Crossword Conundrums

[lamble]

I love my weekend crosswords, or rather I did. I'm now frustrated by clues which rely on my indepth knowledge of American culture. There isn't any depth to my knowledge of American culture, so I'm frustrated by what appear to be simple clues, for example. NY Times 11.11.07:
Broadcast with Baba Booey, with "The".
or,
"Hollywood Square" line.

As much as it annoys me when someone leans over and gives me an answer to a clue I've yet to read-I really hate that don't you-I accept that there are some things where I need help.

So, perhaps you do too.

Can we use this thread to post any clues we are stuck on and draw on the combined intellect of the group?
Funny Louis of early TV: three letters and the middle one could be P. See only three insignificant letters, but what's common shared experience to you folk, is just a frustrating hinderance to me...help!

[SNC1923]

This is frustrating.

Baba Booey is a reference to a cast member on the Howard Stern show. How to interpret that I don't know.

The most famous Hollywood Squares line would be "Circle gets the square" or something like that.

Louie may be a reference to Louie Nye of the Steve Allen Show.

[sgborgstrom]

I stopped doing the NY Times crosswords for the same reason. Most recently, when in a puzzling mood I've gone to the bookstore and looked for one that had decent clues and bought that instead of doing the one in the newspaper.

Part of my commute is a 35 minute ferry ride, sometimes I read, sometimes it's a puzzle, sometimes I just sit back and watch the world go by.

[Montana]

At least you likely have a puzzle overseen by Will Shortz, who can be trusted to get it right. Our Sunday puzzle often has mistakes: Soduko was in one (it's Sudoku, dummy, there's one of these on the same puzzle page, sheesh) and "longue" instead of chaise "lounge" was in last week's. Try solving for their errors, then see how frustrated you get.

[Crow18]

At least you likely have a puzzle overseen by Will Shortz, who can be trusted to get it right. Our Sunday puzzle often has mistakes: Soduko was in one (it's Sudoku, dummy, there's one of these on the same puzzle page, sheesh) and "longue" instead of chaise "lounge" was in last week's. Try solving for their errors, then see how frustrated you get.

Chaise longue is actually the original spelling. It's French for "long chair". Not sure when it became "lounge".

[lamble]

At least you likely have a puzzle overseen by Will Shortz, who can be trusted to get it right. Our Sunday puzzle often has mistakes: Soduko was in one (it's Sudoku, dummy, there's one of these on the same puzzle page, sheesh) and "longue" instead of chaise "lounge" was in last week's. Try solving for their errors, then see how frustrated you get.


There's another guy Merl Reagle who creates for the Seattle Times and I'm guessing others. I'm also guessing he works in a freshly painted room and to be honest some of his answers are what I'd term cheating. They aren't a word or phrase, they will be for example (and I'm simplifying this for effect) A man's best friend as the clue...the answer should be dog right!, But his will be something like, mydog, or ourdog, or, adog, it may as well be, notabloodycat. Or he'll have something like ---angle (tilted) the answer is...get ready for this, it's genius...atan!!! at an angle! This one isn't made up..it was in this week's paper..I sighed when I finally got it by process of elimination

Or, abbrevs

Bloody abbreviations for something, just so the letters KXYNCGFA can come together to help him get another answer to fit. It's lazy.
It's called a crossword-see the part that says word- puzzle, not cross-phrase, or cross abbrev, or crossanythingthathappenstofitnicleytomakeiteasierf orthepuzzlesetter-puzzle

[lamble]

This is frustrating.

Baba Booey is a reference to a cast member on the Howard Stern show. How to interpret that I don't know.

The most famous Hollywood Squares line would be "Circle gets the square" or something like that.

Louie may be a reference to Louie Nye of the Steve Allen Show.

Hey thanks, The Howard Stern Show fits!

[Montana]

Chaise longue is actually the original spelling. It's French for "long chair". Not sure when it became "lounge".Ha ha ha. Tell that to both of my "English" dictionaries.

[lamble]

Ha ha ha. Tell that to both of my "English" dictionaries.

Sorry Montana, but the Collins English Dictionary agrees with Crow.
If you are going to keep the French 'Chaise' it only seems proper to keep the French 'Longue' too I suppose.

[Crow18]

Ha ha ha. Tell that to both of my "English" dictionaries.

The only dictionary I've got here is the built-in one on the laptop that comes up when I hit F12. What is it, hang on a sec... Oxford American Dictionary. It lists both "longue" and "lounge" as correct (although the spellchecker in Firefox balks at "longue"; then again, it also balks at "spellchecker"). The dictionary also gives the original spelling as "longue".

[pjsank]

That would be the 11/4/2007 NY Times

Hollywood square line : Like in tic-tac-toe - either xxx or ooo. ooo in this case.

[SNC1923]

That would be the 11/4/2007 NY Times

Hollywood square line : Like in tic-tac-toe - either xxx or ooo. ooo in this case.

Oh. . . . line as in vertical, horizontal, or diagonal, as opposed to line, as in "What's a nice girl like you doing in a place like this?"

Forest, trees, etc.

[lamble]

That would be the 11/4/2007 NY Times

Hollywood square line : Like in tic-tac-toe - either xxx or ooo. ooo in this case.


that's another example of 'cheating' as a clue setter. But thanks for the answer. Did you complete it pj?

[pjsank]

I did complete it. Been doing the NY Times puzzle for 20+ years now, so you get used to the editor's clues. Funny how when I try xwords from other papers, I flounder for a while
:scratch

[Montana]

I think a good rule for completion is: as long as you are done before the next one arrives (daily, weekly, whatever works for you).

Earlier this year I started playing weekly with a Scrabble group at the library. Look out, world, I'm learnin' new words.

[lamble]

I did complete it. Been doing the NY Times puzzle for 20+ years now, so you get used to the editor's clues. Funny how when I try xwords from other papers, I flounder for a while
:scratch

See, that instantly makes you my new hero.

:bow

[jwhite518]

Paging Mr. Abooey. Mr. Bob Abooey, please come to the white courtesy phone.

[lamble]

Paging Mr. Abooey. Mr. Bob Abooey, please come to the white courtesy phone.

Is that a cryptic clue?
I've no idea what it means, so it could be.

[MCMXCIVRS]

Plus they expect me to accept the incorrect American spelling of words like colour and honour. :stick

[adamceckhardt]

I've gotten in the habit of doing the usa today crossword online. its free, and has two modes- one which makes it easy to cheat (shows letters in red if they are wrong), and one which doesn't. Good way to pass the time when work is dead!

[sachiwilson]

Good grief.

ALL the clues that people complained about are a long-accepted part of the crossword art. I've been doing those crosswords (NY Times, Seattle Times, GAMES Magazine, the Atlantic Puzzler by Rathvon and Cox, plus many others) for decades. Get over it. If you can't figure out a clue, work on the cross-clues until something begins to make sense. And use dictionaries, encyclopedias, the INTERNET if you need to. You never know, maybe you'll learn something.

[lamble]

Good grief.

ALL the clues that people complained about are a long-accepted part of the crossword art. I've been doing those crosswords (NY Times, Seattle Times, GAMES Magazine, the Atlantic Puzzler by Rathvon and Cox, plus many others) for decades. Get over it. If you can't figure out a clue, work on the cross-clues until something begins to make sense. And use dictionaries, encyclopedias, the INTERNET if you need to. You never know, maybe you'll learn something.

As was pointed out earlier in the thread, you get used to a puzzler's style. The style here in the US is different to that in the UK, plus as was also pointed out, there are automatic word patterns that I look for based on English English spelling (I studied cryptography, so look for letter frequency patterns-and they have changed too, plus the prediliction for abbrevs ruins any consistency too).
Of course everyone works through the clues in the hope that answers will reveal possible solutions to those answers that aren't immediately obvious, but when the answer is an accronym, then it doesn't always help.

I'm not sure why you should get so angry. This thread is aimed at helping, "Get over it" doesn't help at all, so why? It's just about crosswords, not like anyone has shot your dog.

[sachiwilson]

I do British cryptics as well, and I am also familiar with Spanish, French, Greek, and Latin as necessary to answer clues in crosswords. My point is, calling clues "cheating" is inane. The clues lead to the answer; they make sense. Simply because they don't fit your idea of a clue is no reason to rag on the person that designs the puzzle.

[lamble]

I do British cryptics as well, and I am also familiar with Spanish, French, Greek, and Latin as necessary to answer clues in crosswords. My point is, calling clues "cheating" is inane. The clues lead to the answer; they make sense. Simply because they don't fit your idea of a clue is no reason to rag on the person that designs the puzzle.


Calm down...no one has questioned your ability to do these crosswords, just our own to be as smart as you.

[lamble]

I do British cryptics as well, and I am also familiar with Spanish, French, Greek, and Latin as necessary to answer clues in crosswords. My point is, calling clues "cheating" is inane. The clues lead to the answer; they make sense. Simply because they don't fit your idea of a clue is no reason to rag on the person that designs the puzzle.

I still maintain a TLA is cheating...it's cheating the puzzlee out of a properly formed word and is a lazy quick-fix on behalf of the puzzler both in terms of answer and clue creation. So is the combination of non-prime words such as, 'on' and 'a'. It's us that being cheated. I really struggle with Brit cryptics, so would welcome your help should the need and time arise, although I too find the answers needed for latin, greek, french etc... are usually based on terms I'm either aware of, or familiar with.

[sachiwilson]

Cryptics . . . well, there are a few that crack my brain at times too. As long as you can grasp the various types of wordplay in the puzzle, and can worry at them for a few days, you should be able to catch the answers in time.

Cryptics -- good ones -- should not be suscxeptible to a quick reply!

That said I'll be happy to offer any suggestions I might have if you need them.

[lamble]

Cryptics . . . well, there are a few that crack my brain at times too. As long as you can grasp the various types of wordplay in the puzzle, and can worry at them for a few days, you should be able to catch the answers in time.

Cryptics -- good ones -- should not be suscxeptible to a quick reply!

That said I'll be happy to offer any suggestions I might have if you need them.

The Daily Telegraph's weekend edition once gave an invaluable page of instructions on how to find the key components in their cryptic puzzles...if only I'd understood the explanation. I'll see if I can find a link to it.

[sachiwilson]

From The Atlantic:


The Atlantic Monthly has offered the Atlantic Puzzler since 1977. Every Atlantic Puzzler has its own theme, accompanied by special instructions. Although differently shaped diagrams and other devices may appear from month to month, the underlying method of clue-making will always be cryptic. These instructions should provide a clear introduction to this challenging world.

The important difference between standard American crosswords and "cryptic," or "British-style," crosswords is that the clues in the latter have two distinct parts. One part is a normal definition of the answer, and the other is an additional hint about the answer's literal makeup. That each clue has two references to its answer may seem a great advantage to the solver -- and in the end this is true, since the definition and the additional hint, when grasped, will confirm each other. The hitch is that the clue's message is couched in a misleading way. The definition may appear before or after the additional hint, frequently without any punctuation to mark the point of division. The challenge and fun of a cryptic puzzle is to see through the clue-maker's deceptions, to tease out the definition by rethinking -- and often repunctuating -- the clue's phrases. All appearances in a clue should be suspect; but remember that every clue has to yield a fair interpretation that directs you to the answer.

The following paragraphs will explain every basic type of device solvers can expect to encounter in an Atlantic Puzzler. The game may be bewildering at first, but determined solvers will quickly learn to recognize in each clue the hints for its solution.

1. DOUBLE DEFINITIONS

The simplest kind of additional hint in a clue is a second definition. For example, HOOD can mean "gangster" or "a cover for the head." So a clue for HOOD might read: "Cover for the head gangster (4)." (The number in parentheses indicates how many letters are in the answer.) Here is another clue of this type for you to solve: "Trim a tree (6)."

2. ANAGRAMS

A clue may show you what the letters of the answer would look like when scrambled, also giving a signal word such as "mixed," "aimless," or "fractured." An anagram clue for STEW could be "Wild West food (4)." Here is another clue of this type: "Noises in restless slumber (7)."

3. HIDDEN ANSWERS

Sometimes the answer will be hidden inside a longer word or phrase (as PLEAD is tucked inside "apPLE A Day"). Look for signals such as "caught in," "buried in," "part of," and "housed by." For example, CAT could be clued as: "Lover of birds imprisoned in Alcatraz (3)." Here's another example: "Karen always displays an engagement ring? (5)" (Though punctuation is usually mere dressing in a clue, ? and ! are traditionally reserved for signaling puns or unusual wordplay.)

4. HOMOPHONES

The additional hint may tell you that the answer has the same sound as another word or words, giving a signal such as "we hear," "so it's said," or "orally." A homophone clue for BEAR (which sounds like "bare") could be: "Animal is naked, we hear (4)." See if you can solve this one: "Vocal gossip for a lodger (6)."

5. CHARADES

A clue may break the answer into two or more convenient parts and define them sequentially, as in the game of charades. FARMING (agriculture) breaks into "far" (remote) and "Ming" (Chinese dynasty), and could be clued as "Agriculture in remote Chinese dynasty (7)." Here is another charade: "A combo on leave (7)."

6. CONTAINERS

If the answer breaks into convenient parts not side by side but one within the other, the clue may say that one part "contains," "holds," "grips," or even "swallows" the other. CALLOW (inexperienced, green) has "all" inside "cow," yielding the clue "Bovine has eaten everything green (6)." A container for you to solve: "Mr. Crosby keeps it sharp (6)."


7. REVERSALS

The additional hint may tell you that the solution when seen backward (or upside-down, in the case of a Down answer) makes another word or words. SMART (keen) is the word "trams" (railway cars) backward. Its clue could be "Keen -- railway cars in reverse (5)." Here's another: "Strike friend's back (4)."

8. HEADS, TAILS, HEARTS, BITS & PIECES

In describing a charade or container, a clue may refer to single letters or small bunches of letters, and may do this with ingenious, though literal, indications. "Head of state" could indicate the letter S (first letter of word); "donkey's tail" could be Y; "heart of stone" could be O (the central letter); "half-moon" could be mo or on (front or back half). Standard abbreviations are also employed: for example, "right" could be R and "left" could be L; "time" or "temperature" could be T; "nothing" (or "love," as in tennis) could be O; loud could be F; and "quiet" or "soft" could be P (as in music).

9. COMPLEX CLUES

Sometimes (especially with longer words) these different kinds of hints may be used in combination. But however complicated the operations may seem, full instructions will always be available for obtaining the answer. Here is one example to test your wits: "Fellow eating a rind torn from an orange (8)."

Answers to the sample clues:

1. SPRUCE (double def)

2. RUMBLES (slumber anag.)

3. ARENA (hidden)

4. ROOMER (homophone of rumor)

5. A-BAND-ON

6. B(IT)ING

7. SLAP (pal's rev.)

9. MA(NDARI)N (a rind anag. inside man)
Copyright © 1999 by The Atlantic Monthly Company. All rights reserved.

[lamble]

Thanks for that. It will prove very useful.

My only concern now is, I might turn out to be homophonic....(it don't mean nuttin,' before knickers get twisted).

[lamble]

Due to circumstances beyond my control, I missed getting a weekend newspaper witha any decent puzzles in. So can I ask if I may join in with yours and have vicarious puzzle fun?

Also, anyone want to share a particularly tricky clue, even if you found the answer yourself?

[Fritzc]

The only dictionary I've got here is the built-in one on the laptop that comes up when I hit F12. What is it, hang on a sec... Oxford American Dictionary. It lists both "longue" and "lounge" as correct (although the spellchecker in Firefox balks at "longue"; then again, it also balks at "spellchecker"). The dictionary also gives the original spelling as "longue".

Chaise longue
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
An 18th century rococo chaise longue
An 18th century rococo chaise longue
A late 19th century chaise longue
A late 19th century chaise longue

A chaise longue (IPA: /ʃɛz lɔ˜ɡ/, French "long chair") is an upholstered couch in the shape of a chair that is long enough to support the legs.

It is often also called "chaise lounge" in North America, particularly in the furniture industry. This mixed spelling and pronunciation has become well-established and can be found in American dictionaries, and is an example of a folk etymology. In modern France the term chaise longue (which means long chair) can refer to any long reclining chair such as a deckchair.

[edit] References

[Montana]

Wow. For me, a lot of the fun has just gone out of doing crossword puzzles. This reminds me of the local native plant society. I belong. I like the plants, looking at them, growing them. I don't take along a hand lens when I hike and dissect the plants or make spore prints and name all the little parts. They're just friggin' plants.

[lamble]

Wow. For me, a lot of the fun has just gone out of doing crossword puzzles. This reminds me of the local native plant society. I belong. I like the plants, looking at them, growing them. I don't take along a hand lens when I hike and dissect the plants or make spore prints and name all the little parts. They're just friggin' plants.

So, that's 'one down'.

Each to their own.:thumb

[Montana]

"One down." Ha ha ha - that's a crossword joke!

[adamceckhardt]

Wow. For me, a lot of the fun has just gone out of doing crossword puzzles. This reminds me of the local native plant society. I belong. I like the plants, looking at them, growing them. I don't take along a hand lens when I hike and dissect the plants or make spore prints and name all the little parts. They're just friggin' plants.

So... after Missoula pretty much makes it legal to smoke pot... what kind of plants do you guys look at? I think its fair to say that marijuana is a native plant over your way nowadays!:stick Couldn't help myself!

[lamble]

"One down." Ha ha ha - that's a crossword joke!

Treasure it, there aren't many of them around.

[lamble]

5 letters At Large 2003 Fox Sitcom

3 letters Hall of Famer Dawson

Any ideas folks?

[Floppp]

Wanda at Large - only saw it once, stuck in my mind for some reason.

[jwhite518]

Len Dawson - played for KC

[lamble]

Flopp and JWhite,

Thanks. In my most contrived of thoughts I'd not come close to Wanda at Large.