The Dumbing of America

[KGT1200]

Since I was just accused of such, I wanted to get the opinion of the group of what that term means.

To me it means the lunacy of playing hours on computer screens, watching hours of mindless TV, families who never eat together, or participate in family dinner time discussions, and a million other traits of America's culture that lead to a bland at best culture. I find text messaging the WORST example!

In my case, the to-remain-unnamed-source used this label based on grammar errors on my part. Touché! But what does the term mean to you? Is it true? Is America getting worse? Is the "dumming" (BTW not even a word:stick ) getting worse? Or better?

Is "no child left behind" policy working, or is it segregating a segment of our population to living the life of poverty due the stigma and label of special education?

Are the many types of speed amphetamines available for special education kids working or making America sicker (sic)?

Is the Dumbing a trend? Or is America thinking more liberal and analytical and less anal and literal?

Anybody have an opinion?

[SNC1923]

Hey Red,

Obviously, someone attacked you. I don't like to hear about that, especially on our forum. When someone is in a debate, and points out grammar errors on the other's part, he's changing the subject of the debate and engaging in a "straw-man fallacy." Your affinity for English grammar or occasional misuse of such probably has little, if anything, to do with your intelligence.

The America you describe, hours of mindless TV, no family dinners, etc., concerns me as I think it does many people of our generation. We are becoming bland, and fat, and anti-intellectual. It's a disturbing trend to be sure. . . .

The "No Child Left Behind" act is a completely unfunded empty promise. It's an attempt to corporatize public education and, predictably, it's not working. Ask any school teacher.

Have a better day, man.

[PAULBACH]

redclfco.

It would be hard to disagree with most of that which you imply. :brow

[Bob_M]

Having watched my son in middle school and high school be teased for being scholarly, I have come to the opinion that there is an anti-intellectual bias in public education. The high school drop out rates are astronomical, especially in urban core areas, and the opportunity lost in allowing those youths to forego high school clearly "dumbs down" our society. 2 days ago trying to get customer service for our TV the tech representative did not know the meaning of the word "horizontal".

One has only to look at TV news to know that a quest for information is not what is driving the content of that infotainment. The Brittany watch, Meth watch and kitten rescue stories (baby ducks or dog in the culvert) get the ratings so real issues are glazed over or ignored. Any story that requires some back story development is not aired because we no longer have the attention span to watch. That costs us all, because things that happen make the news, but the reason that those things happen do not make the news. The things (bridge collapse) make headlines, but the solutions (infrastructure repair funding - taxes) are not included in the same story.

Trying to stay out of political discourse, the current President considered his "average guy" persona as an asset. The highly educated opponent was labled as elite (and less masculine) as if being highly educated was a character flaw. For one I would rather have a President that is smarter than I am (and that is not setting the bar very high)

Higher education has become a commodity and a profit center for banks and lending institutions at a very high cost to the country. Persons who want higher education, who are qualified to take advantage of college education are denied that because it is not affordable. The entire country would benifit with a higher percentage of college graduates earning higher wages, but public policy does not see past the first filter of college financing.

Still, my son stayed true to his scholarly character as have most of his class mates. There are lots of bright, driven young people out there who do well in an economy that respects and requires their talents.

[screwtop]

Since I was just accused of such, I wanted to get the opinion of the group of what that term means.

To me it means the lunacy of playing hours on computer screens, watching hours of mindless TV, families who never eat together, or participate in family dinner time discussions, and a million other traits of America's culture that lead to a bland at best culture. I find text messaging the WORST example!

In my case, the to-remain-unnamed-source used this label based on grammar errors on my part. Touché! But what does the term mean to you? Is it true? Is America getting worse? Is the "dumming" (BTW not even a word:stick ) getting worse? Or better?

Is "no child left behind" policy working, or is it segregating a segment of our population to living the life of poverty due the stigma and label of special education?

Are the many types of speed amphetamines available for special education kids working or making America sicker (sic)?

Is the Dumbing a trend? Or is America thinking more liberal and analytical and less anal and literal?

Anybody have an opinion?

I think you've pretty much nailed it. Your first point speaks to a generation of kids that are becoming so intoxicated with the immediate gratification of electronic entertainment/media that they no longer go outside to play. The opportunity to learn from interactions with other playmates and have "good clean fun" is becoming rare.

I think the "dumbing" is getting worse. Kids are not held to standards, and I've even heard on the news that correct spelling is no longer even a requirement on some grade school tests (as long as it's "close" it is not marked wrong). History is being re-written. I won't even go there.

No child left behind is a joke. It penalizes the gifted kids and fosters an environment of inclusion, rather than fair competition. God forbid everyone should not be the same.

That's my rant. Next.

[glwestcott]

I think its more a reflection of age. My grandfather thought my father's generation were dumb. My father thought mine was. The ancient Greeks thought the same thing about the younger generation. I'm 61 and I find problems with my kid's generation.

We've been on earth in our present form about 200,000 years or so and only the last teeny tiny few thousand years have done anything other than hunting and gathering. Shoot, agriculture only started in the thousands of years ago. I seriously doubt that each generation is getting dumber and suspect this is just us growing older and finding our comfort zone slipping away as newer folks change the world in ways we don't particularly feel comfortable in.

Take the texting thing. I must admit that I can't stand it myself, but, when we're around our youngest (mid-twenties, fully employed, self-supporting, YIPPEE!) son and I see the facility he has with it and the networking he does with his friends and coworkers using it, I have to admit there may be something there that's good.

Basically, I think I would worry about more important things. Perhaps the incredible financial mess this past eight years has created for our country would do as a focus. That's something our "smarter generation" is responsible for doing and something that this "dumber generation" and many more after it will have to deal with.:sick

[hlothery]

I grew up in the Blue Ridge Mountains.....appalachia, if you will. ( I'm not a Hillbilly....I'm an Appalachian-American!) I believe much of the responsibility lies with parents, who allow electronic baby-sitters as a matter of convience, and never demand performance from their kids. Don Williams has a country song with a line the says "but I was smart, and I could choose.....learned to talk like the man on the 6 o'clock news". My parents (mother in particular) insisted we use proper english, proper grammar, proper pronunciation in our household. We were enrolled in sports, and in music. Education was demanded of us, even if we felt our delicate sensibilities were being infringed upon. I believe that is a large part of what is missing (although not the only part). Just my $.02.

[crazydrummerdude]

It's easy to point fingers. People make honest mistakes.

It's hard to judge anyone/anything else, because there are so many variables. Since the beginning of mankind, there have been people who work/try hard, and people who don't. The dumbing/numbing has always been there, it just depends on whether or not people focus on it or avoid it.

The squeaky wheels get the grease, though, and you never end up hearing about all the people who are just going on day by day not whining/complaining/wasting their lives in front of the TV.

I'm proof that the public school system is, and has been, pretty damn pathetic. I got kicked out of one high school, dropped out of the other, and still graduated on time at a third one, all while hardly ever showing up. Even when I did show up, I wouldn't put any effort in. Compared to my 10-11(?) years of private school before, it was a freaking joke.

No one's perfect, either. Sometimes the desire to curb the whole world around to cater to one persons imperfections is a direct cause of another persons lack of trying, or someones source for a complaint. Either offer advice, accept advice, or avoid it all together. Depends on the situation/person/weather/altitude/attitude/blahblahblah.

:buds

[jdmetzger]

I think you've pretty much nailed it. Your first point speaks to a generation of kids that are becoming so intoxicated with the immediate gratification of electronic entertainment/media that they no longer go outside to play. The opportunity to learn from interactions with other playmates and have "good clean fun" is becoming rare.

I think the "dumbing" is getting worse. Kids are not held to standards, and I've even heard on the news that correct spelling is no longer even a requirement on some grade school tests (as long as it's "close" it is not marked wrong). History is being re-written. I won't even go there.

No child left behind is a joke. It penalizes the gifted kids and fosters an environment of inclusion, rather than fair competition. God forbid everyone should not be the same.

That's my rant. Next.

When I was growing up (not that long ago, I guess), I never had a Nintendo or anything, although my parents made sure there was a computer in the house. Sure I had games to play, but I can't remember sitting inside on a nice day to play games; I wanted to be outside. Had I not gone outside, they would have shut the computer off for me, I'm sure. I thank them for keeping a computer around, though... it's made me into the fantastic I.T. guy I am today.

Anyhow, I see problems that annoy me immensely. Lots of people have this "I'm the most important thing so get out of my way/do what I want" mentality. People think they are entitled to anything without having to put anything in. Rampant lawsuits over stupid stuff are the norm. The whole "step on you to get ahead" thing is considered normal and acceptable. No common courtesy; neighbors being loud at all hours and not quieting down if you ask them nicely. It's ridiculous. I could go no and on. I just hate people so much. I think it's part of the reason I enjoyed my lone ride last summer in remote areas; I didn't have to deal with many people.

As for "god forbid everyone should not be the same"; it reminds me of the "fun games" where kids play sports and there are no losers. To heck with that. You will not always win, and I think it's good to teach that early. I played sports the second I was in school (soccer) and I could deal with losing even when I was in first grade. It wasn't the end of the world, and my self-esteem wasn't ruined. What happens when little Timmy grows up and doesn't get that job he interviewed for? How will he handle not "winning"?

I once helped coach a soccer team for a short time many years ago. I had them do a lot of running, which is exactly what I dealt with when I played. Some parents thought it was great - exactly what the team needed. They ran, did drills, had a break, ran, did drill, etc. I was no slave driver. I remember one parent who was angry because their daughter didn't want to play because she had to run so much at practice. It's SOCCER. Put in the time and effort, or quit. There are no handouts. This goes back to the entitlement thing.

My dad was a teacher; special education, actually (just the kids who had some trouble in some subjects, not "mentally handicapped"). He talked about parents being involved and interested in their students education when he started (70's). He still runs into some of his former students in town; working jobs and living a normal, productive life. Fast forward a number of years and many parents have no interest in getting involved. They feel the school should do everything and they should not have to lift a finger. The students with that lack of parental support were the ones who perform worse and have behavioral problems. I'm sure my taxes will be paying for them (if they aren't already) as they sit at home and don't work. Ridiculous. I am glad he's retired; some of those troublemakers were getting violent and surely had a complete lack of discipline at home. He once was hit with a 2x4 in the back (teaching them shop). Had I done that, the school and police would have been the least of my worries, I assure you.

Welcome to the selfish generation.

[kbasa]

Suspicion of smart people and an inability to generate critical thought will be the death of American leadership.

[username]

this is just my opinion!

i find that the more i interact with the general population, i have four general observations:

1. they are the most giving, sweetest people that i will ever meet.

2. they are working their butts off to break even and most seem to be falling behind, or headed for financial or health-related disaster.

3. they are generally ignorant of things that are taught in public schools prior to 9th grade. they are unaware of or sometimes scornful of advanced education. (i often get called "college boy" in a pejorative way when i attempt to explain away perpetual motion machines' difficulties with regard to the 2nd law (yes, LAW, not opinion) of thermodynamics.)

4. they lack useful critical thinking skills.

i personally think #3 and #4 are the cause of #2. #1 keeps them from being killed and eaten by others.

i guess what bothers me the most is #4. #4 results in minds that are very easy to "program" and these minds are usually vulnerable to oversimplifications of what are typically complex issues. it results in a mind that seeks binary quantization of all issues. is it good, or bad? is he wrong, or right? many many of life's challenges fall into a grey area. a middle ground. it's harder to deal with that kind of thing.

i would be very happy if i met people who while watching TV news and reading the paper or a magazine and being fed information asked simple questions continuously and in real time with the information flow:

why am i being told this?
what are the chances that these people are seeking the truth?
is it possible that this report is incomplete? what is being left out?
what is the motivation of the person reporting this? how do they benefit?
how likely is it that this information is 100% accurate?
did that person just give me a fact or an opinion?
is it possible that this issue is too complex to be explained in 23 seconds?
where can i get more information on this topic?

this is not likely to happen. a while back they measured people's brain activity while they watched TV. they found that in most people there was less brain activity watching TV than WHILE SLEEPING. (read the book, "four arguments for the elimination of television" for more on this.)

i ask these questions when i watch TV news (i invariably get force fed some CNN or FOX news at a bar, or a pizza joint, or the airport), and the answers that i get time and time again from them are the reason i do not voluntarily watch TV news. occasionally i strive to be properly informed on an issue. when i do this, it typically takes up about ten hours of my time to just get started. i seek out magazines from the left and the right that discuss the issue (for instance, i will go read the new republic, the nation, the wall street journal, and the weekly standard - several articles from each publication - to try to get an idea of whats going on. usually by looking for what is LEFT OUT of these articles, i can piece things together. then i go to the book store and spend about $50 buying quarterly journals published by 3-4 think tanks. again, i sample the spectrum of leanings to try to get a balanced view. if i can, i also read books on or around the topic. (for instance, reading about the ottoman empire and world war one is helpful in putting many of today's current events into context.)

it feels good and it's easier to make a quick judgment and then repeat it as if i am an authority - that really strokes my ego. it's WORK to remain informed, and it's HARD to always be learning and it's SCARY to think that maybe my views are wrong or that i am not smart enough to form a solid opinion on a topic. but i try anyway. i think it's part of my job as a citizen of the united states of america. i must strive to be informed, educated, and conscious of the impact my opinions, behavior, and choices have on others.

i think lots of people are so worn out from their jobs, and just trying to survive, that the idea of reading for 2-3 hours after working ten hours and sitting in traffic is not feasible. i happen to be wired so that if i am not absorbing new information and doing something with it, i feel dead.

this is just my opinion!

[RJM2096]

I do not really think we are dumbing down America. My wife is a teacher and she feels that more and more is being expected of our children at the same time the parents are taking a relatively minor role in their education. A potential result of this situation is that some children are having trouble coping with the pressure. You cant beleive the pressure put on our grwon children to go to the right college or really excel in sports. Yes, "leave no child behind" seems like just a slogan and nothing more.

PS: I make tons of mistakes in my posts (wish we had a grammar checker).

[tessler]

Dale,
Thank you for your article in the May ON. I enjoyed it immensely and appreciate the time and effort employed in bringing it to our members and fellow readers.

The same title that you chose for this thread, "the Dumbing of America", was also chosen by the writer Susan Jacoby for a thought provoking article in the Washington Post back in February. Citing people like Richard Hofstadter and the late Daniel Patrick Moynihan, Jacoby explores the concept of American "Anti-Intellectualism" and shrinking public attention spans as phenomena that have been slowly percolating upwards (or, possibly, downwards in this case) since the late 50s. Here's the link to that story. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/15/AR2008021502901.html) Ms. Jacoby is also the author of a new book called The Age of American Unreason (http://www.amazon.com/Age-American-Unreason-Susan-Jacoby/dp/0375423745), a book which is on my reading list for this summer.

Suspicion of smart people and an inability to generate critical thought will be the death of American leadership.:nod In a nutshell, some of what Jacoby explores in her writings.

Again, Dale, I truly admired and appreciated your useful and informative article in this month's Rally Update section of the magazine and look forward to more contributions from you. I also like Vince's new head-shot on the "Headlight" page, but that's another story altogether. ;)

[hlothery]

Lee,

I really enjoyed reading your thought-provoking response, and agree with what you said. Had an example of #4, (and #1, for that matter)and the effects of TV just the other night. Seems a person thought it would be fun to cut through my front lawn with his/her car and accelerate at the same time, leaving two nice tracks thought the middle. I was lamenting the violation of my beautiful grass, when a neighbor stopped by an opined the we could, ala CSI, measure the width of the tires and the width of the vehicles track and get the police to match it up with the make of the car and, thus, capture the perpetrator.


Ah.........no.

[lamble]

I've spare time, so I've re-entered school. This time in the USA. My experiences are far from complimentary. The teachers are under pressure to get results:in one class I'm given answers to tests before taking the tests, in another I can use notes I've written the constraint being hand written not cut a paste jobs, but I still have the answers given/accessible without any recourse to learning or memorising. In one programme, I was given a 5% bonus for finding the classroom (it's off the main corridor, so not blatantly obvious) which I thought was condesending, until I realised two students never found the class...ever.

I watch teachers desperate to get students through these programmes.

The students themselves are a mixed bunch, some just wanting credits and totally disenfranchised from the topics. Others are 'Ipoded up' from the moment they arrive in class, until the moment they leave, texting being their only distraction. In a class of 12, I'd say 12 will pass...two of us seem bothered, one is a natural and the rest are just warming seats.

Now in fairness, there'd be a similar experience in classes in the UK I'd guess. When and where did this attitude come from and was there ever a time it was not thus?

My education in the UK followed what would be termed, a privileged path. Even then and there, there were kids who were disruptive, but not on the level I see now.

There's been a shift in power from the adults to the kids. Who gave them these powers to object, disobey, be scornful etc...? We did. Us, the adults that now bemoan the lack of respect. Why did we do it? Because we didn't like the dictatorial education methods, the suppression of what we'd have called creativity but our elders would have termed rebelliousness. We did it willingly, trying to help. We are to blame for sowing what we are now reaping and it's too late to change it for ourselves. At best we can hope that the generations we've brought up react as we did and make a change back, if not all the way, then some of the way, perhaps finding that happy medium our generation leaped across and ignored.

Dumbing down is a worry as it panders to the lowest common denominator. If we keep creating and lowering that point, then the slide will continue. Unfortunately it's where the numbers are and numbers make ratings and make revenue streams. Perhaps we are turning into a world where dumb folk will be raised and grazed, then used like disposable commodities to do the horrible work that pays just enough to enable them to buy the products that the not so dumb have had the dumb make....or are we already there? Haven't we always been "there"?

[knary]

Question: Humanity is certainly a fountain of stupid and ignorant, but is this a new phenomenon? Are people more ignorant today than 10 years or 20 years ago?

I don't think so. Stupid isn't new. I'd bet people were complaining about the "dumbing down" for millennia. We all have our personal anecdotes. We all have our expectations of what metric should be used to determine an individuals intellectual ambition. But, IMHO, much of what gets said can be boiled down to, "Kids these days!" :ha

:dunno

[hlothery]

I must have missed the article were there pictures with it ?

:rofl :rofl :rofl

[Rapid_Roy]

Since I was just accused of such, I wanted to get the opinion of the group of what that term means.

To me it means the lunacy of playing hours on computer screens, watching hours of mindless TV, families who never eat together, or participate in family dinner time discussions, and a million other traits of America's culture that lead to a bland at best culture. I find text messaging the WORST example!

In my case, the to-remain-unnamed-source used this label based on grammar errors on my part. Touché! But what does the term mean to you? Is it true? Is America getting worse? Is the "dumming" (BTW not even a word:stick ) getting worse? Or better?

Is "no child left behind" policy working, or is it segregating a segment of our population to living the life of poverty due the stigma and label of special education?

Are the many types of speed amphetamines available for special education kids working or making America sicker (sic)?

Is the Dumbing a trend? Or is America thinking more liberal and analytical and less anal and literal?

Anybody have an opinion?

I don't understand what you are asking.:nyah

Intellectualism is good, but I have met plenty of intellectuals who didn't have a spoonful of common sense. I believe it is helpful to have both, and use both.

[KGT1200]

I have a friend who teaches at Colorado State University who uses an interesting technique for his outlines for two research papers during the semester for his undergraduate classes; he bans any internet sources, and requires specific citations from the library, no internet references allowed.

The reason is that he feels Google is a major contributor to the "dumbing" of America.

Those of us who attended college before the mid 80s were forced in researching subjects ala the Dewey decimal system, and in process of said research learned in our process many, many things. Rick (Professor Rick) feels that when the answer is one click away, you lose that educational savvy, you never learn the process of analytical thinking, you never learn processes, you simply click; and the answer appears if not the whole darn paper! We learn from our mistakes, and we learn from our processes. When we walk through the maze of life, we become better at it because we have taken wrong turns, we have learned from our mistakes.

I can't quote it, but have a poem at home that I will have to paraphrase today.

I walk down a street. I know there is a hole in the street. I fall into that hole. It hurts. I get out eventually.

The next day I walk down the street. I know the hole is there, and I know it hurts when I fall in. Today I walk around the hole

The next day I walk down another street.


Does the speed and efficiency of the World Wide Web add to or subtract from the educational experience for the sake of efficiency? Or both?

[kbasa]

I have a friend who teaches at Colorado State University who uses an interesting technique for his outlines for two research papers during the semester for his undergraduate classes; he bans any internet sources, and requires specific citations from the library, no internet references allowed.

The reason is that he feels Google is a major contributor to the "dumbing" of America.



Interesting idea.

Watch this year's presidential elections. We'll see sound bites and other methodologies employed to keep people from having to form an opinion. If you belong to any forums where politics are discussed, you'll see whatever the new "points" are being lobbed by partisans on both sides, with little in the way of critical, deductive thought anywhere in the conversation.

Any of the political talking heads shows are that way. It turns into who can yell louder, rather than who can effectively construct an argument and provide true supporting points to that argument.

Was it ever better? I don't know. But I seem to remember not having 20+ debates before the primaries were over, nor do I remember having a primary season that lasted for nearly two years. I think when you have a political season that lasts that long, people just run out of things to talk about that actually matter. As an example, Obama's minister. Who cares? If one of the other candidates was Catholic, would we expect him to leave the church because of the troubles they've had?

This kind of pandering, the reporting of "news" that isn't, is what has made us a nation of diminished expectations, I think. The larger, more complex issues, like our economy, education, health care and the like don't get solved because it's easier to say "he should (or should not) ditch that minister" or "abortion should/should not be allowed" than considering the nuances and complexities of providing good education for the children of this country.

Unlike TV, we can't solve our issues in an hour and I fear that most of us don't have an attention span that lasts that long.

dave
rider

[screwtop]

An oldie but a goodie......

Rule 1: Life is not fair - get used to it.

Rule 2: The world does not care about your self-esteem. The world will expect you to accomplish something before you feel good about yourself.

Rule 3: You will not make $100,000 a year right out of high school. You won't be a Vice-President with a personal secretary and BMW until you earn both.

Rule 4: If you think your teacher is tough, wait until you get a boss.

Rule 5: A summer job is not beneath your dignity. Your grandparents had a different word for summer work: they called it opportunity.

Rule 6: If you mess up, it's not your parents' fault, so don't whine about your mistakes, learn from them.

Rule 7: Before you were born, Mom and Dad weren't as boring as they are now. They got that way from paying your bills, cleaning your clothes, and listening to you talk about how cool you think you are. So before you gripe about how stupid you think parents are, try cleaning up your own room.

Rule 8: Your school may have done away with winners and losers, but life has not. In some schools, they have abolished failing grades and they'll give you as many chances as you need to pass the test. This does not bear the slightest resemblance to anything in real life.

Rule 9: Life is not divided into semesters. You don't get summers off and very few employers are interested in helping you find yourself. Do that on your own time.

Rule 10: Television is not real life. In real life people actually
have to leave the coffee shop and go to jobs.

Rule 11: Be nice to geeks. Chances are, you'll end up working for one.

[tessler]

Question: Humanity is certainly a fountain of stupid and ignorant, but is this a new phenomenon? Are people more ignorant today than 10 years or 20 years ago?

I don't think so. Stupid isn't new. I'd bet people were complaining about the "dumbing down" for millennia. We all have our personal anecdotes. We all have our expectations of what metric should be used to determine an individuals intellectual ambition. But, IMHO, much of what gets said can be boiled down to, "Kids these days!" :ha And I never tire of hearing you yell this after my friends and me as we speed through your petunias on our Stingrays. :ha

[username]

I do not really think we are dumbing down America. My wife is a teacher and she feels that more and more is being expected of our children at the same time the parents are taking a relatively minor role in their education.

wait - that sounds dumb to me. :ha

[username]

Lee,

I really enjoyed reading your thought-provoking response, and agree with what you said. Had an example of #4, (and #1, for that matter)and the effects of TV just the other night. Seems a person thought it would be fun to cut through my front lawn with his/her car and accelerate at the same time, leaving two nice tracks thought the middle. I was lamenting the violation of my beautiful grass, when a neighbor stopped by an opined the we could, ala CSI, measure the width of the tires and the width of the vehicles track and get the police to match it up with the make of the car and, thus, capture the perpetrator.


Ah.........no.

were you sitting on your couch watching TV when this happened? that would be poetic! :D

[PAULBACH]

This is an important difference.

It used to be the kids were afraid of the teachers.

Now the teachers fear the students and the students fear only other students.

[knary]

And I never tire of hearing you yell this after my friends and me as we speed through your petunias on our Stingrays. :ha

GET OFF MY LAWN
and keep it down.

You kids and your hop-hip music. :bluduh

[knary]

This is an important difference.

It used to be the kids were afraid of the teachers.

Now the teachers fear the students and the students fear only other students.

My wife's a teacher and has taught in several school districts in different parts of the country, from middle class stable communities to at-risk communities. Most of the students still respect the teachers. Not as many as when I was a youngin, but still most. And even when dealing with the worst kids in a rough school, she and her peers were not afraid of the students. YMMV.

[SIBUD]

I think the response depends on where you live.

Nashville, IL rural, 3,300 population. Excellent public grade and high school. Discipline still required of students. High scores on standard state tests. Financially stable schools. Large parent involvement (just back from "Grandparent" day at the grade school. Several hundred in the audience. All three of our children graduated from high school here and all went to private collages and have earned advanced degrees (I'm the most undereducated in our family with a BA). My wife and daughter-in-law both primary teachers.

In public colleges and universities in Illinois, logic is a REQUIRED COURSE, that if you don't pass you don't graduate.

So, from this suburb of Lilly Dale, I'm optimistic.

And for the grammarians here, don't forget that ad that stated "A mind is a terrible thing to waste."

[hlothery]

were you sitting on your couch watching TV when this happened? that would be poetic! :D

I think I may have been watching one of the CSIs:nyah

[john1691]

The "no child left behind" policy, signed by Bush, but written by......Ted Kennedy? was a good idea, prodding the public schools to perform better. The reality is that the schools now just teach to the tests, and as mentioned earlier, give the answers to the questions. Our math and science scores continue to drop in the international standings, and thanks to IM and texting, our English is horrible. For someone who is content to live in public housing/trailerpark, there is no incentive to work hard in school and move up on the economic ladder. We give you money to stay home, money to make babies, money for food, money for healthcare, and then Social Security for retirement, whether you earned it or not.

I know there needs to be a "safety net", accidents happen, corporations fold, disease , whatever, but we have gotten out of hand with give-a-ways to every segment of society. People shine when they are rewarded for a job well done. If you take away the prize at the end of the race, why bother running................

[lamble]

Kids aren't stupid, they recognise that a tutor has an obligation to get as many of them through programmes as possible: failure to do so being detrimental to the teachers job/career.

So pass me?
Make it so I can't fail and you and I will both look good.
The college will get a better reputation as a successful educational establishment, attracting more students who will pay more money thereby deriving more fund streams.

Only when tasked with work, relating to their 'educational stupification years', does the reality hit home. That's why employers keep asking for better students. Students who can work problems out. Students who can apply logic. Students who have conversational and interpersonal accumen. That's why employers no longer trust grades alone. That's part of the reason they outsource to regions where education is prized and it is a priviledge to undertake it.

I was given this by an American I was chatting with. Follow a boxing metaphor and the USA would be somewhere in the rocky 5 area. Had the hunger and determination. Built up and succeeded. Got the taste of success...over indulged when everything was handed on a plate and then wondered why the Russian beat the b'jeezus out of him, then found it harder to make a come back each time but could still knock over a few dolts whilst relishing in the glory days.

Don't know if I see that as true. I tend towards a much earlier stage of development, pre-Rocky I, the concept and storyboard pitch years.

[PAULBACH]

My wife's a teacher and has taught in several school districts in different parts of the country, from middle class stable communities to at-risk communities. Most of the students still respect the teachers. Not as many as when I was a youngin, but still most. And even when dealing with the worst kids in a rough school, she and her peers were not afraid of the students. YMMV.

Fear comes from many sources. Ask about calls to the principal bases on what was said, may have been said or what was perceived to be said.

Sounds like your wife teaches in an exemplary community. Nice to know these communities still exist.

[knary]

Fear comes from many sources. Ask about calls to the principal bases on what was said, may have been said or what was perceived to be said.

Sounds like your wife teaches in an exemplary community. Nice to know these communities still exist.

She so doesn't teach in an exemplary community. :ha

She gets undermined by administrators and parents as much as any teacher. But never ever does that stop her from trying to do what needs to be done. Nor, from what we know, does it stop the other teachers. Fear just isn't part of the equation.

[PAULBACH]

Alleviating Teachers' Fear of Parents By Inside Private School Management

Click Here (http://www.isacs.org/resources/monographs/library.asp?action=show&category=11&id=236)

It just occurred to me that many schools have metal detectors and armed policemen walking the halls. What is that all about?

[knary]

Click Here (http://www.isacs.org/resources/monographs/library.asp?action=show&category=11&id=236)

It just occurred to me that many schools have metal detectors and armed policemen walking the halls. What is that all about?

It keeps the old people with the metal hips out. :ha

It's about two things:
1. Bad things being brought into schools in areas where bad things do happen (e.g. gang riddled area).
2. Parents and administrators buying into the media perpetrated myth that schools are more violent than ever with a mass murderer just waiting to come out in every school.

[ultracyclist]

I am the past president (2 terms) of a former parent-teacher advocacy group for gifted and talented students from both middle school and high school in our village (suburb). I demanded much from my board, and we were successful putting on district wide programs for ALL parents and students. We also opened up our programs to other districts when we brought in nationally recoginized presenters.

I could write for hours, but the secret is to get the parents involved in the education process. But the structure of families has changed, and too many parents after a long day at work simply do not want more "work".

Now if ya really want to strike a raw nerve....we could start a new thread on the overemphasis of athletics in the education system and how some schools build new stadium complexes instead of refurbishing the language labs or chemisty class rooms....

I find it fascinating that taxpayers will vote for a bond referendum (that means higher property taxes) that supports athletics, but these same taxpayers will not support a referendum for academic needs.

Oh man...don't get me started...

[PacWestGS]

may b we r 2 confused 2 c that ppl r re-riting merican histry & it shld b shoter than it is

i thnk we hve our heads n the sand win it comes 2 propr new english

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMS_language

WSU Q (What Say You?)

cheers m8 :D



:nyah

[rgvilla]

my wife is a University Professor, she teaches English, specializes in popular culture and literature. Her main goal with a class of first year students is to foster critical thinking. Sometimes she finds it amazingly hard to do. She also has problems with students taking assignments right off of the internet and turning them in. When she is suspicious she just googles the article and there is the paper word for word. On the other hand she has wonderful, thoughtful, intelligent students who work hard and don't cheat.
Even though I text with my 20 something sons and daughter I don't think it makes me any dumber. If anything spell check on word perfect has made me less rigorous in my writing at work.
I got rid of my TV over 15 years ago and don't miss it a bit, I find I can't stand to watch much except sports now when I do watch the tube. We do however rent a lot of movies from netflix. I read to my kids every night when they were growing up and they are all now regular readers. We exchange books and talk politics and literature.
I work with mostly impoverished people and see the terrible effects poverty has on their lives including a mind numbing inability to do anything but try to survive. They struggle to get by and that uses up all their time and energy. I also see a lot of selfishness and self centeredness but when investigated I find that it comes from terrible abuse and poverty. Wish I had the answers to some of these problems.

[Bill Burke]

From time to time in American history - try the "Great Depression" which followed the "Roaring 20's" or WWII which preceded the 50's - we've had a galvanizing "event" that shocked the nation into rediscovering the fundamental value of community and hard work.

I hope I'm wrong, but my current sense is that "a hard rain, gonna fall" and that there will be some real pain ahead for this generation. I've tried to prepare my children for "reality" - and my vision of reality is not particularly sweet. We're outsourcing hard work, and I have a hard time understanding how that's sustainable.

[wildwilly]

It all begins at home, doesn't it? The parents of nearly all of our problem children are endowed with pathetic parenting skills.

It's very easy to make a baby. The hard part is investing the time required to raise one. I observe that most of these folks occupy their childrens' free time with tv and video games to substitute for the time that they should be spending to encourage their children to read and develope social skills. What a cop out. It's so easy to pass their responsibility off to the public school system to inject their children with personal responsibility, honor, respect for authority, and motivation.

Apparently, the U.S. education system is a dismal failure, with few exceptions. And more money is not the solution. It's a societal problem. What we have are a significant number of educators who are offspring of those same pathetic parents. So, mediocrity is okay. Competition is bad. Hence, the main emphasis of the education system, it seems, is to teach a child political and social correctness. It wouldn't be so bad if it really worked. But the product that is coming out are young people who are functionally inept....walking, talking disasters. Just watch the Jay Leno Show sometime.

What is so ironic is that the education cirriculums of several developing third world countries are producing youngsters far more academically advanced and competitive. And something else that is emphasized over there....the English language is taught as a second language underlining that these students are far ahead of our own to compete globally.

You can bet that the rewards of a good education is not taken for granted by the parents of those kids. :nono

[knary]

Apparently, the U.S. education system is a dismal failure

Hyperbole won't address the problems. The vast majority of us here went through the public education system and are apparently doing pretty damn well in our lives.

[BubbaZanetti]

Hyperbole won't address the problems. The vast majority of us here went through the public education system and are apparently doing pretty damn well in our lives.

i loved the public schools i went to, not in a town with much money or resources, but we cranked out a great class. i felt like i was wonderfully educated and managed to, for lack of a better phrase, kick the crap out of kids from many prestigious massachusetts private schools at the state geography bee when i was in 7th grade. the schools are not at fault here, they try their best to compete with ever increasing outside influences.

i don't know what's going on, but texting is certainly not something to get up in arms about, i love texting because it means i don't have to talk on the phone, which i've always loathed. far more disturbing a trend than simple text messaging is the whole isolation vibe much of todays electronic culture gives off to me, i can honestly see things like clubs becoming a thing of the past sometime in the future.

[username]

It all begins at home, doesn't it? The parents of nearly all of our problem children are endowed with pathetic parenting skills.

It's very easy to make a baby. The hard part is investing the time required to raise one. I observe that most of these folks occupy their childrens' free time with tv and video games to substitute for the time that they should be spending to encourage their children to read and develope social skills. What a cop out. It's so easy to pass their responsibility off to the public school system to inject their children with personal responsibility, honor, respect for authority, and motivation.

Apparently, the U.S. education system is a dismal failure, with few exceptions. And more money is not the solution. It's a societal problem. What we have are a significant number of educators who are offspring of those same pathetic parents. So, mediocrity is okay. Competition is bad. Hence, the main emphasis of the education system, it seems, is to teach a child political and social correctness. It wouldn't be so bad if it really worked. But the product that is coming out are young people who are functionally inept....walking, talking disasters. Just watch the Jay Leno Show sometime.

What is so ironic is that the education cirriculums of several developing third world countries are producing youngsters far more academically advanced and competitive. And something else that is emphasized over there....the English language is taught as a second language underlining that these students are far ahead of our own to compete globally.

You can bet that the rewards of a good education is not taken for granted by the parents of those kids. :nono

i recommend watching less jay leno and spending that extra time talking to teachers and also to some of the young people today. many of them are exemplary. they certainly deserve better than negative sweeping generalizations. go to your local high school. you will certainly find plenty of burnouts, and you will also find some very hard working, very intelligent, highly educated young people that will do great things for our country. i think this has always been the case...

i have a book from 1931 that i read about 10 years ago. it's called, "conventional wisdom" and it is a collection of essays from that time. the book is full of discussions about how "kids these days" are not as good as when the authors were kids. (it wasnt just the kids, everything was lousy.) if i was alive as a teenager back then i would have written a rebuttal essay to all those "thinkers" and said, "hey, thanks for the great depression you old dopes." a few years later i would have written another one that said, "so how is your policy of isolationism and appeasement working, all you smarty pants in the earlier generation?" guess what, the young people generally think that the older folks are dipwads too.

when you find yourself judging an entire generation as a failure, you can raise your glass towards the generation that preceeded yours - they judged your generation to be a bunch of losers that would wreck everything too. of course, they won't see your toast, because they will be facing towards their previous generation that deemed THEM to be total idiots.

this works for young people too. you think us old people are idiots? just wait till your kids are your age and are preparing to assume the mantle of responsibility - theyre going to be telling you how dopey you are too. :ha

avoid sweeping generalizations, theyre always wrong. ;)

also, as is usually the case, great accomplishments come from a small cadre of talented people. not everyone is an einstein, a fermi, or a feynman. each generation has them. the most important thing we can do for young people is not complain about the dumb ones, but find the smart, hard-working ones and give them opportunities to make the world better. they will.

[RandallIsland]

I dated model
This last summer she texted
Me I learned damn quick.

When in Rome must do
What the two four old year do
Am I dumb hell no!

:ha

[dmaust01]

This is an interesting and thoughtful thread. I have been teaching college for more than 20 years...I was 12 when I started :) I find that my students range from thoughtful, smart, and devoted individuals to those that don't exhibit any observable degree of curiosity or interest. However, when I look around the university and see the millions of dollars spent on athletics while neglecting the needs of the other students, I can understand the underlying resentment as tuition continues to climb well ahead of the overall inflation rate. Also, when I look at the larger society and see more interest in American Idol and other mindless forms of entertainment than current social issues, I find it difficult to blame students for their apathy. Not to excuse the slackers, but remember that our culture produces our young people...they do not develop on their own. BTW, I also find that the few young people and children at BMW rallies tend to be a pretty self-confident and personable group of people. My stepchildren accompany us to some of the rallies and the other children/adults have been a positive addition to their lives. Ya'all are good role models...Thanks.

[wildwilly]

Hyperbole won't address the problems. The vast majority of us here went through the public education system and are apparently doing pretty damn well in our lives.

Well....May I suggest that nearly every one of us here who frequent this site are atypical rather than the norm of the public school system as it exists today.

I was educated in a rural community which was the largest in the county (population, 10K). Until the 8th grade, each teacher taught two grades in the same classroom (average, 50 pupils per).The teachers whom I still have the highest regard for were my math and science instructors. Why? Because they challenged me. It seemed that only the achievers were pupils. All of these old boys had gone to college on the GI Bill. Yeah. I'm retired and I done good, too.

I'll concede that I'm unfairly shotgunning my ire toward the whole education system. Everyone can cite an exception, or their own personal experience.

This what I do know:
Many school campuses now have high fences; keeping the students confined within, and creeps out.
Many schools have armed security and metal detectors.
Nearly every school will experience an assault on a teacher, either verbal, or physical.
Cheating is quite common and is apparently excusable.
Some educators, by their inaction, sanction that it's okay to deny, or permit physical confrontation to anyone expresses certain viewpoints, especially if it's not pc.
It is not uncommon for teachers to have intimate relationships with their underage students.

Who da thunkit.

[knary]

This what I do know:
Many school campuses now have high fences; keeping the students confined within, and creeps out.
Many schools have armed security and metal detectors.
Nearly every school will experience an assault on a teacher, either verbal, or physical.
Cheating is quite common and is apparently excusable.
Some educators, by their inaction, sanction that it's okay to deny, or permit physical confrontation to anyone expresses certain viewpoints, especially if it's not pc.
It is not uncommon for teachers to have intimate relationships with their underage students.

Who da thunkit.

How do you know this?

[glwestcott]

How do you know this?

Me too, I want'a know too.

[wildwilly]

How do you know this?

Well....I read it, and I see it.....in print and on the airways. I take in what my riding buddy informs me (math & English, secondary), and my sister (Spanish & English lit., secondary) describes on her daily schedule. And much of what they relate to me is supported other acquaintances who teach primary.

From what I gather, disruptive behavior within the classroom is quite common. Unfortunately, because of administrators' unwillingness, or inability to remove such distractions, both dedicated teachers and students suffer. Not surprisingly, the education system is faced with good teachers checking out, and a significant number of students graduating with poor reading and writing skills.( My neighbor, who is one of the student counselors at our JC, informs me that extra remedial classes have to be scheduled to accommodate first year students).

It's really refreshing to encounter someone, especially a young individual, who exhibits civility and can carry on an informed conversation. Anymore, this person is an exception and not the norm.

I'm done. :sick

[Easy]

I think the response depends on where you live.

Nashville, IL rural, 3,300 population. Excellent public grade and high school. Discipline still required of students. High scores on standard state tests. Financially stable schools. Large parent involvement (just back from "Grandparent" day at the grade school. Several hundred in the audience. All three of our children graduated from high school here and all went to private collages and have earned advanced degrees (I'm the most undereducated in our family with a BA). My wife and daughter-in-law both primary teachers.

In public colleges and universities in Illinois, logic is a REQUIRED COURSE, that if you don't pass you don't graduate.

So, from this suburb of Lilly Dale, I'm optimistic.

And for the grammarians here, don't forget that ad that stated "A mind is a terrible thing to waste."

Texas has an institutionalized test (TAKS) that high school students are required to take in order to graduate...an attempt to keep the standards up and dumbing down. It has had some unusual results.

The Houston Chronical has an interesting article about a student, who failed to pass the science portion of the TAKS exam. Her solution was to move to Colorado in order to graduate on time at a Colorado high school.

I like the idea of no student being left behind. But are all students created equal?


Houston Chronical article... http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5752137.html

Easy :german

[knary]

Well....I read it, and I see it.....in print and on the airways. I take in what my riding buddy informs me (math & English, secondary), and my sister (Spanish & English lit., secondary) describes on her daily schedule. And much of what they relate to me is supported other acquaintances who teach primary.

From what I gather, disruptive behavior within the classroom is quite common. Unfortunately, because of administrators' unwillingness, or inability to remove such distractions, both dedicated teachers and students suffer. Not surprisingly, the education system is faced with good teachers checking out, and a significant number of students graduating with poor reading and writing skills.( My neighbor, who is one of the student counselors at our JC, informs me that extra remedial classes have to be scheduled to accommodate first year students).

It's really refreshing to encounter someone, especially a young individual, who exhibits civility and can carry on an informed conversation. Anymore, this person is an exception and not the norm.

I'm done. :sick

Then you are, IMHO, falling prey to impressions built by our 24 hour media. Stories no longer stay local but make the national news and get repeated ad nauseam.

Let's take the "It is not uncommon for teachers to have intimate relationships with their underage students."

How many stories do we hear about this? Four or five really scandalous ones a year make the national news? Let's just guess that there are 50 more unknown cases for each of those. Hell, let's say it's 100 times as much. If that were true (and I don't believe it is), upwards of 500 teachers are doing something very wrong right now and have grossly abused their position of authority. That sounds like a lot doesn't it? It's certainly too many.

But let's do the math. There are roughly 1.2 million K-12 teachers in the country. 1,200,000! That means that if there are 500 doing that despicable thing (and remember, only a handful of cases get reported nationally), we're talking about .00416666667% of teachers.

Again, it's certainly too many. But to say it's "no uncommon" is a gross misrepresentation.

You might also note that when such a case becomes known, that teacher is brought up on charges and sent packing ASAP.

[airoilheadbeemerguy]

Interesting topic, is America dumbing down. I've enjoyed numerous tours in the good old USA and always meet folks of all ages for intelligent converstations. We have much the same gripes up here only we include you and us as part of the dumbing of the entire continent. Last summer I talked to several chaps from California of my age group (mid fifties) with the same laments; big biz, politicians, political correctness, special interest groups, Hollywood, 'reality' shows. I laughed and felt better knowing it is not just in my country my generation doesn't completely trust the younger and that the preceding generation 'created' many of the problems we are trying and/or failing to address today. :doh Half the time my wife doesn't trust me to put together a nourishing dinner for our four dogs.:eat As a Canadian I've long expressed to my fellow countrymen and Yanks I meet up here, "Thank God for the United States of America." Until another country becomes sufficiently organized, educated and free, I will look to America for leadership. Yes you have warts/blemishes that at times are the only things you and others see. Boy, isn't that typical of human nature! However, I find touring down south for several weeks reaffirms my faith in your abilities and capability. Continuing to question the path of your nation will help it swing back and forth and balance out over time. So please don't be too hard on yourselves! There is a reason so many people want to live in your (and ours too) country.
:clap

[OfficerImpersonator]

We spend less on education per capita than any other developed nation.

We have a segment of our population which likes to demonize teacher unions and teachers, when all the teacher unions ask for are greater commitments by society towards supporting public education. Most teachers must dip into their personal savings to buy supplies for their classes.

We borrow money from China and other creditor nations to finance tax cuts for the wealthy instead of borrowing money to improve and extend our education system.

Our corporate controlled media caters to the least common denominator with sensationalistic stories that, in the long view, mean squat (i.e. is one guy's pastor crazier than the other guy's?)

Wages for most Americans have remained stagnant over the past 20 years while costs of the staples of life (gas, milk, etc.) have soared, forcing many to work longer hours, forcing both parents to work, and/or forcing parents to have more than one job, taking them away from their families and setting the stage for electronic babysitting by Nintendo, hours spent on social networking websites like MySpace, and mindless television.

Somehow we need to make being smart cool again.

[RandallIsland]

We spend less on education per capita than any other developed nation.

...

Somehow we need to make being smart cool again.

I'll be impressed when someone besides me points out that the #1 public outlay of general funding, per capita, is the industrial prison complex and the mass incarceration of minorities.

Why don't we start there and then worry about ALL the American kids.

[sjbmw]

Something to think about.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Swl8frWSNEQ

[tessler]

I'll be impressed when someone besides me points out that the #1 public outlay of general funding, per capita, is the industrial prison complex and the mass incarceration of minorities.

Why don't we start there and then worry about ALL the American kids.

Co-pointed and duly felt.

[ian408]

I went to public school. There were some teachers who really cared and some who were
just there for the check. I don't think that's any different than today.

I do think how kids learn is different today than "back in the day". What, if any,
affect this has going forward, I don't know.

Question: Humanity is certainly a fountain of stupid and ignorant, but is this a new phenomenon? Are people more ignorant today than 10 years or 20 years ago?

I don't think so. Stupid isn't new. I'd bet people were complaining about the "dumbing down" for millennia. We all have our personal anecdotes. We all have our expectations of what metric should be used to determine an individuals intellectual ambition. But, IMHO, much of what gets said can be boiled down to, "Kids these days!" :ha

:dunno