The Berg video

[basketcase]

No, this is not a link to it. But I am curious to know what people are thinking about viewing it.

[gambrinus]

I did hear the audio and that alone was enough to nearly turn my stomach. People need to be made aware of the brutality of the creatures (I refuse to refer to them as "people") that we are dealing with there. A great line on "The West Wing" last night in reference to terrorists..

"Kill them, kill them all.. Kill the people who did it, kill the people who sent them to do it, and then kill everyone running around that is happy about it"

I think Black Jack Pershing was the last American who knew how to deal with Muslim extremists....


RW

[ScottM]

Nope, don't want to see it! and I wish the Lame Stream media would quit with the other pictures all ready. I have a son just back from Iraq (82nd Airborne) and he is looking at going back within the year.

We should have turned it into a glass parking lot the first time. I was there then (Air Force special Ops).

Unfortunately, this whole thing is a lose-lose for the USA.

[1flyer]

Let's compare pictures. How about we take the latest "horrible" pictures from the prison and put them up side by side with some pictures of the people jumping out of the windows of the WTC. Maybe get a couple of clips of the planes hitting the buildings and the smoking hole in the PA field to go with them. Now, lets get a few frames from the Berg video and put them there also. Now then, let's ask all the politicians trying to make "points" and maybe even some of the media to judge which pictures are more offensive. Personally, I think the pictures of death and destruction by their hands are more telling than a "dog and pony show" with a couple of Army guards. And we have our own fools in this country that are still wanting Rumsfelds head????

[basketcase]

1Flyer, I agree with you about the hypocrisy of the dog and pony show.

Meanwhile, I need to confess that I am disqualified from voting on the poll because I have already viewed the video. I have several thoughts on that subject.

First, it is not something a kid needs to view, and it is not for those of a weak constitution. So for anyone who hunts up or runs across a link to the event, you better be sure you want to confront the reality of it before you go "click." (I did not hunt up the link, but came across it on another board where I read regularly. After a day of mulling it, I decided to go ahead and see for myself.)

Next, all violence is alarming to some degree. But the graphic, uncensored savagery of a such a horrific murder is chilling. It was not quick like a firing squad. It was not even a mercifully quick beheading such as dosed out by the Japanese in WWII. Rather, it was a literal throat slitting, followed by sawing off the head of the victim, and finally waving it in front of the camera.

And such is the mindset of those we face in this war. We need to sit up and take note.

Rick (all tongue in cheek disclaimers hereby waived for this subject) in AL

[MarkF]

Everyone who can stomach it should see the video, hear the audio or see a few pics. It puts all this nonsense about "prisoner mistreatment" into perspective. These terrorists did this before, to Daniel Pearl, and he was just a journalist. Of course Pearl was a Jew and Berg had a "jewish sounding" name and a Israel stamp on his passport. How's that for motive? Nevermind that both were US citizens. If the main stream media could stop talking about the Lynndie England sex tapes long enough they would link the Berg killing with Pearl's and the other acts of this madman. Then we would have something worth getting pissed off about! The CIA should torture anyone who can lead us to those responsible for these terrorist acts against America and Americans so we can KILL them!

MarkF

[username]

violence against humans bugs me in general.

i dont think the guys who did that are subhuman or anything. theyre mad as hell, and i think mad humans do awful things to other humans. sadly, that seems to be pretty normal throughout our history - we kill and we kill a lot and we kill very effectively. and for me to feel superior because my country drops remote-controlled bombs would be absurd. people still lose their heads, it doesnt matter if you do it by hand or from an airplane, it's wrong. and i don't believe in 'wronger.' so im not taking any high ground on this one, to me it's just one more in a long string of crimes by mankind against mankind. this time the other guys did it. i'd like to know when it ends. (i think it ends when there is only one person left on earth, and that's disturbing.)

the whole iraq thing is a collosal mess though. it will be interesting to see how it is viewed historically. i find it ironic that there werent al quaeda dudes in iraq before the war, and now theyre chopping the heads off civilians one year after the mission was "accomplished."

i think we as a country have lost our focus. iraq was not an issue with the war on terror, that was a huge lie. these guys doing the head chopping are al quaeda right? thats who we're supposed to be catching! so while we've had 150,000 troops, countless intelligence resources, and a hundred billion dollars WASTED on the war in iraq, we could have turned all of those resources towards the real threat, which was not saddam hussein, but al quaeda. and now, al quaeda is IN IRAQ (they werent before) RIGHT UNDER OUR NOSES and chopping off the heads of OUR civilians. that's wrong on so many levels it makes me swoon.

i'd like to see our policy and our military properly brought to bear on the real issues that threaten safety in the world.

[kbasa]

Interrogation experts say that torture does not produce reliable or accurate information.

And yeah, the whole thing is a mess. While we've been playing grabass in Iraq, al-Qaeda has had a chance to regroup and reform. We would have done better, IMHO, to put 150K troops in the Afgahn/Paki mountains and roust those AQ mofos out.

In the meanwhile, but introducing a level of anarchy to Iraq, we've basically built a haven for AQ.

Go figure. It's like Pottery Barn. You break it, you buy it.

We own Iraq now.

[MarkF]

Originally posted by username

i think we as a country have lost our focus. iraq was not an issue with the war on terror, that was a huge lie. these guys doing the head chopping are al quaeda right? thats who we're supposed to be catching! so while we've had 150,000 troops, countless intelligence resources, and a hundred billion dollars WASTED on the war in iraq, we could have turned all of those resources towards the real threat, which was not saddam hussein, but al quaeda. and now, al quaeda is IN IRAQ (they werent before) RIGHT UNDER OUR NOSES and chopping off the heads of OUR civilians. that's wrong on so many levels it makes me swoon.


And how does anyone know that: 1) The war in Iraq has in anyway diverted need resources from the anti-terror war 2) They weren't in Iraq before the invasion 3) Those running the wars have lost their focus. All we know is how the media portays it!

MarkF

[BradfordBenn]

Originally posted by KBasa
Go figure. It's like Pottery Barn. You break it, you buy it.


Ah ha:idea another Boondocks fan.

Either way, while I might not support the policy I always will support the people who are left to carry it out --- although just following orders is a cop out.

[username]

Originally posted by MarkF
And how does anyone know that: 1) The war in Iraq has in anyway diverted need resources from the anti-terror war 2) They weren't in Iraq before the invasion 3) Those running the wars have lost their focus. All we know is how the media portays it!

MarkF

most of what i know is what i read in a fairly wide range of media, true. i get no tv news. i also talk to some folks that have people on the ground in iraq, and are face to face with the mess. and i use my common sense to deduce that when special forces guys were pulled out of afghanistan, before their mission was accomplished, and sent to iraq, then resources were diverted.

if you read a range of publications and listen to news, both foreign and domestic, it is almost impossible for a thinking man to fail to come to the conclusion that the war on terror has been deprioritized and the iraq fiasco is consuming our government and collective consciousness. if youre just watching fox news, and not getting anything else pumped into your head, then it's harder to do. NPR, BBC's the world, WSJ, NYT, the new republic, the economist, newsweek, time, and cnn have all had both news and analysis that point to this.

i didnt care too much for bill clinton, but man oh man, i miss the days of hummers in the oval office when compared to hummers in iraq. if things get any crappier, im going to long for the days of nixon or carter! :D

[MarkF]

Originally posted by username
it is almost impossible for a thinking man to fail to come to the conclusion that the war on terror has been deprioritized and the iraq fiasco is consuming our government and collective consciousness.

Kudos for the typical "if you don't agree with me you must be an idiot" rebuttal. An excellent way to end any disagreement.

While I have nobody on the ground in Iraq I don't undestand how a country that once fought a war in Europe and a war in the Pacific cannot occupy Iraq and fight terrorism here and abroad at the same time.

MarkF

[username]

mark, i merely pointed out where i got my information. if you have absorbed the same information, and draw a different conclusion, then we have something interesting to talk about. if you havent, well then, we dont. that's ok with me, either way. and regardless of your source of information, your decision making process, and your politics, i know you are a good guy because you ride a bmw. and that's why we're here. :)

you havent refuted my comment regarding the removal of special forces from afghanistan and sending them to iraq, so i will assume you accept it.

as for your reference to wwII, it was a different war fought with a different military. your thought process is faulty, because you assume that because we *have* successfully won a massive two-front war, that there is nothing to stop us from winning them over and over again. that isnt how things work. the fact is that they are totally different situations and different kinds of wars, in different times in history.

every war is different, every enemy is different, every situation perilous in it's own way. they have to be approached as such. we thought about vietnam like we thought about korea and wwii, and we screwed that up. "how could we lose in vietnam? we won in wwii! theyre just a bunch of primitive people running around in the jungle, theyre like savages." there was all sorts of idiotic, anglo-centric arrogance back then. and a whole lot of body bags coming home. very similar to the stuff i hear from americans about how the people in the middle-east are animals and we should 'nuke it to glass' or some idiocy. (people who do not understand what nuclear weapons really do, by the way...) this is a classic 'dehumanization of the enemy' psychological response. i find it depressing for us as a species. i think we should honor the enemy and we should respect him. and we should crush him. but we shouldnt dehumanize him, thats the stuff of mental midgetry.

and in vietnam our military did a good job, and the soldiers in my opinion were utterly amazing and brave and won many battles. but the leaders of our country blundered mightily. like a drunk guy, the fists are hard and they may land punches, but the stupid brain should have never started the fight. i think iraq is very similar. great fists, crappy brain.

also, the war on terror isnt a normal war. to me its more like the 'war on drugs.' (how are we doing on that one by the way?) occupying land is actually counterproductive in this war. there is no front. we're going after a network. and they are similar - our national interests require us to (co)operate on the soil of other nations to try to stop drugs at the source. <cough> afghanistan poppy production <cough> and to intercept shipments at the borders. and it requires intelligence gathering and all that good stuff. a good counterargument is that americans do not demand terrorism the way that they demand drugs. and my counter to that is that the drug folks are motivated by money, and the terrorists by religious ideaology, which does not require our demand in order to increase it's fervor. so it's actually worse, because you can't reduce demand in the same way.

our enemy is strong, it is devious, it is innovative, and it is determined. my opinion on the war on terror is that we must use our military to defend ourselves, but it is primarily an intelligence struggle and an idealogical struggle. imagine the cold war without the tanks, fighter jets, submarines, and ICBMs. the problem is, they (fundamentalist islamic folks) could control the resource that our way of life is predicated upon - oil. which is why i think we need a 'manhattan project' for fuel efficient internal combustion engines and one for fuel cells. the real struggle here is to stop using so much oil - the real battle is here at home.

anyway, this is an emotional issue, and we're here to talk about motorcycles and how amazingly wonderful bmws are. i think im going to try to get back to that common ground that we share. and we use less oil by riding our motorcycles, and i think that is a very good thing, so i'm proud of us! :D

thanks.

[MarkF]

Obviously you are more learned and more informed on the subject than I. There is no way I can change your mind. But, I consider myself more informed than the majority of Americans. And I remain convinced that the war on terror (really a police matter now) and the war in Iraq are two seperate objectives now and both can be won.

History will write this time as a blunder if nothing changes but if a secular democracy takes hold in Iraq the war will be a triumph!

MarkF

[R75rider]

getting back to the subject... I can't vote either since i've watched the video too. I'm of the opinion that our military should just shoot anyone they see with a weapon and blow up any building they think is storage for weapons, holy place or not. The enemy is hiding in their mosque like a scared girl hiding from a vampire in an old movie.

BMW'a are great aren't they?

[Gnome]

Give em hell 1flyer!
I was over there for the first "Gulf War",(operation desert sheild/storm).
All those pictures are from the prison is some ******* sending the pictures out and feeding the liberal media, wanting to stop the war,and is probally working for the French,the Russians and John F-ing Kerry.
The prison photos were psy-ops pics only. They were not torturing the prisoners at all, but were breaking their will,by humiliation. Break the will,screw with the mind and then the information flows. That is all.

I say we should find an alternate energy source and starve these *******s back into the stone age.