deilenberger

08-20-2008, 09:48 PM

I have put another 4k miles on the bike since then and the oil level has remained unchanged with no signs of any leak. So, I can only assume that the oil loss is related to the synthetic oil. With the 24k service coming up soon, I’m thinking I might stick with the dino.

I'll just comment - I wouldn't be satisified with a bike that leaked synthetic oil. The fact that it does means a seal is bad. I'd want that fixed while it's under warranty - seals don't get better on their own. At best - it will remain the same, at worst, it will start leaking standard dino-oil.

deilenberger

08-20-2008, 09:51 PM

I will stick with BMW dino for now. For the record, my RT has 2500 miles at this time, and is using no oil, and has no leaks.
For the record - my R12R has 18,600 miles at this time, uses no oil and has no leaks. I use BMW synthetic oil. I've been using it since 5,500 miles.

And that really proves not much of anything, except you can't necessarily attribute lack of leaks and oil use to the type of oil you're using. IF the engine is running correctly and assembled correctly - dino or synthetic - should both work just fine.

GrafikFeat

08-20-2008, 09:53 PM

...both work just fine.

:heart I love choices. :hug

airoilheadbeemerguy

08-25-2008, 11:51 AM

I waited until reaching 18K km (approx 13K miles), switched to full syntetic and just returned from 7500 km tour, did not require an oil top off. My '07 RT got as good and sometimes better mileage than my wife's 650 VStrom; both ran the same oil too. :whistle

rocketman

08-25-2008, 01:24 PM

:heart I love choices. :hug

how about paraffin based motor oil?

:hide

RM

GrafikFeat

08-25-2008, 02:49 PM

how about paraffin based motor oil?

:hide

RM

Can't hold a candle to it! :laugh

dpspeer

08-25-2008, 03:19 PM

I'll just comment - I wouldn't be satisified with a bike that leaked synthetic oil. The fact that it does means a seal is bad. I'd want that fixed while it's under warranty - seals don't get better on their own. At best - it will remain the same, at worst, it will start leaking standard dino-oil.

I have to agree with you, but, when you're 2,500 miles from home and tell a dealer you have an oil leak and they clean it up, test drive it and say "we couldn't find any leaks", what are you going to do? Not only was I surprised by that, but I was also told they didn't perform the recall on the antennae ring as "we saw you are carrying a spare".

I have no doubt the rear seal is leaking, the mechanic that first looked at it agreed. One other thing I told them at the time was that I could smell burnt oil during heavy clutch use while following some idiot trying to haul a trailer over the ridge in Rocky Mtn N.P.

No, I'm not satisfied with a bike that leaks synthetic oil and requires me to carry spare parts to insure it will start, nor am I satisfied by this particular dealer's response. I'll take it up with my local dealer during the next service but the fact remains it doesn't leak dino oil.

1analguy

09-01-2008, 03:25 AM

To the original poster:

I also run Mobil 1 V-Twin synthetic in my H-D, mainly because of its superior thermal stability, as my Night Train has no oil cooler on it. The bike ran just fine with basic H-D dino oil in it, too. I just feel safer with the Mobil 1 in there.

Though my '07 RT's owner's manual says I can use synthetic oil after 6,000 miles, I am definitely not going to be running Mobil 1 V-Twin synthetic in it (should it ever quit using oil). V-Twin is very specifically formulated for H-D air-cooled V twins, which place quite different demands on their oil than do BMW Boxers (especially the late-model hex head RTs with their rather macho oil coolers). The Harleys have almost no plain bearings in them. The plain bearings found in our Boxers require a lot more from the oil, in terms of shear resistance, than the ball/needle/roller bearings found throughout H-D's Big Twin and Sportster do. In addition, those shear demands increase radically with the (comparatively) elevated engine speeds seen by the Boxers. The only area where the demand on the oil in your H-D will actually exceed the demand on the oil in your BMW will be in the area that caused me to purposely choose V-Twin synthetic for my H-D in the first place: thermal stability. That rear cylinder on a Harley runs a lot hotter than the front cylinder and, I suspect, a lot hotter than either cylinder on your Beemer. Plus, the oil cooler on your H-D has about 1/2 the capacity of the one on you RT and it's located, more or less, in the relatively dead air behind the front suspension. As a result, H-D's touring bikes need the thermal stability of a good synthetic even more than my Night Train does.

My RT has about 7500 miles on it right now and has had BMW 10-40 dino in it since it was new. Somewhere around 3000 miles, the oil consumption fell off to a much-reduced-but-not-yet-zero level. Until, literally, yesterday I would have said that I would continue to use dino oil (though not BMW's: it's more expensive than actual synthetic in these parts!) indefinitely. Yesterday I was on my way into the H-D 105th anniversary party (on the RT! And yes, I got compliments) and got stuck in a 1/4 mile long traffic jam that moved exactly two car lengths on each cycle of the stop light. It was about 90 degrees out and the bike was idling for close to 1/2 an hour. Previously, I'd never seen the temperature bar graph more than 1 notch above the 1/2 mark, but this time it was at or above 3/4! Of course, nobody knows how hot that means that the oil actually got, but when I finally cleared the stop light and got moving again, the bike wasn't running quite normally until later in the evening when it had cooled down. Before I let that happen again, I'll either add the RTP oil cooler fan setup or switch to synthetic oil. I'm still thinking it over...

BeemerMike

09-01-2008, 09:24 AM

I also run Mobil 1 V-Twin synthetic in my H-D . . . Though my '07 RT's owner's manual says I can use synthetic oil after 6,000 miles, I am definitely not going to be running Mobil 1 V-Twin synthetic in it (should it ever quit using oil). V-Twin is very specifically formulated for H-D air-cooled V twins, which place quite different demands on their oil than do BMW Boxers (especially the late-model hex head RTs with their rather macho oil coolers).

:confused: So . . . your opinion is that Mobil 1 V-Twin is intentionally formulated to be LESS capable than the other Mobil 1 engine oils (even though it has the highest ZDDP content)? Other than your speculation that V-Twin was "very specifically formulated" for H-D engines and therefore the oil doesn't need to be as robust (as opposed to, say, this is all a marketing ploy), do you have ANY objective evidence to support your claim?

:rolleyes

Mudbug

09-01-2008, 11:29 AM

Gonna change the oil & filter on my new RT soon, as well as a valve adjustment. I have heard some say that it is best to wait until after 10K before using synthetic oil. I could not find anything in my manual. My only guess is that non-synthetic oil helps to promote a better break-in. Can anyone confirm or deny this?? I have used Mobil 1 V Twin Synthetic on my HD and it peformed well, but the Boxer is a new bread for me and I want what is best for it. Any preferences?

Here is the official answer from BMW. Service Bulletin BMW Synthetic Motor Oil in CHP Police Motorcycles (http://www.bmwmc.net/uploads/tm7/2912.pdf). This reminds me of Harley-Davidson who will not publish the API of any of their motor oils and insist that only Harley-Davidson motor oils be used in a Harley-Davidson motorcycle.

airoilheadbeemerguy

09-03-2008, 06:30 PM

Read the preceding post re BMW oil recommendations and noted API class SJ oils are not approved for use. Now I'm somewhat (somewhat...?) confused; have an '07 RT, pg 147 of the owners manual states "Engine oils of API classification SF or better." I would presume this does not preclude use of SJ and would seem to contradict the service bulletin. I am now using Castrol Syntec and on the bottle it reads SM,SL,SJ,CF. If there are wiser minds on this topic please post technical data on this matter.:whistle

TR250Tom

09-03-2008, 10:38 PM

The Harleys have almost no plain bearings in them. The plain bearings found in our Boxers require a lot more from the oil, in terms of shear resistance, than the ball/needle/roller bearings found throughout H-D's Big Twin and Sportster do...

We can go on, and on and on...and we probably will, but..

It's the roller bearings that are harder on oil than plain bearings, not the other way around. The larger surface area of a plain bearing is less prone to slicing up long molecule chains than a roller or ball bearing, where the forces are concentrated on a small surface area (like in a pair of scissors). I can probably dig out a reference from old an old mechanical engineering text, if you hold a gun to my head...

I wouldn't use "motorcycle oil" from HD, or RedLine, or anyone else either, because those are generally formulated with friction modifiers to facilitate the smooth operatation of a wet clutch, and our R bikes have a dry clutch. I don't know that these additives would be harmful; maybe we can start another oil thread about that...

Cheers, Tom

davidgiannini

09-03-2008, 11:37 PM

I love oil threads, they are the perpetual motion machines of these forums.

They go round and round and never resolve a thing.

Reminds me of religious arguments.

For all you gluttons for punishment I highly recommend a forum dedicated to oil:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php

Have fun!

BeemerMike

09-04-2008, 07:22 AM

cjack

09-04-2008, 08:25 AM

BeemerMike

09-04-2008, 08:44 AM

When the API rating of SJ came out, it allowed less antiwear protection in the heavy weights of oil and mandated less antiwear protection in the light weights. This was done to prolong the life of the cat convertors in cars. So since we could not be sure that the antiwear protection was up to what BMW thought was required, BMW advised us to use oil rated SG or SH, but not SJ or above.

But . . . since we use "heavy weights" (i.e., higher viscosity) oil in our BMW motorcycles, it is possible to get higher contents of the "antiwear" ingredients (i.e., ZDDP) in the later SJ/SL/SM engine oils . . . but you have to check the specs for the particular brand/viscosity you want to use to "be sure" you are actually getting them.

However, while under BMW warranty you should only use an SG/SH engine oil (as BMW specifies) to avoid any potential warranty claim issues. Legalities rants aside, this is the safest path while under warranty. After the warranty expires . . . pick your own oil.

1analguy

09-06-2008, 06:01 AM

:confused: So . . . your opinion is that Mobil 1 V-Twin is intentionally formulated to be LESS capable than the other Mobil 1 engine oils (even though it has the highest ZDDP content)? Other than your speculation that V-Twin was "very specifically formulated" for H-D engines and therefore the oil doesn't need to be as robust (as opposed to, say, this is all a marketing ploy), do you have ANY objective evidence to support your claim? :rolleyes

Re-read my post, carefully. I never claimed, nor do I believe, that Mobil 1 V-Twin synthetic is in any way "less capable". In fact, I think it's the best thing since sliced bread...for a Harley Twin-Cam. M1 V-Twin originally hit the market before H-D started selling their own synthetic oil, and the first retail outlet for the oil was the H-D dealer network. The point of my post, and I apologize if I did not make my meaning clear, was that the oil requirements of the Boxer in my RT probably share more in common with a liquid-cooled car engine than with an air-cooled Harley! Hell, there are probably several people on this forum who have been very successfully running M1 V-Twin in their Beemers and are happy as clams because, though it wasn't formulated specifically for our Boxers, it is very good oil. In a way, I'm now a bit sorry that I even posted on this subject as I have come to the same conclusion that many here have: As long as you've got good, clean oil of the proper rating in your Beemer, you're not going to have any problems with your engine, short of a non-oil-related mechanical failure. And, we probably do spend way too much time on this subject.

As far as mechanical (needle/roller/ball) bearings being "harder on oil" than plain bearings, I don't buy it. While it's true that at each moving point of contact in a mechanical bearing there exists a greater load per unit of area, it is a rolling point of contact and so causes almost no friction and, therefore, almost no heat. There are millions of two-stroke engines out there running long and hard with no dedicated oiling systems whatsoever because their mechanical bearings get what little lubrication they require from the slight amount of oil mist wafting through the crankcase along with the intake mixture. On the other hand, lab tests (some performed at the facility where I work) have shown quite clearly that if you spin a bare crank (no rods/pistons, chains, cams, etc.) in its plain, pressure-fed bearings using an electric motor, considerable heat is generated in the bearings due to the shearing action taking place in the oil between the crank and the bearing shells.

The engine's mechanical oil pump adds even more heat to the oil, not from compressing the oil, but from oil shear that takes place due to internal leakage through the necessary internal clearances in the pump. Of course, since most modern engines have oil pumps, this factor is a "wash"...

BeemerMike

09-06-2008, 07:40 AM

Re-read my post, carefully. I never claimed, nor do I believe, that Mobil 1 V-Twin synthetic is in any way "less capable". In fact, I think it's the best thing since sliced bread...for a Harley Twin-Cam. M1 V-Twin originally hit the market before H-D started selling their own synthetic oil, and the first retail outlet for the oil was the H-D dealer network. The point of my post, and I apologize if I did not make my meaning clear, was that the oil requirements of the Boxer in my RT probably share more in common with a liquid-cooled car engine than with an air-cooled Harley! Hell, there are probably several people on this forum who have been very successfully running M1 V-Twin in their Beemers and are happy as clams because, though it wasn't formulated specifically for our Boxers, it is very good oil.

OK, I reread your originally post . . . several times. If you are not saying Mobil 1 V-Twin is "less capable" (than other Mobil 1 engine oils?), then you must be saying that the V-Twin "special formulation" for H-D engines makes it inappropriate for a BMW engine. Correct? If correct, what do you think the "special formulation" is, and what do you think "formulated specifically for our Boxers" means (BMW oil, Mobil 1, or any other brand)?

I think what you will find is that in the various Mobil 1 engines oils, the basestock oil is roughly the same, although they have different viscosity ranges (of course), and that the differences in the auto vs. motocycle oils have to do with the friction modifiers for wet clutch service and the ZDDP content for antiwear properties (e.g., for valve train components). If you have some other insight into "special formulation", please let us know.

As for roller bearings vs. plain bearings and relative oil requirements, that wasn't my post.

1analguy

09-07-2008, 12:36 AM

:banghead :banghead :banghead OK...one last try, and then I'm done posting on oil-related threads. Thank you for so thoroughly teaching me this lesson:stick .

I wasn't comparing M1 V-Twin to other Mobil synthetics, or too any other oil, for that matter. The original poster was running M1 V-Twin in his Harley and was considering running it in his Beemer as well. Like the blithering idiot that I so obviously am, I thought I'd point out (just as a point to consider, mind you) that M1 V-Twin was originally targeted specifically at owners of H-D Big Twins and Sportsters as those engines are a bit different in their oil requirements. I do not think that the engineers at Mobil Oil ever sat down at a meeting and said "hey, we really should come out with a crappy, less capable oil for all those stupid Harley owners". I do think that they sat down at a meeting and said "hey, those air-cooled V twins with all the mechanical bearings in them really have some special requirements. Why don't we see if we can come up with good synthetic oil that will do a better job for them"? And they did. And it's wonderful stuff too, probably the best oil available for an air-cooled H-D. That's all I was trying to say, and if I was unclear about it, I'm truly very sorry. If he, or anyone else, wants to use M1 V-Twin in some other engine configuration then by all means, go nuts and God bless. It's good enough oil that they'll probably have great luck with it, even though they'll be using it in an application for which it was not originally intended.

For the record, I've been using Mobil 1 synthetic oil in all my cars and trucks since it first came on the market around 1970, and have always had great luck with it.

Also, I do realize that the whole "plain vs mechanical bearing" thing was not your baby. I should have figured out by now how to post a reply with more than one quote in it, but I haven't. I regret that, as a result, my post made it appear that I was laying that on you as well. I did not intend to do so.

BeemerMike

09-07-2008, 07:50 AM

OK...one last try, and then I'm done posting on oil-related threads. Thank you for so thoroughly teaching me this lesson.

I wasn't comparing M1 V-Twin to other Mobil synthetics, or too any other oil, for that matter. The original poster was running M1 V-Twin in his Harley and was considering running it in his Beemer as well. Like the blithering idiot that I so obviously am, I thought I'd point out (just as a point to consider, mind you) that M1 V-Twin was originally targeted specifically at owners of H-D Big Twins and Sportsters as those engines are a bit different in their oil requirements. I do not think that the engineers at Mobil Oil ever sat down at a meeting and said "hey, we really should come out with a crappy, less capable oil for all those stupid Harley owners". I do think that they sat down at a meeting and said "hey, those air-cooled V twins with all the mechanical bearings in them really have some special requirements. Why don't we see if we can come up with good synthetic oil that will do a better job for them"? . . . It's good enough oil that they'll probably have great luck with it, even though they'll be using it in an application for which it was not originally intended.

You seem to think I am attacking you, or criticizing you, and I am not . . . really.

However, your posts seem to be stating . . . or suggesting . . . or offering for consideration (whatever description you want to use), that somehow since Mobil 1 V-Twin 20w-50 is "specially formulated" for H-D engines it may be inappropriate for BMW motorcycle engines. I am not trying to defend Mobil 1 oil (no need to), but rather I have only been asking you WHY you think this "H-D" Mobil 1 may be inappropriate for BMW motorcycle engines, so we can all better understand your post. If you don't have any reasons other than "I don't know what is different about it, but there might be something different, so I'm not taking the chance", then OK, just say so and we can all move on. But if you have some objective reasons, then let us all know. We're sharing information here. My posts noted that the differences in V-Twin Mobil 1 (other than its higher price!) are a 20w-50 viscosity, higher ZDDP content than other Mobil 1 oils, and maybe some improved high temperature stability (for that rear H-D cylinder). All those things sounds like good properties to have in your BMW engine oil, unless there is something else "bad" in the V-Twin formulation. I don't know what that might be, so I am asking you if you know of anything.

If I were to post that I am not going to use BMW brand 15w-50 synthetic engine oil in my air-cooled Moto Guzzi V-Twin because that BMW oil is "specially formulated" for BMW engines (I mean, it says "BMW" right on the label), I think other people should rightly ask me WHY I think that.

swall

09-07-2008, 03:23 PM

I was planning on using Mobil 1 in my '07 R1200R as soon as the dealer "600 mile" service was done. I was going to use the 10w40 XT4 or what ever it is currently called, until I read my owner's manual and saw the 10w40 was only good to temperatures below 85F. This led me to the 20w50 "V-Twin" oil. Once I read the excellent oil test report from Amsoil, I concludes that "V-Twin" tracked all of the wear properties of XT4, but slightly better, as would be consistent with a higher viscosity oil. You got to get past the name.

BeemerMike

09-08-2008, 08:11 AM

I was planning on using Mobil 1 in my '07 R1200R as soon as the dealer "600 mile" service was done.

Some others here disagree, but during the warranty period I would NOT use any oil that does have the BMW-specified SAE classification, which I think is SG/SH, even if you think (or know) the other oil is just as good or better.

I was going to use the 10w40 XT4 or what ever it is currently called, until I read my owner's manual and saw the 10w40 was only good to temperatures below 85F. This led me to the 20w50 "V-Twin" oil. Once I read the excellent oil test report from Amsoil, I concludes that "V-Twin" tracked all of the wear properties of XT4, but slightly better, as would be consistent with a higher viscosity oil. You got to get past the name.

Yes, following your owner's manual on oil viscosity. Another Mobil 1 oil to consider for dry clutch motorcycles is the 15w-50 "auto" oils (standard and EP). Both have 1200 ppm ZDDP, compared to the current eco oils at about 800 ppm and V-Twin and XT4 at 1600 ppm. V-Twin costs $2 to $3 more per quart than the 15w-50s.

Yes, it's not what name is written on the label, it's what oil and additives are inside the container!

swall

09-08-2008, 06:15 PM

Well, I already did it. Changed at 4400 miles to Mobil 1 V-Twin and then at 10,400 with the same. Filter changes both times.I'm not using a measurable amount of oil between the changes.

BeemerMike

09-09-2008, 10:45 AM

Well, I already did it. Changed at 4400 miles to Mobil 1 V-Twin and then at 10,400 with the same. Filter changes both times.I'm not using a measurable amount of oil between the changes.

I think you have a fine oil in your R1200R. Mobil 1 V-Twin 20w-50 is exactly what is in my 1995 R1100RS . . . but then my bike is out of warranty, so no potential warranty claim issues between BMW and me about not using an SG/SH oil in my bike.

MrGrocer

09-09-2008, 11:36 AM

Is it all this complicated? should I just hang it up? Does the oil in anyone's hex or oilhead Beemer actually stay in the engine long enough for it to be a factor?

Heck, I go in to Wal-Mart and grab a bottle of 20-w50 castrol. Its not like its going to be there long enough to break down.

Don't I just warm up the engine (I do this by riding it, call me crazy) and when I stop for gas I put it on the center stand and pray to the pavement. If the oil is lower than the little gidgie in the middle of the glass, I put some in.

I have the on board computer gidgie, too. I drive about 30 minutes and it tells me to add oil (OK, thats an embellishment) So, I'm belt and suspenders.

My airhead never burned any oil. I used 15w50 mobil extended performance in case I wanted it for extended performance/

I'm a little jealous. I wanted the new GS so I sold my Rockster to a friend just when it was ceasing to burn oil. I used the 15w50 synth in it to (cuz I got a bunch of it real cheap)

Life is complicated enough, engine oil (really) is not.