Engine Ice Engine Coolant

[bbqshrimp]

OK... more questions... I have been running Engine Ice Coolant in my dirt bikes and witness a serious drop in running temp. As my K12S seems to kick on the fan during city riding, does anyone have experience in running Engine Ice in a K-Bike?

http://www.engineice.cc/products.html

[lostboy]

I haven't used "Engine Ice", but have used Redline's "Water Wetter", a similar product, in my K1 and K1200 It definetely helps.

[PGlaves]

Haven't looked at Engine Ice but did look at Water Wetter. It is a surfactant which reduces surface tension at the molecular level which allows better contact between the coolant and the water jacket - hence improved cooling.

There are upsides and downsides, of course. It is frequently used in race bikes because if it leaks it doesn't slicken the racetrack like anti-freeze would. It has almost no anti-freeze properties so use to prevent freezing in cold weather is not an option.

I can see where it might be advantageous in trail bikes and such where slow going in lower gears can cause overheating. I am puzzled as to its advantages in a typical BMW street bike however.

It might help to mask other cooling system problems but I don't see where in typical use it is particularly needed.

[motoedde]

OK... more questions... I have been running Engine Ice Coolant in my dirt bikes and witness a serious drop in running temp. As my K12S seems to kick on the fan during city riding, does anyone have experience in running Engine Ice in a K-Bike?

http://www.engineice.cc/products.html

The K is watercooled and has a thermostat that is designed to open at a certain temp/pressure...how would a choice in coolant/mystery stuff/plain old water make a noticeable difference in cooling the bike? Switching thermostats to a lower opening temperature/pressure would have more of an impact, no?

[PGlaves]

The K is watercooled and has a thermostat that is designed to open at a certain temp/pressure...how would a choice in coolant/mystery stuff/plain old water make a noticeable difference in cooling the bike? Switching thermostats to a lower opening temperature/pressure would have more of an impact, no?

Here is the pedantic answer. The heat is generated in the combustion chamber and transfers to the metal engine parts - notably the block and the heads. (Piston too but it is oil cooled from underneath) The job of the cooling system is to carry the heat away from these parts and transfer it to the atmosphere. The liquid coolant is the medium used to gain heat from the metal engine parts and to carry it to the radiator. The coolant heats the radiator fins, and they are in turn cooled by the air moving past them. Thus the heat starting in the combustion chamber is transferred to the air at the radiator.

If any of the steps in the process are not optimal then the process of cooling suffers. So a clogged radiator core that retards the flow limits cooling. Or a layer of crusty bug juice on the fins insulates them from the air flow and limits cooling.

What a surfactant does is alter the boundary layer where the coolant is against the metal by reducing surface tension and allowing more water molecules to be tightly against the metal water jacket in the engine. This allows the coolant to absorb heat from the metal quicker. It also has the same effect in the radiator - allowing the heat from the coolant to transfer to the metal radiator more efficiently.

Now - here is the rub. Normal engine coolants - anti-freeze - contain surfactants which make it a much better coolant than plain water. But in the race track environment where slippery anti-freeze is banned, racers were using plain water, or water with a little soap in it. So Water Wetter was formulated and marketed specifically as a cooling surfactant where water was being used because anti-freeze could not be.

Surfactants work a lot better than water, there is no question about that. Whether they work better than regular coolant is open to long debate. And even if they do, whether they are necessary, or just masking crud in the cooling system or crud on the outside of the radiator, or poor flow through hoses, or a bad thermostat makes for an even longer and unresolvable debate.

The funniest thing is that some people argue they can tell it works because the bike runs "cooler." Presumably they mean coolant temperature and that would say it is transferring heat to the radiator better. Others have observed that it works because the coolant is hotter - meaning it is absorbing heat from the engine better.

In reality if it absorbs heat from the engine better and transfers it to the radiator better the running temperature of the coolant should stay at just about the same temperature as it did otherwise, regulated by the thermostat. But there would be fewer hot-spots in the engine. But you can't measure all those hot spots so how well it is working on your bike is unknown no matter how many times you measure coolant temperature.

Now, on an engine in a lab, with enough temperature sensors at enough locations on and in the engine, you could prove something. I once saw this kind of testing comparing a surfactant to plain water. But I have not seen such tests comparing a surfactant to quality ordinary anti-freeze coolant.

[motoedde]

Thanks for the detailed explanation BUT one clarification...
Are you saying that how quickly it(coolant/water/etc.) absorbs the heat is not as important as how quickly the heat is transferred/dissipated?

If so, I agree...a properly operating cooling system even using water as its transfer agent should do an effective job.

[PGlaves]

View the coolant as simply a transfer medium. It gains heat from the water jacket in the engine and loses heat to the metal radiator fins. It should reach an equilibrium and stay generally at that temperature, regulated by the thermostat.

Compared to plain water both conventional antifreeze and a surfactant like Water Wetter transfer heat from the block and to the radiator better. The coolant temperature may be the same but the hot spots in the block are probably cooler.

Anti-freeze has the added advantage that it raises the boiling point somewhat.

Don't misunderstand. I do not use any product marketed as a surfactant. They have their place but quality anti-freeze is also a surfactant and is just fine in a BMW cooling system unless there are other problems with the system.

But water by itself is a poor coolant. It freezes. It lacks water pump lubricants. It lacks anti-scale additives. It doesn't transfer heat as well as a proper coolant. It doesn't raise the boiling point. And several other things.

[deilenberger]

The K is watercooled and has a thermostat that is designed to open at a certain temp/pressure...how would a choice in coolant/mystery stuff/plain old water make a noticeable difference in cooling the bike? Switching thermostats to a lower opening temperature/pressure would have more of an impact, no?You're absolutely correct..

The primary temperature control on a K engine is the thermostat. The engine MUST run at a certain temperature to run efficiently. Run it colder and it will require a richer mixture to run - reducing efficiency and increasing fuel consumption.

Engine-Ice appears to be a simple non-toxic antifreeze, using Propylene Glycol (which all the non-toxic antifreezes use) instead of ethylene glycol. It appears to be sold with a lot of rather questionable claims and hype. They also seem to sell T-shirts and coffee mugs with their logo on them.

If you do a Google on "propylene glycol antifreeze" - you'll come up with LOTS of options for coolants using propylene glycol. And if you read the charts of thermal transfer efficiency that Engine-Ice kindly provides - you'll see that propylene glycol is slightly LESS efficient than ethylene glycol in transferring heat. Not enough to really matter - but it IS less efficient.

FWIW - propylene glycol is very commonly used in the food processing business where it's non-toxic properties are useful for water chilled machines (where cold water is used to cool things..) The big plus it has - is it is non-toxic. Other than that - it has no magical advantage over ethylene glycol based coolants.

One note on costs - it appears Engine-Ice comes "pre-mixed" or "pre-diluted" - meaning you pour it in right out of the bottle. Normally antifreeze comes undiluted and you mix it with distilled or deionized water. If the Engine-Ice costs the same as normal antifreeze for a bottle - that effectively makes it cost twice as much -- since half of what you're buying is water.

The one website I found for it with prices - indicates it costs $15.25 for 1/2 gallon, which would be $30.50 per gallon. Since it is prediluted - that means you're effectively paying $61.00 per gallon of actual coolant. That doesn't compare favorably with other propylene glycol coolants that retail for around $15.00 per gallon at 100% strength.

REF: http://www.pitposse.com/enicehipeco.html

[mrich12000]

So endith the lesson..:clap :clap

[deilenberger]

OK... more questions... I have been running Engine Ice Coolant in my dirt bikes and witness a serious drop in running temp. As my K12S seems to kick on the fan during city riding, does anyone have experience in running Engine Ice in a K-Bike?

http://www.engineice.cc/products.htmlSee above for my opinion on Engine Ice..

If the K12S didn't kick on the fan during city riding - something would be wrong. The fact that it does indicates the cooling system is doing exactly what it's supposed to do. The engine generates heat. That heat has to go somewhere. In the case of the K12S - it goes to the radiator where the fan draws air through it to maintain a temperture determined by the thermostat.

It's working normally. Stick with BMW coolant.. it works just fine and doesn't cost $60/gallon.

[st3ryder]

So endith the lesson..:clap :clap


Just one more dumb question please?

I'm not sure I agree that the thermostat/rad heat transfer etc keeps *all* coolant *mixtures* at the same temps. Yes, it will open up a a certain temp, but the engine temps *will* rise to higher levels depending on the water-coolant ratios, yes? And in this regard, a 40-60 coolant-water ratio will run cooler in hot ambient temps than a 60-40 coolant water blend, yes? They do for me according to the water temp gage. If so, more water is better for cooling, and if surfactants expose more of the water's surface to the heat, it *will* run cooler, yes?

[deilenberger]

Just one more dumb question please?

I'm not sure I agree that the thermostat/rad heat transfer etc keeps *all* coolant *mixtures* at the same temps. Yes, it will open up a a certain temp, but the engine temps *will* rise to higher levels depending on the water-coolant ratios, yes? And in this regard, a 40-60 coolant-water ratio will run cooler in hot ambient temps than a 60-40 coolant water blend, yes? They do for me according to the water temp gage. If so, more water is better for cooling, and if surfactants expose more of the water's surface to the heat, it *will* run cooler, yes?IF I understand your question(s) - you're asking:

1 - if a more efficient coolant will result in the engine running cooler?

Answer: Not if the thermostat is doing it's job and the cooling system is of adequate size and in good condition.

2 - if different ratios of coolant vs water will change the engine temperture

Answer - see answer to question #1.. ie - ditto. IF you're seeing different temps when you run with a lower coolant to water mix - then either the cooling system isn't adequately sized, or it isn't in very good shape.

3 - if more water vs coolant is better, and if surfactants expose more water surface to the heat (which is questionable.. it's more they allow less of a flow boundry layer in the coolant/heat-source interface) - if you run amost pure water with a surfactant will the engine will run cooler?

Answer - basically - if the thermostat and cooling system is working correctly - the system will reach the thermostat regulated temp - and stay there (within the control band of the thermostat - ie +/- ##F degrees.) There may be some additional point source cooling of specific hot spots in the engine by improving the heat transfer characteristics - IF there are problem spots. It isn't at all clear to me that BMW engines have "hot-spots"..

Back in the dark ages (40 years ago) - there were some Chrysler engines that were known to have hot spots in the head. The symptoms were what appeared to be overheating of the engine - bubbles in the coolant. The bubbles were the result of localized boiling of the coolant at the hot spot. A friend was perplexed by this with one of his cars - and tried larger radiators and higher velocity water pumps - and removing the thermostat. Turns out - that made it worse. The velocity of the coolant which caused the boundry layer over the hotspot to increase, and the cooling was less effective. The solution was finally a surfactant. In that case - yes - this might help cooling.

In the case of a BMW K bike engine - I doubt very much if anything is to be gained. The cooling systems are apparently of adequate size - since overheating of one with a working fan and thermostat is about unheard of..

The important point: The thermostat has no idea what coolant it's immersed in. It only knows the temperature of the coolant in contact with it's active element, and responds to the temperature by opening or closing.

IMHO - - Someone or some company that tells you otherwise has some snakes that are sweating oil and wants to sell you some..

[motoedde]

IF I understand your question(s) - you're asking:

<SNIP>

In the case of a BMW K bike engine - I doubt very much if anything is to be gained. The cooling systems are apparently of adequate size - since overheating of one with a working fan and thermostat is about unheard of..

<SNIP>

IMHO - - Someone or some company that tells you otherwise has some snakes that are sweating oil and wants to sell you some..

Don, I agree the K75s cooling system is quite adequate and STRONG...I've run my K hard on my last trip(through various deserts at low speeds at high RPMs) with Prestone and distilled 60-40 mix...

The only problem I ran into was the overflow bottle cap ruptured during a drop and caused the system to unpressurize...get yourself the new overflow cap(much sturdier rubber)...its $2.59 or $2.75 overnighted to your dealer!
Paul G has run Old Smokey pretty hard too and I don't remember reading him having any weird issues either...

So if you keep the system in good shape with the basic stuff, you shouldn't have any issues...

[deilenberger]

The only problem I ran into was the overflow bottle cap ruptured during a drop and caused the system to unpressurize...get yourself the new overflow cap(much sturdier rubber)...its $2.59 or $2.75 overnighted to your dealer!
Paul G has run Old Smokey pretty hard too and I don't remember reading him having any weird issues either...

So if you keep the system in good shape with the basic stuff, you shouldn't have any issues...The pressure cap on a K75 is on top of the radiator- under the tank. The overflow tank isn't pressurized at all - it sits at atmospheric pressure.

What can fail is the hose between the two. It loves to form small cracks where it fastens to the radiator fill port.. if it does - it will happily pump coolant down to the overflow tank when the engine is hot - but can't pull it back up to the radiator when it cools off (since the small cracks don't allow a vacuum to be formed in the hose..)

Worth checking - and if it was me - I'd also consider replacing the radiator cap every 5-6 years (or when you do a major coolant flush/change.) The small valves in the cap tend to build up deposits and stick open, or refuse to open (worse..) A new cap is about $15 or so - and a new hose - well - some from the auto parts store will work just fine since the line isn't under pressure.

Best,

[motoedde]

The pressure cap on a K75 is on top of the radiator- under the tank. The overflow tank isn't pressurized at all - it sits at atmospheric pressure.

Best,

Well...i was at altitude(3000m without alt. plug) and coolant was boiling out of the overflow bottle with the torn rubber cap...
See pic here for detail (http://www.motoedde.com/PicasaAlbums/Mechanical_Problems/target0.html)...I wasn't happy!

But I swear the cap was tight, and none of the hoses were leaking...once I put on a new cap in Seattle, it was all good!

[deilenberger]

Edde - I can't explain what you saw or what the results were - but if you remove the rubber cap on the reservoir - I really rather doubt if you'll see any difference. It's mostly there to keep the coolant in if the bike falls over. Give it a try..

[roadcrave]

Ive been running ((blue ice)) in my k-bike, 10-15 degrees cooler, was interesting in arizona last summer, 109 degrees and an hour delay on the freeway, kept my bike idling up about 2000 and never missed a beat...matthew

[lostboy]

Some important points: Coolant is not better at cooling than water. Water absorbs heat far better than glycol. That's why BMW reccomends a 60/40 mix of water/coolant. Hot-rodders run even lower ratios.

Many K-bikes are run in slow-moving traffic, thanks to our ever growing urban sprawl. Traffic often stops or crawls on interstate highways around here. Shutting off the engine is not always an option.

I'm not sure I'd describe late model K-bikes as having adequate cooling systems for many riders. The water pump's drive ratio was decreased in 1990/1991, and the K1200RS fan runs a lot. I often hear it running even after a 10 mile run in the temperatures we 'enjoy' here in D.C.

[deilenberger]

Ive been running ((blue ice)) in my k-bike, 10-15 degrees cooler, was interesting in arizona last summer, 109 degrees and an hour delay on the freeway, kept my bike idling up about 2000 and never missed a beat...matthewMatthew,

The lower temperatures are hard to explain based on a coolant change.. What else did you do at the same time?

The thermostat is there to keep the system at a set temperature and unless you were circulating mud before and getting inadequate cooling, the temperature shouldn't have changed *just* due to a change in coolant.

BTW - what are you basing the 10-15 (F?) degrees cooler on? The BMW coolant gauges I'm familiar with don't have actual degree markings on them. ( I did calibrate mine on my old K75S using a thermocouple in the coolant.)

Best,

[deilenberger]

Some important points: Coolant is not better at cooling than water. Water absorbs heat far better than glycol. That's why BMW reccomends a 60/40 mix of water/coolant. Hot-rodders run even lower ratios.
True - no argument at all - water is a better heat transfer mechanism. Coolant is used to prevent freezing and raise the boiling point of water. AFAIK - it also works as a surfactant - lessening the boundry layer effect of moving coolant past rough cooling passage surfaces.Many K-bikes are run in slow-moving traffic, thanks to our ever growing urban sprawl. Traffic often stops or crawls on interstate highways around here. Shutting off the engine is not always an option.

I'm not sure I'd describe late model K-bikes as having adequate cooling systems for many riders. The water pump's drive ratio was decreased in 1990/1991, and the K1200RS fan runs a lot. I often hear it running even after a 10 mile run in the temperatures we 'enjoy' here in D.C.Depends on your definition of "adequate" - has the bike ever overheated? If not - to me - that's "adequate".. not excessive, but it does the job it is intended to - even if the fan runs (which is why there IS a fan..)

I haven't heard of a rash of K bikes overheating unless the fan goes out... and even then, it's fairly rare - any forward movement seems to be enough to keep it out of the boiling over range.

BTW - when you say the pumps drive ratio was decreased - how was this done? AFAIK - the water pump was driven by the secondary (output) shaft for as long as the in-line 4 cylinder (vs the new transverse) engines were made. Was there a change in the crankshaft to output shaft gear ratio?

Best,

[lostboy]

The gears in the pump are sized differently.

There's been quite a bit of discussion on K-bike.com about K1200RS overheating when stuck in traffic, to the point of blowing the cap off the expansion tank and turning on the hot light.

[deilenberger]

The gears in the pump are sized differently.

There's been quite a bit of discussion on K-bike.com about K1200RS overheating when stuck in traffic, to the point of blowing the cap off the expansion tank and turning on the hot light.I'd guess it's actually the impeller. The gears in the pump are for the oil pump.

Interesting that the K1200RS is having problems. That's much newer than my personal knowledgebase..

[cjack]

I'd guess it's actually the impeller. The gears in the pump are for the oil pump.

Interesting that the K1200RS is having problems. That's much newer than my personal knowledgebase..

We never had a problem with them. Owned three of them and sat in some 95 F traffic plenty of times. Once we were riding in a major crosswind in Montana and the fans ran for hours since the wind somehow prevented the air from being directed into the radiators. No issues.
I think the only overheating I ever heard about was in '98 when the fans were faulty.

[motoedde]

I'm not sure I'd describe late model K-bikes as having adequate cooling systems for many riders. The water pump's drive ratio was decreased in 1990/1991, and the K1200RS fan runs a lot. I often hear it running even after a 10 mile run in the temperatures we 'enjoy' here in D.C.

I can't speak to the newer K's but I would DISAGREE relative to the adequacy of the Klassic K as I put it to the test in my last trip...

It crossed the Sahara twice, the Karakum desert, the Gobi and plenty of off road at high RPM's but low speed...ambient temps of 110F plus in these places...

See pics below...

http://tinyurl.com/2lgj87

The cooling system works and is reliable...my only complaint would be the design of where the fan exhausts the hot air, as it draws it away from the radiator....and the weak heat shield under the tank...oh well, just as with any other bike, the K's not perfect, but I prefer it flaws(as they're minor!)

[lostboy]

Don,

The impeller is on the same shaft as the oil pump. Lowered gearing in the pump
causes the this shaft to turn slower.

Lufmeister was forced to install older pumps in K1100s to keep their turbos alive
(under extreme conditions, of course!).

[roadcrave]

What factor would you impose on scale buildup due to using water, water has minerals, tap water has all kinds of minerals and it all depends on what part of the country you live in also..this will reduce heat transfer also, So some type of glycol and distilled water is always the longterm safest solution for heat transfer and added additives to protect the engine, not to mention water has air in it and your impellor would not be as efficient....matthew

[roadcrave]

Not scientific about the temp, other than obsurvation of my temp needle reads lower at any given rides in 90++ days, also I noticed my coolant fan does not cycle on as often, thats all I can explain is I know the blue ice works very well...matthew

[st3ryder]

Not scientific about the temp, other than obsurvation of my temp needle reads lower at any given rides in 90++ days, also I noticed my coolant fan does not cycle on as often, thats all I can explain is I know the blue ice works very well...matthew

Same here. My bike runs cooler with a higher water to coolant ratio. Yes, the thermostat/cooling fan do keep the engine at a certain temp range, but the engine reaches higher temps less frequently as evidenced by the fan kicking in less often. That translates to a cooler running engine in my opinion.