New K12GT's vs "Older" K12GT's

[ultracyclist]

What are the main differences between the current model and the previous one?
What are critical maintanence issues on the older ones?

Are the ergo's the same?

[john1691]

completely differant bikes, engine, suspension, pretty much everything.......you have to ride them both and see what you like better.

[cjack]

In addition to everything, lighter weight, more power, and superior handling.

[ultracyclist]

I guess I was a bit vague in what I was looking for. My fault.

The new K12GT's are awesome. And expensive. They are impressive!

I have noticed that the prices on used GT's are dropping. So I was thinking that a low milage bike in good shape vintage '03-'04 could be a good buy.

Granted every "new" edition of a model is always new and improved although air head owners will dispute that point. :laugh

Other than religious spline lube (and final drives?), did the older GT's have any major issues?

[PGlaves]

I guess I was a bit vague in what I was looking for. My fault.

The new K12GT's are awesome. And expensive. They are impressive!

I have noticed that the prices on used GT's are dropping. So I was thinking that a low milage bike in good shape vintage '03-'04 could be a good buy.

Granted every "new" edition of a model is always new and improved although air head owners will dispute that point. :laugh

Other than religious spline lube (and final drives?), did the older GT's have any major issues?

The critical point is that despite BMW's name confusion these are two totally different bikes. The old K1200GT is a longitudinal (front to back) flat four cylinder engine derived from the K100 motors introduced in 1983 (Europe) and 1985 (USA). The drive train is similar to that found in the K1200LT.

The new K1200GT is a new model with a transverse (across the motorcycle) inclined upright engine and drivetrain introduced in the K1200R in 2005. Aside from some fasteners and maybe a tire I don't think these two motorcycles share any common parts. Maybe wheel bearings. This is not a new and improved edition of the old model - it is a totaly new and different motorcycle. Why BMW chose the same nomenclature escapes me and in my opinion was a huge mistake.

The differences in power delivery are huge. The differences in weight are huge. The differences in handling are huge. But both are excellent motorcycles - but different.

Starting with the K100 in 1985 the power train on the old K series was nearly bullet proof. Electric fan motors sometimes fail from disuse and stuck bearings. Spline lube is a required periodic maintenance in my opinion. They have the same potential for final drive failure that any of the bikes with this style final drive do. I certainly would not let any old model K1200 maintenance issues deter me from owning one.

BUT - do not ride a new one and then look for an old one thinking they are the same bike. They are as different as a K75 and an F800.

[st3ryder]

..They are as different as a K75 and an F800.

Well at least the old K and new K 12's still have 4 cylinders each. :)

The older K gt's are a lot closer to the traditional "BMW" configuration, and the new K12gt, is pretty muc a gussied-up Japanese in line 4 and a dramatic departure from their heritage.

The older K's have the "Kompact Drive Sytem" of the original K series, which is automotive like, with a separate, (pre-unit) engine attached to a gear box, with a single plate dry clutch bell-housed in between. The new one is a typlical unitised modern motorcycle engine with a multiplate wet clutch which pays no homage to the past like the Kompact drive system, (ie no horizontal pistons, longitudinal crank, pre-unit etc) and therefore more efficient. This helps in part to explain the huge weight difference.

I much prefer the looks of the older Kgt/rs to the new K, but can appreciate the better drive line and suspension of the new, "old witch's dress" K. Both will need expensive-if-you-don't-do-it-yourself spline lubes, with the older models needing clutch spline lubes as well, ie even more $'s, so in terms of costs, it's a pay now or pay later proposition. I suggest you *really* do a *lot* of reseach on both models before making any decisions.

[ultracyclist]

Thank you for your honest answers.

The forum comes through again.

I think you guys just saved me from making a big mistake in that I am not much of a DIYer.

[cjack]

I much prefer the looks of the older Kgt/rs to the new K, but can appreciate the better drive line and suspension of the new, "old witch's dress" K. Both will need expensive-if-you-don't-do-it-yourself spline lubes, with the older models needing clutch spline lubes as well, ie even more $'s, so in terms of costs, it's a pay now or pay later proposition. I suggest you *really* do a *lot* of research on both models before making any decisions.

What expensive spline lube needs to be done on the new K? It seems though that all the formerly expensive, time wise, repair on the older K bikes (with ABS, etc) is gone from the new ones. There is a right angle drive off the transmission and where a splined drive shaft goes thru a seal into the drive shaft housing. I think that is all oil wet. The other end of the drive shaft goes into the final drive and you can lube that one when/if you change the final drive fluid. Takes 10 minutes.
I think the high cost of repair or maintenance from seal leaks and spline issues are a thing of the past on these new transverse four cylinder engines. It pays BMW to get with it on this new configuration if for no other reason than to eliminate the $2000 warranty repair bills from all the leaking rear seal or engine case issues on the '03 and '04 K1200 bikes. Not to mention the leaks from the clutch slave cylinders taking out the clutches on these same bikes.

[MrB]

I own an '03. I thought it was faster than stink. Then I spent some time on a couple of the newer K-bikes, the K1200R Sport and the K1200GT. When I got back on mine, it felt like a heavy, slow pig. It IS heavy, but is it slow? Of course not. It is way faster than I need, I have to be careful not to get a speeding ticket.

The newer bike is better in every way that I can think of. However, for me the question is, "are they $10,000 better?" That's about the difference in cost between a clean '04 GT and a new one. The answer for me is "no". You can spend $9K-$10K on the older model and have a lot of money left over for trips or even a second bike!

Also, it's surprising how many older K12's are for sale with just a couple thousand miles on them! That's where the smart money is, IMHO.

[BuddingGeezer]

I also prefer the looks of the older K1200GTs. IMO the new KGT and RRT are very sterile looking. Both the older KGT and RRT are sexier looking.

I own the grandfather K100LT and enjoy servicing the bike almost as much as riding it. I have found the Kompac drive system much easier to work on than Japanese inline 4s. Just like a car with 2 wheels and no hood. Looking at the new KGT it doesn't look any different than the Connie 14 or FJR.

Another queation is will the new bike run the 400-500k miles the older Ks run with proper maintainance? It's very rare for Japanese bikes to have that milage.

People keep telling me on this forum how top heavy my old K is. I guess I'm too dumb to feel it. Besides I find very little difference in or the application of 150mph vrs 155 mph.

I'm with the other guy. Give me the better looking bike and the extra $10,000. Even if I didn't do my own spline lubes, at a 40k mile interval that much dough would cover it and then some.

I like new stuff after it's gotten old.

Ralph Sims

[GregFeeler]

I have an '03 K1200RS and had the chance to spend an afternoon in Wisconsin on a K1200R Sport. Yes, they are two different bikes, but for my tastes, the differences on the new "flying wedge" K's is not always better.

First, the classic "flying brick" longitudinal engine K-bikes likely hold the world's record for reliability and life. I expect good things from the new K's, but that's yet to be seen.

Secondly, in my experience on the K1200R Sport I found it hyper, especially at slow speeds. Oh - if you want to go fast and get to "fast" fast - the new K's will fill the bill. But, I found the price of that performance came with a touchy throttle and an "anxious" feeling from the bike.

Handling on the new bikes is superb, and the ESA is just the cat's ass. However, it's going to be VERY expensive to replace in 30,000 to 50,000 miles. The bike feels lighter then it's weight, for sure.

OTOH, I wouldn't trade my K1200RS straight across for a new K of any flavor. Why? The new S is too much sport for me for long distance touring, but the new GT is really an "RT" - it's not a RS-style bike with "half-fairing". The K1200R Sport is the closest to the old RS style, so might work. Except that the old K1200's are far more stable (as opposed to agile) and more comfortable in my opinion. They never feel like they are working, whereas to me, the new bikes are like riding a Dremmel tool. On the 1,800 mile ride back home from Wisconsin I never once wished I were on the K1200R Sport instead.

However - having said all that - IF I could have a K1200R Sport in addition to my RS - I'd do that in a heart beat. :brow Great fun and an excellent bike for getting a felony speeding ticket. :evil

You should ride both bikes and see which one is for you. They are not the same and you'll like one over the other for entirely different reasons. I know riders who are madly in love with their new K's, and others with the older K1200's who like their bikes all the more after riding the new ones. Check'em out!

[cjack]

I didn't like the new K12S after I bought it. It took me about a week to like it, and then I went back and rode the K12RS. I couldn't go back. The new one did just about everything better for me. You get over the go fast feeling. I just like to hum along. We have been from Vermont to Colorado on these and they are just great. Only about a total of 29K on them so far.

[ultracyclist]

If one puts barbacks and raisers, footpeg lowering/shift mdoifications on an RS, will a person be approaching the more upright position of a GT?

I prefer a naked bike. All that plastic adds $$$$ to the price.

[GregFeeler]

If one puts barbacks and raisers, footpeg lowering/shift mdoifications on an RS, will a person be approaching the more upright position of a GT?

I prefer a naked bike. All that plastic adds $$$$ to the price.

If we're talkin' the early K1200RS/GT, then yes. The only difference between those two bikes is the handle-bar units, and the GT came with a heated seat, painted-to-match saddle bags, electrically adjustable windshield (with the larger Comfort shield standard), and those screw-on rubber air deflectors on the fairing sides.

Neither are nekkid bikes.

[From MARS]

That's how somebody on another forum refered to my 03 K12RS. It took awhile, but I finally saw the "Killer Whale" shape of my K. Now, I tell my SO that I am going to "feed" the whale when I take off for a ride. Mine eats miles.

I tried ALL of the new bikes when I was in the market. Nothing seemed to fit. Then I climbed on a used 03 KRS. The seat height was the deciding factor. I could put both feet on the ground.

Now, after putting on the bar-backs, GT windscreen, and new seat from Rick Mayer, I am extremely happy with my whale. Since the middle of May, I have fed her over 18,000 miles of roads, and she has given me tremendous pleasure.

Some of that pleasure is the result of some great advise from Greg. When Greg speaks of K's, I listen.

Tom

[GregFeeler]

Some of that pleasure is the result of some great advise from Greg. When Greg speaks of K's, I listen.

Tom

Dang, Tom - keep that up and my helmet won' fit!! :rofl

[hcmiller52]

What are the main differences between the current model and the previous one?
What are critical maintanence issues on the older ones?

Are the ergo's the same?These are two very different bikes and should never have been given the same name. I owned the older version and loved it but traded for my K1200R, which is so much lighter and easier in parking lots. Before buying the KR, i rode the new K1200GT and really didn't like it at all. The ergos are vastly different between the old GT and new. The old one layed one forward (too much for my tast, really, but lieable). The new one is old-man-bolt-upright; no pretense of sportiness here at all. The new bike is efficient, powerful, gorgeously built (if ugly in execution), and...totally vanilla. That's why I bought the K12R and threw in the amenities. It IS a true sport-tourer like the old KGT, and can carry just as much stuff just as comfortably and for as many miles at as high speeds as the new KGT.

Just my 2 cents worth, but in my old age, I've come to hate fuddy-duddy in a motorcycle and the new KGT is too fuddy-duddy old fart for my tastes. The old one was a work of art. I'm only 55; perhaps when I'm 75, I'll have a very differnt opinion. Oh, and I only ride 25-30K per year, so with more saddle time this view would be different, too, I'm sure. the stock saddles on both old and new are man killers but replacement with electric heater is pricey.

[hcmiller52]

Other than religious spline lube (and final drives?), did the older GT's have any major issues?You don't lube the splines of an '03-'04 GT. That's for early K1200RSs. Check the maintenance requirements.

[PGlaves]

You don't lube the splines of an '03-'04 GT. That's for early K1200RSs. Check the maintenance requirements.

Just because BMW forgot to mention that in their little maintenance schedule doesn't mean it ought not be done. Mechanically, the system and pieces are the same.

Omit at your own peril.

[hcmiller52]

Just because BMW forgot to mention that in their little maintenance schedule doesn't mean it ought not be done. Mechanically, the system and pieces are the same.

Omit at your own peril.Paul, I have tremendous respect for the depth and breadth of your wisdom and had it out with my dealer over this point (Max BMW). BMW insisted this maintenance was totally unecessary and the few that failed because of a lack of lubrication were replaced under warrantee. Further, it's my understanding that this isn't done on ANY of the new bikes. On these earlier GTs, BMW also changed the brake fluid replacement interval from 1/2 years to 2/4 years, as the result of (they say) improved sealing in the system. Some things do improve. If I had to worry about all my splines, I'd be swiching to brands with chains/belts.

[ultracyclist]

oy veh.

Now we have a fight.

"To lube or not to lube, that is the question" apologies to Will Shakespeare.

[PGlaves]

oy veh.

Now we have a fight.

"To lube or not to lube, that is the question" apologies to Will Shakespeare.

I'm not going to fight with anybody on this issue. Each owner has to decide what to do, and make their own decisions. On our bikes the single disk dry clutch hubs get lubricated whether BMW thinks I need to do it or not.

Certainly if one fails within the warranty they will replace things - but usually they go about 40K to 55K before serious symptoms happen. "So sorry - out of warranty." If a dealer told me that it wasn't needed I would ask them to put that in writing so I would have recourse when it failed after the warranty period.

BMW has not listed this as a "required" maintenance for a long time. Yet I've replaced a few clutches soley due to worn hubs found after poor shifting complaints. I've had the honor of replacing both clutches and input shafts which were rusty, worn, and pitted due to lack of lubrication.

BMW hates those magazine comparisons where 75,000 or 100,000 miles worth of scheduled maintenance is costed out - between say a BMW, a Honda, and a Harley. The last one I saw was a K1200LT, Gold wing, and Harley something published in MCN. In order least cost to highest cost they came in BMW, Honda, Harley. But one spline lube would have put BMW last place.

[ultracyclist]

No offense was ever intended by me.

I just never thought that my thread would lead to a major disagreement on spline lubes, etc.

[SheRidesABeemer]

I own an '03. I thought it was faster than stink. Then I spent some time on a couple of the newer K-bikes, the K1200R Sport and the K1200GT. When I got back on mine, it felt like a heavy, slow pig.

Slow heavy pig? Obviously you didn't move up from a K11LT...now that's a....well you know...no offense to the nice members who like theres.

I took the "new" GT out...I think it LOOKS like my old LT. I can go much faster than I need too on my '03 GT, and I just love how it looks. :thumb

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2038/1950484568_a2df5b4bd8_o.jpg

[BuddingGeezer]

If the old K bikes need te clutch and FD splines to be lubed and the engineering and design on the latter generation K1200 RS/Gt is the same, why wouldn't they need the lube service?

Based on things I have heard motorcycle dealers (BMW included) tell their customers, I put very little credibility in their advice. When I hear a BMW owner brag about about dealer serviced, I wonder about that bike.

Many times the motorcycle company will not allow enough time on the flat rate to complete repairs for the dealer to make a profit. If that's the case, why would you expect the dealer to tell you that you need a service that is going to cost him money? If that's the case on a spline lube, the dealer knows that most customers will not ride the bike long enough for the splines to fail. It's the next owner that gets the bill.

I thought my K100LT did not need the clutch spline lubed untill I did it and a K75 last week. Was I wrong!!! The bike shifts up and down soooo much better. My cost was maybe $2.00 worth of Honda Moly 60 and 2 days of wrenching, that I would have been doing something anyway.

It is no skin off Paul Glaves ass or money out of his pocket if someone doesn't believe him. He's just trying to help.

I have been a member and BMW owner 1 year and I have never seen a more argumentative group in my life.

Ralph Sims

[From MARS]

I have been a member and BMW owner 1 year and I have never seen a more argumentative group in my life.

Ralph Sims[/QUOTE]

Yeah,but once you throw out the chaff, there is a lot of good advise and information here, too.

Tom

[BuddingGeezer]

I have been a member and BMW owner 1 year and I have never seen a more argumentative group in my life.

Ralph Sims

Yeah,but once you throw out the chaff, there is a lot of good advise and information here, too.

Tom[/QUOTE]


I agree. The most valuable aspect (for me) of BMW MOA membership is the advise and information on this forum. It is well worth the annual dues.

My point is that some tend to dispute the advice of people that 'have been there, done that.'

Also, dealers are not always your best sorce of information. The local BMW dealer's mechanic told me he had no idea of what I was talking about, when I asked a fan switch question on a K100. He thought it was part of the Motronic computer (model doesn't have Motronic). He said I knew more than he did.

A Suzuki dealer told my friend that 3000 miles were all the rear brake pads lasted on a 2006 S83. Told him that when he past the dealership, they would see his brake light on, and he rode with his foot on the brake. His inner caliper piston was stuck, I fixed it for him. How stupid did that dealer think he was?

Glaves, Elienberger, Diaz and a couple others, I place in the "EF Hutton" club. "When EF Hutton talks, I listen" (a 30 year old isn't going to get this.) I'm better than the local dealer on a K100/75, and these guys are better than me.

Nuff said.

Ralph Sims

[st3ryder]

...I have been a member and BMW owner 1 year and I have never seen a more argumentative group in my life.

Ralph Sims

:laugh A BMW owner for 1 year and not seen a more argumentative group? Well, I guess that's your experience, and, well, not to argue, but I think the ladies and gents here are very wise in more than a technical sense. The decorum demonstrated by the "owner-engineers" when sharing and "debating/defending" their valued experiences, is much appreciated. Far more light than heat. :thumb

[theLuz]

Slow heavy pig? Obviously you didn't move up from a K11LT...now that's a....well you know...no offense to the nice members who like theres.

I took the "new" GT out...I think it LOOKS like my old LT. I can go much faster than I need too on my '03 GT, and I just love how it looks. :thumb

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2038/1950484568_a2df5b4bd8_o.jpg

You are exactly right, lady. They stopped making the K1100LT in ~1997 and didn't replace it until 2006. I now has the new GT, but I still love my old K1100LT. The old K had better passenger ergonomics and better wind protection. I sure like the ponies on the new GT, though. Life is good.:kiss

[MrB]

Slow heavy pig? Obviously you didn't move up from a K11LT...now that's a....well you know...no offense to the nice members who like theres.

I took the "new" GT out...I think it LOOKS like my old LT. I can go much faster than I need too on my '03 GT, and I just love how it looks. :thumb

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2038/1950484568_a2df5b4bd8_o.jpg

I feel the same with regards to both speed and looks. I'm just saying my '03 didn't seem quite so fast after riding one of the newer models. I'm not impressed by the latest/fastest whatever to hit the streets. I also think the older GT in Orient Blue is about the classiest bike on the road.

[hcmiller52]

If the old K bikes need te clutch and FD splines to be lubed and the engineering and design on the latter generation K1200 RS/Gt is the same, why wouldn't they need the lube service?

Based on things I have heard motorcycle dealers (BMW included) tell their customers, I put very little credibility in their advice. When I hear a BMW owner brag about about dealer serviced, I wonder about that bike.

Many times the motorcycle company will not allow enough time on the flat rate to complete repairs for the dealer to make a profit. If that's the case, why would you expect the dealer to tell you that you need a service that is going to cost him money? If that's the case on a spline lube, the dealer knows that most customers will not ride the bike long enough for the splines to fail. It's the next owner that gets the bill.

I thought my K100LT did not need the clutch spline lubed untill I did it and a K75 last week. Was I wrong!!! The bike shifts up and down soooo much better. My cost was maybe $2.00 worth of Honda Moly 60 and 2 days of wrenching, that I would have been doing something anyway.

It is no skin off Paul Glaves ass or money out of his pocket if someone doesn't believe him. He's just trying to help.

I have been a member and BMW owner 1 year and I have never seen a more argumentative group in my life.

Ralph Sims
I've been in the hospital for the past two weeks and unable to participate in the forum (or any other meaningful activity). During the time, I did wrest with Paul's comments on lubing and have to say I am a believer. It's just so tough to mentally deal with the thought of having four shaft-drive bikes and the associated costs, either to pay to have the work done or to do it myself with very little available time.

Curt

[ultracyclist]

Get well soon!

I am surprised that there is not a Triumph in your stable of bikes.

[hcmiller52]

Get well soon!

I am surprised that there is not a Triumph in your stable of bikes.Thank you very much for the good wishes. I have a neuro-muscular disease called myasthenia gravis and went into what's called a myasthenic crisis. This meant I was unable to breathe, went unconscious, had to be intubated, cathetered, tube fed, etc. I woke up a week later and am now home with my girlfriend, recovering. While my disease can affect limbs in some of its victims, in my case it's just the chewing and swallowing that are affected. This allows me an otherwise normal existence.

That's sort of a long-winded segue into saying that you need to live life well, not necessarily to the fullest. For me, this includes my motorcycling. I've live for two-wheeled travel all my life and just started motorcycling three years ago. This year I rode a not-unrespectable 25,000 miles, making full use of my machines. While I might like (love) to have a Speed Triple in my garage, it just isn't practical for me.

I've become so bonded to my dealer - Max BMW (NY) - that they are a part of the whole equation. Owning a bike requires so much maintenance at my mileage level and, as a busy professional without the time to wrench myself (though I am quite capable of doing so), I appreciate being able to drop my bike off for service in the morning, pick up some beautiful new bike as a loaner, go off to work and come back to pick up my ride at my convenience. I'm never gouged, always given straight advice and treated well. Yeah, I pay a price, but at this stage in my life I consider the price well worth the reward. The quid pro quo for my loyalty is impeccable service and respect to me and my buddies I've brought there. Last month I was able to pick up a new X-Challenge ABS for under 7K delivered. The same goes for all my purchases. I just haven't got anything to complain about.

Recovering from my very first life experience with unconsciousness, let me say how important it is to fill your life with the positives, enjoy the comraderie of a group like this and appreciate the wisdom and advice of the Paul Glaves' of the world.

Happy Holidays and thanks again.

Curt

[PAULBACH]

Good to know you are on the mend. Looking forward to some touring in the Adirondacks. I hear the north country is getting hammered as we speak with about two ~ three feet of snow.

I'm guess 90 days and we will be out and about IF global warming cooperates.

Keep mending! And now back to our regularly scheduled GT thread.

I had one and sold the machine. It was not as much fun to ride as my K75. The GT had tons of power and was the perfect long distance touring machine if only the autobahn was available.

:type

[lostboy]

As everyone notes, these are two very different motorcycles. I can't picture giving up my '03 RS for the new GT. I find the new bike buzzy, uncomfortable and visually unappealing (I think it's ugly). About the only thing I like about the new bike is it's saddlebags.