latest project: "Old Cro" the R-evolution

[vanzen]

The design work is done (after years of research, sourcing parts, and saving funds) and the actualization of my design obsession has finally begun. First order of business: a track-worthy chassis. Like a new father, I'm anxious to share pictures of the new-born, and entertain thoughts and comments.

Progress so far:

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff169/53vanzen53/vanzen3rdrightsideSAneck.jpg

design: vanzen
frame fabrication: Randy Illg & FRAMECRAFTERS

stay tuned for further development..

more pics at ROCKERBOXER:http://www.rockerboxer.com/page/page/5324463.htm

[The_Veg]

I can't wait to see the progress!

[sumran]

:lurk

[kbasa]

:lurk

Pass the salt.

[vanzen]

A composite thumb-nail of my blueprint drawings:

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff169/53vanzen53/X-FRAMEWEBOLDCROdev.jpg

kbasa: I could load a disk with development sketches that plot the course of this result !

[lkchris]

Another innocent Airhead bites the dust.

Makes the remaining intact ones more valuable, I suppose.

[DADODIRT]

What do you have in mind for the front suspension?

[crazydrummerdude]

Another innocent Airhead bites the dust.

Makes the remaining intact ones more valuable, I suppose.

Do you ever have positive input?

I wouldn't have done it myself, but :bikes

This is going to be a cool thread to watch.

[vanzen]

Another innocent Airhead bites the dust.

Makes the remaining intact ones more valuable, I suppose.

actually, the R80GS frame was a salvage.
as are MOST parts used in this project – recycled!

... and don't think that the R68 sitting in my living room is anything but bone-stock! LOL.

[vanzen]

What do you have in mind for the front suspension?

a Marzocchi set salvaged from a K100, of course.
wheels will be tubeless BMW hubs e-bay-salvaged from a GS and an R100R... (this IS fun!) laced to more appropriately sized rims. the rear hub is from a Paralever ekwipt GS and will be machined to fit the Mono final drive.

[The_Veg]

Interesting about the salvaged frame.

So with a new frame being made out of the old one, will you get to title it as a new bike? That would be pretty cool- you could (in certain states) assign a VIN of your own creation, and legally name the make/model whatever you wanted to.

You could have a lot of fun with that.

[vanzen]

note marking on swing arm, "92 R100RS":

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff169/53vanzen53/vanzentransverseuppertrans.jpg

one more bite for the R-evolution.

resulting geometry:
"I assembled the front end and wheels. The steering head angle is 26.5 degrees with the bike sitting on the bare wheels and the forks slid up in the triple trees 1 inch. With tires it should be about the same or slightly less (26 deg). The trail figures out to 3.96" at 27 deg and 3.69 inches at 26 deg so we are right in the ball park." – Randy Illg

On matching wheel centerline and frame centerline – relating to why BMWs like to drift to the right, and this one won't:
"The engine sits about 1degree offset from true centerline (it points slightly to the left when looking down). This brings the thrust lines of the engine in line with the driveshaft centerline. The rear wheel is on centerline and the swing arm must be all the way to the right. It all works with no binding." – Randy

[baldwithglasses]

Do you ever have positive input?

I wouldn't have done it myself, but :bikes

This is going to be a cool thread to watch.


No kidding, crazydrumerdude. Mein Gott!



On the reals, that's a fantastic re-cycling (Har! I yam FUNNY! Har!) of old technology. I can't wait to see more!

Now maybe he could tag-team with floridaroadkill..

[lostboy]

Have you tried getting the motor and gearbox out since buiding the frame?

[vanzen]

Have you tried getting the motor and gearbox out since buiding the frame?

simple answer: No...
The eng/trans won't need to come out until the basic main-frame fabrication is complete. What you don't see yet, and what happens next, is that the right lower rail (yes, just one) will be 'cut out' and made to be removeable to allow that task.

[Markus]

Do you ever have positive input?

I was wondering the same thing.

The Seagull technique.....Swoop in, crap on everything, fly out. :laugh

[sgborgstrom]

Kent knows his airhead stuff so don't dismiss him too lightly.

He's also (for better or worse) a purist when it comes to all things airhead...something that isn't always appreciated when you are in the midst of hotrodding something, but will be invaluble 10 years down the road when you decide to do a period correct restoration of a "classic" 1984 R100RS.

Steve

[Markus]

Kent knows his airhead stuff so don't dismiss him too lightly.

He's also (for better or worse) a purist when it comes to all things airhead...something that isn't always appreciated when you are in the midst of hotrodding something, but will be invaluble 10 years down the road when you decide to do a period correct restoration of a "classic" 1984 R100RS.

Steve

Not dismissing your man Kent, just a general "lighten up, Francis".

I've had my wars with the vintage Triumph crowd over 'chopping' everything is sight, so I completely understand the gentleman's point....just don't agree with the delivery. (not this one particularly, but the previous 99 as a whole) :)

[vanzen]

Interesting about the salvaged frame.

So with a new frame being made out of the old one, will you get to title it as a new bike? That would be pretty cool- you could (in certain states) assign a VIN of your own creation, and legally name the make/model whatever you wanted to.

You could have a lot of fun with that.

you know, I am not familiar with the specifics of the law in Michigan regarding "assembler's titles".
Guess it's time to find out ...

[bikerfish1100]

fwiw- i like the project. stiff frame = mo' bettah handling- and one of the things that airheads lacked was a suitably stiff frame.
but then, i like things like this too....
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q13/bikerfish1100/MOA%20rallies/rogersmotosport.jpg

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q13/bikerfish1100/MOA%20rallies/rogers2.jpg

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q13/bikerfish1100/MOA%20rallies/rogers1.jpg

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q13/bikerfish1100/MOA%20rallies/rogersmsport2.jpg

I believe Roger's motto is "nothing is sacred".

[vanzen]

I always suspected a John Player Norton fairing would work well with a Type247. First time I've seen it done. I think...

Pages and pages of boxer cafe and race bikes:http://www.rockerboxer.com

[vanzen]

eng/trans removal: The frame will be cut behind the rear eng mount and at some point on the down-tube at the front of the frame. Modified 'half-lap lug's will allow the lower right frame rail to be removed and secured in place. Half-lap lugs are a traditional solution and have been used on Type247 race bikes and other BMW 'raised engine' machines, as well as on numerous (non-BMW) production models.

1/2-lap splice:

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff169/53vanzen53/vanzen12lapframesplice.jpg

[woodgrain]

The bikes that Roger Rueben brought to Spokane were certainly unusual in their paint schemes and performance improvements(?). It wasn't that long ago (OK it was) that most BMWs IMHO were black and boring. Change is a difficult thing for some individuals to grasp.

Woodgrain

[kbasa]

Jeez, Louise there's some beautiful fabrication in that.

[BEinIN]

What a beautiful piece of work!! :bow :bow
Having been involved in the design, fabrication and build of "one of a kind" industrial equipment. I can only wonder, how many bar napkins and restuaraunt placemats have been accumulated with sketches of various thoughts and ideas?
:thumb

[vanzen]

What a beautiful piece of work!! :bow :bow
Having been involved in the design, fabrication and build of "one of a kind" industrial equipment. I can only wonder, how many bar napkins and restuaraunt placemats have been accumulated with sketches of various thoughts and ideas?
:thumb

simple answer: HUNDREDS + + !!
although, since I find napkins difficult to file after a night at the pub ...
sketches have been generated mostly on Illustrator and Photoshop...
files of them. My websitehttp://www.rockerboxer.com started as a method to store / share the images I had collected of BMWs that were raced and / or altered for racing.
... But I do in fact have some placemats and napkins, too.
some pretty elaborate ones regarding subframe design ...LOL.

[RJM2096]

I like the idea of someone being creative. All used cycles need not be restored to original. There is no doubt that enhancing the line benefits the image of the whole line. Am looking forward to your progress.

Hey, could you take tons of video and maybe create a 1/2 hour show the for Speed Channel? It would be nice to see BMW MC given some air time. Contact Corbins, maybe they could help.

[BEinIN]

simple answer: HUNDREDS + + !!
although, since I find napkins difficult to file after a night at the pub ...
sketches have been generated mostly on Illustrator and Photoshop...
files of them. My websitehttp://www.rockerboxer.com started as a method to store / share the images I had collected of BMWs that were raced and / or altered for racing.
... But I do in fact have some placemats and napkins, too.
some pretty elaborate ones regarding subframe design ...LOL.

Somehow I just knew there was :drink involved :D
Looking forward to the next part of the build.:lurk

[vanzen]

Somehow I just knew there was :drink involved :D
Looking forward to the next part of the build.:lurk

I see that looks like "black beer" – Bell's Kalamazoo Stout, my favorite !

[BEinIN]

simple answer: HUNDREDS + + !!
although, since I find napkins difficult to file after a night at the pub ...
sketches have been generated mostly on Illustrator and Photoshop...
files of them. My websitehttp://www.rockerboxer.com started as a method to store / share the images I had collected of BMWs that were raced and / or altered for racing.
... But I do in fact have some placemats and napkins, too.
some pretty elaborate ones regarding subframe design ...LOL.

I can just picture:brow the waitress or bar maid standing in front of your table with a disintrested look on her face whilst you attempt to sketch a fleeting thought on a soggy napkin with the pen or pencil you've barrowed from her.
:bar

[vanzen]

I can just picture:brow the waitress or bar maid standing in front of your table with a disintrested look on her face whilst you attempt to sketch a fleeting thought on a soggy napkin with the pen or pencil you've barrowed from her.
:bar


Yes. Fortunately I know her and can use her pen anytime...

[12bswayed]

Vanzen,

I admire your skills: design, creativity and mechanics!! ;)

[ultracyclist]

Vanzen,
you have guts!

What do you do in real life?

[vanzen]

Vanzen,
you have guts!

What do you do in real life?

This isn't "real life" ?

How depressing.

[kreinke]

A composite thumb-nail of my blueprint drawings:

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff169/53vanzen53/X-FRAMEWEBOLDCROdev.jpg

kbasa: I could load a disk with development sketches that plot the course of this result !

That has to be one of the most elegantly designed frames I've ever seen! Torsional rigidity will be the rule of the day! If there are any Motorrad engineers seeing this from the old days I bet they're saying :doh "Why didn't I think of that!"

I personally think you should paint the frame a contrasting color from the rest of the motorcycle to highlight it. If the bike is going to be black, paint the frame red like a Ducati.

[vanzen]

[QUOTE=kreinke;277379]That has to be one of the most elegantly designed frames I've ever seen! Torsional rigidity will be the rule of the day! If there are any Motorrad engineers seeing this from the old days I bet they're saying :doh "Why didn't I think of that!"

Many reasons would complicate the use of such a frame in production. Starting with construction cost, packaging of all the components necessary for legal road use would be another, and finally, the market – how many traditional BMW riders would be interested ? (the R1200S was introduced, and the market asked: where's the panniers ? the SO says the back seat isn't comfortable – the model is not a big seller... Oddly, I own one).

In the late 1960's when the Type247 frame was introduced, design criteria was quite different. The demands of a 60hp engine, tire & braking technology available, and the status of knowledge regarding chassis design and dynamics formed the result. Also, in all fairness, the engineers chose as a design goal, a 'flexible' frame that would perform equally as well on ALL kinds of ROAD SURFACES, as opposed to one that would work best on the race-track. By the early '80s, BMW was looking to discontinue the Boxer, and, as a consequence, development curtailed. (remember the R1 concept ?)

I'm sure the engineers were aware of 'what could be done', and designed what best suited the 'needs' as defined by production and market demands. (although that may be optimistic – since Udo Gietl patently rejected the special race frames provided by the BMW factory in the early '70s after a few outings, and hired Rob North to design one that actually 'worked'...)

The frame designed by Rob North and raced by Butler-Smith in the late '70s was as similar to my design as yesterday's technology allowed, and (at least superficially) quite similar at that.

[kreinke]

I'm sure that with todays laser cutting and hydroforming technology this frame would be economical to produce. If it succeeds I hope you have the gumption to blueprint, and sell these frames. Surely there's a machine shop with a laser cutter or waterjet that would take on the task.

I see a real market in the "custom cafe racer" segment.

[vanzen]

I'm sure that with todays laser cutting and hydroforming technology this frame would be economical to produce. If it succeeds I hope you have the gumption to blueprint, and sell these frames. Surely there's a machine shop with a laser cutter or waterjet that would take on the task.

I see a real market in the "custom cafe racer" segment.

LOL. I know that market pretty well ! I also know of several concerns in Europe that DO market race frames and 'performance packages' that include frame upgrades or custom frames. (visit my web-site http://www.rockerboxer.com to know what is available).
Consequently, I know the costs involved for a limited production and what the quite focused 'old BMW custom cafe segment' might be willing to spend ...

[Boxerkuh]

:lurk :lurk :whistle :beer :rocker

I love it and will continue to come back....

[vanzen]

Yam TZ125 seat-base and a Duc F1 upper fairing arrived UPS from Airtech Streamlining today. these two pieces, and a Laverda 750 SFC style aluminum gas tank hammered out by Evan Wilcox will be the sum total of body-work for the OldCro project.

A quick photo-shop sketch:

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff169/53vanzen53/seattankfit.jpg

[Rapid_Roy]

Very nice work. I think it will be great. :lurk

[vanzen]

1 step back, 2 steps forward
One always hopes that a project can proceed quickly & smoothly to it's conclusion ... RIGHT !

There's always a demon lurking somewhere in the shadows to thwart the best of plans and attempts ! No project runs to completion without glitches, eh ? The front shock mount worked perfectly with the donor-Duc-mock-up shock ... Not so with the first Ohlins intended to replace it – interference with the perpendicular reservoir. Not so with the second – parallel reservoir and adjusters, but still a poor fit ...

so the entire back of the frame comes off ...

new brackets made ...

frame rails re-cut and re-placed ...

and, finally, we are back on track to "make it right" and just about almost to that stage of finish ... where we were 2 weeks ago ...

I thank "the gods of speed" that Randy is a patient man and a consummate professional.

1 step back, and 2 steps forward – swing your partner, and here we go.

The Ohlins is now at home with a "new & improved" front mount, the cross-brace above the swing-arm will be re-placed ... and soon ... on to the sub-frame !

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff169/53vanzen53/vanzenohlinsfit005.jpg

[bmwrn]

thank you for sharing your work in progess. I always appreciate craftmanship.:thumb

[vanzen]

Is that a reference to Team Incomplete ?
Glitches and dance steps be damned. We have a main frame ...
and a big dog whos name is not known to me ... yet.
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff169/53vanzen53/vanzenJan20001A.jpg
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff169/53vanzen53/vanzenJan20004A.jpg
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff169/53vanzen53/vanzenfinframe003.jpg

[Boxerkuh]

Vanzen, at least your project is well protected... but I thought it would be by a boxer... :laugh :laugh :laugh looks lit a mix of great protection, maybe boxer/pit mix....:laugh
I love it!!:whistle :dance :lurk

[vanzen]

so I could give the pooch some credit on the website.


LOL. but, yes. a boxer would be most appropriate !

[PAULBACH]

WARNING! This is supposed to be humor!

How come it always looks so easy on Orange County Choppers? :bolt

[sumran]

WARNING! This is supposed to he humor!

How come it always looks so easy on Orange County Choppers? :bolt

Vanzen's will look easy after the editor is done!:whistle

[vanzen]

WARNING! This is supposed to he humor!

How come it always looks so easy on Orange County Choppers? :bolt

I watched those clowns cut the backbone out of a frame on one episode ...
No frame table ...
Not even fixture or clamp one to hold the headstock in a vertical plane ...
let alone ANYTHING to hold an alignment of any sort ...
JUST SITTING THERE ON THE LIFT !
They whacked it apart with a sawz-all, and welded in a curved replacement ...

"Now THAT looks AWESOME !" Pauly says ...

ROTFLMAO

I'm not much of a "chopper" fan, but I do actually appreciate the "art form" ... and there ARE some good builders out there contributing to that genre – but these OCC jokers aren't them ! ! !

[davidswanson]

I am interested in the idea of a boxer motor in a modern frame like you are haveing fabricated. Would your builder consider making a small production run if folks are interested? I would like to hear what your riding impressions after you get it running.

[vanzen]

I am interested in the idea of a boxer motor in a modern frame like you are haveing fabricated. Would your builder consider making a small production run if folks are interested? I would like to hear what your riding impressions after you get it running.

Yes, I would think that could be arranged, ping me off-line with specifics and I'll put together some facts.

[davidswanson]

Great Vanzen,

I am following your build with great interest and when you have it on the road or track and can evaluate the results I will try and round interest for a small production run. This is a great idea you are going to realize.

[vanzen]

First order of business is the aluminum sub-frame (to carry the rear mount for the gas tank, Yam TZ125 FRP seat-base, electrics, and 160#s of my sorry a$$). Now in progress.

Then the frame comes home. At this time, I'll do a comparative weight analysis with a stocker, preliminary assembly for fit, and consider misc. brackets, and etc.

Apart once again for a trip to powder (Exotic Coatings, Romulus, Mi http://www.exoticcoatings.com/index2.html ...)

I'll continue to post pics & progress here.

[vanzen]

OldCro says farewell to Union Ill.
My gratitude & appreciation to Randy, Carson, & FRAMECRAFTERS for a JOB WELL DONE !
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff169/53vanzen53/vanzenX-comp001.jpg

[vanzen]

...finally, back at home and in the "living room" where it is warm even on the coldest of Michigan winter days ... the OldCro gets fitted with an Airtech Duc F1 fairing ... some major cutting and re-shaping required to get the FRP to skin the OldCro's skeleton ... kinda painful to take a cut-off wheel to all that expensive new glass ! NOT ! What they say about broken eggs and omelettes is true !

The established relationship of the fairing and the frame will be necessary to devise a mounting:

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff169/53vanzen53/Croatschoolhouse.jpg

.. so where to get aluminum tubing stock to fab a fairing mount – uh, without buying it, eh ?

Bearing in mind that I am the consumate pack-rat, I thought and remembered:
13 years ago when I first moved into the schoolhaus, the previous owner had left some "crap" in the garage, stuff he just didn't want to haul away, I suppose. There were some bundles of shingles, 1/2 cans of paint, misc. lumber, the usual crap ... and in the rafters, hanging in a jumble, the remnants of a badly landed hang-glider that the PO had flown and crashed and resolved to save and repair and never did ... now where did I trashstash that damn thing ?

... Right where I had dropped it when I first cleared the garage 13 years ago as it luckily turns out, in the weeds, next to an old ceramic kiln and a barrel of coal used to fire the forge.
Enough straight and salvageable alloy tubing to do the job + a few more, I suspect !
Sometimes, life is good, and then there's just no stoppin' you !

[baldwithglasses]

What's the latest on the build?

[rinty]

Vanzen:

You have to get a nicer milk crate to put that exquisite frame on. :)

Rinty

[The_Veg]

Since Vanzen doesn't post here very often, I hope he won't mind me speaking for him (he posts a bit more in another forum where I hang out). The short story is that he's been pretty busy with work lately. He's in trades and the work can be feast-or-famine. The upside is that once the work slacks off again, he might have some more cash to spend on getting the bike closer to finished.

[jlsmith37804]

I shuddered when I saw what you were suggesting to do to this icon of engineering. Not because it was sacrilege, but in anticipation of the response of the guardians of purity. Wasn't disappointed either.

Good job, fine work. Let the sparks fly! Twenty years from now, the collectors will be ho-hum at yet another garden tractor, but bidding high for an authentic piece of "in the day" racer mods, ie, the HD "board trackers"

[knary]

:lurk

[vanzen]

Since Vanzen doesn't post here very often, I hope he won't mind me speaking for him (he posts a bit more in another forum where I hang out). The short story is that he's been pretty busy with work lately. He's in trades and the work can be feast-or-famine. The upside is that once the work slacks off again, he might have some more cash to spend on getting the bike closer to finished.

last stone was set ... and now I'm laid-off ... so back to work !

engine parts are ordered for powerplant #1 – a K4V liter engine.
(K4V specific 312 cam, phosphor-bronze front cam carrier, sump extension w/ external oil filter, and etc...)

anyone have a clean used pair of R100 nikasil cylinders, size "B" to sell or trade ????
or a NON-dampened drive shaft ????

assembly of the engine will allow the misc bits and brackets to be placed,
and be assured that all fits together as a package / as expected.
(looks as if the battery will be tucked up under the trans ...)

I'm quite anxious to get this project underway ...

Rinty, you'll be happy to know that the bike now sets on appropriate jack-stands – black ones. LOL!

pic of modified timing chest and Omega crank-mount ignition:
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff169/53vanzen53/timingchest-Omega.jpg