Do not downshift..... do not

[torags]

Repeat... Do not downshift... again, again... While kicking oneself in the butt ... then repeat, repeat.. repeat


New input transmission shaft $2,000 +

:sick

[John Brase]

Yikes!!

But... Caused by downshifting? Tell me more.

John

[BubbaZanetti]

Yikes!!

But... Caused by downshifting? Tell me more.

John

+1

with a combination of big twin motor, rev matching and planning stops, i hardly use the brakes. i don't want to break my bike!

[torags]

I have a bad habit. I downshift coming into a turn like I do with my manual trans cage.

That puts extreme stress coming in then add digging out of apex, hmmm

Repeat... Do not downshift... again, again... While kicking oneself in the butt ... then repeat, repeat.. repeat

[rkasal]

Repeat... Do not downshift... again, again... While kicking oneself in the butt ... then repeat, repeat.. repeat


New input transmission shaft $2,000 +

:sick

Do you blip the throttle to match the downshift or just downshift?

[Rotten]

As an inveterate downshifter, a friend once pointed out to me that brake linings or pads are a lot cheaper than a transmission.:nono

[dduelin]

That's nuts. Downshifting is part of riding a motorcycle. Was the spline lube done on time?

[jingdog]

I agree downshifting is a normal function. If done right it should not be an issue. Now you probably shouldnt be downshifting IN a turn because that might cause control issues. But it shouldnt hurt the transmission per se.

[nrpetersen]

Bad downshifting is a clutch life issue not a transmission/spline issue.

[kreinke]

I don't know about the RS but my 1150R loves to be left in 4th gear for all but the tightest cornering. Good engine braking coming in, good launch out. On a twisty road I forget the shifting and ride her like a big scooter.I'm a pretty smooth rider in the corners..I practice The Pace (http:/www.motorcyclistonline.com/flashback/122_0911_the_pace_nick_ienatsch/)

[cjack]

As an inveterate downshifter, a friend once pointed out to me that brake linings or pads are a lot cheaper than a transmission.:nono

BMW once pointed that out to one of their race car drivers...can't remember, but back sometime in the '70s.

[JimMoore]

Sorry to hear that, but I don't think it was caused by downshifting. I think it sounds like a classic "transmission misalignment causing clutch splines to slowly devour the input shaft." Also, I'm sorry to say it is proablaby gonna happen every 30K miles until you sell the bike or replace the transmission.

Sorry,

[baldwithglasses]

Anton, what's your take?

lkchris, any thoughts?

[AntonLargiader]

On what? The guy just keeps saying "do not downshift." Heck, you upshift, you gotta downshift at some point. That's my take on it.

[Belquar]

Methinks this is how the old never use the front brake myth got started as well.

[BeemerMike]

As an inveterate downshifter, a friend once pointed out to me that brake linings or pads are a lot cheaper than a transmission.:nono

:thumb

[JimVonBaden1]

On what? The guy just keeps saying "do not downshift." Heck, you upshift, you gotta downshift at some point. That's my take on it.

Right! :thumb

Jim :brow

[torags]

Sorry to hear that, but I don't think it was caused by downshifting. I think it sounds like a classic "transmission misalignment causing clutch splines to slowly devour the input shaft." Also, I'm sorry to say it is proablaby gonna happen every 30K miles until you sell the bike or replace the transmission.

Sorry,

Now that's the most intelligent answer posted.

This would be a manufacturers defect; Jim do you know of any successful claims on the manufacturer for this?

I haven't spoken to the tech yet, I'll post when I pick up the bike

Hmmm... I haven't noticed any clutch chatter. If misaligned that could result. The throw out bearing would be toast.

[DarrylRi]

In 500k miles I've never worn out a clutch -- and I've put about 100k miles on three of them. I've also never worn out a clutch in a car. (When we put a rebuilt motor in our '86 Mazda 626 with 180k miles on it, the mechanic asked if we wanted to put the old clutch back in as it was less than half worn.)

Just as you should practice your braking skills, you should practice your shifting -- especially downshifting. You should be able to downshift even into first (at an appropriate speed, of course) while riding smoothly, without chirping the rear tire.

If you ever take one of Reg Pridmore's CLASSes and get to ride on the back of his bike, you'll notice that you can't feel him shift gears, he is ultra smooth.

[BeemerMike]

If you ever take one of Reg Pridmore's CLASSes and get to ride on the back of his bike, you'll notice that you can't feel him shift gears, he is ultra smooth.

I did once. It felt like his K-bike had a CVT in it! Amazing!

[torags]

In 500k miles I've never worn out a clutch -- and I've put about 100k miles on three of them. I've also never worn out a clutch in a car. (When we put a rebuilt motor in our '86 Mazda 626 with 180k miles on it, the mechanic asked if we wanted to put the old clutch back in as it was less than half worn.)

Just as you should practice your braking skills, you should practice your shifting -- especially downshifting. You should be able to downshift even into first (at an appropriate speed, of course) while riding smoothly, without chirping the rear tire.

If you ever take one of Reg Pridmore's CLASSes and get to ride on the back of his bike, you'll notice that you can't feel him shift gears, he is ultra smooth.

Give me a break. I didn't ask for your advice on how to operate a motorcycle which I have been doing since 1965 (dirt & hardtop).

Frankly I'm not interest in your car history since individuals driving vary so much.

It might occur to you, I know more about cars/motos than you do.

end of rant.

[Red100RT]

How to shift your beemer: (1) Short shift between 1-2 & 2-3 on the way up and never downshift while rolling at any speed but a slow walking speed on the way down between 3-2 & 2-1. (2) On the 6 speed trans forget about 6th gear especially with the extra weight of a passenger and or luggage on board. (3) To help improve clutch, throttle, and shifter co-ordination try riding with the choke control set on the fast idle position. By practicing these steps I'll wager your trans input shafts will remain as new at 100K miles provided there is good engine/trans alignment which I believe there most likely always is. Input shaft splines do not like shock simple as that so if you want to pop that clutch and ride like a fool get a ninja.:doh

[Motor31]

Downshifting puts less stress than upshifting and opening the throttle. Far more HP in acceleration than deceleration. Downshifting won't hurt the transmission, assuming of course that the person doing the shifting is actually using the clutch during the shift process.

[srb]

Give me a break. I didn't ask for your advice on how to operate a motorcycle which I have been doing since 1965 (dirt & hardtop).

Frankly I'm not interest in your car history since individuals driving vary so much.

It might occur to you, I know more about cars/motos than you do.

end of rant.


You're the one who started a thread with 'do not downshift'. Just sayin'.

[billpierce]

If I can't down shift my BMW without breaking it, I'll sell it and by something more durable.

Transmission miss alignment is well documented and most likely the cause. IMHO.

PS If you don't want opinions then don't post.

[bikerfish1100]

c'mon guys, lighten up. Methinks his Zanax script ran out.

[lgarza]

Give me a break. I didn't ask for your advice on how to operate a motorcycle which I have been doing since 1965 (dirt & hardtop).

Frankly I'm not interest in your car history since individuals driving vary so much.

It might occur to you, I know more about cars/motos than you do.

end of rant.

Idon't understand what was you posting about, but it implied that you cause a damage that cost $2k, for downshifting. One might think two things, there is something wrong with your transmission of you don't downshift correctly.

I downshift all the way to 1st gear, blip the throttle, with practice becomes natural and smooth. I have to say it takes some practice to master down-shifting while breaking.
even my 140k miles civic, I bought it with 80kmiles, and I haven't had the need to change break paths, and the clutch is just as healthy.

lgg.

[BeemerMike]

PS If you don't want opinions then don't post.

Or, be a little more specific about your "problem".

[torags]

Hey Jim you hit the nail on the head.

It was transmission misalignment. It is a manufacturer defect. BTW I have 28,000 miles on the bike.

The tech told me he has had a few of them and it took a long time for them (BMW) to figure it out. The tech said it would never happen again since he changed the casting.

I wondered how the tech could order parts before he took it apart. I'm going to try to get BMW to pay for all or some of it.

Thanks for your response Jim Moore

I posted to ventilate, not to ask advice on how to operate a motorcycle, read the words. BTW I was wrong about the downshifting, thank goodness - my habit can continue.

[kbasa]

If you mean "don't throw it down a gear and snap the clutch out so the bikes gets all loopy", yeah. But properly matching rpm and smoothly engaging the next gear down isn't a problem at all.

[BeemerMike]

I posted to ventilate, not to ask advice on how to operate a motorcycle, read the words. BTW I was wrong about the downshifting, thank goodness - my habit can continue.

I'm not sure what your "downshifting habit" into/in corners really is. Hopefully you are not downshifting to slow the bike down for a corner instead of using the brakes (although a little throttle roll-off to bleed a little speed off is OK). As somebody said earlier, that's what the brakes are for. :bikes

[OfficerImpersonator]

Give me a break. I didn't ask for your advice on how to operate a motorcycle which I have been doing since 1965 (dirt & hardtop).

Frankly I'm not interest in your car history since individuals driving vary so much.

It might occur to you, I know more about cars/motos than you do.

end of rant.

Dude - you're the one who posted that your shifting cost you $2K in repairs. Don't get mad at us when we ask you if perhaps you're not operating your bike correctly.

You came here asking for advice. Don't shoot the messenger if you don't like the free advice you came here to get.

[Wallowa]

I'm not sure what your "downshifting habit" into/in corners really is. Hopefully you are not downshifting to slow the bike down for a corner instead of using the brakes (although a little throttle roll-off to bleed a little speed off is OK). As somebody said earlier, that's what the brakes are for. :bikes

Comments are not aimed at BeemerMike but the concept of not using your engine compression to slow bike..

Geee Wheeezzz...[insert much stronger invective]...I really could care less how anyone rides their bike...that is their business...but don't shut the door on riders that downshift and brake separately or concurrently to slow down...a lot of fine racers and road riders set up their bikes for corners or surface changes by using both the transmission and brakes...to say that brakes are cheaper than transmissions is one of those "when did you stop beating your wife" meaningless comments...

Good grief folks take a wider view...like Anton said the transmission has to be downshifted at some point...and excellence in riding would dictate that you use ALL the tools in the box...brakes and transmission to name only two..

Ps...If my BMW will not hold up under decelerating via downshifting...I need to get a different bike..Hey, anybody what to discuss double-clutching or shifting without using the clutch?:bow

[OfficerImpersonator]

Comments are not aimed at BeemerMike but the concept of not using your engine compression to slow bike..

Geee Wheeezzz...[insert much stronger invective]...I really could care less how anyone rides their bike...that is their business...but don't shut the door on riders that downshift and brake separately or concurrently to slow down...a lot of fine racers and road riders set up their bikes for corners or surface changes by using both the transmission and brakes...to say that brakes are cheaper than transmissions is one of those "when did you stop beating your wife" meaningless comments...

Good grief folks take a wider view...like Anton said the transmission has to be downshifted at some point...and excellence in riding would dictate that you use ALL the tools in the box...brakes and transmission to name only two..

Ps...If my BMW will not hold up under decelerating via downshifting...I need to get a different bike..Hey, anybody what to discuss double-clutching or shifting without using the clutch?:bow

Downshifting is a valuable speed management tool - but you should be careful under what circumstances you use it.

For example, when using engine compression to slow a bike, your rear brake light is not activated. Vehicles behind you have no way of knowing you're slowing down. My RT has tremendous engine braking power, and I can slow from 70 mph to a crawl using only engine compression very quickly - but a driver behind me would have no idea I was slowing down unless they were looking for clues other than my brake light.

So - even if engine braking is your preferred option, you might consider lightly activating your brake light in order to warn drivers behind you that you're slowing/stopping.

[rkasal]

All I want to know is if he ever parked on a sidewalk, threw paper on the same sidewalk, and then ran over flowers.


:D :stick

[BubbaZanetti]

Downshifting is a valuable speed management tool - but you should be careful under what circumstances you use it.

For example, when using engine compression to slow a bike, your rear brake light is not activated. Vehicles behind you have no way of knowing you're slowing down. My RT has tremendous engine braking power, and I can slow from 70 mph to a crawl using only engine compression very quickly - but a driver behind me would have no idea I was slowing down unless they were looking for clues other than my brake light.

So - even if engine braking is your preferred option, you might consider lightly activating your brake light in order to warn drivers behind you that you're slowing/stopping.


without a doubt! i usually just pulse the handbrake lightly while downshifting, just to get people's attention......

[BeemerMike]

Comments are not aimed at BeemerMike but the concept of not using your engine compression to slow bike...

I never said not to ever use engine compression to slow down a bike. In fact, I said just the opposite.

My point was not to use DOWNSHIFTING and engine compression braking as a SUBSTITUTE for using your wheel brakes when you have to really slow down (and if you have to downshift for a corner to get the correct corner speed, then you are probably in a situation of having to really slow down). If you are riding along at a good clip in 5th gear and need to lose a lot of speed for a corner, and as you approach a corner you downshift to 4th, let the clutch out to slow the bike some, then downshift to 3rd, let out the clutch to slow the bike more, and so on without using the wheel brakes, then IMHO that is bad riding technique. You should be using the wheel brakes to slow the bike down and downshifting to the gear you will need to accelerate through and out of the corner. The wheel brakes are much easier to modulate than trying to balance the the clutch and throttle as weight transfers to the front and unloads the rear wheel (which of course causes some potential problems with engine compression braking).

However, if you are riding along and need to bleed off a little speed for a corner, then sure, roll off the throttle a little and let the engine slow the bike down.

Of course, it's everyone's own butt and bike on the line out there, so downshift and engine brake all you want to! :D

[Motorcyclist]

If I can't down shift my BMW without breaking it, I'll sell it and by something more durable.

Transmission miss alignment is well documented and most likely the cause. IMHO.




+1, good point Bill, and it is what I'm wrestling with right now.

2004 R1150R.......55,000 touring miles.........fragged bearing in the transmission carrying the input shaft..........dry, severely worn splines on clutch portion of input shaft necessitating clutch plate replacement...........experienced rider who uses appropriate level of engine braking when riding.

Dealer and I noticed that the splines were bone dry, most likely little or no lube straight from the factory. I dunno which failure came first (transmission bearing or clutch splines), but I can surmise it is a misalignment issue, unless no spline lube from the factory was the main culprit. On a related note, the fiber part of the clutch plate had plenty of meat on it when removed, so no clutch abuse. As expected, BMW denied any warranty or goodwill coverage even though the bike was barely 3 years old, and the parts that failed had no requirement (or expectation) to be regularly serviced.

As it so happens, I was planning to purchase a new ride for this spring, but it is doubtful that it will be another BMW. I'm not trying to be a hater of the bikes, I enjoy their power characteristics, and the "feel" of the chasis, but I'm not too fond of the company itself in relation to their quality control or treatment of the customer.

YMMV.

[torags]

+1, good point Bill, and it is what I'm wrestling with right now.

2004 R1150R.......55,000 touring miles.........fragged bearing in the transmission carrying the input shaft..........dry, severely worn splines on clutch portion of input shaft necessitating clutch plate replacement...........experienced rider who uses appropriate level of engine braking when riding.

Dealer and I noticed that the splines were bone dry, most likely little or no lube straight from the factory. I dunno which failure came first (transmission bearing or clutch splines), but I can surmise it is a misalignment issue, unless no spline lube from the factory was the main culprit. On a related note, the fiber part of the clutch plate had plenty of meat on it when removed, so no clutch abuse. As expected, BMW denied any warranty or goodwill coverage even though the bike was barely 3 years old, and the parts that failed had no requirement (or expectation) to be regularly serviced.

As it so happens, I was planning to purchase a new ride for this spring, but it is doubtful that it will be another BMW. I'm not trying to be a hater of the bikes, I enjoy their power characteristics, and the "feel" of the chasis, but I'm not too fond of the company itself in relation to their quality control or treatment of the customer.

YMMV.


It was transmission misalignment. It is a manufacturer defect. BTW I have 28,000 miles on the bike 2004 R1150RS.

The tech told me he has had a few of them and it took a long time for them (BMW) to figure it out. The tech said it would never happen again since he changed the casting.

I wondered how the tech could order parts before he took it apart. I'm going to try to get BMW to pay for all or some of it.

Consider having it fixed and suing them in small claims court. A company who charges a premium for their product & service should be held to a higher standard.

In my case, I will request with certified mail and if they don't respond I'll serve them. I'm not going to play with this, let the judge make a decision since we have a dispute.

[Motorcyclist]

It was transmission misalignment. It is a manufacturer defect. BTW I have 28,000 miles on the bike 2004 R1150RS.

The tech told me he has had a few of them and it took a long time for them (BMW) to figure it out. The tech said it would never happen again since he changed the casting.

I wondered how the tech could order parts before he took it apart. I'm going to try to get BMW to pay for all or some of it.

Consider having it fixed and suing them in small claims court. A company who charges a premium for their product & service should be held to a higher standard.

In my case, I will request with certified mail and if they don't respond I'll serve them. I'm not going to play with this, let the judge make a decision since we have a dispute.


Please let me know how you make out. I have a formal letter in to them as well, and am awaiting a response. The day I see a pig fly, is the exact date that I expect to receive a reply :D

[torags]

Yeah really.

I think its prudent to send a letter with return receipt, so if you need to prove its delivery you can.

Generally mention a reasonable period for a response (10days?) and if they don't respond, serve them. It's then past you being a gentleman

You have to be damaged (out of pocket). That's why I'm paying for it tomorrow on pick up, then we can dance.

Good luck.

Rags

[Andy VH]

My 94 RS has 127,000+ miles on it and I am an avid "downshifter", which likely explains why I have only replaced the front brake pads twice and rears once. Also, I am a very effective "braker" so I do know how to really use my brakes. I agree with others, that it is FAR more an issue of maintainance and technique.

In those 127,000+ miles I have had the tranny out four times, twice for warranty issues, twice for clutch work, and I do almost all my own work. BMW NA gave me a new, in the box, 96 spec tranny at 60,000 miles and it is going stronger than ever.

To each his/her own style, but I will continue to downshift as I have done, especially when I am riding my "pace" and in the flow of the back roads and twisties.

[cjack]

Call BMW customer service. Carefully explain the problem with your BMW, the fix, and the cost you incurred. Ask for warranty consideration and note that you have maintained the motorcycle as per the owners manual. Name the dealer(s) you have had do the maintenance (not a prerequsite, but almost always results in a favorable result when the warranty time/mileage has expired). Encourage them to call those dealers and the repairing dealer and have the dealer explain the manufacturing defect to them (they will make these calls anyway).
I have known this to result in compensation from BMW.

[Motorcyclist]

Call BMW customer service. Carefully explain the problem with your BMW, the fix, and the cost you incurred. Ask for warranty consideration and note that you have maintained the motorcycle as per the owners manual. Name the dealer(s) you have had do the maintenance (not a prerequsite, but almost always results in a favorable result when the warranty time/mileage has expired). Encourage them to call those dealers and the repairing dealer and have the dealer explain the manufacturing defect to them (they will make these calls anyway).
I have known this to result in compensation from BMW.

Thanks for the advice cjack, and in my case, that has all been done. I have the old parts, and even the oil that was drained out of the transmission (BMW hypoid gear oil). I have offered to have them inspect the parts (in my presence), as did the dealer when the bike was in the shop. My family has a 45 year relationship with the dealership owner, so I believe they fought as much as they could for me. We'll see what happens. As has been said before, any product can fail, but how the company deals with the failure determines their true organizational character and whether or not a customer will do business with them again. Having been around BMW's since 1970, I have a pretty good idea of how they will deal with this unless their hand is forced.

[PGlaves]

A brief technical note. Brand new precise splines keep the clutch disk centered in use. As splines wear slop develops in the fit of the splines. So pull the clutch lever with the bike in gear and stationary, releasing the clutch, and gravity can cause the clutch disk to drop slightly off center. Then as soon as the disk is again grasped by the pressure plate/clutch cover it can remain slightly uncentered. This exerts incresed radial loading on the input shaft front bearing. So worn splines can cause or accelerate front bearing failure.

Whether the cause of the spline wear is angular misalignment, radial misalignment, or lack of lubrication - I would suspect the spline wear led to the bearing failure in the case cited above.

[JimMoore]

My new thing is downshifting and braking a the same time. It feels really cool on the rare occasion that you do it right.

[deilenberger]

If you mean "don't throw it down a gear and snap the clutch out so the bikes gets all loopy", yeah. But properly matching rpm and smoothly engaging the next gear down isn't a problem at all.Yes it is fine - and I was sort of curious on a motorcycle transmission how you can shift it without ever downshifting.. is there some magic here I'm missing.. my motorcycle transmissions are sequential - 1-N-2-3-4-5-6, 6-5-4-3-2-N-1 Somehow I can't figure out how to get from 6th to 1st without downshifting (color me slow today..:blush )

[Motorcyclist]

A brief technical note. Brand new precise splines keep the clutch disk centered in use. As splines wear slop develops in the fit of the splines. So pull the clutch lever with the bike in gear and stationary, releasing the clutch, and gravity can cause the clutch disk to drop slightly off center. Then as soon as the disk is again grasped by the pressure plate/clutch cover it can remain slightly uncentered. This exerts incresed radial loading on the input shaft front bearing. So worn splines can cause or accelerate front bearing failure.

Whether the cause of the spline wear is angular misalignment, radial misalignment, or lack of lubrication - I would suspect the spline wear led to the bearing failure in the case cited above.

Thanks for your assessment Paul, you and I talked a bit at the National in WI. I can clearly remember sitting at your seminar when you recommended that oilheads should be torn down for a spline lube around 50,000 miles and the lively discussion that generated within the group. I had about 47,000 miles on mine then, and remember saying to myself that the bike is running good and there is no reason to go in there, at least until the season is over. I suspect the damage was already done in my case, but regardless, your recommendation was right on the ball. I hope others can catch any problems and hopefully prevent these failures by heeding your advice.

The MOA is lucky to have someone as capable as you in the position of "head wrench." And more importantly, your willingness to share your knowledge with the members at large makes you a huge asset to the organization, not to mention you're a hell of a good guy. I'll hope to see you at some rallies next year, regardless of the brand I happen to be riding. Ever thought about getting technically proficient on Triumphs? :D

Anyway, I appreciate all the advice and feedback, and I'll keep you all informed if a miracle happens. At any rate, I gotta ride the bike about 4,000 miles so I can collect the 200,000 mile certificate for the "I love me wall" :D

[flash412]

...gravity can cause the clutch disk to drop slightly off center.Unless I missed something, the clutch disk can drop slightly due to gravity only when the input shaft is not spinning. That would require the clutch to be disengaged and the bike not moving or require the clutch to be disengaged and the trans in neutral for tens of seconds (with more time for warmer oil and less for cold). Otherwise, the clutch disk will be coaxial with the input shaft, due to centrifugal force being a whole lot greater than gravity.

Did I miss something? Maybe the clutch disk isn't balanced properly?

Back on topic... Never downshift? Never upshift either. Hell, never turn the ignition key to the "on" position. SHEESH!

[Wallowa]

Thanks for the advice cjack, and in my case, that has all been done. I have the old parts, and even the oil that was drained out of the transmission (BMW hypoid gear oil). I have offered to have them inspect the parts (in my presence), as did the dealer when the bike was in the shop. My family has a 45 year relationship with the dealership owner, so I believe they fought as much as they could for me. We'll see what happens. As has been said before, any product can fail, but how the company deals with the failure determines their true organizational character and whether or not a customer will do business with them again. Having been around BMW's since 1970, I have a pretty good idea of how they will deal with this unless their hand is forced.

Bought my '07 R12GSA on 2-5-07...love the hell out of the bike...bought a BMW for the way it handled and the ease of working on it...also unfortunately because I thought that corporate BMW was a class act...they certainly are anything BUT a class act...obfuscate and deny...I hear contact Customer Service, that is a joke, Customer Service is an independent company hired by BMW NA to filter complaints and placate owners; they are part of the "black hole of information" surrounding any problems with BMW bikes....try to call someone at BMW NA or BMW Germany...hell, even try to email them and get a personal response and not "go talk to your dealer"...

OK...so I love my bike and think BMW the Company is a piece of ****...that is why I am on forums to learn how to fix and maintain my bike....sad that arrogance and money at some point corrupted BMW and destroyed their credibility..

Sorry to get off topic...but if premature mechanical failures are not caused by abuse, then the design, materials and workmanship weaknesses that lead to the failures should be openly discussed and corrected by BMW...crap they even keep their dealers in the dark...Grrrrrr.

Just my opinions...your mileage may vary...:blush

[PGlaves]

Unless I missed something, the clutch disk can drop slightly due to gravity only when the input shaft is not spinning. That would require the clutch to be disengaged and the bike not moving or require the clutch to be disengaged and the trans in neutral for tens of seconds (with more time for warmer oil and less for cold). Otherwise, the clutch disk will be coaxial with the input shaft, due to centrifugal force being a whole lot greater than gravity.

Did I miss something? Maybe the clutch disk isn't balanced properly?

Back on topic... Never downshift? Never upshift either. Hell, never turn the ignition key to the "on" position. SHEESH!

I said "So pull the clutch lever with the bike in gear and stationary" - think you just stopped at a stop sign. Nothing in the transmission is spinning.

Radial pressure is imposed on the front bearing at least until you then shift into second, at which point it will tend to center - yes, maybe. Not a perfect example, but take a hula hoop and spin it around your arm and see how well centrifugal force centers it. The physics are the same.

[flash412]

Radial pressure is imposed on the front bearing at least until you then shift into second, at which point it will tend to center - yes, maybe.Ok. But why would a radial load hurt a ball bearing (single or double row) or a roller bearing? That is the load for which they are designed. Ball and roller bearings get unhappy with axial loads, which is why proper shimming is so important in transmissions with helical gears.

[PGlaves]

Ok. But why would a radial load hurt a ball bearing (single or double row) or a roller bearing? That is the load for which they are designed. Ball and roller bearings get unhappy with axial loads, which is why proper shimming is so important in transmissions with helical gears.

A ball bearing is designed to take a given radial load - and in the case of a transmission the radial load is not huge, esentially created by the gear mesh in the transmission. I said "excess" radial load.

I did not make my original comments up. I learned them from a good engineering book on driveline mechanics. Most row crop and hay farmers know fairly well what happens when driveline slop happens in splined connections.

I suspect we will just need to agree to disagree on this one. I believe it - you don't.

You also might or might not believe my understanding as to why a damaged driveshaft universal joint caused an output shaft bearing to fail too - but the lab that did the analysis said it was excessive radial force causing a lack of lubrication because the clearances closed up. And this on a bearing designed to take a given amount of radial load.

We'll just have to disagree I guess.

[rocketman]

On what? The guy just keeps saying "do not downshift." Heck, you upshift, you gotta downshift at some point. That's my take on it.

Well that petty much goes without saying thou....

I may be having a "senior" moment but it seems to me I once heard/read about a "rotary" transmission where you could just keep shifting up to top gear then the next shift took you back to first, all while moving the shifter in the same direction each time???? course it would make it hard to downshift thru the gears, though I think you could still do that as with any normal trany. As I said I may just be having a senior moment but... anyone else ever heard of this? It was on some two-wheeler as I remember...


RM

[DarrylRi]

The first foot shifters did not have a "positive stop", so you could shift up or down more than one gear at a time. I bet that made for some interesting riding!

[PGlaves]

The old "rotary" shifters - sometimes called suicide shifters if I recall correctly - must have been something. You sure better have known when you were in top gear.

Head off down the road in 1st, shift to 2nd, shift to 3rd, shift to 4th, lose track - try another upshift back in to 1st at road speed - screetch .....

I'm glad they decided to change that setup.

[jgr451]

Sorry,what?
Shirley you can't be serious,don't downshift?

Reply:"Yes I'm serious.And please don't call me Shirley."

[wozerd]

Comments are not aimed at BeemerMike but the concept of not using your engine compression to slow bike..

Geee Wheeezzz...[insert much stronger invective]...I really could care less how anyone rides their bike...that is their business...but don't shut the door on riders that downshift and brake separately or concurrently to slow down...a lot of fine racers and road riders set up their bikes for corners or surface changes by using both the transmission and brakes...to say that brakes are cheaper than transmissions is one of those "when did you stop beating your wife" meaningless comments...

Good grief folks take a wider view...like Anton said the transmission has to be downshifted at some point...and excellence in riding would dictate that you use ALL the tools in the box...brakes and transmission to name only two..

Ps...If my BMW will not hold up under decelerating via downshifting...I need to get a different bike..Hey, anybody what to discuss double-clutching or shifting without using the clutch?:bow


HOLY COW BATMAN!!!

That's how I feel!!

Don't downshift to slow the bike? Don't downshift while braking??

This IS a BMW isn't it? Not some Chinese scooter for $795.00 on E-Bay!
If my Honda could take repeated downshifting and braking from 160+, this BMW better be able to do it also (or, I'll go get me another Honda!!)

[Greenwald]

While I have enjoyed more than one Honda over my 25+ years of constant street-riding (Heck - kept my PC800 Pacific Coast for 11 years!), don't trade in that BMW just yet.

Constant downshifting in response to velocity changes, terrain, sudden decision making, weather, etc., is all part of normal riding. One matches engine speed to road speed - that's why motorcycles have multiple gears and we shift in the first place.

My only two cents worth on a thread that has gotten intimidatingly technical (that Glaves guy must be Mr. Wizard in disguise!) is that one must choose the timing of their shifting with care, and release the clutch smoothly.

For me, riding a motorcycle is more of a graceful dance than Greco-Roman wrestling.

To each their own.

[flash412]

A ball bearing is designed to take a given radial load - and in the case of a transmission the radial load is not huge, esentially created by the gear mesh in the transmission. I said "excess" radial load.

I did not make my original comments up. I learned them from a good engineering book on driveline mechanics. Most row crop and hay farmers know fairly well what happens when driveline slop happens in splined connections.

I suspect we will just need to agree to disagree on this one. I believe it - you don't.

You also might or might not believe my understanding as to why a damaged driveshaft universal joint caused an output shaft bearing to fail too - but the lab that did the analysis said it was excessive radial force causing a lack of lubrication because the clearances closed up. And this on a bearing designed to take a given amount of radial load.

We'll just have to disagree I guess.Nah, we don't disagree. Clearly BMW transmissions are not designed nor manufactured to carry the loads for the purpose for which they were intended to be used and sold to unsuspecting consumers. It looks like BMWs most recent transmissions were designed by the latest crop of engineering school dropouts, probably the same fellows who (under)design BMW's "famous for sudden and catastrophic failure" rear differentials.

File a complaint with the NHTSA. Get it on record.

[cjack]

Yes it is fine - and I was sort of curious on a motorcycle transmission how you can shift it without ever downshifting.. is there some magic here I'm missing.. my motorcycle transmissions are sequential - 1-N-2-3-4-5-6, 6-5-4-3-2-N-1 Somehow I can't figure out how to get from 6th to 1st without downshifting (color me slow today..:blush )

There was a BMW that had a neutral lever. Whatever gear to neutral. I forget which one.

[DarrylRi]

There was a BMW that had a neutral lever. Whatever gear to neutral. I forget which one.

Hmmm, dunno about that, but the R12 (not R1200) and R17 had a "4 on the floor" H pattern shifter. Neutral always available.

The earlier bikes had 3 speed linear shift transmissions. 1st and 3rd were constant mesh, but 2nd was what I've heard called a "crashbox" gear, where you actually push the gears into mesh. 2nd gear had dogs on both faces, and the shift lever actually pushed it into mesh with 1st or 3rd, as well. Besides the normal neutral between 1st and 2nd, if you shift carefully, there's a neutral between 2nd and 3rd.

[torags]

I just filed a complaint with the NHTSA. To get it on record.

Thanks for the suggestion.

:thumb

[cjack]

Here is an interesting writeup on BMW transmissions. Interesting about using 90 weight only. No multigrade except in winter. I like the bit about o-rings to quiet the clunk.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.motorcycles/browse_thread/thread/f8b8c5ff84629a83/6acd8001a55ccb96%236acd8001a55ccb96#

[JimVonBaden1]

A ball bearing is designed to take a given radial load - and in the case of a transmission the radial load is not huge, esentially created by the gear mesh in the transmission. I said "excess" radial load.

I did not make my original comments up. I learned them from a good engineering book on driveline mechanics. Most row crop and hay farmers know fairly well what happens when driveline slop happens in splined connections.

I suspect we will just need to agree to disagree on this one. I believe it - you don't.

You also might or might not believe my understanding as to why a damaged driveshaft universal joint caused an output shaft bearing to fail too - but the lab that did the analysis said it was excessive radial force causing a lack of lubrication because the clearances closed up. And this on a bearing designed to take a given amount of radial load.

We'll just have to disagree I guess.


I get what you are saying there Paul. How is the BMW different from a car clutch with the shaft in a pilot bushing in the motor? Wouldn't the same thing happen in a car, and if so, wouldn't it happen in ANY dry clutch?

Not trying to be argumentative, just understand how the BMW motorcycle is different?

Jim :brow

[PGlaves]

I get what you are saying there Paul. How is the BMW different from a car clutch with the shaft in a pilot bushing in the motor? Wouldn't the same thing happen in a car, and if so, wouldn't it happen in ANY dry clutch?

Not trying to be argumentative, just understand how the BMW motorcycle is different?

Jim :brow

Yes - in principle a badly worn spline in any dry clutch can off-center and impose loads on the transmission shaft bearing.

Two differences that I know of: normally the transmission bearings are beefier (technical term for designed to take larger radial loads) and most can splines don't seem to have the habit of wearing like BMW motorcycle clutch splines do.

I have no positive knowledge why that is - but the length of the spline is usually much longer - thus spreading the loading over a larger area.

[BeemerMike]

Two differences that I know of: normally the transmission bearings are beefier (technical term for designed to take larger radial loads) and most can splines don't seem to have the habit of wearing like BMW motorcycle clutch splines do.

I have no positive knowledge why that is - but the length of the spline is usually much longer - thus spreading the loading over a larger area.

This is something I have often wondered about. I have owned a lot of manual transmission cars (from Honda to BMW to Porsche), and I NEVER remember seeing a requirement/need to lubricate transmission input shaft splines in between clutch replacements.

"Why is that, Captain Ron?" :scratch

[JimVonBaden1]

Yes - in principle a badly worn spline in any dry clutch can off-center and impose loads on the transmission shaft bearing.

Two differences that I know of: normally the transmission bearings are beefier (technical term for designed to take larger radial loads) and most can splines don't seem to have the habit of wearing like BMW motorcycle clutch splines do.

I have no positive knowledge why that is - but the length of the spline is usually much longer - thus spreading the loading over a larger area.


Is THAT what beefy means?:laugh

Seriously, I often wondered why BMW didn't extend the length and add a pilot bushing. Any reason you can think of?

Jim :brow

[flash412]

I often wondered why BMW didn't extend the length and add a pilot bushing. Any reason you can think of?Crappy engineering with the cost accountants controlling all the decisions. Same idea behind the "SEALED! Lifetime lubricated" differential fiasco. They saved the price of a pair of bolts for fill and drain (and machining operations to make the holes) and created a generation of BMW-Flambé.

[torags]

This is something I have often wondered about. I have owned a lot of manual transmission cars (from Honda to BMW to Porsche), and I NEVER remember seeing a requirement/need to lubricate transmission input shaft splines in between clutch replacements.

"Why is that, Captain Ron?" :scratch

I'm with you. How do you lubricate an input shaft without having the lube spritz on within the clutch cavity onto the clutch?

[PGlaves]

I'm with you. How do you lubricate an input shaft without having the lube spritz on within the clutch cavity onto the clutch?

The snide answer is, "by doing it properly." To be more specific, the front edge of the clutch hub is in line with the disk and lube can be flung from this location onto the friction surface. But the rear of the clutch hub extends back and is not in line with the friction surface, so lube flung from this location will not foul the disk.

So to lubricate that spline you should first clean all traces of old lubricant, dust, and metal grindings off both the clutch hub splines and the input shaft splines. You should then apply a thin layer of lubricant so it completely covers the entire splined area of the INPUT SHAFT ONLY.

If you do this any excess will be pushed back along the shaft by the rear of the hub and if flung is not in line with the disk. If you put lube on the splines in the hub any excess will be pushed forward out of the hub, and if flung it will contaminate the friction surface.

If, after lubing the splines you (for whatever reason) slide it together and then again pull the transmission back, then you need to clean the lube that stuck in the hub out before you put the transmission back forward.

If you use this procedure and avoid slathering a lot of excess lube on or in the splines, disk contamination will not be a problem.

[BeemerMike]

I'm with you. How do you lubricate an input shaft without having the lube spritz on within the clutch cavity onto the clutch?

I believe the short answer (to supplement Paul's long answer) is "you separate the transmission from the engine the same as you would if you were replacing the clutch". ;)

[torags]

Does that mean lubricating the shaft along the clutch plate travel? It is a dry clutch. The oil bathes are in the motor and the transmission and the cavity where the clutch is, is lube free - hence the term dry clutch. Or is the end of the thrust shaft lubed into the engine bearing.

Enlighten me if I'm off base.

Additionally that would have to be done on manufacture or any subsequent transmission removal, is that right?

I don't know of any owner/maintenance lubrication means.

Perhaps there are three reasons for the clutch spline to get cheesed. A sloppy engine bearing fit or a misaligned transmission. If yes, than responsibility for the condition lies with the last entity that assembled engine/trans, or extreme mileage (over 100K, but the plates would probably fail first)

[kbasa]

Does that mean lubricating the shaft along the clutch plate travel? It is a dry clutch. The oil bathes are in the motor and the transmission and the cavity where the clutch is, is lube free - hence the term dry clutch. Or is the end of the thrust shaft lubed into the engine bearing.

Enlighten me if I'm off base.

Additionally that would have to be done on manufacture or any subsequent transmission removal, is that right?

I don't know of any owner/maintenance lubrication means.

Perhaps there are three reasons for the clutch spline to get cheesed. A sloppy engine bearing fit or a misaligned transmission. If yes, than responsibility for the condition lies with the last entity that assembled engine/trans, or extreme mileage (over 100K, but the plates would probably fail first)

For dry clutches, some lubrication on the input shaft helps the clutch plate slide back and forth more easily.

Lubricant is typically a paste of some kind. I prefer Honda's Moly60. It's very thick and sticks well. Making sure the input spline is well lubed allows the clutch to move easily, but also provides some lubrication and prevents the clutch splines from chewing on the input spline when power is fed through it.

I hope that's helpful. After you've lubed the input, you'll notice remarkably smooth and easy clutch and shift effort.

[BeemerMike]

Does that mean lubricating the shaft along the clutch plate travel?

I believe the answer is "yes". Paul?


Additionally that would have to be done on manufacture or any subsequent transmission removal, is that right?

I don't know of any owner/maintenance lubrication means.

See notes below.

Perhaps there are three reasons for the clutch spline to get cheesed. A sloppy engine bearing fit or a misaligned transmission. If yes, than responsibility for the condition lies with the last entity that assembled engine/trans, or extreme mileage (over 100K, but the plates would probably fail first)

I believe you have correctly summarized the frustration many of us have with the (unspecified, but apparently necessary) periodic maintenance on a difficult-to-access part at intervals less than required for major repair (i.e., clutch replacement). We acknowledge and deal with it, even if we don't agree with or understand it. :scratch

[torags]

For dry clutches, some lubrication on the input shaft helps the clutch plate slide back and forth more easily.

Lubricant is typically a paste of some kind. I prefer Honda's Moly60. It's very thick and sticks well. Making sure the input spline is well lubed allows the clutch to move easily, but also provides some lubrication and prevents the clutch splines from chewing on the input spline when power is fed through it.

I hope that's helpful. After you've lubed the input, you'll notice remarkably smooth and easy clutch and shift effort.

Sounds reasonable, But..... Even if you apply the lube with a qtip. The operation of the clutch sliding along the shaft will create a "oil burr" with the threat of centrifugal force throwing the burr onto the clutch plate.

I've never done a BMW clutch job and I don't know what the clutch spline is made of. However, If I did the metallurgical design I would use bronze for the clutch spline. Softer than steel and wear powder would dry lube the shaft. I just wouldn't use grease in that cavity, just my .02.

[cjack]

Sounds reasonable, But..... Even if you apply the lube with a qtip. The operation of the clutch sliding along the shaft will create a "oil burr" with the threat of centrifugal force throwing the burr onto the clutch plate.

I've never done a BMW clutch job and I don't know what the clutch spline is made of. However, If I did the metallurgical design I would use bronze for the clutch spline. Softer than steel and wear powder would dry lube the shaft. I just wouldn't use grease in that cavity, just my .02.

I think the trans input shaft spline is steel, and the mating clutch splines, since about 12/97 are steel plated with I think zinc. I think also that BMW uses some kind of white grease sparingly on new bike input splines.
A thin smear of moly60 or similar does not spin out on the clutch in my experience.

[deilenberger]

Sounds reasonable, But..... Even if you apply the lube with a qtip. The operation of the clutch sliding along the shaft will create a "oil burr" with the threat of centrifugal force throwing the burr onto the clutch plate.

I've never done a BMW clutch job and I don't know what the clutch spline is made of. However, If I did the metallurgical design I would use bronze for the clutch spline. Softer than steel and wear powder would dry lube the shaft. I just wouldn't use grease in that cavity, just my .02.That's the difference between theory and practice.. in practice, contamination of the driven disk with lubricant hasn't been a problem. You normally use a brush to apply the Honda-60, it is very messy stuff.

And the clutch disk only moves a very tiny distance as the clamping force of the clutch pressure plate is released.. if I had to guess - less than 1-2mm.

I suspect bronze might not be a good selection for a power transfer spline - it's soft enough to deform with load. Once it deforms - it's done for. It does work well for bushings - but not bushings with any side load on them.

[Motorcyclist]

Paul, Jim, Dave, Don, et al,
How about spline lube on the Hexheads? Are people seeing the same need to tear half the bike apart to lube the splines on those models, or has BMW made some improvements that make them more "maintenance friendly?"

Paul - would you still recommend a 50K teardown on a Hexhead to check/lube the splines?

Thanks,

[deilenberger]

Paul, Jim, Dave, Don, et al,
How about spline lube on the Hexheads? Are people seeing the same need to tear half the bike apart to lube the splines on those models, or has BMW made some improvements that make them more "maintenance friendly?"

Paul - would you still recommend a 50K teardown on a Hexhead to check/lube the splines?

Thanks,Speaking for myself - don't think anyone knows yet. BMW did try to address a lot of "problem" areas in the R1200 design (some more successfully than others - like the rear-drive.) My hope is they addressed the need to lubricate the splines. Not too many people have over 50k miles on their R1200/hexheads yet - but a few do, and I haven't heard of any spline problems or shifting problems that might be due to dry splines.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed (which makes it harder to use the BMW switch-gear, but we won't go there.. :whistle )

[PGlaves]

Paul, Jim, Dave, Don, et al,
How about spline lube on the Hexheads? Are people seeing the same need to tear half the bike apart to lube the splines on those models, or has BMW made some improvements that make them more "maintenance friendly?"

Paul - would you still recommend a 50K teardown on a Hexhead to check/lube the splines?

Thanks,

That is like politics, or sports. Too early to tell and too close to call. I hope they don't need it, but I'm not holding my breath. Time will tell.

At one point in its history BMW started nickel plating parts, and declared that the spline wear problems which had been evident in earlier bikes was cured (or at least most of the dealers made such declaration). Of course it wasn't and owners who believed it - and kept their bikes 50 or 60 or 70K miles learned otherwise the hard way.

At the seminars I have done for the last ten years the need to lubricate clutch splines has been historically the most argumentative topic we have covered. (Until 140wt gear oil in final drives came up for discussion). People just don't want to believe that this lubrication is necessary. I've heard almost every "My old Ford" and "My Toyota" story possible - as to why we don't do this to cars so I don't have to do this to my motorcycle.

I don't fully understand - other than to say the size of the splines and the metallurgy is different.

What I do know from taking a lot of transmissions out of bikes is that they splines need periodic lubrication and periodic lubrication helps them last a very long time. I quit arguing with people at my seminars. I just tell them "lubrication is my recommendation - it's your bike - do what you wish."

[torags]

Fair nuff...

Then if lub is necessary, one might as well replace clutch plate at 50-60K???

[Motorcyclist]

At the seminars I have done for the last ten years the need to lubricate clutch splines has been historically the most argumentative topic we have covered. (Until 140wt gear oil in final drives came up for discussion). People just don't want to believe that this lubrication is necessary. I've heard almost every "My old Ford" and "My Toyota" story possible - as to why we don't do this to cars so I don't have to do this to my motorcycle.




Thanks for the honest assessment Paul (and Don), I guess time will tell. After getting burned this time, I'll probably take a wait and see posture before considering a Hexhead.

If you saw my post #48 on this thread I was at the seminar in WI and it was clearly a contentious topic. I wish BMW would have found an actual fix, rather than just delete the service from the owner's manual. On my K75s, I recall the drive and clutch splines were supposed to be lubed at 40k, and one of the selling points of the oilheads was that this issue was "fixed." In my case, "fixed" meant riding until it failed.

I'd love to see the data on these types of failures, and final drive ones as well. Perhaps some hot shot atty will make it a point to take them to court one of these days, and get the data through discovery. That would be an enlightening service to the rest of us.

[Mcathcart]

Sounds reasonable, But..... Even if you apply the lube with a qtip. The operation of the clutch sliding along the shaft will create a "oil burr" with the threat of centrifugal force throwing the burr onto the clutch plate.

I've never done a BMW clutch job and I don't know what the clutch spline is made of. However, If I did the metallurgical design I would use bronze for the clutch spline. Softer than steel and wear powder would dry lube the shaft. I just wouldn't use grease in that cavity, just my .02.


Brother after you jumped out there and insulted (???) with the comment something of "I know more than you"... you're not doing so well on Mechanical Design 101. Bronze for an input shaft? Unless you bust the bank, the Automotive/Mototcycle industry has only two basic clutch designs 1. Dry and 2. Wet. You might seem to me less challenged if you'd suggested a Wet Clutch for a Beemer so the shaft would be lubricated without any "metallurgical design".

Is BMW's design faulty? Well... There's billions of cars that have the same clutch set-up and never require any input shaft lube. Increasing the contact area between the input shaft splines and clutch plate would help but, is there room? Out of the 9 BMW bikes I've owned I never considered the clutch a problem.

Replace the clutch at 50 to 60k? What the heck for? It's not the clutch that's worn out it's has to do with spline lube.

[Ctrod]

About how many mile before the clutch needs to be replaced?:drink

[PGlaves]

About how many mile before the clutch needs to be replaced?:drink

That depends a lot on where/how you ride. Touring riders who get a low number of shifts per mile can go 150K miles. People with mostly stop and go commute riding might get 75 to 90K, if that. People who are gentle riders get more, hot rodders get less. Field events and slow racers get even less, unless they have a lot of highway only miles between slow races.

[Red100RT]

I just can't stand anymore of this paranoia:banghead Have any of you removed the starter motor and looked in the resulting view port and observed the amount of travel of the clutch plate as it travels on the trans input shaft as the clutch lever is operated? The movement, as noted earlier, is maybe a couple of millimeters at best.
And then we have people that actually imagine a huge improvement in shifting smoothness after lubricating the trans input shaft. Hey, if the clutch is working and disengages the engine from the transmission when called for the trans will shift exactly the same lube or no lube, jeez! Also, spline wear will not be affected with lube or without because there is no lateral movement of any kind between the clutch splines and the trans splines at all. Now just maybe that is why BMW does not list spline lube in routine maintenance schedules, you suppose?:banghead

[torags]

Fair nuff...

Then if lub is necessary, one might as well replace clutch plate at 50-60K???

I'm suggesting if you have the parts dissembled to lube the spline you might as well replace the plate.

My issue occurred , not from lube , but from a misaligned transmission.

Something else was mentioned by the tech: a lot of rust was present and he replaced the bolts.

My bike is garaged. I suspect there is a weep hole for the clutch cavity.

However, I did run into more than 12 hours of rain in a failed BBG attempt (got the BB) and I'm guessing the rain worked its way into the cavity and created rust.

Paul have you seen a rust problem in your experience?

[kbasa]

Fair nuff...

Then if lub is necessary, one might as well replace clutch plate at 50-60K???

That'll depend on you, but disassembly of the clutch is another significant process of disassembly/reassembly. BMW clutches are pretty good, so if you're halfway kind to your clutch, replacement of the plate probably isn't necessary.

Notable exception: 1993 1/2 R11RS "beta" bikes had a smallish clutch. They were prone to wear and BMW updated the design shortly thereafter. Tina's RS ate the clutch at about 65K, so we updated it. Aside from that, I don't hear much about clutch life issues.

And Moly60 is amazingly sticky stuff the just won't fly off.

[kbasa]

I just can't stand anymore of this paranoia:banghead Have any of you removed the starter motor and looked in the resulting view port and observed the amount of travel of the clutch plate as it travels on the trans input shaft as the clutch lever is operated? The movement, as noted earlier, is maybe a couple of millimeters at best.
And then we have people that actually imagine a huge improvement in shifting smoothness after lubricating the trans input shaft. Hey, if the clutch is working and disengages the engine from the transmission when called for the trans will shift exactly the same lube or no lube, jeez! Also, spline wear will not be affected with lube or without because there is no lateral movement of any kind between the clutch splines and the trans splines at all. Now just maybe that is why BMW does not list spline lube in routine maintenance schedules, you suppose?:banghead

One of the indicators that you're due for an input spline lube is difficulty shifting or increased effort at the clutch lever. If the clutch plate hangs up, it won't disengage smoothly and will indeed cause some odd shifting behavior.

If you've ever shifted a bike without using the clutch, you know that the transmission is considerably notchier and higher effort than if you use the clutch. A dry input spline is somewhere in between the two extremes, to my left foot's touch.

This is true for airheads, /2s, oilheads, hexheads and kbikes with a dry, single plate clutch.

Now, why BMW doesn't put it in their maintenance schedules is something I don't have a clue about. But an input spline can be a wear item if it's not maintained properly. The average MOA member does something like 5K miles per year. At that rate, first spline lube might not come up for something like 8 years, based on the former 40K Kbike maintenance interval.

[JimVonBaden1]

Paul, Jim, Dave, Don, et al,
How about spline lube on the Hexheads? Are people seeing the same need to tear half the bike apart to lube the splines on those models, or has BMW made some improvements that make them more "maintenance friendly?"

Paul - would you still recommend a 50K teardown on a Hexhead to check/lube the splines?

Thanks,

I am on half a dozen BMW centric boards, and have only once seen any issues with the splines on an R1200, and it was uncertain what it was, and the poster was vague, no pictures.

From the miles accumulated by many, included half a dozen over 40K in my local club, and the lack of anything on the forums, I am thinking the situation is much improved, if not fixed. No data to back it up, but since many of the R1150 bikes had spline failures before 30K miles, we should definitely have seen some on the R1200 by now.

Jim :brow

[PGlaves]

I am on half a dozen BMW centric boards, and have only once seen any issues with the splines on an R1200, and it was uncertain what it was, and the poster was vague, no pictures.

From the miles accumulated by many, included half a dozen over 40K in my local club, and the lack of anything on the forums, I am thinking the situation is much improved, if not fixed. No data to back it up, but since many of the R1150 bikes had spline failures before 30K miles, we should definitely have seen some on the R1200 by now.

Jim :brow

I think I agree with Jim - that one of the problems seemed solved at least. I think there are two issues. There were a number of 1100 and 1150 bikes - mostly 1150 - that seemed to have an alignement problem and had early spline wear. I haven't heard of that on the 1200s.

I think the jury may still be out on long term durability - as in do the splines need lubrication at 50K? 60K? 75K? 100K.

My answer - I don't know yet.

[jlaban]

Question:
How long, do you estimate, it would take a qualified tech in a fully equipped shop to tear the bike apart, lube the clutch splines and put it back together ?

John

[JimVonBaden1]

Question:
How long, do you estimate, it would take a qualified tech in a fully equipped shop to tear the bike apart, lube the clutch splines and put it back together ?

John

The standard time for a trans seal replacement job is, according to my dealer, 7 hours. This would be similar to a spline lube, maybe an hour less for the spline lube.

Jim :brow

[torags]

The standard time for a trans seal replacement job is, according to my dealer, 7 hours. This would be similar to a spline lube, maybe an hour less for the spline lube.

Jim :brow

The tech charged $810 for labor (SF Rates) for my job. It included some time for install of new pieces.

[Screamineagle]

.



Back on topic... Never downshift? Never upshift either. Hell, never turn the ignition key to the "on" position. SHEESH![/QUOTE]

now that would save lots of money and time. Keep the bike pretty new for a long time.

[bmwmick]

One of the indicators that you're due for an input spline lube is difficulty shifting or increased effort at the clutch lever. If the clutch plate hangs up, it won't disengage smoothly and will indeed cause some odd shifting behavior.


Dave,
I disagree with your statement above. The clutch lever is NOT connected to the friction disc at all. Increased clutch lever force would indicate a lubrication problem at the actuating lever, the operating linkage at the rear of the tranny or cable pivot problems. The friction disc only moves about 0.080" with the clutch spring depressed. All you are doing with the clutch lever is compressing the diaphragm spring.

I replaced the clutch disc in my '93 K1100LT at about 125K miles. It still looked like new (except for the oil-soaked friction material) and the input shaft splines also looked new. I did not lube the splines until I replaced the clutch disc.

My '96 R1100RT has never been apart and it is about 67K right now. I've had the starter out and looked at the clutch hub/input shaft as best I could. I find no debris and no obvious wear there either. I plan to lube it when the friction disc wears to the point it needs replacement. :blah

[Red100RT]

Dave,
I disagree with your statement above. The clutch lever is NOT connected to the friction disc at all. Increased clutch lever force would indicate a lubrication problem at the actuating lever, the operating linkage at the rear of the tranny or cable pivot problems. The friction disc only moves about 0.080" with the clutch spring depressed. All you are doing with the clutch lever is compressing the diaphragm spring.

I replaced the clutch disc in my '93 K1100LT at about 125K miles. It still looked like new (except for the oil-soaked friction material) and the input shaft splines also looked new. I did not lube the splines until I replaced the clutch disc.

My '96 R1100RT has never been apart and it is about 67K right now. I've had the starter out and looked at the clutch hub/input shaft as best I could. I find no debris and no obvious wear there either. I plan to lube it when the friction disc wears to the point it needs replacement. :blah

Finally, light at the end of the tunnel and common sense.:whistle

[Mcathcart]

Finally, light at the end of the tunnel and common sense.:whistle

Amen James! After much dilemma... There is no such thing as Common Sense (other than Hot and Cold). One of Mark Twain's famous quotes, "It's not that we have too many Idiots, it's that Lightening is not Distributed Correctly".

Yes, I have it now. "NEVER DOWN Shift and Never Up Shift"!

Mike

[torags]

Well I've learned some things here.

Thanks Paul & Kbasa, I for one appreciate it. :thumb

Some seem to resent and resist the presentation of facts that can lead to knowledge. It's pretty sad, but I guess its the way it is. Flame on....

[jlaban]

Before you all leave, I have another question.
According to above comments it will take about 800± of my dollars to lube the clutch splines. If I let it go, what is the estimate to repair the damage when the splines (etc) erode?

John

[AntonLargiader]

Depending on the bike, an Oilhead clutch spline lube alone can be done in 3~5 hours. I don't think I've ever done only that operation, though; I'm always replacing other parts or at least fully disassembling & inspecting the components.

If the splines let go simply because they haven't been lubed... I don't think that's probable, so there's no typical cost for that. If the splines let go at all, depending on what problems are found, you're looking at $1000 in parts plus about ten hours of labor. This is assuming you replace the entire clutch assembly (everything aft of the crankshaft) plus the input shaft and all tranny seals. You might also want to throw in a new slave cylinder, pivot bearings/bushings, stuff like that.

[jlaban]

Thanks Anton, though this thread has wandered, it's been very informative.

[John Brase]

Depending on the bike, an Oilhead clutch spline lube alone can be done in 3~5 hours.
Or a little faster if Meredith does the work while Anton provides the narrative.

John

[torags]

Before you all leave, I have another question.
According to above comments it will take about 800± of my dollars to lube the clutch splines. If I let it go, what is the estimate to repair the damage when the splines (etc) erode?

John

Total for my job was $2,000 incl parts & labor (But that was for a misaligned transmission. They may have had to put additional parts in)

[AntonLargiader]

Or a little faster if Meredith does the work while Anton provides the narrative.
Aha, so you were in Boise, huh? That was fun. I still can't believe she had that thing apart in so little time. And we rode it to dinner an hour later.

[JimMoore]

Before you all leave, I have another question.
According to above comments it will take about 800± of my dollars to lube the clutch splines. If I let it go, what is the estimate to repair the damage when the splines (etc) erode?

John

Just so ya know, there is a school of thought that says if you got a good one, it's gonna last forever, lubed or not. If you got a bad one, it's gonna eat itself every 30K miles, even if you lube it every weekend.

[bmwmick]

Aha, so you were in Boise, huh? That was fun. I still can't believe she had that thing apart in so little time. And we rode it to dinner an hour later.

Yes,
She was amazing!! Thanks to you and Meredith, I have a complete set of wobble extensions. :thumb

[torags]

OK. since there appears to be a gathering of the knowledgeable.....

This is a new subject: Defects and recalls.

As a result of the suggestion of a poster on this thread, I reported my misaligned transmission issue to the feds (NHTSA). While there I decided to check for recalls on my model.

Guess what. There is a recall notice for 04 R1150RT. (sealing ring on the master cylinder)

Was this done on my bike in the normal course of service by the dealer........ NO!

Have other owners had recall work done? Is a recall (a threat to safety) limited to the warranty period? or should the work be done by the manufacturer on used bikes.

[bmwmick]

Guess what. There is a recall notice for 04 R1150RT. (sealing ring on the master cylinder)

Was this done on my bike in the normal course of service by the dealer........ NO!

Have other owners had recall work done? Is a recall (a threat to safety) limited to the warranty period? or should the work be done by the manufacturer on used bikes.


If it is an official recall (04V-304 seems to be the recall) then you can have our dealer perform the repair at no cost. This extends beyond the warranty period.

Note: this recall only affected about 181 vehicles.

You can have your dealer search their SI bulletins for the actual details of this recall. I may not apply to your VIN.

[torags]

Thanks Mick.

[cjack]

OK. since there appears to be a gathering of the knowledgeable.....

This is a new subject: Defects and recalls.

As a result of the suggestion of a poster on this thread, I reported my misaligned transmission issue to the feds (NHTSA). While there I decided to check for recalls on my model.

Guess what. There is a recall notice for 04 R1150RT. (sealing ring on the master cylinder)

Was this done on my bike in the normal course of service by the dealer........ NO!

Have other owners had recall work done? Is a recall (a threat to safety) limited to the warranty period? or should the work be done by the manufacturer on used bikes.


BMW is working hard to make sure that all recalls are performed. When your dealer writes a repair order, they put your VIN into the system and they will be informed as to any and all recalls and campaigns that have been completed and those that are still outstanding.

[torags]

I had called BMW customer service and asked for a full refund. I am out of warranty over a year.

I received a call back today, informing me, that after they checked with my dealer BMW SF, they would refund $500. I think that's fair, I'm satisfied and grateful.

Customer loyalty to a dealer paid off.

[Motor31]

Does anyone have info about the recall? There is no dealer where I am right now. I would hope that a serial number range would be available to determine if your bike is on the recall.

[torags]

do a search on your model on their website

http://www.nhtsa.com

[Motor31]

I checked the site. There is no range of VIN's or other identifying information other than it pertains to certain K1200's and 1150RT's. It seems only a dealer has the info, in the mean time the rear brake may fail.

[BigAdv]

One you have found the recall that you are interested in, near the bottom of the page there is a link 'document search' click that and all doc.s relating to the recall will be displayed. Chose the one ' RCRIT-04V304-3352.pdf Remedy Instructions and TSB.' As you can see, it only affects a very narrow scope ie. 1 day prodution run of rear mastercylenders. You can check this # against yours to see if it needs to be done.

Earl

[billpierce]

I received a call back today, informing me, that after they checked with my dealer BMW SF, they would refund $500. I think that's fair, I'm satisfied and grateful.

This is smart on the part of BMW. The brand has a loyal following and this is the best way to keep them + insure future sales.

:thumb

[cjack]

This is smart on the part of BMW. The brand has a loyal following and this is the best way to keep them + insure future sales.

:thumb

BMW has been smart this way as far back as I can remember. I remember a final drive for an airhead being replaced after 10 years for a sand hole that opened up and a final drive for an '85 K being replaced in '99 for a busted crown gear. All warranty for parts from BMW and dealer supplied labor. They like it if the dealer kicks something in for the customer too.

[r11rs94]

I had called BMW customer service and asked for a full refund. I am out of warranty over a year.

I received a call back today, informing me, that after they checked with my dealer BMW SF, they would refund $500. I think that's fair, I'm satisfied and grateful.

Customer loyalty to a dealer paid off.

I find that customer loyalty usually does pay off. :thumb

[torags]

While I appreciate BMW's response, something should not be forgotten here.

It cost me $1,500 for a misaligned transmission - a manufacturers defect.

If I would have know about this condition with these models, I wouldn't have bought a new BMW, period.

I turned away from Mercedes after 20+ years of ownership, because of quality control issues.

There's no point in paying a premium for poorly manufactured goods.

my .02

[cjack]

I had called BMW customer service and asked for a full refund. I am out of warranty over a year.

I received a call back today, informing me, that after they checked with my dealer BMW SF, they would refund $500. I think that's fair, I'm satisfied and grateful.

Customer loyalty to a dealer paid off.

I find that customer loyalty usually does pay off. :thumb

This raises a thought that using the dealer for some stuff may be thought of as an extended warranty in some ways. No guarantee of course, but maybe cheaper in the long run to patronize the dealer than get an extended warranty.

[Bob1100RTC]

I've worked in a car dealership for the last 27 years and one thing thats for shure is that once a part is recalled it is always recalled. Meaning if it was replaced 10 years ago under recall and failed again last week its still under recall. I get screwed all the time by this as I have to do a job for warranty time on a car that might be 10 or 15 years old.

[clgennone]

Brakes should be used to slow down for a corner. Downshifting is performed so that after "turning" into the corner, you are in the proper gear and the engine is in its power band to maximize acceleration out of the corner. This is why racers downshift while braking for a corner. Simple as that. And yes, brakes are much cheaper than clutches, gearboxes, etc.;)

[Delaware.Dave]

I've spent a pretty good chunk of time reading through this thread, and although it's 3 years stale now, I have a questions or two for whomever is still listening in.

My 1999 R1100RT had 12,300 miles on it when I bought it, she has 16,500 now, 11 months later. She runs great and has been my daily driver all summer. In the last three weeks, I've noticed occasionally, the gear lever will stick solidly when trying to downshift from 4th to 3rd. When I say solidly, I mean it feels firmly in place. Cycling the clutch lever and trying again helps.

I read the thread, then called the local (200 miles round trip) dealer. The tech immediately said spline lube and quoted 8hr labor ($ 800.00). Early in the thread, it was mentioned that the owner could try changing the Transmission and Rear Differential fluids. In hindsight, would it be worth it, or is that just busy work and the real fix is the lube job? I'm currently "between jobs" and $800 is hard to come by right now. If the driveline is misaligned, would I see it this early, at 16K miles? most of the people I've read that had problems had them at twice that mileage.

Thanks in advance for the advice. :help

[bikerfish1100]

a '99 RT with 12K miles has done a whole lot of sitting.
I'll wager you have dry splines, as whatever greasase was applied 12-13 years ago is feeling pretty old and tired, and has likely decided to move to Miami Beach.
Do not hesitate or delay in doing this job. i waited about 2K miles after your symptoms first appeared, which was about 1K before i intended to lube them, when they decided to shear off mid-flight.
supposedly, a spline lube job on an RT is considered to be farily easy, tho a bit time-consuming at first.
my $.02

[Motor31]

Changing the rear drive fluid won't have any effect on a sticking shifter issue. If and I say IF the transmission fluid is very low then that might be related but highly doubtful. Splines are a good place to start.

The intriguing point though is the shift difficulties are ONLY between 3rd and 4th. If it were clutch splines it should be doing it at all shift points. I think you should be prepared for a full transmission tear down and rebuild.

[nrpetersen]

Pull the starter & look at the spline area to see if there is a lot of wear debris in there. Also note the tangential clearance of the spline teeth at the OD of the clutch disk. It should be less than ~3/16 inch. (Others may have a different criteria on this test for spline tooth face clearance).

If the spline area is clean, you have good spline alignment & you want to avoid dis assembly.

You could try an in situ lube job using a hypodermic needle. Never done that, but it can probably be done for about 1/10th the cost.

[bikerfish1100]

Changing the rear drive fluid won't have any effect on a sticking shifter issue. If and I say IF the transmission fluid is very low then that might be related but highly doubtful. Splines are a good place to start.

The intriguing point though is the shift difficulties are ONLY between 3rd and 4th. If it were clutch splines it should be doing it at all shift points. I think you should be prepared for a full transmission tear down and rebuild.

anecdotal experiences typically state "hard downshifts from 4 to 3, or 3 to 2. works okay if i release clutch and try all over again." classic symptoms of spline wear/lubrication issues.

[nrpetersen]

I agree the symptoms are not good.

[OfficerImpersonator]

I bought my new-to-me 2002 RTP in 2007. It had never been in police service. It had 23,750 miles on the odometer when I acquired her.

At a little over 33,000 miles and six months after I bought her, I came to a stop sign two blocks from home on my usual commute to work. I released the clutch to engage first gear and proceed into traffic and while the engine revved freely, the bike simply wouldn't go. It was as if the engine had become disconnected from the transmission.

Of course, it was a Monday morning.

I had the bike towed on a flat-bed tow truck to the dealer 20 miles away. They immediately diagnosed a stripped clutch input shaft. Three weeks and $2300 later, my engine was reconnected to my transmission and I was back on the road.

I wrote letters to BMW NA and was rejected for a warranty claim. My bike was simply too old for them to care about it.

That was 40,000 miles ago. If this problem is endemic, then I'm 10,000 miles overdue for another stripped clutch input shaft.

If it is indeed the result of misaligned engine and transmission cases, then it will happen again. Since it hasn't happened in the past four years and 40,000 miles, and I'm theoretically 10K miles "past the expiration date" of clutch input shafts in misaligned transmission/engine cases, I'm hesitant to blame manufacturing misalignment between the transmission and engine cases as the culprit.

Given all of the anecdotal information at my disposal, my suspicion is a problem with the metallurgy of the input shafts themselves. My theory is that BMW got a batch of input shafts made with an unusually soft alloy. Subsequent input shafts were made using a stronger metal, explaining why I haven't had the teeth on my replacement shaft strip off.

If this does happen again, you can bet that I'm going to be the squeakiest wheel BMW NA has ever encountered!

[bikerfish1100]

no clue on possible changes in metallurgy.
i do know that the basic design of the spline/clutch hub interface has an inherent weakness built into it as spec'd by BMW. The clutch hub area is long relative to the length of the shaft. Several years ago a shop in Canada was offering newly constructed input shafts that created a much larger hub interface, and was claiming much greater lifespan on these parts as a result. Problem was that his production numbers/demands were so small that he was charging ~$900 USD for the shaft. And, purchaser would be doing the beta testing.

[nrpetersen]

C'mon - the spline engagement is ~80% of the clutch hub spline depth. Even if you made the shafts of unobtainium, you would only increase the spline torque capacity by 20%.

A metallurgy problem would show as wear on only one element of the splined shaft or the clutch hub. The pictures I've seen so far show similar wear on both parts. Both parts are very likely made by different manufacturers so it isn't metallurgy, unless it happens to be simultaneous for those two manufacturers.

Granted there is a differential hardness over the length of the spline but this is to be expected due to limitations of an induction hardening setup and process. Some have been fooled by the differential wear and have suggested angular misalignment but closer inspection in every photo set I've seen reveal that the surfaces are simply wearing so they remain conjugal.

The failure reasons are one (or more) of these reasons:

1) Poor manufacturing quality maintaining alignment in one or more of the piece parts,
2) No lubrication on initial assembly,
3) Prying the clutch disk out of the crankshaft center axis for whatever reason on assembly,
4) Loose crankshaft main bearings causing the piston forces to be transmitted to the transmission input bearing via the spline.

We have beat on BMW for years for 1) with no success. We have observed 2) and there were some early years that BMW spec'd and used the wrong type of grease. 3) may still be happening both at the factory and in the field. 4) is very unlikely on a new engine but has been observed in a higher mileage field failure.

[RobertSutton]

I would suggest that the problems with clutch and input shaft problems are more to do with alignment problems that lubrication problems. Spline lubrication is more about resolving the alignment issue rather than correcting it. Having had 3 standard transmission cars a jeep 5 speed with 465,000km a 92 and a 94 tempo 5 speed with 400,000 km on each all with original clutches and never taken apart to be lubed, I think the problems lie elsewhere. The lubrication issue is a band aid. Bob

[ANDYVH]

Hard shifting on the R1100 and 1150 is directly attributed to lack of proper clutch hub spline lube, and proper clutch adjustment. My 94 RS shifts great (for any early Oilhead), I keep the clutch splines properly lubed every 40k, and use synthetic 75W90 gear lube in the tranny and still original rear hub (now at 165k).

I also "regularly" downshift as part of my riding technique. I tend to ride a bit "spirited" and my riding style has not reduced the life of my clutch. Had I not improperly installed the 1st new clutch at 80k, I would only be on my 2nd clutch at 165k. The 1st clutch got oil by the failed rear main seal. The 1st replacement wore out at about 115K because I had only replaced the friction plate and not the pressure plate/basket. As such, at about 120k I installed a completely new clutch assembly, and the bike has been great ever since.

I don't buy the misalinged transmission issue entirely, since the tranny is located by large dowel pins. But I can agree with the possible mis-aligned clutch. I do almost all my own work on my faithful RS, and I am no mechanic for certain. Maybe I just got lucky with this bike?

Back to that RT with 16k on it. Those are very low miles for a bike that age. But, that age on the clutch splines is a factor, as the spline lube has very likely never been updated, and it certainly needs it more than a tranny and final drive lube change. Oh, and do NOT use 75W140 in the rear hub, 75W90 is the right lube for the tranny and rear drive hub.

[nrpetersen]

I don't buy the misalinged transmission issue entirely, since the tranny is located by large dowel pins. But I can agree with the possible mis-aligned clutch. What's the difference?

[26667]

On what? The guy just keeps saying "do not downshift." Heck, you upshift, you gotta downshift at some point. That's my take on it.

puh-leez

[ANDYVH]

If the dowel pin machined holes are machined out of position at all, there are two possiblities I can envision:
1. the pins could to be in some rotation displacement aspect relative to the tranny input shaft centerline. But then the bolts holes would also have to be offset by the same rotation, for the tranny to bolt up to the crankcase of the engine. This would not affect the clutch, but it would mess up the alignment of all the components bolting onto the tranny case.
2. the pins could be displaced laterally relative to the flywheel output centerline on the X or Y axis. But again the bolt holes would have to follow to be able to bolt the tranny to the crankcase. This misalignment could cause an uneven load distribution on the clutch hub splines, in essense taking up any clearance between the teeth and splines on one "side".

A non-centered clutch friction plate would cause difficulty aligning the tranny to the engine dowel pins, especially with the clutch basket/pressure plate assembly torqued in place before the tranny input shaft is slid into position before. I don't have a clutch plate alignment tool myself. I just used a socket that fit the clutch hub bore, with a pointed drift through the center. It aligned perfectly the three times I have worked on the clutch on my 94 RS.

[David13]

I know it's the wrong area, and the wrong model, and this is an old thread.
But, others mentioned the 1200.
I'm curious what the RepROM means when it says "optimised gearbox, modified input shaft" for construction on the R1200 as of January 2008.
I guess what it means is they now use a different input shaft. But what about the optimized gearbox. What was done there?
dc

[nrpetersen]

If the dowel pin machined holes are machined out of position at all, there are two possiblities...............

A non-centered clutch friction plate would cause difficulty aligning the tranny to the engine dowel pins, especially with the clutch basket/pressure plate assembly torqued in place before the tranny input shaft is slid into position before. I don't have a clutch plate alignment tool myself. I just used a socket that fit the clutch hub bore, with a pointed drift through the center. It aligned perfectly the three times I have worked on the clutch on my 94 RS.The bolt holes have a clearance diameter slightly greater than the bolt OD so that the alignment is solely determined by the dowels.

It is my suspicion that maybe the initial alignment of the clutch disk is more important than we have been thinking. And that simply being able to put in and start the bolts isn't enough. Pulling the transmission to the engine with the bolts may distort the housing, locking in an alignment error. It could even be happening at factory assembly. Yje forces are high enough that the housing could be plasticly distorted (i.e. have a static set). I'm not convinced on this .....yet.

[m_stock10506]

I've spent a pretty good chunk of time reading through this thread....
My 1999 R1100RT had 12,300 miles on it when I bought it, she has 16,500 now, 11 months later. In the last three weeks, I've noticed occasionally, the gear lever will stick solidly when trying to downshift from 4th to 3rd. When I say solidly, I mean it feels firmly in place. Thanks in advance for the advice. :help
Your description says (to me) dry splines. Your symptoms mirror what I had on a 2001 R1100RT. The bike had about 48K miles when I bought it; it had been sitting unused though for a year or two. About 1,000 miles later the splines sheared off. I'm at 84k now. If you think $800 is hard to find, it will be harder if you wait and have to spend $2000 or more to rebuild the trans and clutch. You can try to lube the splines through the access by the starter. I don't do the syringe method. I "paint" the exposed spline area with Honda Moly 60 using an artists thin brush. It seems to be working well.
PM or email me directly if you want to go over specific details.

[Delaware.Dave]

I appreciate all those who have given their advice on this thread.

I want you all to know that this weekend I'm going to lubricate the splines. There is a very competent technician here that I will be assisting. This way, I can learn the proper way to do this while having the insight of experience close at hand.

I'll let you all know how it turns out.

[David13]

Let the tech do the work, and you take detailed photos all along the way. Please.
Thanks.
dc

[bikerfish1100]

I know it's the wrong area, and the wrong model, and this is an old thread.But, others mentioned the 1200.
I'm curious what the RepROM means when it says "optimised gearbox, modified input shaft" for construction on the R1200 as of January 2008.
I guess what it means is they now use a different input shaft. But what about the optimized gearbox. What was done there?
dc

so use that knowledge to get what you really want- info about your hexhead.

From Forums page, clik Hexhead/Camhead.
above the listing of threads, on left side, there is a clik link for New Thread. Start new thread- give it a good title that informs people accurately what your thread is about.
Get answers to your question from people who probably know more about Hex/Cams than most/many here in Oilheads.
provide good info to self and others with similar questions about same bike.
:thumb

[David13]

"I am on half a dozen BMW centric boards, and have only once seen any issues with the splines on an R1200, and it was uncertain what it was, and the poster was vague, no pictures.

From the miles accumulated by many, included half a dozen over 40K in my local club, and the lack of anything on the forums, I am thinking the situation is much improved, if not fixed. No data to back it up, but since many of the R1150 bikes had spline failures before 30K miles, we should definitely have seen some on the R1200 by now."

Jim

That was post #91 in this thread, from some time ago. That's the knowledge that I was thinking of tapping into.
But now I see he hasn't been here in more than a year.
No problem. I know where he has been lately.

Thanks for the advice about how to post and all. Not that I didn't know that myself.
dc

[rxcrider]

Ok. But why would a radial load hurt a ball bearing (single or double row) or a roller bearing? That is the load for which they are designed. Ball and roller bearings get unhappy with axial loads, which is why proper shimming is so important in transmissions with helical gears.

...because it isn't just a radial load. It is an off center rotating mass with an out of balance condition in an assembly which may have had a misalignment issue to begin with and certainly does now. Figure the bearing was designed to carry the separtating froces from the gears + some safety factor. Now you add a vibration and the oscilating loads from the imbalance and off center condition. In some cases, you can expect the bearing to fail.



I DID IT AGAIN - I really need to read the dates of the posts I reply to - just realized that this thread is really old and just got resurrected - continue on with the current portion and I look forward to seeing your results, Dave.

[Motor31]

One item about clutch spline and input shaft issues just keeps nagging at me.

For the old farts like me who grew up driving cars / trucks or even farm equipment, how many times do you recall ever having the clutch splines or input shaft splines fail on those vehicles? Why them is it such an issue for a motorcycle with far less HP and torque than our old cars?

I was the typical teenager who when I got my car tended to dump the clutch...a lot. You betcha I broke clutches but not once did the splines fail or did the transmission output shaft spline wear thin. Those clutches were never ever lubed except at the original factory assembly. The failures I had were the obvious points where the disk broke from the spline hub and flung springs through out the bell housing. I always knew a week in advance when I was going to need a clutch plate when I heard the first spring go zinging around the housing. That was on an old beat up well used and MUCH abused 61 Dodge with an engine bigger than the factory built it for. :D As a matter of fact, not one of the manual transmission cars I had in my early yeas of driving Dodge, Mazda rotary and Datsun vehicles ever had a clutch or input spline fail even past 100k miles.

Why now 40 to 60+ years later with all of the advances in metallurgy can't BMW put a clutch and input shaft in their bikes that does not require maintenance like those old jobs did? Even my old 75/6 never had an issue and I rode that thing like I stole it for well past 60k miles.

[bikerfish1100]

One item about clutch spline and input shaft issues just keeps nagging at me.

For the old farts like me who grew up driving cars / trucks or even farm equipment, how many times do you recall ever having the clutch splines or input shaft splines fail on those vehicles? Why them is it such an issue for a motorcycle with far less HP and torque than our old cars?

Why now 40 to 60+ years later with all of the advances in metallurgy can't BMW put a clutch and input shaft in their bikes that does not require maintenance like those old jobs did? Even my old 75/6 never had an issue and I rode that thing like I stole it for well past 60k miles.

this is from the other current input shaft thread (currently just a spot or 2 below this one in the Oilheads forum):

"Also quite important is that most (if not all) automotive input shafts have a reduced diameter tip which seats in a pilot bearing in the crank or flywheel. The fact that we have a throwout bearing / push rod running through the middle of the input shaft prevents this on our bikes in order to minimize the bell housing length (front to rear)."

it is not exactly a case of apples and oranges being compared here.

[nrpetersen]

...because it isn't just a radial load. It is an off center rotating mass with an out of balance condition in an assembly which may have had a misalignment issue to begin with and certainly does now. Figure the bearing was designed to carry the separtating froces from the gears + some safety factor. Now you add a vibration and the oscilating loads from the imbalance and off center condition. In some cases, you can expect the bearing to fail.Ball bearings can take radial and thrust loads. They are shimmed in a transmission to remove the radial clearance so the gears run more quietly.

Out-of-balance in itself doesn't give a reason for bearing failure - unless the forces of the out-of-balance are beyond the bearing's capacity.

Single row ball bearings do not like overturning moments (moments about either transverse axis). For that reason they are usually paired and preloaded with another single row bearing.

Double row bearings can take overturning moments, but they are really just two single row bearings with common inside and outside races and not very far apart.

[40427]

All interesting comments on the transmission,clutch,bearings ;

How ever,
All the racing schools teach that you should do your braking before you enter a curve/corner and be in the gear at entry that you need/want when you exit.

I enterpret that to mean down shift and brake almost at the same time. Matters not if it's a race track or on the street, you need to maximize control at all times. Being in too high a gear on exit can lead to a multitude of problems for the pilot as well as the machine.

All done smoothly it's like watching a ballet move.:D

[Red100RT]

Well, I wasn't going to say anything but I can't resist. The fact that you can't support the trans input shaft end with a bearing no doubt is an issue in this spline wear thing. I also think this makes it most important that we operate these machines at higher RPMs as in 4 to 5K+ when cruising, avoid un-smooth shifts, never pop the clutch on take offs (wheelies), and do a spline lube now and then (35 or 40K miles) and go to the trouble to remove the trans so that you can do a good cleaning and inspection before doing the lube. I think the only alternative to all this is wait for the wet clutch.

[nrpetersen]

Misalignment causes a spline loading/fretting cycle every revolution of the engine, and it makes no difference if the transmission is in neutral or in gear

[Red100RT]

Misalignment causes a spline loading/fretting cycle every revolution of the engine, and it makes no difference if the transmission is in neutral or in gear

I simply find it hard to believe that this supposed misalignment is the problem. I cannot believe that BMW would produce motorcycles with such a glaring defect. Trans input shaft splines will no doubt wear out like other parts wear out. I believe we can prolong this wearing process by operating the bikes correctly and performing preventive maintenance.

[bikerfish1100]

I simply find it hard to believe that this supposed misalignment is the problem. I cannot believe that BMW would produce motorcycles with such a glaring defect. Trans input shaft splines will no doubt wear out like other parts wear out. I believe we can prolong this wearing process by operating the bikes correctly and performing preventive maintenance.

yes (vis a vis the "performing preventative maintenance" aka spline lube, will help). but misalignment has been documented and recorded (see the links from Pelicanparts.com threads) in some small number of the R1100 series bikes. Those appear to be the bikes that have repetitive shaft failures, with initial input shaft failures happening at something under 35-40K miles. It seems that if you make it to 50K with no failure, it is likely only a lube issue from then on- as long as the clutch assembly get reinstalled correctly.

[nrpetersen]

I simply find it hard to believe that this supposed misalignment is the problem. I cannot believe that BMW would produce motorcycles with such a glaring defect.This is not a "glaring" defect. The engine transmission spline system like this has to be aligned within a couple of thousands since both the clutch side and the transmission side have no compliance to allow the parts to align perfectly. Now when you look at the potential stackup and accumulation of tolerances between the main bearing bore, the alignment pins, to the transmission input shaft bearing housing bore, you get to .002 inch runout real quick. The shaft extensions on both parts are very short so there is no radial compliance from shaft cantilever.

Maybe the housing parts are being further deformed by casting clamp fixtures during machining, maybe during initial factory assembly, and maybe by subsequent field dis-assemblies with hammer and tongs mechanics that don't happen to have precise clutch disk alignment tools. These parts are big and holding these kinds of tolerances in a thin-wall aluminum casting is difficult at best.

At any rate, in this application, such a misalignment will cause the spline tooth load to cycle once per revolution of the engine whenever the clutch is let out.

We have assumed so far that this is a BMW manufacturing accuracy problem. I'm trying to raise the point that it just may be happening in assembly - factory or field. And that once it has happened, that the spline could be hammered by piston forces and a loose rear main bearing.

I have my R90/6 apart this winter for spline lube etc. It failed the splines at ~30,000 miles 16 years ago - they appeared very dry. I replaced everything then, but noted that this winter they seem distressed already despite only adding another maybe 15,000 miles to it. Actually the clutch housing on the R90 has less potential for a machined-in alignment problem in that it has a large diameter pilot that was probably cut at the same time as the transmission input bearing housing. But I'm going to try to float everything in as precisely as possible.

[Red100RT]

Now I can go along with that theory about half assed just get it out the door shops not taking the time to do it right. The clutch or flywheel alignment tool may not be being used or used correctly. I called a dealer recently and asked about purchasing the BMW alignment tool and all I got was, "You don't even want to know how much that costs". I never did get a price. I have heard that some shops just go by eyeball. I prefer just doing all I can myself and if I make a mistake well, that I can live with but not when I pay some shop upwards of $100/hr. BMW has been building bikes with this dry clutch arangement since day one and maybe a tranny gets out the door once in a very blue moon with the alignment pins not set perfectly but no way does that explain all the failures we read about on these boards. Anton says when he replaces an input shaft with clutch he has never had a repeat failure. What does that tell you? Doesn't tell me the tranny cases are all bad. That and I know <@!!* well that some failures are due to these bikes not being ridden right as in lugging along at 50 mph in 6th gear, etc.

Airhead splines were not plated until around, I think, about 1985 so lubrication and cleaning was pretty important along with proper assembly with the alignment tool if the clutch is changed. I just did my '81RT splines and they were bone dry with light surface rust. Bike only has about 8K original miles and had a spline lube at a dealer in 1999 with only 700 miles on the clock. The dealer had the bike in storage since new and finally got clear title when I bought it with those 700 miles showing. Those splines showed no trace of lubrication last week when I opened it up. Not saying the dealer didn't do the job but I wonder. He also replaced the fork seals. Funny how they weeped from the time I bought the bike. I drained the forks last week and the fork oil that came out looked like well used (black) and sludge contaminated crank case oil from a diesel pick-up truck. I live in a pretty dry climate and have a heated (65 degree) garage so I don't have a condensation problem. Makes me wonder.

[40427]

Listening to all this talk about use or non-use of a clutch aligning tool makes me wonder, who the heck is hiring these so called technicians ?

Any self respecting tech i have ever met had the proper tools to do the job if the shop could not provide them.
If I were hiring a tech, the first thing i want to see is his/her tool box. Just the condition of the outside can give you an indicator of the type of wrench you are dealing with.

Ant tech i have dealt with was pretty darned proud of their tools , did not loan them out, cleaned them after a days work and stowed them where they were at hand easily. Those things are his lifeline and are bloody expensive on the pittance they earn with them.

Crikey would you go to a doctor that had a hammer as his main tool ?

[Red100RT]

Not going to mention names but I have to wonder about a shop when the shop foreman starts in telling me that he is in a bind with over 50 bikes awaiting service and repair and whoa is me what am I gonna do??

Beemer dealer near me is Big Twin in Boise and they're a good bunch for sure so I'm not talking about them.

[40427]

Hmm, 50 bikes sitting waiting to be repaired ?

First thought ; wow all that potential cash flow just sitting there.
If I were the owner, I'd be asking my service manager a lot of hard questions.:stick

Let' see, 50 bikes waiting to be repaired , call it on average $100.00
( probably a lot more) x 50 == that's $5000.00 in cash flow during the winter ??
HUH !!!:doh

Or it could be that the customers have found a cheap way to store their bikes for the winter. Take it to the dealer, say you are not in a hurry, just call me when it's done. hehehe:blush

at the different shops I worked at or helped out at, we were not bashful about charging for storage to discourage that practice.

[nrpetersen]

.....flywheel alignment tool may not be being used or used correctly. I called a dealer recently and asked about purchasing the BMW alignment tool and all I got was, "You don't even want to know how much that costs". I never did get a price. I have heard that some shops just go by eyeball. The pricing of that alignment tool just might have been one of BMW's big blunders.

It is only a couple of lathe diameters on a piece of screw stock that are reasonably concentric. I cobbled one for my 1100RT on my old Logan lathe but probably since made it into something else.

No way should techs be made to own one. This is a shop item.

BTW - What are the diameters and lengths? Can we get a mail based loaner program going?

[Red100RT]

The pricing of that alignment tool just might have been one of BMW's big blunders.

It is only a couple of lathe diameters on a piece of screw stock that are reasonably concentric. I cobbled one for my 1100RT on my old Logan lathe but probably since made it into something else.

No way should techs be made to own one. This is a shop item.

BTW - What are the diameters and lengths? Can we get a mail based loaner program going?

Check out www.rbracing-rsr.com/bmw_clutches.html seems they sell an alignment tool for about $20 as well as an interesting clutch guaranteed to end spline issues forever more.

[AntonLargiader]

The last clutch centering pin I bought from BMW was about $35, a few years ago.

The alignment jig for the K-bikes is probably substantially more, since it's not just a pin.

[henzilla]

Are these the BMW tools we are talking about to align the clutch pack to the flywheel housing??

One of these fits 1100's, one 1150's...forget which is which at the moment
stamped in numbers:
left tool- 21 2 6707673
right- 21 3 680

Not a deal breaker price if you need one, forget the pricing, but was not enough to keep me from buying them.

Some specialty tools are pricey and not used daily, so why would an average tech buy them? Most shops have a huge tool board with every goofy tool made hanging in it's numbered spot.Some may be used once a year, some rarely as that model is not a popular model moving thru a shop anymore.
I am currently waiting on a K12 Wedge engine crank locking pin...the local dealers did not have it in their collection either. Have to have it to replace the cam chain drive sprocket.

and as Anton mentioned, the K bike jig looks expensive!

[Happy Wanderer]

While reading the RSR site I noticed the different diameters and spline counts of the various models they list. Twenty bucks is not outrageous for a proper clutch pack alignment tool if you don't have a lathe to make your own.

Interesting to note the 1100 splines are 180MM and have 24 splines (except the S model)

- Then the 1150 is smaller at 165MM but has larger splines with a 17 spline count.

- Finally the 1200 goes back to the 180MM diameter but now with a 17 spline count.

That is 3 different combinations of shaft diameters and spline counts over the 3 models. Makes me wonder why would they do that?

[JimMoore]

While reading the RSR site I noticed the different diameters and spline counts of the various models they list. Twenty bucks is not outrageous for a proper clutch pack alignment tool if you don't have a lathe to make your own.
I tried to buy one. I couldn't get them to answer an e-mail. Let me know if you have any luck.

[Red100RT]

While reading the RSR site I noticed the different diameters and spline counts of the various models they list. Twenty bucks is not outrageous for a proper clutch pack alignment tool if you don't have a lathe to make your own.

Interesting to note the 1100 splines are 180MM and have 24 splines (except the S model)

- Then the 1150 is smaller at 165MM but has larger splines with a 17 spline count.

- Finally the 1200 goes back to the 180MM diameter but now with a 17 spline count.

That is 3 different combinations of shaft diameters and spline counts over the 3 models. Makes me wonder why would they do that?

Also interesting to note that spline issues are largely absent with the 1200 models.

[Happy Wanderer]

Also interesting to note that spline issues are largely absent with the 1200 models.

Yeah.. this is what has me wondering. Perhaps they hit upon the right combination of larger diameter shaft with fewer splines that are larger and thus more robust.

I have no idea how to calculate it but I suspect the difference in contact area is significant. Maybe this has something to do with the failures? :dunno

[Red100RT]

Hello BCBeemer, I was at the Boise beemer dealer couple days ago and I think I must be loosing it because there for sure isn't an O2 sensor south of the cat. I am for sure getting old. Resisted the temptation to buy the beauty though.

You know manual auto trans have input shafts larger in diameter and very thick splines, hmmmmmm....

[Motor31]

this is from the other current input shaft thread (currently just a spot or 2 below this one in the Oilheads forum):

"Also quite important is that most (if not all) automotive input shafts have a reduced diameter tip which seats in a pilot bearing in the crank or flywheel. The fact that we have a throwout bearing / push rod running through the middle of the input shaft prevents this on our bikes in order to minimize the bell housing length (front to rear)."

it is not exactly a case of apples and oranges being compared here.

From having replaced the clutch on a couple of my cars when younger, I have to say that the input shaft on the transmission then was straight, not tapered. There was definitely a throw out bearing moved by a fork operated by the clutch pedal. Unless I am misreading the somewhat confusing excerpt you posted it sounds like apples to apples to me.

[rxcrider]

Note how the tip of this input shaft is a smaller daimeter than the spline and rides in a pilot bearing or bushing in the crank shaft (sometimes in the flywheel). This is basically how most (maybe all) automotive clutches are configured.
http://www.team.net/www/morgan/tech/clutch/clutch2.gif

On our bikes, the transmission input shaft is hollow with a push rod running through it from the thrust / throwout bearing to the diaphragm spring. The throwout bearing is located at the back of the transmission instead of riding on the input shaft like it does on a car.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-GIP9uMEHVg4/Tuebk7yvjSI/AAAAAAAADJE/Q5QiZgWgBLw/s720/trans.jpg
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-zETspDRhDgw/Tuebk_eSlwI/AAAAAAAADJE/T9Vho0y33QU/s576/clutch.jpg

The difference is that the automotive input shaft is aligned with the crank / flywheel because it is inserted into a pilot bushing / bearing in the crank or flywheel and our bikes don't get that alignment feature.

That means the stack up on your car looks like this:
Input shaft, pilot bearing, flywheel (optional), crankshaft

On our bikes it looks like this:
Input shaft, bearing, transmission housing, dowel sleeves, engine housing, bearing, crank shaft, flywheel

[nrpetersen]

Another difference is that in addition to a pilot bearing, cars almost universally have a torsional damper spring setup contained within the clutch disk, that allows a small amount of radial motion of the input shaft with respect to the crankshaft. The torque is carried by the spring system, which is slightly radially compliant.

On our bikes there is only a flex plate, which is radially very very stiff.

Q - Do all bike clutches have this flex plate? do any have the torsional damper setup?

[ANDYVH]

I believe any bike with a single plate dry clutch (BMW airheads, oilheads, Guzzis, most Ducatis, older Harleys) do not have the radial shock load springs incorporated into the clutch fraction plate. It may be a cost issue, but more likely a weight and complexity issue. Could also be a clutch pack thickness issue, as most cycle dry clutches have limited space between the flywheel and pressure plate.

[Delaware.Dave]

I'll let you all know how it turns out.

Okay, so one shaft lube operation and one hernia operation later (not related) and the bike has sat for over a week. The doctor hasn't given me the green light to ride yet, so the bike has waited. These are the things I learned from watching the technician.


The job isn't so hard that a couple of guys couldn't tackle it. Be meticulous and organized and you should be okay.
Use a service manual. We probably disassembled more than we needed to.
Digital camera. Take more pictures than you think you need. It's not like you're buying film.
That 12 year old bike did not want to come apart, and slowed our work down to twice as long as it should have taken.
Bleeding the brakes was a stone bitch for us. The rear had to be bled through 3 or 4 times, and I still haven't test ridden yet.
If you've disconnected the throttle or clutch, and in our case, spilled the rear differential fluid, then just go ahead and do the required annual service and then the bike will be fresh and ready to go.


I'm so glad that job doesn't happen often.