Starting Problem?

[jimdishman]

After filling up in gas station yesterday could not start my 95 R100M(25k on the clock). Push started to get home. Battery is new (one month old). Press starter button and get rapid loud repeated clicking sound. Sounds like a starter relay issue to me.

Can anyone confirm that relay is the problem-Is there a test to see if relay is Ok? Relay is a $110 item so do not want to purchase unless sure that its the problem.

I have not changed out a starter/relay before, any advice/tips would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance

[Slablog]

Jim,
Sounds like the battery is just weak. When installed it may have not gotten a good enough connection to charge it up good. Or the alternator may NOT be charging it. Check battery connections and charge the battery up good first. That would be the first thing I'd try. Often the last thing worked on is where the problem lies...in some related way.

[20774]

Remove the tank and repeat the attempt to start...locate the source of the clicking noise. That will tell you if it's the relay or something up near the starter.

It's likely that corrosion has set up on the connectors to the relay. Remove the tank and locate the relay. Pull it out of the socket and reinsert...repeat several times. You could also try some terminal cleaner sprays...RatShack has some.

Links to the airheads.org site regarding a discussion about relays has been posted in the past week or so. Read about relays and possible substitutes...

[jimdishman]

Kurt/Phil:

Thanks for the info. Found some good tech articles in airheads/org. Will begin checking out tonight after supper.

[535is]

I'm going with Boxer, here. That sounds like a battery strong enough to trip the relay, but not enough to turn the starter motor. BT, DT more times than I care to remember. :bluduh

[jimdishman]

Looks like maybe the new battery (one month)has a problem (its a sealed BMW battery purchased at the dealer?) or possibly the bike alt/charging system.

Will start with easiest - I put the charger on the battery at lunch time. See if it starts tonight after a full charge.

[20774]

When you go to start again, put your digital voltmeter across the battery terminals. Watch the voltage when you hit the start button. If the battery is the weak link, you'll see the voltage plummet. Anything below 10v is probably not good. If the battery voltage hardly blips, then that means something (eg, the starter relay) is not fully latching.

[James.A]

O.K., so you put the new battery in a month ago and now the bike won't start? First off, your'e going to need a volt,ohm,amp meter to get to the bottom of this. If you don't have one, get one, I own and use both analog and digital meters.

Now, if you have put your charger on the battery since lunch time, it should read somewhere over 13 volts. (it's only a month old and only been through one deep cycle) Personally. I prefer analog meters with a sweep hand for most tests except where precise readings are important. Like Kurt says, when you hit the starter button the reading should not go lower that 10v. My prediction is that your bike will roll and start just fine with the battery re-charged. If this occurs, you must now figure out why your NEW battery went weak.

How many miles/trips have you run or taken in the month since the new battery was installed? As an example, I run my bike(s) 60 miles a day every day during the week. A weak or failed charging system would reveal itself in abour 2 days at that rate of use.

To test for a direct draw, connect your test meter (set on amps) between the negative cable end and the battery negative post with the main switch off. Ideally this would read zero but anything less than 1 amp is O.K. A less than 1 amp draw might be attributable to a device like a clock or something else that runs independent of the main switch.

Other than this, a failed diode board shows as a slow death for the battery where the generator (red) light gets brighter as the battery slowly discharges from being subjected to alternating current which it can not use.

An alterantor problem with the rotor or stator or brushes can manifest as a faint glow which might not be obvious in the daylight.

A failed voltage regulator that does not allow charging is typically a bright red generator light.

A failed voltage regulator that does not regulate will cook a battery and shows itself by burning up headlight bulbs and evaprating the electrolite in a conventional battery at the cells nearest the positive and negative posts.

[jimdishman]

Tried 2 different bmw chargers on this one month old battery. Both times stays on the red light all the time (not even a blinking green) no matter how long its hooked up.

Showed about 11.5 volts after disconnecting the charger. Hit starter button with volt meter attached drops immediately to about 8 volts. But the starter engaged and started the bike. The charger must have added enough juice to engage.

See pic of the new battery attached. its a Westco M-free battery made for the R100M . Bought new at BMW of grand rapids on 4/19. Was working fine up until last Sunday. Anyone else had a problem with the Westco battery?

Probably means a trip back to the dealer for a replacement?

[skiteach]

It's very possible that the battery is defective. Battery should be around 12.5v and not drop below 10v, with 11.5v dropping to 8 may be normal. You may want to take bike and battery to dealer. Or, if there's an auto parts dealer closer, they may be very useful in testing the battery for you. With engine running and spinning@2000 rpm, you should see 14.5-12.? v across the battery terminals

[jimdishman]

Started up bike and ran at 2000 rpm - reading about 11.43 to 11.46v. Went for a ride at 50mph for 1/2 hr. and took another reading upon return - reading at 2000rpm was the same 11.44 - 11.47 range.

Took battery out and hooked back up to bmw charger - will leave hooked up overnight and see if it takes a full charge. (This afternoon was charging for 5 hours and red light never went out on charger-no blinking green light either?) But maybe it needs more time on charger.

Since purchasing this battery in april, have been riding bike to work 10-12 miles per day avg 3 days per week and riding avg 75 miles on weekends. Last Sunday at gas station was first indication of a problem.

[skiteach]

Voltage readings are too low-'fraid it's not battery! Is the charge light on? It could be anything, from corroded/broken wires to diode board, voltage reg or stator. Now the fun begins! Follow one of the test procedures, or find a Clymer's manual, that have been mentioned and enjoy the hunt!

[James.A]

Y'know skiteach, I was gonna jump on that this morning but I decided to leave to someone else. What we don't know is if Jim is relying on voltmeter that came with the instrument set on the bike. Everyone knows that OEM instruments are notoriously in-accurate. Let's face it, Bosch electrics are only slightly better than British. However, there is not much mystery or magic involved in airhead charging. An airhead bike's charging system should show around 13.25V at the battery at 3000 RPM. anything less is in-adequate.

[mrocket49]

I don't mean to barge in hear but I remember reading that the BMW "chargers" are just battery maintainers and won't charge up a low battery. I have a BMW charger as well as a couple Battery Tenders (which I think is the same) and have noticed that they won't charge up my lawn tractor battery after a long winter, I'll have to put on the 2 amp charger to do that. Just my 2 cents.

[skiteach]

Woodnsteel, Couldn't resist jumping in. I know how hard or easy it can be. Spent 30 years working in automotive repair and got caught last fall on my son's (Ford Expl) alternator. His went bad and the replacement had a defective voltage regulator. Got caught looking at everything but the "obvious", at least I figured it out before the battery cooked. Kept trying to blame the computer!
Testing should always be done with a multimeter not vehicle instruments. If you're unsure of an issue or fix, find someone that can guide you- this forum is an awsome resource, it's probably happened to someone else.
Mrocket, You're correct that a maintainer won't fully charge, at least most of them. A charger is a different animal. My 2amp charger will eventually cook a battery-I think it has points in it!(at least it's old enough to), it's got a input wire and output wires, no switches or knobs.

[jimdishman]

Thanks everyone for the input. Work isn't leaving me much time this week to work on this problem. Here is the latest: Charged battery for 12 hours (still no green light on the charger indicating full charge). The reading from my Sears digital multimeter is 12.54v after the charge. Tonight reinstalled battery and the battery starts the bike fine, runs fine, lights work normal. However, noticed no generator light after ignition turned on (before I hit the starter button). Checked generator light bulb (burned out bulb is not the issue). So battery and no gen light appear be symptoms of some other electrical issue? Looks like its on to the Clymer manual (chapter 8) & Haynes (chapter 10) for a refresher and begin the electrical test procedures when I get time. The R65 is performing well as my backup commuter bike until the Mystic is fixed.

[AnnapolisAirhead]

Not sure this comment fits directly into this thread, but thought I'd pass along the warning helpful souls told me about.

Checking the diode board (or anything under the front cover), I've been warned a zillion times to disconnect the battery BEFORE removing the cover. The Diode board is ultra close to the top of the cover and could short easily. So even if you are going to use a meter on things in there, disconnect, remover cover, then reconnect battery. Obviously, disconnect battery again to put the cover back on...yada yada...but you knew that. ;-)

[jimdishman]

Finally, spent some time narrowing down the electrical issue and seemed to be an alternator problem? But I'm no expert on airhead electrics so called service department at BMW of Grand Rapids and they indicated they send them out to a place that rebuilds them - cost seemed reasonable so I dropped it off for repair. They confirmed alternator rotor was bad. The 95 R100M has 25k on the clock. Is that normal for a rotor to go bad after 25k?

[mrocket49]

Mine went bad after 35k. and I was 1200 miles from home. I figured that was a good time to switch to the Omega 400 watt system.

[The_Veg]

My '95 R had charging failures the never lit the lamp. I wound up getting the Omega so I never figured out what the problem was.

Then the Omega had a few problems. It had a diode board overheat enough to melt the solder joints, allowing components to disconnect...destroyed a couple of regulators without warning, but then I could never find the cause...long story short, turned out to be a rotor that only shorted while spinning. Then later the B+ wire that came with the kit burned itself up due to loose crimps.

Sure wish I could have traded all the charging problems the bike had for one as simple as Jim's.