Traffic deaths: bikes and motorcycles

[rkasal]

The link below goes to a story of a lady who was taped in a jailhouse phone call laughing about the bicyclist she killed. Her jail term was extended after the judge heard the recording.

Before I bought the motorcycles last year, I rode a bicycle a lot and still receive emailings from the Iowa Bike Club.

Last year, one person I know was hit along with his riding partner. The driver of the truck was never charged to my knowledge. Sergei and the other fellow were thrown to opposite sides of the road.

Another fellow on a bicycle was killed less than a mile from my home while he was riding to work. At least five or six other bicycle deaths last year in the area caused by negligent and in some cases, drunk drivers.

Similarly, there were a group of Iowa motorcyclists killed also by negligent or drunk drivers. Transfer these numbers to the other 49 states and with the much larger populations, there are a lot of bicyclists and motorcyclists killed needlessly.

Does anyone else see the natural alliance we have with bicyclists? Are there any attempts to form alliances with bicycling groups both in lobbying for reasonable legislation and for driver education among other worthy goals?

Seems to me we have a lot in common with bicyclists and both groups increase their lobbying powers by an alliance.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,325146,00.html

[ltljohn]

I think the rates of bicycle accidents are worse than motorcycles simply because bicycles are generally moving much slower than the traffic. When a car comes upon them the time to react/avoid is short. People don't watch for bicycles just as they do not see motorcycles.
I do not know the experience of the riders you know that have been killed or injured but....My experience is this.
I live in a rural area that is very popular with the bicycle clubs and riders in general. What I have observed for the last 10 summers is my coming around a corner at 30mph (speed limit 40) and finding a group of bicycles filling the entire lane going 5 mph up a hill. They generally ride 3 or 4 abreast and ignore stop and yield signs cut corners and pass anywhere the want generaly ignoring good driving practices and laws. These are the same people that constantly rant that they have as much right to the road as a car but when you mention that they also have to follow the same rules of the road as a car they do not want ot hear that. I think this is partly why there are many bicycle/vehicle accidents in my area
The club riders are usually far more disciplined and stay to the shoulders and are moving faster. They also watch out for each other and warn of traffic to their fellow riders. As with motorcycles I think that rider education for bicycles would be helpful.

[RJM2096]

I could not agree with the judge more on the maximum sentence.

I think the key is stay off the roads at night on bicycles and motorcyles. The drunks come out after 7:00 pm and when they see you, they look in your direction and drive into you. Having rear lights probably make it worst.

[osbornk]

When I ride my motorcycle, there are three things that scare me the most on the crooked mountain roads I ride on. I worry about gravel on the roads, deer and people on bicycles. I go around sharp mountain curves and run up on a bunch of bicycles blocking the road as they very slowly climb the grade. They are working so hard trying to get up the mountain, they are not aware of other traffic or that they are blocking the roadway. I think it is a miracle that there are not more bicycle/other vehicle accidents. It would be a great help if they would follow the same rules that other users of the roads follow.

Ken

[ziphyr]

Hello everyone! Hey, I am an avid cyclist and competitor. Now, having said that I totally agree that cyclist should receive the same education as motorcylist (e.g: MSF courses but for cyclist). I've competed for nearly 6-7 years in duathlons, triathlons and charity rides (Ms150, Leukemia/Lymphoma, Battered women and children, Tour de Cure,etc...), I realize the importance for bicycle education. True cycling is slightly different from motorcycling but I think this has made me such an alert motorcyclist. I must say that my love for my R1100RT has overtaken my lust for my carbon frame bicycle. Did I mention that when I'm participating in the events aforementioned that the Georgia State Trooper are our escorts? It baffles me at how willing motorist and cycling follow the rules when the troopers are present(hmmm). Bicycylist really need to remain aware of their environment, as do motorcyclists at all times. I only train on cycling trails and never ride at night on the road ways on my bicycle (especially not in Atlanta:banghead ). I consider myself blessed to have a passion for motorcycling and cycling. However, enthusiast need to become educated before embarking on the dangerous roadways. Oh, if you guys are wondering, which do I prefer to ride if I had to choose...I would have to say hands down my R1100RT! I will always use my legs cycle for those suffering with illnesses for which there has yet to be a cure for, especially Multiple Sclerosis. I will always ride for you mom. God bless you all and remember to SEE!!! Ziphyr :thumb

[bikerfish1100]

i bicycle a few hundred miles each year (not a lot in serious cycle terms, but more than the avg "want to get in shape" rider). i live in a VERY bicycle conscious area- bicycle lanes on nearly all roads (other than the purely residential streets), many cycling events & races during the season, college and local clubs, etc. What i see is that the vast majority of riders DO know & follow the rules of the road. just as we ask drivers to look for us on our bikes, we should extend the concept to our looking for cyclists. :thumb

[ziphyr]

I couldn't agree with you more my friend and well said. Ride safe partner. Ziphyr:bikes :bikes

[hlothery]

i bicycle a few hundred miles each year (not a lot in serious cycle terms, but more than the avg "want to get in shape" rider). i live in a VERY bicycle conscious area- bicycle lanes on nearly all roads (other than the purely residential streets), many cycling events & races during the season, college and local clubs, etc. What i see is that the vast majority of riders DO know & follow the rules of the road. just as we ask drivers to look for us on our bikes, we should extend the concept to our looking for cyclists. :thumb

Your experience is different from what I have typically experienced. I was an avid bicyclist until my knees went away. Now, after knee replacements, I am anxious to get back on the bicycle again, for fitness primarily. Many of the cyclists in my area, however, are very snobbish. They have a hierarchy based on perceived ability, price of bike, style of clothing, etc and most blatantly ignore the rules of the road, constantly putting themselves at risk. They justify this by assuming the higher moral ground of environmental friendliness, and are quick to berate anyone who does not yield every right of way to them. They, IMHO, would not consider aligning with motorcyclists for anything. When they are finished riding, they mount their bikes on carriers and become some of the most aggressive drivers on the roadways. Then they wonder why the city will not fall all over itself making bike friendly roads and trails for their pleasure. Sorry for the rant........as you can tell, I am not enamoured with most of my fellow bicyclists in San Antonio.

[bikerfish1100]

come on up & visit the Loveland/Ft. Collins area. we've got great cycling roads, and even better motorcycling routes. Ft. Collins is pressing to become the new cycling center of the USA- we have the College Cycling Championships coming here this year in May, and there is work afoot to create indoor velo racing on a major scale.

[hlothery]

come on up & visit the Loveland/Ft. Collins area. we've got great cycling roads, and even better motorcycling routes. Ft. Collins is pressing to become the new cycling center of the USA- we have the College Cycling Championships coming here this year in May, and there is work afoot to create indoor velo racing on a major scale.

Thanks for the invite. I actually have some long-time friends who just moved to the area, and I am planning to come there to see them in the summer. Problem is, I can't decide whether to drive and take the bicycle, or ride the RT. Decisions, decisions.

PS - do they make a bicycle rack for the RT?

[Paul_F]

Before I got my K a four years ago, I used to cycle 20-30 km each morning before breakfast. However, once getting a motorcycle, I have developed a concern for my safety while cycling. At least with the K, I can leave a cage behind. Can't do that on a bicycle. They generally pass much too close, greatly reducing my comfort zone. Now I cycle only half of what I used to do, and that is done being aware of everyone around me and being prepared to hop over the curb if necessary. Riding depends on trust in others around us and on the bicycle I feel vulnerable.

[kourt999]

I live in a very bike conscious city (Austin, TX) and commute via bicycle around 80 miles per week. About once every six months some friend of mine learns that I also have a motorcycle and they are always telling me about how unsafe motorcycles are. These friends of mine invariably have children who ride bicycles, and are occasional cyclists themselves. I respond to their anti-motorcycle stance with the statement that motorcycling is generally safer than bicycling. The whole idea sounds so unbelievable to people that they can't resist debating the point. Honestly, though, you don't have to look hard to find bad examples of bicycling. I'm not saying there aren't bad examples of motorcycling out there, but the bicyclists are able to get away with it a lot more frequently.

[rkasal]

There are a lot of people here into the smug factor of bicycling. Times, price, insisting that cars yield to them, and arrogance. That's everywhere.

But the point of the initial posting was bicyclists and motorcyclists have a commonality in that we're being killed or injured by inattentive or impaired drivers. We should work together in regards to lobbying legislatures and in educating the public. At the same time, I really believe MOST motorcyclists are safer while many cyclists needlessly put themselves at risk. So perhaps some licensing requirements for cyclists?

Much of it seems to be those pretending they're Lance, getting lost in the moment as exercise is taking their mind off of the task at hand. More of it, in my opinion, is people who just don't understand the rules of the road while on a bicycle.

But again, the main point is we as motorcyclists should work with bicylists.

[bikerfish1100]

So perhaps some licensing requirements for cyclists?




say Randy, is that the Republican concept of "smaller government"?
might there be other less intrusive ways to get the safety & rules message out there?

[Bob1100RTC]

I think people should have an education coarse and licence test for using a gas grill. They can be very dangerous in the wrong hands.:dance

[flymymbz]

You folks would probably not be surprised at the contempt cagers have for bicyclists. We have several group rides in our area during the spring/summer months. Got a 911 call from a PO'd cager once, complaining about the bikes on the highway. I tried to explain to this wingnut that there was a ride going on and that he could expect bikes for the next 10-15 miles. Also tried to explain that they have as much right to the shoulder and right side of the lane as he did. He shot back that he didn't care and that if he came across one more 'idiot' in his lane, he'd run them down.

Not very smart. I did remind him that he was calling 911, which IS a recorded line and that I did have his cell phone number and with one call I could find out the cell subscribers name, address and from there, I could find out just about anything else I cared to know. And I told him that if ONE bicyclist was hit, threatened, or in any way shape or form bothered by a cage, he'd be the first person we'd come looking for.

He hung up on me.

[bubbagazoo]

I think the biggest difference between bicycle riders and motorcycle riders is the motorcycle rider is held to a certain standard of performance in order to get a license. Any bozo can hop on a bicycle and start riding on the public roads without any formal training in vehicle operations or associated legislation. You are required to demonstrate your knowledge of traffic laws, signs, etc AND demonstrate your skill at handling your vehicle to get a license to ride a motorcycle.

My biggest issues with bicycle riders in Edmonton is their attitude and in many cases lack of conspicuity. As a result of community pressure, we have a fairly extensive network of recreational trails (bike paths) in Edmonton. Most bicycle riders use them. There are those, however, who seem to think that they have to be riding on the busy 4 lane streets that run parallel to the bike paths in many parts of the city. And the distance between the bike path and the road is 10 feet. Then they ride at night, no lights (legally required in Alberta for night time riding - reflectors are not enough), on the wrong side of the road going AGAINST traffic. To top it off, they wear dark clothing and figure that they are just as visible as they would be at noon on a cloudless day. That more bicycle riders are not killed is a testament to the level of attention the motoring public actually pays to the bicycle riding community. The bicycling community would do themselves a high level of service if they realized that they are just as responsible for their own safety as everybody else is. If I cannot see you, or if you do something stupid that puts yourself at risk, it will be very hard to not run your butt over.

And if the LEOs enforced the traffic laws as tightly against the bicycle riders as they do against the other users of the roads, I think the attitude of the bicycle community would change. I know of only once instance where a bicycle rider was ticketed for running a stop sign. And the reason she was ticketed was mostly because of where she did it - right in front of an elementary school. It would have sent the wrong message had the police officer who saw her ride right past the sign not ticketed her when all the kids were witness to it.

[Bob_M]

For once I agree with RKaskal :scratch . Both bicyclists and motorcyclists are vulnerable to inattentive drivers. Both benefit from heightened rider awareness and lots of the same skills translate between the two modes. (Last time my rear wheel slid out on the motorcycle I was really glad I ride mt. bikes.) Riders are also participants in the landscape, rather than spectators. Strangers feel comfortable talking to riders and frequently surprise us with unexpected genersosity. Yea I would say they are allied passtimes.

A couple of things that would benefit both types of riders is if cell phones had GPS chips that rendered the phones inoperative at 5 MPH (Trains could get some sort of translator) And All road users should sign (in blood) a leagally binding social contract to pay full attention when they are using the public thoroughfares. The pervailing sentiment is that driving is not important enough to warrant one's full attention.

I will now return to disagreeing with RKaskal:stick :stick

[BMWDEAN]

The laughing drunk-driver-bicyclist-killer, Melissa Arrington, in jail is in my town, Tucson. It has been on the news for several days here.

http://www.azstarnet.com/ss/2008/01/23/221764-1.jpg

The judge gave her ALMOST the maximum sentence. Why the max was not handed out is a mystery to me.

http://www.azstarnet.com/allheadlines/221764

Jailhouse calls lead to longer sentence
Judge says drunken driver laughed over cyclist's death
By Kim Smith
ARIZONA DAILY STAR

A recorded jail conversation in which a woman made light of the bicyclist she had killed led to her getting a longer sentence in Pima County Superior Court on Tuesday.

Two months ago, Melissa Arrington, 27, was convicted of negligent homicide and two counts of aggravated driving under the influence in connection with the December 2006, death of Paul L'Ecuyer.

She could have received as few as four years in prison, but Judge Michael Cruikshank sentenced her to 10.5 years, one year shy of the maximum.
Cruikshank said he found a telephone conversation between Arrington and an unknown male friend a week after L'Ecuyer was killed "breath-taking in its inhumanity."

In a call from the Pima County jail, the man told Arrington an acquaintance of theirs believed she should get "a medal and a (expletive) parade because she had taken out "a (expletive) tree hugger, a bicyclist, a Frenchman and a gay guy all in one shot."

Arrington laughed. When the man said he knew it was a terrible thing to say, she responded "No, it's not."

Instead of laughing, Cruikshank said, Arrington should have been rendered silent by such shocking and disgusting sentiments.

According to Deputy Pima County Attorney Jonathan Mosher, L'Ecuyer, 45, was riding his Schwinn in the 5-foot-wide bike lane about 8:40 p.m. on Dec. 1, 2006, when Arrington swerved off the road, struck him and then continued for 800 feet before stopping.

A blood test taken 2 1/2 hours after the collision showed Arrington, who was driving on a suspended license for a prior DUI, had a blood-alcohol content of 0.156 percent, nearly double the DUI level. A witness to the crash testified Arrington swerved off the road twice before the collision.

In addition, Mosher said just six months before the crash Arrington attended a Mothers Against Drunk Driving event where victims of alcohol-related crashes described the impact it has had on their lives.

During Tuesday's hearing, Mosher played two jail phone conversations — the one that offended Cruikshank and a second one in which Arrington mentions the witness to the crash.

When Arrington is told she was charged with manslaughter based, in part, on the woman's statement to police about the swerving Arrington responds, "If she had so much of an issue, maybe she should have called (911) sooner, huh?"

Mosher said that indicates Arrington blames the witness for the crash.

He said Arrington's testimony showed she has yet to take responsibility for her actions. Arrington testified that she had only three drinks, Mosher said, when her blood-alcohol level clearly shows she had more, and she claimed she hit L'Ecuyer while reaching for hand sanitizer but the evidence shows that's not true.

Mosher urged the judge for the maximum sentence, noting the prior DUI conviction and the emotional impact L'Ecuyer's death has had on his family.

L'Ecuyer was an exceptional person "who lived his beliefs," Mosher said.

Mosher told the judge that minutes before he died L'Ecuyer ate a meal to celebrate a new job and made his final journal entry.

L'Ecuyer jotted down "new month, new job, new life," Mosher said, his voice choking with emotion.

L'Ecuyer's mother, Barbara Nordlund and siblings, Jeanine, Larry and Anne, described him as a man with "enormous ideals" who gave out Thanksgiving Day baskets to the needy, rode in charity events and passed out fliers every Martin Luther King Jr. Day urging people to write down their dreams and goals.

Assistant Pima County Public Defender Michael Rosenbluth told the judge his client has never been "cold, callous or flippant" about L'Ecuyer's death and has always felt remorseful for her actions.

Rosenbluth said the jail calls aren't her true sentiments.

Arrington said words can't begin to express how she feels about what she's done.

Once she's out of prison, Arrington said she hopes to share her story with Mothers Against Drunk Driving or her own advocacy group.

[rkasal]

For once I agree with RKaskal :scratch . Both bicyclists and motorcyclists are vulnerable to inattentive drivers. Both benefit from heightened rider awareness and lots of the same skills translate between the two modes. (Last time my rear wheel slid out on the motorcycle I was really glad I ride mt. bikes.) Riders are also participants in the landscape, rather than spectators. Strangers feel comfortable talking to riders and frequently surprise us with unexpected genersosity. Yea I would say they are allied passtimes.

A couple of things that would benefit both types of riders is if cell phones had GPS chips that rendered the phones inoperative at 5 MPH (Trains could get some sort of translator) And All road users should sign (in blood) a leagally binding social contract to pay full attention when they are using the public thoroughfares. The pervailing sentiment is that driving is not important enough to warrant one's full attention.

I will now return to disagreeing with RKaskal:stick :stick

Hey, Portland is the best city in the United States! :hug

[Rollifahrer]

It's a total shame and tragedy, but what has happened to freedom of expression? The judge describing how should have responded to an unsolicited comment by a third party smacks of thought control.

It sucks that people maim and kill other people and don't regret it enough, but increasing punishment because of an in-PC response to someone elses insensitive and disturbing comments is going too far.

She was originally sentenced based on facts presented in court. If that tape was not played in open court with her attorney available to deal with it, then I think the judges action, although obviously very popular, was capricious.

She probably should have recieved the max in the first place (was a jury involved in the sentencing?), but I'm disturbed by the breach of judicial process.

As far as motorcycles, bicycles and cages, I think bicycles should be grouped with pedestrians and other human powered vehicles. The ability to avoid, and consequenses of, collisions with pedestrians, joggers, rollerbladers, scateboarders... is much better than bicycles vs. cage, delivery truck, cement truck, semi...

Our throttles, linked to 40 - over 100 HP, are a safety device that allows us to occupy a proper place in traffic, maintain and alter that place. We're all on 2 wheels and cage drivers claim they don't always see us, and some just plain don't like us, but our issues are related to always being in traffic at traffic speeds. Bicycles are sometimes in traffic, sometimes not, and almost never at the same speed. Unity among all two wheelers is a good thing, but I think the differences are too great to lump us all together. It might be better to get all motorcyclists on the same page regarding safety, visability, and sharing the roads with cages. I think the bicyclists should lobby for more HPV lanes, including paved shoulders on rural roads wide enough to accomodate bicycles.

[535is]

It's a total shame and tragedy, but what has happened to freedom of expression?
Nothing at all. She was perfectly free to say what she wished, and she did so. Unfortunately for her, that has an evidentiary impact on her sentencing.
The judge describing how should have responded to an unsolicited comment by a third party smacks of thought control.

It sucks that people maim and kill other people and don't regret it enough, but increasing punishment because of an in-PC response to someone elses insensitive and disturbing comments is going too far.
So how do you think the sentencing would have changed if the deceased were described as 'a wife beater, a Texan, and a jock'? Drop your neocon revulsion for 'PC' and look at the simple facts and the legal process. This conversation was simply one more brick in the wall of her remorselessness and refusal to accept responsibility. Or maybe you think that feeling no remorse and shifting blame for your actions is the better thing to do.
She was originally sentenced based on facts presented in court. If that tape was not played in open court with her attorney available to deal with it, then I think the judges action, although obviously very popular, was capricious.

She probably should have recieved the max in the first place (was a jury involved in the sentencing?), but I'm disturbed by the breach of judicial process.
Since you clearly don't understand the judicial process, I would resepctfully suggest you base your objections on something else.
As far as motorcycles, bicycles and cages, I think bicycles should be grouped with pedestrians and other human powered vehicles. The ability to avoid, and consequenses of, collisions with pedestrians, joggers, rollerbladers, scateboarders... is much better than bicycles vs. cage, delivery truck, cement truck, semi...
IOW, "Get those damn slow things out of my lane!" Thank you for your input. Hell; let's just ban 'em altogether wherever we, in the hinterlands, can't afford to add 10-foot bike lanes to all our roads.

FYI, pedestrians walk down my road every single day. Sometimes it's even me. There are no sidewalks and the shoulder is often overgrown. Where do we walk to stay out of your way? We walk on the road on the left, as we are supposed to. What if we should decide to use a bicycle? Oh; that's right. We should spend that time lobbying the township board for bike lanes.
Our throttles, linked to 40 - over 100 HP, are a safety device that allows us to occupy a proper place in traffic, maintain and alter that place. We're all on 2 wheels and cage drivers claim they don't always see us, and some just plain don't like us, but our issues are related to always being in traffic at traffic speeds. Bicycles are sometimes in traffic, sometimes not, and almost never at the same speed. Unity among all two wheelers is a good thing, but I think the differences are too great to lump us all together. It might be better to get all motorcyclists on the same page regarding safety, visability, and sharing the roads with cages. I think the bicyclists should lobby for more HPV lanes, including paved shoulders on rural roads wide enough to accomodate bicycles.
Do you ever get outside of town? :huh

[Bob_M]

Hey, Portland is the best city in the United States! :hug

Yet there are still LOTS of haters. 2 cyclists were recently killed by motorists, and morons in cars clash with morons on bikes all the time. Squid idiots warrant an other thread. :wave

[Rollifahrer]

[QUOTE=535is;285324]Nothing at all. She was perfectly free to say what she wished, and she did so. Unfortunately for her, that has an evidentiary impact on her sentencing.

So how do you think the sentencing would have changed if the deceased were described as 'a wife beater, a Texan, and a jock'? Drop your neocon revulsion for 'PC' and look at the simple facts and the legal process. This conversation was simply one more brick in the wall of her remorselessness and refusal to accept responsibility. Or maybe you think that feeling no remorse and shifting blame for your actions is the better thing to do.

You missed the part where I said she probably should have got the maximum sentence in the first place. I think there is an Orwellian element to the story. Maybe there was more activity behind the scenes, but it doesn't seem right that the judge can arbitrarilly change a sentence.

Since you clearly don't understand the judicial process, I would resepctfully suggest you base your objections on something else.

I don't understand everything about it, but I don't think judges should be able to just change a sentence with no process involved. If it was changed after more court procedings, then it's not a breach.

Do you think if it had come to the judge's attention that the woman sobbed uncontrolably for days, weeks months, that her extreme remorse would have moved him to lessen her sentence?

IOW, "Get those damn slow things out of my lane!" Thank you for your input. Hell; let's just ban 'em altogether wherever we, in the hinterlands, can't afford to add 10-foot bike lanes to all our roads.

No, not at all. But it's clearly better for the "slow things" to move with other slow things. In Columbus it's illegal to ride bicycles on sidewalks. A guy got a ticket a couple weeks ago for riding his bike on a sidewalk on a street with a 45 mph speed limit. There's no shoulder, just the lanes and a curb. I think bike riders should work on changing that kind of stupid thinking.

FYI, pedestrians walk down my road every single day. Sometimes it's even me. There are no sidewalks and the shoulder is often overgrown. Where do we walk to stay out of your way? We walk on the road on the left, as we are supposed to. What if we should decide to use a bicycle? Oh; that's right. We should spend that time lobbying the township board for bike lanes.

Hey, I'm not a "bike using roadway hater". I always give them lots of room, pedestrians, too. It's just that bikes and other HPV-users, and pedestrians, have are more closely related than bikes and motorcycles. That was the original topic.

Do you ever get outside of town? :huh[/Q

Been all over Europe. Germany especially has excellent bike lanes built into sidewalks in urban areas, and parallel to a lot of highways. Ever been to Pasco County Florida? All new roads have room for bikes. The Trans Canada Highway has extra wide shoulders, even in the hinterlands of Saskatchawan. One day I saw more coast to coast bicycles than motorcycles. Obviously every lonely county road can't have sidewalks or bikelanes, but in urban and suburban areas where bicycles have to share the road with much larger vehicles at speed limits around 45 mph, that's exactly what they need. You don't need all that in the hinterlands, because...you're in the hinterlands with lower traffic density, less (or no) rush hour congestion, but mainly people in the hinterlands are nicer, more relaxed and more respectful and it's easier to catch a break. But I think the majority of bicycle-car crashes are closer to cities. Separating motor vehicles from HPV's is a good idea close to cities, but I think I said that already.


I (still) think bicycle riders groups would be better served to get bikes farther away from motorized traffic than linking up with motorcycle groups.

[Bob_M]

There is blog that captures and links to the Portland bicycle community.

http://bikeportland.org/

[535is]

Nothing at all. She was perfectly free to say what she wished, and she did so. Unfortunately for her, that has an evidentiary impact on her sentencing.

So how do you think the sentencing would have changed if the deceased were described as 'a wife beater, a Texan, and a jock'?
You missed the part where I said she probably should have got the maximum sentence in the first place.
I did not miss it, but I found it odd. So, does that put you in the 'hangin' judge' school of thought, where nobody gets a break?
I think there is an Orwellian element to the story. Maybe there was more activity behind the scenes, but it doesn't seem right that the judge can arbitrarilly change a sentence.
It is not only right, it is common. That is what judges do. If you ever attend a criminal sentencing after an agreed plea between the defendant and the prosecution, you will see the judge tell the defendant that he may get the maximum sentence despite any agreement he may already have with the prosecutor. In a practical sense, a judge will only very rarely stray from the prosecution's recommendation, but a situation like this one, with new evidence being submitted, is one of those times. Another of those times is when the defendant takes the opportunity to make a statement and rips the prosecutor, the judge, and the court system because of what they are doing to poor little him. Bad idea. DAMHIK.
Since you clearly don't understand the judicial process, I would resepctfully suggest you base your objections on something else.
I don't understand everything about it, but I don't think judges should be able to just change a sentence with no process involved. If it was changed after more court procedings, then it's not a breach.
And therein lies your misunderstanding. Judges almost invariably do have that discretion in sentencing.
Do you think if it had come to the judge's attention that the woman sobbed uncontrolably for days, weeks months, that her extreme remorse would have moved him to lessen her sentence?
It's happened. Now, in a case like this where she obviously has a drinking issue, it would take remorse coupled with a genuine attempt to address that issue, but it is quite possible to convince a judge to mitigate a sentence based on remorse.

[Rollifahrer]

Hey 535is,

Thanks for the kinder, gentler reply.

I concede I don't know enough about judicial process and that case in particular to make the assertions I made. I thought a verdict and sentence would be similar to judgement and damages, ie not all that easy to get them changed.

Now, I also don't know much about the olfactory process, but I know when something stinks. I understand citizens are stripped of many rights when convicted, and monitoring communication of felons, especially those incarcerated, is necessary. But I still have a problem with people spying on each other, and using information about thoughts, feelings and verbal expressions of such as grounds for punishment. (Under the spreading Chestnut tree, I sold you and you sold me. Orwell, 1984). I'm sure my point is lost because she is so totally unsympathetic, but I'm looking at process more than outcome and it seems that even felons should have a right to express personal feelings and beliefs. Obviously that's not the way it works, and that part of it doesn't smell all that bad since most* people in prison are victims of their own choices.

The part I think really stinks is that she was sentenced to 4 years for killing a guy, and to 6 years for verbal expressions of how she felt about it. In a purely quantitative sense, her level of remorse was treated as a greater crime than drunk driving and killing someone.

* Some people in prison are true victims. In New York a 17 year old named Marty Tankleff (per 60 Minutes report last Sunday) was given 50 years to life for killing his parents, and a large element of the prosecution and sentence was his obvious lack of remorse. Turns out he wasn't remorseful because he didn't do it. Using the subjective criterium of remorse is a very slippery slope, I think.

Looking forward to your comments on those positions,

[BubbaZanetti]

I (still) think bicycle riders groups would be better served to get bikes farther away from motorized traffic than linking up with motorcycle groups.

maybe this is possible where you live, but i know it certainly isn't where i reside.

i think the biggest problem with bikes and cars mingling is the perception that a person on a bike is just getting "in the way" keeping me from where i need to go, very quickly, in my car or truck. if people would just chill out, realize a bicyclist is a temporary slow down, safely maneuver around them, and continue on their way, i think things would be fine. sure, there's plenty of idiot bike riders, but a lot of things bike riders do that people in cages thing are "annoying" are perfectly legal and acceptable.

learn to share, it'll help calm your nerves.

[535is]

Hey 535is,

Thanks for the kinder, gentler reply.
My bronchial infection is getting better and I've coughed up fewer lung parts this week.
I concede I don't know enough about judicial process and that case in particular to make the assertions I made. I thought a verdict and sentence would be similar to judgement and damages, ie not all that easy to get them changed.
Maybe you missed that sentencing had not yet occurred when the judge found out about this. So, he didn't really change a sentence already passed; he changed his mind about one he was about to pass.
But I still have a problem with people spying on each other, and using information about thoughts, feelings and verbal expressions of such as grounds for punishment. I'm sure my point is lost because she is so totally unsympathetic, but I'm looking at process more than outcome and it seems that even felons should have a right to express personal feelings and beliefs.
In many criminal statutes, remorse is a sentencing element because the criminal offense itself has an element of intent. IOW, you meant to do something bad and you either admitted it or the state managed to prove it. So the next logical step in the analysis is, are you sorry about what you did? This is important in a 'rehabilitative' system, which is ostensibly what ours is supposed to be. The logical extension is, if you are not sorry, maybe sitting in prison for awhile longer will change your mind. Even if it doesn't, at least you're locked away from the rest of us for a longer time.
The part I think really stinks is that she was sentenced to 4 years for killing a guy, and to 6 years for verbal expressions of how she felt about it. In a purely quantitative sense, her level of remorse was treated as a greater crime than drunk driving and killing someone.
Reread the original story. She was not "sentenced to four years"; she could have been sentenced to as little as four years, but as I mentioned above, she had not actually been sentenced at all yet. It is possible that the judge had planned on 9½ years and simply added one for the lack of remorse. It is equally possible that he planned on 5 and doubled it. Without his expressed analysis, we do not know.
* Some people in prison are true victims. In New York a 17 year old named Marty Tankleff (per 60 Minutes report last Sunday) was given 50 years to life for killing his parents, and a large element of the prosecution and sentence was his obvious lack of remorse. Turns out he wasn't remorseful because he didn't do it. Using the subjective criterium of remorse is a very slippery slope, I think.
The Federal Sentencing Guidelines is a thick tome of legislative requirements meant to remove such subjectivity - but it doesn't. Among other things, you get credit in your sentencing for how quickly and how sincerely you express your remorse, even including the period before your trial. So one question for a defense attorney and client is, how do you vigorously defend the case without expressing remorse or increasing your ultimate sentence if you're found guilty? You can't. If you think the subjectivity you see at the state court level is insane, talk to a good federal defense attorney about the insanity in the Guidelines.

The only good thing I can say for those wrongly convicted is that they need to consider themselves lucky we do not have as much, or as quickly implemented, capital punishment as some would prefer. OTOH, locally we not too long ago released a wrongly convicted rapist who, a few short months later, pretty clearly did commit an assault and murder (http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/predators/steven_avery_halbach/2.html). This leaves me with no good answers - and leery of those who believe they have a simple solution.

[Rollifahrer]

maybe this is possible where you live, but i know it certainly isn't where i reside.

i think the biggest problem with bikes and cars mingling is the perception that a person on a bike is just getting "in the way" keeping me from where i need to go, very quickly, in my car or truck. if people would just chill out, realize a bicyclist is a temporary slow down, safely maneuver around them, and continue on their way, i think things would be fine. sure, there's plenty of idiot bike riders, but a lot of things bike riders do that people in cages thing are "annoying" are perfectly legal and acceptable.

learn to share, it'll help calm your nerves.



Derek,

My nerves are fine. I don't have any problem slowing down, waiting for a proper time to pass, and giving a wide berth.

In Ohio bicycles are entitled to a full lane, but try to excercise that right! I have, and have paid the price as a target of road rage.

That's the dilemma: bikes are legally permitted to be in traffic, but in practice they're at great risk. Close to my home the speed limit on a 2 lane road is 50 mph, the pavement on the right side of the fog line ranges from 13" - 0 ", with mailboxes protruding into the "air space" above that meager pavemnet every couple hundred feet. I see bike riders suffer on that piece of road and can't help wonder why not add another 2 feet of pavement on new roads and when roads are resurfaced.

I would rather see wide paved lanes separated from the roadway for all non-motorized traffic like I've seen in a lot of places. In many European cities these lanes are divided into bike lanes and lanes for other types of wheeled users (roller blades, joggers w strollers) and pedestrians. Of course they aren't practical everywhere, but it's the best way prevent car-bike collisions.

In 1979 there were almost no curb cuts or ramps for wheelchairs. When the American with Disabilities Act was passed, it was said (and I agreed) that many provisions were impractical and a waste of resources. Now, every single street corner in Columbus and most suburbs have them...and who uses them? In addition to wheelchairs, they accomadate all sorts of wheeled devices: delivery dollies, rolerbladers, strollers, lawyers with giant briefcases, salesmen with samples....kids on bikes (even though technically illegal) can cross at corners and not have to dart into the street at a driveway to avoid jumping curbs.

I 'm not a bicyclist, other than a few laps around my neighborhood or the very rare jaunt up that scary road I mentioned, and it's not my "cause", but more people ride bicycles on public right of ways than use wheelchairs on them, and more should be done to ensure they can make safe and enjoyable passage without the threat of inexperienced, inattentive, insensitive, or incapicitated drivers usurping their right of way and forcing them off into bushes, ditches, parked cars,mailboxes....

Even if it's not seen as practical today, that can change with changes in priorities over time. I tend to subscribe to the "...see things as they could be, and ask 'why not'..." school of thought. I think the original context was civil rights, but why not apply it to civil engineering? The disability advocates did.

[Rollifahrer]

Maybe you missed that sentencing had not yet occurred when the judge found out about this. So, he didn't really change a sentence already passed; he changed his mind about one he was about to pass.




I did indeed misread/misunderstand that fact, which was the crux of my concern with the story.

Thanks again for illuminatining aspects of criminal justice I have been fortunate enough, thus far, to avoid.

[bobh41]

535is, and Rollifahrer. I've been educated by your thoughtful and careful dialog. I don't know enough about the judicial system; there's virtually nothing in the popular media to describe it as I've known or as you have revealed (I've been on two juries).

I really appreciate your very respectful exchange. Thanks for the rare read.