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JK
07-22-2008, 10:34 AM
FWIW -

Thought I'd pass along the real "story/science" on oil/gas creation/reserves.

J.K. :wow

++++++++++++++++

Here is the first accurate, comprehensive article regarding geologic oil production that I’ve ever seen. One of my best friends, who became Chief Petroleum Engineer for ARCO, shared this information with me 40 years ago when he was an undergrad at Texas A&M. I just couldn’t remember any of the names which were associated with the research so I couldn’t document the historical research. This article takes care of all of that. Feel free to share the information because it seems that both sides of the aisle want to keep us stupid and under their control.

Ladrue "Drue" Jordan
Office 858-618-1440 ext. 111 / Cell 619-851-9909 / Fax 858-618-5935

************************************************

Oil is NOT a fossil fuel and AGW is non-science
By Online Monday, July 14, 2008
by Peter J. Morgan

We all grew up believing that oil is a fossil fuel, and just about every day this 'fact' is mentioned in newspapers and on TV. However, let us not forget what Lenin said - "A lie told often enough becomes truth."

It was in 1757 that the great Russian scholar Mikhailo V. Lomonosov enunciated the hypothesis that oil might originate from biological detritus.

The scientists who first rejected Lomonsov's hypothesis, at the beginning of the nineteenth century, were the famous German naturalist and geologist Alexander von Humboldt and the French chemist and thermodynamicist Louis Joseph Gay-Lussac, who together enunciated the proposition that oil is a primordial material erupted from great depth, and is unconnected with any biological matter near the surface of the Earth.

With the development of chemistry during the nineteenth century, and following particularly the enunciation of the second law of thermodynamics by Clausius in 1850, Lomonosov's biological hypothesis came inevitably under attack.

In science, a hypothesis is merely somebody's attempt to explain something. It is merely that - an attempt. In the scientific method, a hypothesis is also an open invitation for somebody else to discredit it by using physical evidence to demonstrate that the hypothesis is flawed, or incorrect - that is how scientific knowledge is advanced. Einstein is reputed to have remarked that just one fact was all that was needed to invalidate his theory of relativity.

The great French chemist Marcellin Berthelot particularly scorned the hypothesis of a biological origin for petroleum. Berthelot first carried out experiments involving, among others, a series of what are now referred to as Kolbe reactions and demonstrated the generation of petroleum by dissolving steel in strong acid.

He produced the suite of n-alkanes and made it plain that such were generated in total absence of any "biological" molecule or process.

Berthelot's investigations were later extended and refined by other scientists, including Biasson and Sokolov, all of whom observed similar phenomena and likewise concluded that petroleum was unconnected to biological matter.

During the last quarter of the nineteenth century, the great Russian chemist Dmitri Mendeleev also examined and rejected Lomonosov's hypothesis of a biological origin for petroleum.

In contrast to Berthelot who had made no suggestion as to where or how petroleum might have come, Mendeleev stated clearly that petroleum is a primordial material which has erupted from great depth.

With extraordinary perception, Mendeleev hypothesized the existence of geological structures which he called "deep faults," and correctly identified such as the locus of weakness in the crust of the Earth via which petroleum would travel from the depths.

After he made that hypothesis, Mendeleev was abusively criticized by the geologists of his time, for the notion of deep faults was then unknown. Today, of course, an understanding of plate tectonics would be unimaginable without recognition of deep faults.

Soon after the end of World War II, the Soviet dictator, Stalin, realized that the then Soviet Union needed its own substantial oil reserves and production system if it was ever again called upon to defend itself against an attacker such as Hitler's Germany.

In 1947, the Soviet Union had, as its petroleum 'experts' then estimated, very limited petroleum reserves, of which the largest were the oil fields in the region of the Abseron Peninsula, near the Caspian city of Baku in what is now the independent country of Azerbaijan.

At that time, the oil fields near Baku were considered to be "depleting" and "nearing exhaustion."

During World War II, the Soviets had occupied the two northern provinces of Iran, but in 1946, they were forced out by the British. By 1947, the Soviets realized that the American, British, and French were not going to allow them to operate in the Middle East, nor in the petroleum producing areas of Africa, nor Indonesia, nor Burma, nor Malaysia, nor anywhere in the Far East, nor in Latin America.

The government of the Soviet Union recognized then that new petroleum reserves would have to be discovered and developed within the U.S.S.R.

Stalin's response was to set up a task force of top scientists and engineers in a project similar to the Manhattan Project - the top-secret US program to develop the atom bomb during WWII - and initially under the same secrecy, and charged them with the task of finding out what oil was, where it came from and how to find, recover and efficiently refine it.

In 1951, the modern Russian-Ukrainian theory of deep, abiotic petroleum origins was first enunciated by Nikolai A. Kudryavtsev at the All-Union petroleum geology congress.

Kudryavtsev analyzed the hypothesis of a biological origin of petroleum, and pointed out the failures of the claims then commonly put forth to support that hypothesis. Kudryavtsev was soon joined by numerous other Russian and Ukrainian geologists, among the first of whom were P. N. Kropotkin, K. A. Shakhvarstova, G. N. Dolenko, V. F. Linetskii, V. B. Porfir'yev, and K. A. Anikiev.

During the first decade of its existence, the modern theory of petroleum origins was the subject of great contention and controversy.

Between the years 1951 and 1965, with the leadership of Kudryavtsev and Porfir'yev, increasing numbers of geologists published articles demonstrating the failures and inconsistencies inherent in the old "biogenic origin" hypothesis.

With the passing of the first decade of the modern theory, the failure of Lomonosov's eighteenth century hypothesis of an origin of petroleum from biological detritus in the near-surface sediments had been thoroughly demonstrated, the hypothesis discredited, and the modern theory firmly established.

An important point to be recognized is that the modern Russian-Ukrainian theory of abiotic petroleum origins was, initially, a geologists' theory. Kudryavtsev, Kropotkin, Dolenko, Porfir'yev and the developers of the modern theory of petroleum were all geologists.

Their arguments were necessarily those of geologists, developed from many observations, and much data, organized into a pattern, and argued by persuasion.

By contrast, the practice of mainstream, predictive modern science, particularly physics and chemistry, involves a minimum of observation or data, and applies only a minimum of physical law, inevitably expressed with formal mathematics, and argued by compulsion.

Such predictive proof of the geologists' assertions for the modern Russian-Ukrainian theory of deep, abiotic petroleum origins had to wait almost a half century, for such required the development not only of modern quantum statistical mechanics, but also that of the techniques of many-body theory and the application of statistical geometry to the analysis of dense fluids, designated scaled particle theory.

To recapitulate, Stalin's team of scientists and engineers found that oil is not a 'fossil fuel' but is a natural product of planet earth - the high-temperature, high-pressure continuous reaction between calcium carbonate and iron oxide - two of the most abundant compounds making up the earth's crust.

This continuous reaction occurs at a depth of approximately 100 km at a pressure of approximately 50,000 atmospheres (5 GPa) and a temperature of approximately 1500°C, and will continue more or less until the 'death' of planet earth in millions of years' time.

The high pressure, as well as centrifugal acceleration from the earth's rotation, causes oil to continuously seep up along fissures in the earth's crust into subterranean caverns, which we call oil fields. Oil is still being produced in great abundance, and is a sustainable resource - by the same definition that makes geothermal energy a sustainable resource.

All we have to do is develop better geotechnical science to predict where it is and learn how to drill down deep enough to get to it. So far, the Russians have drilled to more than 13 km and found oil. In contrast, the deepest any Western oil company has drilled is around 4.5 km.

A team consisting of Russian scientists and Dr J. F. Kenney, of Gas Resources Corporation, Houston, USA, have actually built a reactor vessel and proven that oil is produced from calcium carbonate and iron oxide, as detailed on the Gas Resources website.

This is what Dr Kenney has to say about how he came to be involved:

"In the first instance, the articles on this" (his company's website http://www.gasresources.com) "are dedicated to the memory of Nikolai Alexandrovich Kudryavtsev, who first enunciated in 19511 what has become the modern Russian-Ukrainian theory of deep, abiotic petroleum origins. After Kudryavtsev, all the rest followed. Secondly, these articles are dedicated generally to the many geologists, geochemists, geophysicists, and petroleum engineers of the former U.S.S.R. who, during the past half century, developed modern petroleum science. By doing so, they raised their country from being, in 1946, a relatively petroleum-poor one, to the greatest petroleum producing and exporting nation in the world today. These articles are dedicated specifically to the late Academician Emmanuil Bogdanovich Chekaliuk, the greatest statistical thermodynamicist ever to have turned his formidable intellect to the problem of petroleum genesis. In the Summer of 1976, during the depths of the cold war and at immeasurable hazard, Academician Chekaliuk chose to respond, across a gulf of political hostility, to an unsolicited letter from an unknown American chief executive officer of a petroleum company headquartered in Houston, Texas. Thenafter and for almost fifteen years, Academician Chekaliuk was my teacher, my collaborator, and my friend. [JFK] 1. Kudryavtsev, N. A. (1951) Petroleum Economy [Neftianoye Khozyaistvo] 9, 17-29."

Needless to say, the last people to tell us the truth about oil will be the oil producers and oil companies, for they of course have a vested interest in perpetuating the myth that oil is a fossil fuel and that it will soon be exhausted, in order to ratchet up the price for as long as they can. And don't look to the Russians to enlighten the world with the truth about oil either, for they are surely laughing now that the oil price is approaching $US150 a barrel.

A US Public Service Radio interview with Dr Kenney may be heard on the Gas Resources website.

Some may ask "How come all of this isn't commonly known?" For the answer, one needs to consider what happened to Galileo when he first put forward the hypothesis that rather than the conventional wisdom that the sun revolved around the earth, the earth revolved around the sun. He was branded a heretic and locked up! You are invited to read an excellent article entitled "Cognitive Processes and the Suppression of Sound Scientific Ideas", by J. Sacherman 1997, at http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/supress1.html

Some may say "Well, even if oil is a renewable resource, mankind should not burn it because the carbon dioxide so produced causes global warming." My answer to that is that the idea that mankind's production of carbon dioxide causes global warming is merely a hypothesis, and this has been thoroughly discredited by Prof. Robert Carter and numerous other scientists.

You are invited to view a video of Prof. Robert Carter's demolition of the "mankind's production of carbon dioxide causes global warming" hypothesis here where you will see Prof. Carter illustrate five examples of verifiable science that refute the hypothesis.

Prof. Carter makes the point that truth in science is never decided by consensus, but if you prefer to believe the pronouncement by the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) that "2,500 scientists of the United Nation's IPCC agree that humans are causing a climate crisis", which is repeated ad nauseam by environmentalists, the press and governments around the world, including ours, then you are invited to read an article at Canada Free Press where Tom Harris and John McLean tell the truth about this deception and point out that "an example of rampant misrepresentation of IPCC reports is the frequent assertion that 'hundreds of IPCC scientists' are known to support the following statement, arguably the most important of the WG I report, namely "Greenhouse gas forcing has very likely caused most of the observed global warming over the last 50 years." In total, only 62 scientists reviewed the chapter in which this statement appears, the critical chapter 9, "Understanding and Attributing Climate Change". Almost 60% of the comments received from the 62 expert reviewers of this critical chapter were rejected by the IPCC editors and 55 of the 62 expert reviewers had serious vested interest, leaving only seven expert reviewers who appear impartial. In my view, seven does not constitute "a consensus of the world's scientists.." If it's consensus you want before you decide on what the truth is, then follow the link to The National Post to read about the petition signed by more than 32,000 scientists, more than 9000 of whom hold PhDs. That's consensus.

We all know what has been happening to food prices, mostly as a direct result of US government subsidies for the production of ethanol from corn.

The current US strategy, driven by the erroneous belief that oil is a fossil fuel and that its supply will soon be exhausted, is illogical.

Given the fact that oil is abiotic and is in continuous production deep down in the earth's crust, at rates far in excess of what mankind could ever conceivably consume, it makes absolutely no sense for any nation to buy it from foreign sources if it is cheaper to drill for and pump its own - and that is precisely what the US should be doing immediately, without ever needing to go near the wildlife reserves in Alaska.

If the US switched from being a net consumer in the world oil market to becoming a net supplier, the price of oil would plunge, perhaps to around $US30 per barrel, with the result that the world's economies would boom as never before.

Most importantly, people would have confidence to invest in their futures, safe in the knowledge that oil would never run out. An extra bonus would be that the US military-industrial-political complex would no longer feel the need to use military force to control the Middle East's oil supplies, and neither would any other world power.

A further bonus would be that all subsidies to producers of alternative fuels and energy supplies could be removed, with the result that such production would occur only if it was economically viable, which in almost , if not all, cases would mean that such producers would cease business.

Each of us in our own small way can now burn as much petroleum product as we can afford to put in our cars and boats, safe in the knowledge that (a) oil is never going to run out and (b) all the extra carbon dioxide we produce will not cause global warming, but will help plants, and hence food, to grow faster, thus helping to feed the billions!

Please feel free to contact your local political representative and urge him or her to put a stop to the lunacy of trying to reduce mankind's carbon dioxide 'emissions', and put a stop to talking about oil as a 'fossil fuel'.

The sooner people wake up to the non-science of 'global warming' and 'oil is a fossil fuel' and 'burning oil is an environmental sin', the better off we and our children and our children's children (etc.) will be.

GrafikFeat
07-22-2008, 12:15 PM
To recapitulate, Stalin's team of scientists and engineers found that oil is not a 'fossil fuel' but is a natural product of planet earth - the high-temperature, high-pressure continuous reaction between calcium carbonate and iron oxide - two of the most abundant compounds making up the earth's crust.

This continuous reaction occurs at a depth of approximately 100 km at a pressure of approximately 50,000 atmospheres (5 GPa) and a temperature of approximately 1500°C, and will continue more or less until the 'death' of planet earth in millions of years' time.

The high pressure, as well as centrifugal acceleration from the earth's rotation, causes oil to continuously seep up along fissures in the earth's crust into subterranean caverns, which we call oil fields. Oil is still being produced in great abundance, and is a sustainable resource - by the same definition that makes geothermal energy a sustainable resource ... The sooner people wake up to the non-science of 'global warming' and 'oil is a fossil fuel' and 'burning oil is an environmental sin', the better off we and our children and our children's children (etc.) will be.

Thats very interesting up until the last thought. How does this NOT affect global warming. There still remains the after-effect or by-product if you will of combustion.
The fact that it is an "unlimited" supply does not change that.
We need to advance, as a civilization, past an "infernal" combustion engine. Period!

glennhendricks
07-22-2008, 12:27 PM
Abiotic oil comes up every couple of years. No evidence exists that it is a potentially commercial source of petroleum. As for the whole centrifugal force thing?

Heh. No.

The 'signed by PhDs' global warming thing is also common bunk. There are a few, very few, climate scientists that are doubters but the vast majority of scientists who are in the field do not dispute that we are going through global climate change and that man's actions have had an impact on that change. Most of the folks who have signed that thing aren't in hard science or are in completely different fields like economics.

I find it difficult to believe that the Soviets had it right.:brow

rocketman
07-22-2008, 12:32 PM
Abiotic oil comes up every couple of years. No evidence exists that it is a potentially commercial source of petroleum. As for the whole centrifugal force thing?

Heh. No.

The 'signed by PhDs' global warming thing is also common bunk. There are a few, very few, climate scientists that are doubters but the vast majority of scientists who are in the field do not dispute that we are going through global climate change and that man's actions have had an impact on that change. Most of the folks who have signed that thing aren't in hard science or are in completely different fields like economics.

I find it difficult to believe that the Soviets had it right.:brow


In other words

don't fall for this fishing expidition! :laugh

check the source while you're at it... then consider if its worth getting in a tizzy about. Ha Ha!

RM

glennhendricks
07-22-2008, 12:41 PM
WE HAVE A WINNAH!!:clap

JK
07-22-2008, 12:53 PM
Thats very interesting up until the last thought. How does this NOT affect global warming. There still remains the after-effect or by-product if you will of combustion.
The fact that it is an "unlimited" supply does not change that.
We need to advance, as a civilization, past an "infernal" combustion engine. Period!

Combustion engines (internal/infernal) have made tremendous advances in the past century. From efficiency (hp/cc > 1) to by-products/emissions, the results have been eye-watering. Likewise, cost and reliability have been reduced and increased.

Furthermore, innovation and technology for future advances haven't come close to being "exhausted."

Sadly, the SUN's performance has bee a bit more "spotty." Ice Ages have come and gone (natural heating and cooling cycle) for the last 100M years. That's why Chicago isn't buried under a quarter-mile of glacial ice, the last time I looked.

Clearly, man's natural plight and nature is to dread and worry. So self-absorbed with our own self-importance and lack of immortality, we think the Universe revolves around and because of us. Unable to accept the status quo of going with the flow (like Noah), mankind is forever attempting to inject and infer causal relationships where there are none.

Finally, simply observing skews the outcome of an experiment, don'tcha know.

In summary, civilization marches on (with bird flu, it tends to goose-step). Myself, I'm just another brick in the wall (thicker or thinner, as the mood and moment melts and molds me.)

IMHO :buds

J.K. :wow

jenunn
07-22-2008, 01:09 PM
Combustion engines (internal/infernal) have made tremendous advances in the past century. From efficiency (hp/cc > 1) to by-products/emissions, the results have been eye-watering. Likewise, cost and reliability have been reduced and increased.

Furthermore, innovation and technology for future advances haven't come close to being "exhausted."

Sadly, the SUN's performance has bee a bit more "spotty." Ice Ages have come and gone (natural heating and cooling cycle) for the last 100M years. That's why Chicago isn't buried under a quarter-mile of glacial ice, the last time I looked.

Clearly, man's natural plight and nature is to dread and worry. So self-absorbed with our own self-importance and lack of immortality, we think the Universe revolves around and because of us. Unable to accept the status quo of going with the flow (like Noah), mankind is forever attempting to inject and infer causal relationships where there are none.

Finally, simply observing skews the outcome of an experiment, don'tcha know.

In summary, civilization marches on (with bird flu, it tends to goose-step). Myself, I'm just another brick in the wall (thicker or thinner, as the mood and moment melts and molds me.)

IMHO :buds

J.K. :wow


+1

glennhendricks
07-22-2008, 02:04 PM
In summary, civilization marches on (with bird flu, it tends to goose-step).

hlothery
07-22-2008, 02:22 PM
Myself, I'm just another brick in the wall (thicker or thinner, as the mood and moment melts and molds me.)

J.K. :wow

Nice........Pink Floyd and Jethro Tull in the same analogy.:D

Artiee
07-22-2008, 02:39 PM
Many years ago lived an emperor, who thought so much of new clothes that he spent all his money in order to obtain them; his only ambition was to be always well dressed. He did not care for his soldiers, and the theatre did not amuse him; the only thing, in fact, he thought anything of was to drive out and show a new suit of clothes. He had a coat for every hour of the day; and as one would say of a king “He is in his cabinet,” so one could say of him, “The emperor is in his dressing-room.”

The great city where he resided was very gay; every day many strangers from all parts of the globe arrived. One day two swindlers came to this city; they made people believe that they were weavers, and declared they could manufacture the finest cloth to be imagined. Their colors and patterns, they said, were not only exceptionally beautiful, but the clothes made of their material possessed the wonderful quality of being invisible to any man who was unfit for his office or unpardonably stupid.

“That must be wonderful cloth,” thought the emperor. “If I were to be dressed in a suit made of this cloth I should be able to find out which men in my empire were unfit for their places, and I could distinguish the clever from the stupid. I must have this cloth woven for me without delay.” And he gave a large sum of money to the swindlers, in advance, that they should set to work without any loss of time. They set up two looms, and pretended to be very hard at work, but they did nothing whatever on the looms. They asked for the finest silk and the most precious gold-cloth; all they got they did away with, and worked at the empty looms till late at night.

“I should very much like to know how they are getting on with the cloth,” thought the emperor. But he felt rather uneasy when he remembered that he who was not fit for his office could not see it. Personally, he was of opinion that he had nothing to fear, yet he thought it advisable to send somebody else first to see how matters stood. Everybody in the town knew what a remarkable quality the stuff possessed, and all were anxious to see how bad or stupid their neighbors were.

“I shall send my honest old minister to the weavers,” thought the emperor. “He can judge best how the stuff looks, for he is intelligent, and nobody understands his office better than he.”

The good old minister went into the room where the swindlers sat before the empty looms. “Heaven preserve us!” he thought, and opened his eyes wide, “I cannot see anything at all,” but he did not say so. Both swindlers requested him to come near, and asked him if he did not admire the exquisite pattern and the beautiful colors, pointing to the empty looms. The poor old minister tried his very best, but he could see nothing, for there was nothing to be seen. “Oh dear,” he thought, “can I be so stupid? I should never have thought so, and nobody must know it! Is it possible that I am not fit for my office? No, no, I cannot say that I was unable to see the cloth.”

“Now, have you got nothing to say?” said one of the swindlers, while he pretended to be busily weaving.

“Oh, it is very pretty, exceedingly beautiful,” replied the old minister looking through his glasses. “What a beautiful pattern, what brilliant colors! I shall tell the emperor that I like the cloth very much.”

“We are pleased to hear that,” said the two weavers, and described to him the colors and explained the curious pattern. The old minister listened attentively, that he might relate to the emperor what they said; and so he did.

Now the swindlers asked for more money, silk and gold-cloth, which they required for weaving. They kept everything for themselves, and not a thread came near the loom, but they continued, as hitherto, to work at the empty looms.

Soon afterwards the emperor sent another honest courtier to the weavers to see how they were getting on, and if the cloth was nearly finished. Like the old minister, he looked and looked but could see nothing, as there was nothing to be seen.

“Is it not a beautiful piece of cloth?” asked the two swindlers, showing and explaining the magnificent pattern, which, however, did not exist.

“I am not stupid,” said the man. “It is therefore my good appointment for which I am not fit. It is very strange, but I must not let any one know it;” and he praised the cloth, which he did not see, and expressed his joy at the beautiful colors and the fine pattern. “It is very excellent,” he said to the emperor.

Everybody in the whole town talked about the precious cloth. At last the emperor wished to see it himself, while it was still on the loom. With a number of courtiers, including the two who had already been there, he went to the two clever swindlers, who now worked as hard as they could, but without using any thread.
“Is it not magnificent?” said the two old statesmen who had been there before. “Your Majesty must admire the colors and the pattern.” And then they pointed to the empty looms, for they imagined the others could see the cloth.

“What is this?” thought the emperor, “I do not see anything at all. That is terrible! Am I stupid? Am I unfit to be emperor? That would indeed be the most dreadful thing that could happen to me.”

“Really,” he said, turning to the weavers, “your cloth has our most gracious approval;” and nodding contentedly he looked at the empty loom, for he did not like to say that he saw nothing. All his attendants, who were with him, looked and looked, and although they could not see anything more than the others, they said, like the emperor, “It is very beautiful.” And all advised him to wear the new magnificent clothes at a great procession which was soon to take place. “It is magnificent, beautiful, excellent,” one heard them say; everybody seemed to be delighted, and the emperor appointed the two swindlers “Imperial Court weavers.”

The whole night previous to the day on which the procession was to take place, the swindlers pretended to work, and burned more than sixteen candles. People should see that they were busy to finish the emperor’s new suit. They pretended to take the cloth from the loom, and worked about in the air with big scissors, and sewed with needles without thread, and said at last: “The emperor’s new suit is ready now.”

The emperor and all his barons then came to the hall; the swindlers held their arms up as if they held something in their hands and said: “These are the trousers!” “This is the coat!” and “Here is the cloak!” and so on. “They are all as light as a cobweb, and one must feel as if one had nothing at all upon the body; but that is just the beauty of them.”

“Indeed!” said all the courtiers; but they could not see anything, for there was nothing to be seen.

“Does it please your Majesty now to graciously undress,” said the swindlers, “that we may assist your Majesty in putting on the new suit before the large looking-glass?”

The emperor undressed, and the swindlers pretended to put the new suit upon him, one piece after another; and the emperor looked at himself in the glass from every side.

“How well they look! How well they fit!” said all. “What a beautiful pattern! What fine colors! That is a magnificent suit of clothes!”

The master of the ceremonies announced that the bearers of the canopy, which was to be carried in the procession, were ready.

“I am ready,” said the emperor. “Does not my suit fit me marvelously?” Then he turned once more to the looking-glass, that people should think he admired his garments.

The chamberlains, who were to carry the train, stretched their hands to the ground as if they lifted up a train, and pretended to hold something in their hands; they did not like people to know that they could not see anything.
The emperor marched in the procession under the beautiful canopy, and all who saw him in the street and out of the windows exclaimed: “Indeed, the emperor’s new suit is incomparable! What a long train he has! How well it fits him!” Nobody wished to let others know he saw nothing, for then he would have been unfit for his office or too stupid. Never emperor’s clothes were more admired.

“But he has nothing on at all,” said a little child at last. “Good heavens! listen to the voice of an innocent child,” said the father, and one whispered to the other what the child had said. “But he has nothing on at all,” cried at last the whole people. That made a deep impression upon the emperor, for it seemed to him that they were right; but he thought to himself, “Now I must bear up to the end.” And the chamberlains walked with still greater dignity, as if they carried the train which did not exist.
<
<
<
Too many courtiers and chamberlains and not enough courageous children. Enjoy your motorcycle riding while you can because you just may get what you're asking for.

Fritzc
07-22-2008, 02:51 PM
"Horse Hockey" was a favorite expression of Colonel Potter on the TV show "M.A.S.H.
As I read through this thread, that expression came to mind repeatedly. I googled some of the main characters quoted in the thread and soon came to that conclusion.

hlothery
07-22-2008, 03:44 PM
"Horse Hockey" was a favorite expression of Colonel Potter on the TV show "M.A.S.H.
As I read through this thread, that expression came to mind repeatedly. I googled some of the main characters quoted in the thread and soon came to that conclusion.

I can assure you that Pink Floyd and Jethro Tull are real!:stick :D

Otherwise, I totally agree with your assessment.

BubbaZanetti
07-22-2008, 04:31 PM
true or false it's denier talk (speculation) all the way.

current "green" trends are a positive step in the right direction even if the earth has an unlimited supply of "fuel".

535is
07-22-2008, 04:41 PM
"Horse Hockey" was a favorite expression of Colonel Potter on the TV show "M.A.S.H.

"Mule muffins!" :D

glennhendricks
07-22-2008, 05:36 PM
Or would that be Bison?

Oldhway
07-22-2008, 08:39 PM
Any way you slice 'em, they're still road apples to me.

AllanCook
07-23-2008, 06:37 AM
I'm wary of any conclusions based on Soviet "science." The U.S.S.R. had some real nutjobs working in its labs.

mrich12000
07-23-2008, 08:43 AM
:gerg :ca :hide In the end we all walk through that Event Horizon.

JK
07-23-2008, 08:55 AM
I'm wary of any conclusions based on Soviet "science." The U.S.S.R. had some real nutjobs working in its labs.

Sorry Allen -

When "our" scientists dismantled the former Soviet chem/biological research labs and weapon systems (in exchange for massive transfer payments to prop up the Yelstin economy as they transitioned to a capitalist model), we were shocked to have UNDER-ESTIMATED their actual capabilities by a factor of ten.

Leason learned; never under-estimate your enemies... :deal

J.K. :wow

GrafikFeat
08-02-2008, 12:07 AM
In other words don't fall for this fishing expidition! :laugh

"It must be true... I read it on the 'Internets'..."
The same as your postings/opinions.

I said it was interesting... I didn't say Hooray, the oil crisis is over.

Sheesh...

Oh, it's "expedition" since we are critiquing posts. :stick

rocketman
08-02-2008, 05:05 AM
"It must be true... I read it on the 'Internets'..."
The same as your postings/opinions.

I said it was interesting... I didn't say Hooray, the oil crisis is over.

Sheesh...

Oh, it's "expedition" since we are critiquing posts. :stick

Hmm you must have mis-read my post, I was agreeing with you!

As for critiquing your thread, I really have no idea where that came from, but don't expect me to apologize for my visual handicaps such as being dyslectic, it is what it is....

I was referring to the original thread and quoted you because I too question the "science" of abiodic oil. Oil is Hydro-carbon and unless the basic science of life has radically changed, water and carbon Are the building blocks of life, so a relationship between the two seems pretty obvious.

As for my posts, unlike jk I try not to come across as if the information I may present is the gospel truth, perhaps I'm not always successful at it, but I do think I take much different approach than him.

So FWIW, Sorry if you misread me, I thought I was clear that I was in basic agreement with your statement and was simply building on that.

RM

sjbmw
08-02-2008, 05:40 AM
I'm wary of any conclusions based on Soviet "science." The U.S.S.R. had some real nutjobs working in its labs.

One word: Sputnik.

pffog
08-02-2008, 09:53 AM
Best take on the future of the planet I have seen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3q3upFx4FcA

yappo
08-02-2008, 01:28 PM
al gore won it.and he told us all about our future.bad things will happen to our earth and all life.lots of scientists in almost every field tell us about the impending misfortunes that are coming our way.wang chung that most able chinese advisor to the throne once proclaimed "the wheel who sings will gather the emperors ear."it was true then and it's so now.ask al,and follow the money.ask the enviromental movers,and follow the money.ask the academics,and follow the money.deception and lies repeated endlessly have made al and friends rich beyond their wildest dreams.a new industry created out of bogus science and fascist ideology.who knew then,what treasure and power would come their way.so,follow the money.for all us chumps who dont worship fat al and all his ilk,who dont buy the party line.wait,nature aint done yet.keep warm.

GrafikFeat
08-02-2008, 02:58 PM
Hmm you must have mis-read my post, I was agreeing with you! ... So FWIW, Sorry if you misread me, I thought I was clear that I was in basic agreement with your statement and was simply building on that.

RM

Yum... Crow tastes great served fresh! :banghead ---> :hungover

Sorry...
No need for your apology for my boneheadedness!

rocketman
08-02-2008, 06:53 PM
Yum... Crow tastes great served fresh! :banghead ---> :hungover

Sorry...
No need for your apology for my boneheadedness!

Well, you ain't the first and I wouldn't be surprised if I didn't wind being the last! Ha Ha!

RM

GrafikFeat
08-02-2008, 08:09 PM
'Fossil fuel' theory takes hit with NASA finding
New study shows methane on Saturn's moon Titan not biological
© 2008 WorldNetDaily.com

NASA scientists are about to publish conclusive studies showing abundant methane of a non-biologic nature is found on Saturn's giant moon Titan, a finding that validates a new book's contention that oil is not a fossil fuel.

"We have determined that Titan's methane is not of biologic origin," reports Hasso Niemann of the Goddard Space Flight Center, a principal NASA investigator responsible for the Gas Chromatograph Mass Spectrometer aboard the Cassini-Huygens probe that landed on Titan Jan. 14.

Niemann concludes the methane "must be replenished by geologic processes on Titan, perhaps venting from a supply in the interior that could have been trapped there as the moon formed."

The studies announced by NASA yesterday will be reported in the Dec. 8 issue of the scientific journal Nature.

"This finding confirms one of the key arguments in 'Black Gold Stranglehold: The Myth of Scarcity and the Politics of Oil,'" claims co-author Jerome R. Corsi. "We argue that oil and natural gas are abiotic products, not 'fossil fuels' that are biologically created by the debris of dead dinosaurs and ancient forests."

Methane has been synthetically created in the laboratory, Corsi points out, "and now NASA confirms that abiotic methane is abundantly found on Titan."

The realization that hydrocarbons are produced inorganically throughout our solar system was a key insight that led Cornell University astronomer Thomas Gold to write his 1998 book, "The Deep Hot Biosphere: The Myth of Fossil Fuels." Gold wrote:

It would be surprising indeed if the earth had obtained its hydrocarbons only from a source that biology had taken from another carbon-bearing gas – carbon dioxide – which would have been collected from the atmosphere by photo-synthesizing organisms for manufacture into carbohydrates and then somehow reworked by geology into hydrocarbons. All this, while the planetary bodies bereft of surface life would have received their hydrocarbon gifts by purely abiogenic causes.

Gold wryly noted that he was sure there had not been any "big stagnant swamps on Titan" to produce the biological debris that conventionally trained geologists think was required on Earth to produce oil and natural gas as a "fossil fuel."

"If petroleum and natural gas are abiotic as we maintain in 'Black Gold Stranglehold,'" Corsi commented, "then the 'peak oil' fear that we are going to run out of oil may have been based on a giant misconception."

Paradigms in science change slowly and with great resistance, he noted, "But NASA has given us today incontrovertible evidence that Titan has abundant inorganic methane."

"If the scientists have ruled out that biological processes created methane on Titan, why do petro-geologists still argue that natural gas on Earth is of biological origin?" Corsi asked.

GrafikFeat
08-02-2008, 08:21 PM
Discovery backs theory oil not 'fossil fuel'
New evidence supports premise that Earth produces endless supply

Posted: February 01, 2008
By Jerome R. Corsi
© 2008 WorldNetDaily.com

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=59991


A study published in Science Magazine today presents new evidence supporting the abiotic theory for the origin of oil, which asserts oil is a natural product the Earth generates constantly rather than a "fossil fuel" derived from decaying ancient forests and dead dinosaurs.

The lead scientist on the study ? Giora Proskurowski of the School of Oceanography at the University of Washington in Seattle ? says the hydrogen-rich fluids venting at the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean in the Lost City Hydrothermal Field were produced by the abiotic synthesis of hydrocarbons in the mantle of the earth.

The abiotic theory of the origin of oil directly challenges the conventional scientific theory that hydrocarbons are organic in nature, created by the deterioration of biological material deposited millions of years ago in sedimentary rock and converted to hydrocarbons under intense heat and pressure.

While organic theorists have posited that the material required to produce hydrocarbons in sedimentary rock came from dinosaurs and ancient forests, more recent argument have suggested living organisms as small as plankton may have been the origin.

The abiotic theory argues, in contrast, that hydrocarbons are naturally produced on a continual basis throughout the solar system, including within the mantle of the earth. The advocates believe the oil seeps up through bedrock cracks to deposit in sedimentary rock. Traditional petro-geologists, they say, have confused the rock as the originator rather than the depository of the hydrocarbons.

Lost City is a hypothermal field some 2,100 feet below sea level that sits along the Mid-Atlantic Ridge at the center of the Atlantic Ocean, noted for strange 90 to 200 foot white towers on the sea bottom.

In 2003 and again in 2005, Proskurowski and his team descended in a scientific submarine to collect liquid bubbling up from Lost City sea vents.

Proskurowski found hydrocarbons containing carbon-13 isotopes that appeared to be formed from the mantle of the Earth, rather than from biological material settled on the ocean floor.

Carbon 13 is the carbon isotope scientists associate with abiotic origin, compared to Carbon 12 that scientists typically associate with biological origin.

Proskurowski argued that the hydrocarbons found in the natural hydrothermal fluids coming out of the Lost City sea vents is attributable to abiotic production by Fischer-Tropsch, or FTT, reactions.

The Fischer-Tropsch equations were first developed by Nazi scientists who created methodologies for producing synthetic oil from coal.

"Our findings illustrate that the abiotic synthesis of hydrocarbons in nature may occur in the presence of ultramafic rocks, water and moderate amounts of heat," Proskurowski wrote.

The study also confirmed a major argument of Cornell University physicist Thomas Gold, who argued in his book "The Deep Hot Biosphere: The Myth of Fossil Fuels" that micro-organisms found in oil might have come from the mantle of the earth where, absent photosynthesis, the micro-organisms feed on hydrocarbons arising from the earth's mantle in the dark depths of the ocean floors.

Affirming this point, Proskurowski concluded the article by noting, "Hydrocarbon production by FTT could be a common means for producing precursors of life-essential building blocks in ocean-floor environments or wherever warm ultramafic rocks are in contact with water."

Finding abiotic hydrocarbons in the Lost City sea vent fluids is the second discovery in recent years adding weight to the abiotic theory of the origin of oil.

As WND reported in 2005, a NASA probe to Titan, the giant moon of Saturn, discovered abundant Carbon-13 methane that the agency declared to be abiotic in origin.

(I posted the articles in reverse order... :doh )

rocketman
08-03-2008, 04:03 PM
The fact that there may be instances of abiotic hydrocarbons formation, specifically methane gas, does not in and of itself mean that the theory of oil formation from organic material is wrong and should be thrown aside so that those proposing a different theory can say there is nothing to worry about, there is plenty left and we will never run out, because there is a limitless supply of all hydrocarbon bases fuels buried in the earth. As far as I can find the abiotic hydrocarbons found to date are limited to methane gas (as on Jupiter) and in the article in Science Magazine they simply said "fluids" did not seem to indicate what kind exactly.

Its a typical methodology employed by those that extract bits and pieces of facts (the use of half-truths) and then proclaim that the entire previous theory is wrong.

What I read is that certain kinds of hydrocarbons have been (possibly) identified as being abiotic in nature.that's a far cry from the idea that all are such and we don't need to worry about our oil supply. Big difference, I'd say.

But lets take it as fact, can they say for certain that the rate of formation is faster than our current or projected, rate of depletion? Something that seems to have been completely overlooked, Hmmmm?? Questionable "science" at its best.

I for one also question some of what I read in that World Net Daily (in so far as their science news articles are concerned) they seem to like to use half-truths quite a bit.

I for one, ain't going out and buying a Hummer based on that report, that's fer darn sure!

RM

The_Veg
08-03-2008, 04:10 PM
I for one, ain't going out and buying a Hummer based on that report, that's fer darn sure!

Even if oil were so limitless that fuel was free, I still wouldn't buy a Hummer because I got to drive one a few years ago and it sucked in so many ways.

rocketman
08-03-2008, 04:31 PM
Even if oil were so limitless that fuel was free, I still wouldn't buy a Hummer because I got to drive one a few years ago and it sucked in so many ways.

What??? But but but.... its a status symbol, therefore it has to be great!!!

In looking back at the original post, I think the line below is what really turned me off, if the article and the presentation were a serious effort to inform and provide us with hard scientific data, then its inclusion seems to call that supposition (that it was posted to simply inform us of the real truth) into serious question

Each of us in our own small way can now burn as much petroleum product as we can afford to put in our cars and boats, safe in the knowledge that (a) oil is never going to run out and (b) all the extra carbon dioxide we produce will not cause global warming, but will help plants, and hence food, to grow faster, thus helping to feed the billions!

yeah, right!

Ha Ha!

RM

knary
08-04-2008, 12:17 AM
:ha

I've got a bridge for you...

rocketman
08-04-2008, 06:48 AM
:ha

I've got a bridge for you...


thanks, but no, I hear they are very expensive to maintain...esp. the ones made by BMW....

RM

knary
08-04-2008, 10:50 AM
thanks, but no, I hear they are very expensive to maintain...esp. the ones made by BMW....

RM

Really, the final drive problem isn't that big of a deal, I promise.

http://egretsnest.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/image.jpg

SIBUD
08-04-2008, 01:31 PM
I can assure you that Pink Floyd and Jethro Tull are real!:stick :D

Otherwise, I totally agree with your assessment.
Any pictures of your supposed Pink Floyd or Jethro Tull?

:whistle

GrafikFeat
08-04-2008, 03:16 PM
I for one, ain't going out and buying a Hummer based on that report, that's fer darn sure!

RM

Ha! True...
I wouldn't buy one if gas were free.
Friggin' butt ugly. AKA Fugly! :whistle

lamble
08-04-2008, 03:46 PM
I saw a hummer yesterday. I thought they were supposed to be a utilitarian work horse go anywhere machine...an expression of freedom. This had the biggest chrome wheels I've ever seen and the thinnest rims. What a complete tart's car!

I used one in Moab for driving over the splines and other near vertical inclines. It worked there, better than I could have imagined. It was fit for purpose. But as a street car with all these fancy trims...nah, it just looked like a bulldog in a tu tu.

GrafikFeat
08-04-2008, 05:57 PM
I saw a hummer yesterday. I thought they were supposed to be a utilitarian work horse go anywhere machine...an expression of freedom. This had the biggest chrome wheels I've ever seen and the thinnest rims. What a complete tart's car!

Uh Huh...

Pat Carol
08-04-2008, 07:11 PM
I am far from being any type of scietific guru. Has anyone out there heard about the changing of the earth's axis? About a year ago, I heard of the earth axis changing positions. The North Pole would go south and the South Pole would go north. It was quite interesting. Have you noticed over the past few years, the southern states are seeing more snow?
Now here is another wrench in the gear box. How about the hype of December 21st, 2012? :confused:

Take Care & Ride Safe
Pat Carol

knary
08-04-2008, 07:44 PM
How about the hype of December 21st, 2012? :confused:

It's right up there with the Easter Bunny and eating magnets to cure the common cold.

glennhendricks
08-04-2008, 09:34 PM
Um.......chocolate bunny.....

As for the axis, the earth 'wobbles' a bit and the magnetic poles have swapped in the past and will do so again. No biggie.

Mika
08-04-2008, 09:38 PM
NASA on magnetic pole changes (http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2003/29dec_magneticfield.htm)

GrafikFeat
08-04-2008, 09:47 PM
NASA on magnetic pole changes (http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2003/29dec_magneticfield.htm)

Cool. Learnt somethin' today... :brad

Pat Carol
08-05-2008, 01:19 AM
It's right up there with the Easter Bunny and eating magnets to cure the common cold.


There's no Easter Bunny? I've been eating magnets for nothing? What about Mr. Ed? Did he really talk?

PC:scratch :dunno :confused:

Mika
08-05-2008, 07:24 AM
There's no Easter Bunny? I've been eating magnets for nothing? What about Mr. Ed? Did he really talk?

PC:scratch :dunno :confused:

Sorry about the easter bunny. At least you helped the economy of magnet producing states.

Yes Mr. Ed did speak and in fact did the voice over for Wilbur's wife who was a mute.
:whistle

rocketman
08-05-2008, 08:28 AM
Sorry about the easter bunny. At least you helped the economy of magnet producing states.

Yes Mr. Ed did speak and in fact did the voice over for Wilbur's wife who was a mute.
:whistle

Man, where have you been? that's OLD news! :laugh

RM