R1100RS Dead on the Highway!

[JimVonBaden1]

I was returning from a tech day in Chambersburg, PA last night around 10 when my bike just died. I was doing 70mph in a light rain and the engine just died. No kicking or bucking. It was like I shut off the key. :cry:

I managed to coast off the freeway and push the bike half a mile to a gas station. I could not get it to start. I pulled the fuel injector fuel lines and both shot out fuel with the key on. It turned over fine. I let it sit about half an hour and it would start for 2-3 seconds and die.

I got a hotel room around 1 and slept till 7, $120. :cry:

I went back to the bike and it started. I was elated. I was putting on my helmet when it died again. After that I couldn't get it to run longer than 5 seconds.

I had it towed home, $240 :cry:, and I am going to fix it myself.

I suspect it is the Hall Sensor, as it warms up it dies, which is common, I hear for the Hall Sensor. I am going to buy the part, ($250?) but I would like some other opinions. :confused:

Thanks, and thanks to Ted and Tim for letting me wake them up with my tale of wo! :clap:

Jim :cool:

[LICK MY BRICK]

Maybe it's the side stand cut off switch that is going bad:dunno

[JimVonBaden1]

Originally posted by LICK MY BRICK
Maybe it's the side stand cut off switch that is going bad:dunno

I thought of that, but the bike wouldn't even turn over if that was the case.

Thanks for the thought!

Jim :brow

[kbasa]

Yep. Probably the Hall Effect sensor. They usually croak when they get wet. Let it dry out and see if it starts.

Sometimes, they fail under heat too. To test that, test it with a hair dryer. Point the hair dryer at the sensor and get the sensor warm. If the bike dies, switch the hair dryer over so it blows cool air and then cool the sensor. See if the bike will restart.

[JimVonBaden1]

Originally posted by KBasa
Yep. Probably the Hall Effect sensor. They usually croak when they get wet. Let it dry out and see if it starts.

Sometimes, they fail under heat too. To test that, test it with a hair dryer. Point the hair dryer at the sensor and get the sensor warm. If the bike dies, switch the hair dryer over so it blows cool air and then cool the sensor. See if the bike will restart.

It started when I went out this morning and ran about 25 seconds, then died again. After that it would only run 2-5 seconds before dying. I smelled some electrical type heat smell near the front of the engine after it ran for 25 seconds and died.

It seems that the electronics get hot and it dies, then it takes a long time to cool off. It will start for shorter and shorter times until it finally wont start at all.

Jim:brow

[kbasa]

Without testing it, I'm going to bet you've got a bad HES.

[JimVonBaden1]

Originally posted by KBasa
Without testing it, I'm going to bet you've got a bad HES.

How do I test it?

Jim :brow

[kbasa]

This is written for a Kbike, but an HES is an HES.

http://www.ibmwr.org/ktech/intermittent-cutout.shtml

dave

[Ozonkiller]

I could not find any values for the hall effect sensor, but Dave's response is a fairly valid one. The first thing that I'd do is verify that it is the spark that is failing. If you've got a timing light, hook it up and start the bike. When cold, as you've stated, it should run long enough for you to get a good strobe out of the light. When the spark fails, so should the light. This is just in case it's the injectors that are failing to fire. You can double check by doing the old laying a spark plug on the cylinder and seeing if you have spark.
Another suggestion to testing the HEF is to ohm it when it's cold, before you try to start it. Record the readings, then get it to totally fail again and re-meter it. The values should be dramatically different if this is the problem.
What year is your RS? If push comes to shove, I'll access mine and meter it for comparison. Just give me a shout.

Tom
Ozonkiller@msn.com

[JimVonBaden1]

Originally posted by Ozonkiller
I could not find any values for the hall effect sensor, but Dave's response is a fairly valid one. The first thing that I'd do is verify that it is the spark that is failing. If you've got a timing light, hook it up and start the bike. When cold, as you've stated, it should run long enough for you to get a good strobe out of the light. When the spark fails, so should the light. This is just in case it's the injectors that are failing to fire. You can double check by doing the old laying a spark plug on the cylinder and seeing if you have spark.
Another suggestion to testing the HEF is to ohm it when it's cold, before you try to start it. Record the readings, then get it to totally fail again and re-meter it. The values should be dramatically different if this is the problem.
What year is your RS? If push comes to shove, I'll access mine and meter it for comparison. Just give me a shout.

Tom
Ozonkiller@msn.com

Mine is a 94.

I've checked the plugs for spark. it's strong running on one cylinder, but after it dies it's very weak when I crank it over. After it died I pulled the plugs and they were wet with gas as well.

I also pulled out an injector and watched it spray both during running and cranking after it dies. Same spray either way.

Question, does the Hall Effect Sensor use one sensor for the fuel injection and one for the ignition? Or do they both work together? If it is the former, then the HAL could still be the problem.

Thanks,

Jim:brow

[Jody746]

Jim, My RT failed and let me down twice in the rain. Your Hall Sensor is bad. The wires that rest next to the hot engine tend to deteriate over time. The wires inside of the insulated outside wire have gone bad. The smell was probably those wires touching and melting. When I took mine off and looked inside of the insulated wire, they started to crumble. At first, I pulled the front cover off and tugged on the wire that goes to the Hall Sensor and it started. While it was running I pulled on the wire again and it went dead again instantly. I pulled again and it started again. While running . I sprayed a mist of water on it and instantly goes dead again. Save yourself the headAche. Replace your sensor. You can do the work yourself , its not that bad. Good Luck.

[JimVonBaden1]

Originally posted by Jody Coleman
Jim, My RT failed and let me down twice in the rain. Your Hall Sensor is bad. The wires that rest next to the hot engine tend to deteriate over time. The wires inside of the insulated outside wire have gone bad. The smell was probably those wires touching and melting. When I took mine off and looked inside of the insulated wire, they started to crumble. At first, I pulled the front cover off and tugged on the wire that goes to the Hall Sensor and it started. While it was running I pulled on the wire again and it went dead again instantly. I pulled again and it started again. While running . I sprayed a mist of water on it and instantly goes dead again. Save yourself the headAche. Replace your sensor. You can do the work yourself , its not that bad. Good Luck.

Thanks for the input Jody,

I have found a used HALL sensor and will have it in a couple days. I'm pretty sure that it is the problem, and for $45 it will make a nice spare if it isn't.

Jim:brow

[MarkF]

Originally posted by JimVonBaden
Thanks for the input Jody,

I have found a used HALL sensor and will have it in a couple days. I'm pretty sure that it is the problem, and for $45 it will make a nice spare if it isn't.

Jim:brow

How much is a new one? If it is a common failure item do you really want a used one?

MarkF

[Jody746]

Jim, I don't blame you for trying to save the extra money, But that used one could have seen its share of heat also. This could happen all over again if those insulated wires are brittle and then disturbed and moved while putting it on. When I inspected those little wires ,inside of the big black wire, the insulation just crumbed , exposing naked wires to touch each other. I hated to spend that money for that thing , but I did'nt want to take the chance. Good Luck to Ya..

[JimVonBaden1]

Originally posted by MarkF
How much is a new one? If it is a common failure item do you really want a used one?

MarkF

OK, Now for a little more information.

I started the bike after sitting for 24 hours. it ran for 85 seconds and died completely and instantly. I immediately tried to restart it, no go. I sprayed freon on the Hall Sensor as best I could, its hard to get to directly, and it didn't seem to have any effect, but I would call that inconclusive because I can't be sure I got it.

I checked the wires to the Hall sensor and they are in good shape. I checked the coil and wires and they looked good too. I need the ohm specs again on the wires and the coil.

I first pulled off both injector hoses and turned the key, the fuel flowed for 5 seconds and cut off, I could hear the pump cut off. I did this several times and drained 1/2 a gallon of fuel this way.

I drained all 5 gallons of gas (now what to do with it since I live in an apartment) there was no water in it, and it was not diesel fuel. I pulled the tank, then the pump and filter, and the filter was new and flowed very nicely. The pump flows well also. The screen looked like new, and there was no debris in the tank.

I have a used Hal sensor coming, I know, but I didn't want to miss the chance for a deal, and yes I know its better to get new but I didn't want to waste $300 if that wasn't it.

Ideas? Suggestions on what to check next?

Jim:brow

[Big Blue]

Jim-
I went through the hall sensor drill about a month ago.
It is a servicable part, the sensors can be replaced.

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38071

http://www.ebbo.org/

I would recomend servicing the old since you are putting a used one on.

[JimVonBaden1]

Originally posted by Big Blue
Jim-
I went through the hall sensor drill about a month ago.
It is a servicable part, the sensors can be replaced.

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38071

http://www.ebbo.org/

I would recomend servicing the old since you are putting a used one on.

Great advice! I didn't want to wait for the parts and take the necessary time to do it, but it would be a great backup if the used one fails.

I also have a friend, yes it's true, who is thinking about purchasing the parts and making a bunch of rebuilts for sale. Less than half and with new sensors.

Jim :brow

[Fang]

I'll tell ya one thing, Jim; after listening to your thorough and patient mechanical "trek" through the fuel delivery and electrical systems of your bike, including draining the fuel, etc., I'm impressed! Your worst enemy on earth cannot - indeed, dare not - say about you that you're afraid of hard work! If it were me, I'd be afraid of destroying a gasket or seal or something, and finding myself stranded while surrounded by parts, the function of which I only dimly remembered!

Pls do keep us posted on what was involved in repairing the Hall Effect Sensor; if the wires were OK on your present one, as you seemed to indicate that they are, then I wonder what the problem could be?

Am I gonna have this problem with my new, 2005 R1200CLC? It occurs to me that you could have been very seriously killed, having to endure engine failure at 70 MPH out in the middle of nowhere. I don't want to pay large sums of money to buy a bike that is even marginally likely to do that to me! Shudder...... And I don't want the damn thing to shudder, either!

Am I being unreasonable here? Pls advise.....:confused: :brow

[Big Blue]

It would be nice to know when others experienced problems. That way ignition sensor service could be worked in to the maintenance schedule. I don’t so much mind the $25 for 2 new sensors & the 2-3 hrs to service the part. It’s the being left on the side of the road & the danger you are in when your motor quits at 70 MPH that bothers me. Also, you sure incur a lot of incidental cost when you get left stranded, hotel, rental car, tow, missed work to name a few.

Mine went at 9 years/43K miles

[JimVonBaden1]

Originally posted by Big Blue
It would be nice to know when others experienced problems. That way ignition sensor service could be worked in to the maintenance schedule. I don’t so much mind the $25 for 2 new sensors & the 2-3 hrs to service the part. It’s the being left on the side of the road & the danger you are in when your motor quits at 70 MPH that bothers me. Also, you sure incur a lot of incidental cost when you get left stranded, hotel, rental car, tow, missed work to name a few.

Mine went at 9 years/43K miles

I agree. So far I am out $450 for the tow, hotel, and parts. I hope it doesn't cost more.

But, to be perfectly honest, it's not the costs that bug me, it's the PITA of being stranded 70 mils from home with a bike that needs a few dollars worth of hard to obtain parts.

I will definitely be carrying a spare in the future, as well as the tools to replace it, and towing insurance.

My bike had 49K on it when this happened.

I hope to have the parts delivered tonight and see if it fixes it. I'll post the results here later.

Thanks everyone for your help, support and encouragement!

Jim:brow

[JimVonBaden1]

ITS DONE!!!!!

Looks like it was the coil afterall. I replaced it first, and it has been working. I then changed the Hall Sensor just because I had one.

The coil has a faint burned electronics smell to it and a bulge on the top with a material that looks like melted plastic coming out of the buldge.

I drove it for 10 min, and idled it for ten minutes and it didn't stumble once like it had been before it died.

Looks like I fixed two problems at once.

Now I need to reset the timing on it, and resync the TBs.

I'll save that for the tech day on Saturday.

Thanks for all your help!

Jim:brow

[Big Blue]

Jim-
Good Work!
Glad to hear your on the road again.

[JimVonBaden1]

Thanks to EVERYONE who gave me sound advice on how to troubleshoot my problems I saved a bundle over what I would likely have paid the dealer. Certainly the parts alone were worth the effort.

I did really learn a lot about my bike, and how it works.

I learned that it's a lot easier than it looks.

I learned NOT to drop the tank washer behind the battery box.

I learned that tightening the alternator belt is harder than it looks.

I learned that taking off the tank is no big deal-I really hated the idea of having to do this!

Mostly I learned what a great group of people are on this board and others, and that BMW riders are the most helpful and friendly group around!

Special thanks to Mike for removing and rushing the parts to me so fast.

Jim :brow

[kbasa]

:thumb

Jeez, I love the internet.

[JimVonBaden1]

Originally posted by KBasa
:thumb

Jeez, I love the internet.

Here Here!

How did we ever get by without it? :bliss

Jim :brow

[RichL025]

What is a "Hall Effect Sensor"?

I searched the forum, and found other reports on its failure, but couldn't find any description of what it did...

[kbasa]

It reads crank position via a magnetic sensor and reports back to the FI system and the ignition system so they know when to do their jobs.

[RichL025]

Aha! Exactly the answer I was looking for, thank you!

[bmwmick]

Originally posted by JimVonBaden
ITS DONE!!!!!

Looks like it was the coil afterall. I replaced it first, and it has been working. I then changed the Hall Sensor just because I had one.

The coil has a faint burned electronics smell to it and a bulge on the top with a material that looks like melted plastic coming out of the buldge.


So Jim,
Did you measure the 'dead' coil? Primary should read 0.5 Ohms and the Secondary whould be either 7.5K Ohms or 13K Ohms depending on which manual you believe. ;)

Mick

[JimVonBaden1]

Originally posted by bmwmick
So Jim,
Did you measure the 'dead' coil? Primary should read 0.5 Ohms and the Secondary whould be either 7.5K Ohms or 13K Ohms depending on which manual you believe. ;)

Mick

I did measure it. The old coil read .5 ohms and the new (RT) coil read 13K ohms.

The old coil will read right until it get's hot.

So, in a way, they are both right!:D

Jim:brow

[bmwmick]

Great!
Thanks Jim. I was just concerned that the 13K was in error but it looks like it IS correct for the early R1100's. I would expect the secondary of the 'dead' coil to be somewhat lower than the 13K but that "as you mentioned" may only show up with voltage applied to the Primary and in the failing condition

Mick

[JimVonBaden1]

Not a problem.

During a Tech Day today in the DC area I had the good fortune to have a very knowledgeable BMW guy help me sort out the remaining problems with my bike.

These included a medium surge off idle, very low idle (unadjustable with the brass screws), TB sync that couldn't be adjusted and excessive vibration.

Turned out the TB butterfly plates were not adjusted correctly and were not opening in unison, and causing the TB sync to be way off. We adjusted them by turning the bolt on the bottom of the TB.

NOTE: NEVER Do this unless you know exactly what you are doing! It WILL mess up your TB adjustments, and you may have to take it to a dealer to get set correctly!

Anyhow, after that we did a Zero-Zero adjustment on my TB position Sensor, and another carb sync, the two brass screws are no almost exactly the same number of turns out, then finished up with a throttle cable sync.

When we were done, it ran like never before! Nearly as smooth as my old K75S, and a lot more power.

It now will also come off idle smoothly, and crawl along in traffic at 2K rpm without detonation or bogging. AND, the stumble I had during idle is gone!:clap :clap

Anton is a genius!

Thanks for all the help, all of you!

Jim:brow

[username]

this thread is an excellent example of how amazingly wonderful

- bmw riders are
- the online community is
- the real world community is

jim your tenacity rocks.

[JimVonBaden1]

Originally posted by username
this thread is an excellent example of how amazingly wonderful

- bmw riders are
- the online community is
- the real world community is

jim your tenacity rocks.

Thank you for the compliment!

But in reality, it is this DB and others like it in the BMW community that rocks!

Jim:brow

[Fang]

TO: JimVonBaden

Pls advise procedure for (1) learning of and (2) signing up for the kinds of "Tech Days" you described in your interesting series of posts. Costs? Fees? Required tools?

TIA

[JimVonBaden1]

Originally posted by Fang
TO: JimVonBaden

Pls advise procedure for (1) learning of and (2) signing up for the kinds of "Tech Days" you described in your interesting series of posts. Costs? Fees? Required tools?

TIA

Fang,

This particular Tech Day was a local one from the BMWBMW club in the Washington DC area so it wasn't advertised in this forum. Next time it will be.

The Tech Day idea was from another DB WWW.BMWST.com. It is mainly people in the area getting together at a volunteer's home and helping each other work on their bikes. Often, like on this one, we will have a guest specialist (the guy who is the most knowledgable) help us new guys to learn how to do specific repairs and maintenance on our bikes.

There is no fee, it is kept informal. You supply your own supplies, oil, filters, tools etc. To sign up, just join the BMWBMW.org web DB and watch for the next one. The BMWST DB also host Tech Days around the country, or even better, YOU arrange and one from this DB yourself.

Jim:brow