Rendition

[JK]

:banghead For those that care -

The term rendition sounds soothing to the ear, like something from a concert. These days, it's a euphemism for the secret illegal kidnapping, transport, torture, termination, and open-ended incarceration of terrorist suspects, by our CIA, at off-shore locations and facilities.

Briefly, in 1995, terrorist Ramsey Youssef had his laptop computer siezed, by intelligence agents, in the Philippines. He was planning to splash 12 UAL and NWA B-747s, simultaneously, by the use of colloidal nitroglycerin solutions triggered by casio watch timers. Thinking that he had destroyed the hard drive of his laptop before evading capture, agents were able to reconstruct its contents.

Specifically, the hard drive not only revealed the details of Ramsey's terrorist plot, but it also provided the real time names and locations of the contacts making up his terrorist network.

Armed with this valuable windfall of information, our CIA "rolled up" Ramsey's network, the precursor to al Qaeda type operations, and re-asserting the secret American policy of Rendition that continues to this day. :banghead

FWIW


J.K. :wow

[BeemerMike]

Mmmmmm . . . sounds "political" to me. Should not be too long before this thread is "killed".

[JK]

Mmmmmm . . . sounds "political" to me. Should not be too long before this thread is "killed".

Hey Mike -

Next time our ADV Riders are doing their world tours with American passports, they might find "paybacks" to be a bitch. They, too, might be suspected of being American agents and afforded the same type of hostile hospitality that we are extending to others so suspected.

In short, spy vs. spy, once the box of Rendition is opened.


J.K. :wow

[BeemerMike]

JK - I wasn't stating an opinion on the content of your thread . . . just on how long the moderators would allow it to "live"!

Mike ;)

[Oldhway]

JK, fascinating stuff, relevant to the world we live in today, something I loved to be able ot discuss,and still not allowed here. Every time someone posts like this that chance gets further and further away. This is what I think Randy termed a test post over on the cockroach forum. Unfortunately, "testing" the system to make a point or try to snare the current Moderators in a perceived injustice is counter-productive to having a current events type of forum. Your knowledge and presentation are impressive and the subject is interesting but until the MOA forum green lights this type of discussion, we can't have it here.

So what is the purpose of your post? Exercise some restraint and work within the forum and we probably can have this discussion here some day, keep "testing" the system and I will know why someday we can't.

Nice..., brilliant strategy.

[Sue]

trolling.........

:nono

[JK]

trolling.........

:nono

Hi Sue -

Yes, you are!?

J.K. :wow

P.S. Now, please stop it.... Thanks. :thumb

[john1691]

I'm thinking if we stopped exporting TV and movies, we would be better liked throughout the world! :thumb

[JK]

J.K. lets direct this from political to discuss our World Riding tourers and our stewardship towards diplomacy.

Two situations : Irishkev who posts here was in Columbia, and riding south with a Brit. Both bikes were U.K. registered one from Ireland the other from England (which I believe is a generic European yellow square or white plate).

Their accommodation choice was tight, being no Hostels, or camp grounds were available. But discussing their situation with the locals they were allowed to stay an a small airport as long as they were NOT American. They survived their ordeal and left in the morning. But what if it was you or I tagging along ?

Next situation is similar: A Brit National and a Dane traveling very remote northern Iran. They set up a camp and some local teen riders showed up and told them in broken English it was not safe. They told them to come with them and a local family hid them in their home. They had to wait because the route they were taking had high and low security days depending on Army supply convoys heading to the outposts and the border. The low exposure day came and locals escorted them to the next safe town and house. The travelers did make it across Iran and they felt it was the safest country they ever visited. But the what if once again ?

Furthermore as US world travelers we not only have to look at our safety but we need to be good stewards and not endanger the locals wanting to help an adventurous cyclists. It is a very fine line with diplomacy we weave. But sometimes it is best to be on a motorcycle which may buy time as the enemy wonders if you are crazy or an American. That 3-10 second delay could save your life. In some cases you can use less muscles than a smile. :wave

I read somewhere that when the Native Americans attacked the wagon trains they would leave the insane alone thinking they were special or spiritual. I often wonder if being on a motorcycle in a country whose government disapproves of the US diplomacy that just maybe the cyclist is viewed the same way. Motorcycle's eliminate class, culture, and borders they should be used more often.

Hey Dawg -

One of my best friends is Prince Nabi Kiani. His grandfather was King of Persia until he was overthrown by the late Shah. Currently living in NYC, we've had many discussions about cultural dynamics in the Mid-East.

Personally, I've found the common people most charming and hospitable. They're quick to exchange photographs of children and family as they invite you into their home, or business. Likewise, in India and Africa.

However, in areas where the "political landscape" is in upheaval, all bets are off.

Specifically, take South America, for example. The Peruvian Air Force deliberately"splashed" one of our AF C-130s a couple of years ago, and the event made the news. Most Americans didn't know that our DEA and Military were conducting special operations to destroy the manufacturing of cocaine. Nor did they know that a low-level civil war is being waged against the governments in that Region.

In short, drug lords and armed revolutionaries pose at major hazard to Americans travelling through that area, because of the threat of ongoing special operations and associated undercover intel gathering. Factor in the growth and danger of M-13 drug gangs and kidnappings, and motorcycle journeys South are taken at your risk and peril.

Bottom line, the more our Nation intervenes and actively attempts to influence politics in other countries, the more our citizens are endangered while there on unrelated agendas.

J.K. :wow

[535is]

Two situations : Irishkev who posts here was in Columbia, and riding south with a Brit. Both bikes were U.K. registered one from Ireland the other from England (which I believe is a generic European yellow square or white plate).

Their accommodation choice was tight, being no Hostels, or camp grounds were available. But discussing their situation with the locals they were allowed to stay an a small airport as long as they were NOT American. They survived their ordeal and left in the morning. But what if it was you or I tagging along?
Dude, you are on your own. I'm pleading 'Canadian'. First, I'll point out that the "WI" plate on my bike is from "WInnipeg, dontcha' know?" And since a Wisconsin accent is virtually indistinguishable from an Ontario accent, I'll go on to say that I'm not really from Manitoba, but from "dat place dat begins and ends in 'O', eh?" Hopefully, they'll think 'Ontario' and not 'Ohio'. :whistle

[JK]

Dude, you are on your own. I'm pleading 'Canadian'. First, I'll point out that the "WI" plate on my bike is from "WInnipeg, dontcha' know?" And since a Wisconsin accent is virtually indistinguishable from an Ontario accent, I'll go on to say that I'm not really from Manitoba, but from "dat place dat begins and ends in 'O', eh?" Hopefully, they'll think 'Ontario' and not 'Ohio'. :whistle

Hey iS -

Once you leave our borders, THEY keep track of who you are.

Specifically, each time you call, each time you log-on, each time you e-mail, and each time you make a wire transfer or hit an ATM, U.S. intelligence agencies are "mining" and tracking your activities for "data."

Domestically, our other allies are probably doing the same, by proxy.

In short, the trail you ride and leave has more to do with electronics than it does with motorcycles.

IMHO

J.K. :wow

[BeemerMike]

Bottom line, the more our Nation intervenes and actively attempts to influence politics in other countries, the more our citizens are endangered while there on unrelated agendas.

Before you make your world travel plans, you can go the Department of State web page and check out the country(ies) to where you want to go. If there is a problem, or danger, with U.S. citizens traveling to a particular country or region, you will see it there. If despite a "Travel Advisory" your spirit for "adventure riding" takes you to there anyway, don't be surprised if you get your adventure.

You can bitch and complain all you want about how U.S. foreign policy is cramping your motorcycle style, but there are plenty of places in the world for a U.S. citizen to go motorcycle riding with reasonable security and safety. Pick one of those. I'd love to sail to Cuba before I die, but I'm not going until the travel embargo is lifted and the political situation there changes. My Chilean finacee on the other hand, can go to Cuba any time she wants (and has). She rubs it in to me what I am missing. Oh well . . . maybe someday. Until then, I'll just sail the rest of the Caribbean. :wave

[JK]

Before you make your world travel plans, you can go the Department of State web page and check out the country(ies) to where you want to go. If there is a problem, or danger, with U.S. citizens traveling to a particular country or region, you will see it there. If despite a "Travel Advisory" your spirit for "adventure riding" takes you to there anyway, don't be surprised if you get your adventure.

You can bitch and complain all you want about how U.S. foreign policy is cramping your motorcycle style, but there are plenty of places in the world for a U.S. citizen to go motorcycle riding with reasonable security and safety. Pick one of those. I'd love to sail to Cuba before I die, but I'm not going until the travel embargo is lifted and the political situation there changes. My Chilean finacee on the other hand, can go to Cuba any time she wants (and has). She rubs it in to me what I am missing. Oh well . . . maybe someday. Until then, I'll just sail the rest of the Caribbean. :wave

Hey Mike -

Looking forward to Cuba, myself. Once our embargo is lifted, it opens up the entire Caribbean to sailing and powerboats, not to mention the island.

A friend of mine, Jorge Ferrer, grandfather started Cubana Airlines many years ago, and his Dad hijacked his own airliner to Miami in the early 60s. Now a retired airline pilot, I hope to get a cook's tour, with him on his Harley and me on my BMW, in a year, or two, to come.

See you in Havana....

J.K. :wow

P.S. One of the great untold stories is that under the Gulf of Mexico lies a reserve of oil that puts the entire Mid-East to shame. (Per the former head of Geology at the U. of Wisconsin AND Colorado College.) That's why all the political hassles to get things unravelled.

[hlothery]

Hey Mike -

Looking forward to Cuba, myself. Once our embargo is lifted, it opens up the entire Caribbean to sailing and powerboats, not to mention the island.

A friend of mine, Jorge Ferrer, grandfather started Cubana Airlines many years ago, and his Dad hijacked his own airliner to Miami in the early 60s. Now a retired airline pilot, I hope to get a cook's tour, with him on his Harley and me on my BMW, in a year, or two, to come.

See you in Havana....

J.K. :wow

P.S. One of the great untold stories is that under the Gulf of Mexico lies a reserve of oil that puts the entire Mid-East to shame. (Per the former head of Geology at the U. of Wisconsin AND Colorado College.) That's why all the political hassles to get thing unravelled.

My dearly departed Mom told me her stories of taking a cruise ship to Havana in the pre-Castro years. She loved it. Wouldn't that be a nice sail from Key West, though?

[BeemerMike]

My dearly departed Mom told me her stories of taking a cruise ship to Havana in the pre-Castro years. She loved it. Wouldn't that be a nice sail from Key West, though?

About 90 miles, south-by-southeast, I think . . . wind off the port beam. Cast off after dinner and arrive the next day in time for afternoon cocktails and cigars.

[snoone]

For anyone interested in motorcycle books about Cuba, the book was called Mi Moto Fidel, Christopher Baker's account of his three-month romp through Cuba on a fire-engine red BMW Bike.

[hlothery]

About 90 miles, south-by-southeast, I think . . . wind off the port beam. Cast off after dinner and arrive the next day in time for afternoon cocktails and cigars.

A beam reach is my favorite point of sail.......I'm in! Now all we need is a topsail schooner......

[BeemerMike]

A beam reach is my favorite point of sail.......I'm in! Now all we need is a topsail schooner......

OK . . . but I'M not climbing the mast to set the tops'l! ;)

[From MARS]

OK . . . but I'M not climbing the mast to set the tops'l! ;)

No guts. No glory!:bolt

When I was in Key West living aboard our Southern Cross 31, we would sail across the Gulf Stream down to Cuban waters looking for refugees. That was back in 94-95. Many sailors went in to Havana, but we didn't want to risk loosing our boat to one government or the other, therefore, I'm with you. When the embargo gets lifted, I'd love to go there.

My take on the reason for the embargo still being in effect, is that the embargo is largely to protect the tourist business in South Florida. That may be an oversimplification, but I have no doubt that it plays a part.

Tom

[JK]

My dearly departed Mom told me her stories of taking a cruise ship to Havana in the pre-Castro years. She loved it. Wouldn't that be a nice sail from Key West, though?

As Parrot Heads are fond of saying, "Changes in Latitudes, Changes in Attitudes!"

Cheers...

J.K. :wow

[JK]

"is", I am going to act normal and pass as a Newfoundlander. :thumb For moto travel I have a 1970's Spanish plate and one from Cuba for real emergency travel in unfriendly lands. Sometimes a great offense is the best defense. Now I have to brush up on my Spanish it might come in handy with a Star 9mm cocked next my temple.

Hubert gave me a great tip. He has a NY State vanity plate that says ADVTUR. He was in the graphic arts field so he made his own bike tag for camouflaging the fact he is an American while traveling in unfriendly nations. This idea made a nice fake French registered bike, and he speaks French to add to the fasode. BTW French tags are yellow. I guess they show up better retreating. :)

The main issue while touring is the bike numbers must match and at border crossing they spend more time with bike numbers than anything else. Fortunately they never notice the difference in his NY tag. His real plate is stored in his luggage secret compartment. He even photocopied IDs and insurance forms for document protection. This is so if he is stopped then he will not put the real documents in danger while someone is playing police or military as an actor. The only time one needs the real deal is in an accident. But having a fist full of dollars or some pretty euros might sway the eyes. I like Italian Lira or Old Swedish Króna notes that should have been turned in 15 years ago.

J.K. I feel the whole Middle East problems today started with Iran wanting to privatize / nationalize their oil that were English fields in about 1951. The USA stuck a terrible puppet in their government who gave rise to the Islamic political parties we see today. All the Iranians I know want to be our friends and like Americans. However I do think their wonderful orchards need to be pruned to give rise to better fruit. I am only making this as an observation not having full historical details.

Mean while back to adventure travel. Maybe we should travel at night with the lights off ?

As Hemmingway would say, "Old Man, we'll see..."

J.K. :wow

P.S. Not wanting to make a gaff responding to "clap on/clap off," and get harped on by some lurking Melvillian sea mammal. :fight

[BeemerMike]

My take on the reason for the embargo still being in effect, is that the embargo is largely to protect the tourist business in South Florida. That may be an oversimplification, but I have no doubt that it plays a part.

:huh

You need to go down to Cafe Versailles in Miami and see if you still think that's part of the reason.

[JK]

Seriously, Dawg -

Historically, the "problem" stems from the fall and collapse of the Ottoman Empire, and the secularization of modern day Turkey, by Mustafa Ataturk.

Basically, the Islamic Ottomans could not compete against the Western powers, commercially or militarilly, due the perceived limitations and rigidity of religious rule.
Kinda like our MOA.

Anyway, the League of Nations attempted to address this power vacuum by establishing Western Protectorships and spheres of influence.

In short, attempts to impose Western political and economic values hasn't worked, even after a hundred years. :violin

FWIW

J.K. :wow

[hlothery]

Seriously, Dawg -

Historically, the "problem" stems from the fall and collapse of the Ottoman Empire, and the secularization of modern day Turkey, by Mustafa Ataturk.

Basically, the Islamic Ottomans could not compete against the Western powers, commercially or militarilly, due the perceived limitations and rigidity of religious rule.
Kinda like our MOA.

Anyway, the League of Nations attempted to address this power vaccum by establishing Western Protectorships and spheres of influence.

In short, attempts to impose Western political and economic values hasn't worked, even after a hundred years. :violin

FWIW

J.K. :wow

Very clever........let's reef the mains'l and head on out. :wave

[lamble]

Seriously, Dawg -

Historically, the "problem" stems from the fall and collapse of the Ottoman Empire, and the secularization of modern day Turkey, by Mustafa Ataturk.

Basically, the Islamic Ottomans could not compete against the Western powers, commercially or militarilly, due the perceived limitations and rigidity of religious rule.
Kinda like our MOA.

Anyway, the League of Nations attempted to address this power vaccum by establishing Western Protectorships and spheres of influence.

In short, attempts to impose Western political and economic values hasn't worked, even after a hundred years. :violin

FWIW



J.K. :wow

Too short term. You'll need to dig much further back in the history books to find the "cause".

[JK]

Too short term. You'll need to dig much further back in the history books to find the "cause".

Dear Lambie -

How far back would make you "happy"?

1,000 B.C. and the start of Zoroastrianism, or the time of Cyrus/Darius/Alexander the Greats, or the rise of Islam and the Crusades, or the Mongul Hordes, and finally, the Zionism movement?

Seriously, if you're looking for a "western mandate" to occupy and civilize this region, the vacuum created by the fall of the Ottoman Empire fits the ticket.

J.K. :wow

P.S. Especially, in one hundred words or less..., when kidnapping and assassination come into play. :hungover

[lamble]

Dear Lambie -

How far back would make you "happy"?

1,000 B.C. and the start of Zoroastrianism, or the time of Cyrus/Darius/Alexander the Greats, or the rise of Islam and the Crusades, or the Mongul Hordes, and finally, the Zionism movement?

Seriously, if you're looking for a "western mandate" to occupy and civilize this region, the vacuum created by the fall of the Ottoman Empire fits the ticket.

J.K. :wow

P.S. Especially, in one hundred words or less..., when kidnapping and assassination come into play. :hungover

Hey Jayzee kayzee wayzee, (seems somewhat belittling doesn't it? There are two ways to appear "superior" than someone else, and the way chosen by those incapable of being better because of wisdom is to belittle others...rise above it!)

It's been evolutionary distrust. It's been tribal, it's been a long history.

A written mandate to westernise the region, or a intention to destroy the infidels (apply that both ways) extends far earlier than the concept of a "Western society as is now understood.

Attaturk is regarded as the Father of Modern Turkey, as you know and a Turkey many would regard as more western in outlook. The Fall of the Ottoman Empire certainly left a void, but it was a power struggle, not neccessarily a desire to be more western that was the crux of the military revolution. The supression of religious beliefs and a secular governance was as much a way of "managing" a potentially volatile populace, as it was an enlightened political goal.

You don't however explain how the change in Turkey relates to Israel and Palestine, Lebanon and Syria, the Shia, Shiite , Kurds, the House of Saud etc...
I don't think you can justifiably lay all of the Middle East's woes at the door of Turkey, but I'm open to persuassive arguements.
Just keep it on the straight and narrow and resist the urge to be less than polite.

[aerialfilm1]

: For those that care -


Briefly, in 1995, terrorist Ramsey Youssef had his laptop computer siezed, by intelligence agents, in the Philippines.


I love Cat Stevens no matter what he calls himself these days.

Sorry all. It was that kind of lunch......:wave

[Rapid_Roy]

I love Cat Stevens no matter what he calls himself these days.

Sorry all. It was that kind of lunch......:wave
So......you've been smiling lately, thinkin' about the good things to come?

[JK]

Hey Jayzee kayzee wayzee, (seems somewhat belittling doesn't it? There are two ways to appear "superior" than someone else, and the way chosen by those incapable of being better because of wisdom is to belittle others...rise above it!)

It's been evolutionary distrust. It's been tribal, it's been a long history.

A written mandate to westernise the region, or a intention to destroy the infidels (apply that both ways) extends far earlier than the concept of a "Western society as is now understood.

Attaturk is regarded as the Father of Modern Turkey, as you know and a Turkey many would regard as more western in outlook. The Fall of the Ottoman Empire certainly left a void, but it was a power struggle, not neccessarily a desire to be more western that was the crux of the military revolution. The supression of religious beliefs and a secular governance was as much a way of "managing" a potentially volatile populace, as it was an enlightened political goal.

You don't however explain how the change in Turkey relates to Israel and Palestine, Lebanon and Syria, the Shia, Shiite , Kurds, the House of Saud etc...
I don't think you can justifiably lay all of the Middle East's woes at the door of Turkey, but I'm open to persuassive arguements.
Just keep it on the straight and narrow and resist the urge to be less than polite.

Hi Lambie -

If I had to point fingers, the problems in the Mid-East come down to demographics, politics/religion, and economics.

1) Demographics. Explosive Islamic population growth fueled by traditional values for large families. Arid climate that doesn't produce enough food to feed projected population.

2) Politics/Religion. Zionism, Christian, Jewish, Persian, Arab, Hindu, Kurd, Taliban, Terrorism, former Soviet Republics, and American/EU/Russian/Chinese pressures. Advances in chemical and biological weapons, and delivery systems, have global ramifications.

3) Economics. Oil windfall has fueled the destruction of traditional lifestyles and expectations. Superpower competition and conflicts (US/EU, Russia, China) have militarized region. Concentration of wealth has failed to create a stable middle class.

But hey, debated and discusion of world history and current conflicts are not encouraged on this Forum, so that's why these issues weren't addressed.

As orginally stated at the start of this thread, the American policy of the Right of Rendition has direct implications and consequences for all BMW ADV Riders, and therefore falls under the restricted rules of this Forum.

FWIW

J.K. :wow

[rik]

So......you've been smiling lately, thinkin' about the good things to come?

Nice rendition Roy.

[BeemerMike]

As orginally stated at the start of this thread, the American policy of the Right of Rendition has direct implications and consequences for all BMW ADV Riders, and therefore falls under the restricted rules of this Forum.

Pretty weak "motorcycle-related" basis to get into a discussion of geo-politics and U.S. foreign policy. Nice try though . . . IMHO. :nono

[lamble]

Pretty weak "motorcycle-related" basis to get into a discussion of geo-politics and U.S. foreign policy. Nice try though . . . IMHO. :nono

If you travel outside of the USA, then politics are an issue for riders and travellers.

My experiences in China, Turkey, North Africa, Eastern Europe and the fringes of the Middle East are that individuals are smart enough, on a one to one basis, to differentiate between state politics and an individuals nationality. It always helps if you can say, Bush, Blair, Thatcher, Clinton or whoever is in power, then shrug, showing there's little you can do about them, that universal language.
In most of these countries there's little they can do about their leaders too. It's a shared experience and breaks the ice. Of course being on a bike helps immensely.

Conversely, would I broadcast I was an American (if I were)? No I would not.
Leave the smallest footprint when you travel and remember people are just different, not better or worse than you are. Any idea that someone is less civilised because they don't have a DVD, should be left at home, because your DVD wouldn't be any use without a socket and probably couldn't capture, kill and skin a monkey to feed your family...

Oh yes JK, you don't get it with the Lambie do you...it makes you look like a prat.

[JK]

FWIW -

As Chavez sends tanks to the Venezuelan/Columbian border, due to Columbia's recent killing of a rebel FARC leader, ADV Riders transitioning that area need to be careful.

Clearly, not only are the native restless, but so are their leaders.

In short, don't settle for carbon fibre when you can have kevlar. :bolt

Ride safe....

J.K. :wow

[lamble]

Travelling down the Pacific Coast shouldn't be a problem then.

And coming back up the Atlantic side, fly the bike from Caracas or Maracaibo to Panama. That should avoid any border issues.