In-seam length and seat heights

[basketcase]

Rider in-seam, and complaints about BMW seat heights, are a frequent topic. I have personally wondered, “Why does BMW corporate insist on making their bikes so tall,” when the US market is consistently rumbling, “Lower the seat heights.” The fact is, as much as I like the R-GS models, my in-seam makes me nervous about buying one. (A foot slipping at an intersection while riding a too-tall motorcycle came close to getting me killed several years ago).

We frequently seem to hear the song and dance about the results of “market research.” I often wonder, “Is said research done by a query of active motorcyclists, or by use of a statistical model dreamed up over coffee in the break-room?”

Finally, thinking about this post, I again became aware that (generally speaking) women have proportionately longer legs – and shorter bodies, than do men. In other words, a woman 5'7" tall will register an in-seam length longer than a man of the same height. So, whereas I might gripe about a 31" seat height, a woman of the same physical height might say, “What’s the big deal?”

Anyway, I curious to know what others think about the subject -- and with a view to the in-seam measurement of the BMW riders who hang out here!

[DarrylRi]

I have a shorter inseam than the seat height of most of the bikes I do or have owned. In fact, on my current daily ride, an R1150RS, I have the seat set at the tallest position, which puts it up at 34" or so, IIRC. My inseam is only 30". Yet I find this very comfortable to ride. I can put the balls of my feet down at a stop, and that's plenty for me.

[kbasa]

If I can get one foot down, I'm good.

I'm 5'11" and have a 31" inseam.

[Cliffy777]

6'3". Enjoy the seating position on my current Rockster and on my traded in R1100RL. I have the seat in the tallest setting. Seating, handlebar position was one of the reasons I bought a beemer in the first place.
Sorry for the folks who don't fit so well - it works for me.

[Ironhorsecowboy]

The seat height on my 03 K1200 LTC was a little to tall for comfort. I could get both feet down but not flat on the ground. With the roughly 800+ pounds and the wife and gear I opted for the $350 heated lower seat to get both feet on the ground. I'm 5' 9" and have 32" inseam.

[1flyer]

I'm 5'8" and have a 29 inch inseam. Spend some time on my toes at the Stop Light or just rest on foot or the other. Not a problem unless I end up on a tall crown in the road.

[ScottM]

Lower my pegs and raised my handle bars. Now have an appointment with Rick Mayer to have a custom seat made. I REALLY hate the stock 1150R seat.

[kbasa]

Originally posted by ScottM
Lower my pegs and raised my handle bars. Now have an appointment with Rick Mayer to have a custom seat made. I REALLY hate the stock 1150R seat.

You're not alone there. I love Tina's Roadster, but that seat is an absolute torture rack.

[rapz]

I'm 5'10" with 31" inseam and use my RT seat in the second position...not flat footed at stops, but the lower position makes me slide forward too much and my knees kill me after about 250 miles.:brow

[basketcase]

Personally, I'm a scrawny little character ... all of 5'6" tall on a good day. :brow

Three years ago I bought a Gold Wing over the phone, picked it up two weeks later on a "passing through trip," and trailered it home from another state. I got several extra things with it -- notably, the stock saddle. It came with a Diamond on it that had been custom made for the previous owner.

Getting to Tuscaloosa, I offloaded the bovine, 860 pound mechanical wonder and took a ride around the neighborhood. No problem, but I did note the seat was a bit high for me, forcing me to do tiptoes on level ground, or a "one foot or the other" ritual in other circumstances.

The next day, I took a ride. My neighborhood is just off a four-lane state highway, and I promise, the nearest stop light has a sensor that whispers, "There he comes -- turn red now!"

Caught by the light as usual, I was first in line in front of three, or maybe four cars. We were all in the inside lane next to the median, and I was in the right track of my lane.

A guy in the outside lane turned right on red -- leaving the lane wide open, and about that time, the cross light turned yellow. As I shifted my weight to put it in first gear, my right foot slipped on the pavement -- and at about the same moment another cager coming up to the rear swung over into the outside lane and gunned it, anticipating the light.

Call it luck, divine intervention, or just chance -- but rather than roll off the bike and let it drop, I caught the bars and held on to keep my new toy from hitting the pavement. Just about the time he roared by me on the right, I managed to regain my balance. Had I rolled off as I have done in the past, I would have fallen squarely in the path of the cage.

I turned around at the next crossover and went home. The Diamond seat came off, and the stock saddle went on -- that day.

The 1.5 inch drop in saddle height made me infinitely more comfortable on the Wing, and I am a firm believer in the safety factors related to seat height. I am not completely happy with the height of the K11, but I've taught myself to deal with it. Eventually, I will invest in a custom seat, or a lo-shock, or maybe, both.

Just my $0.08

[Motoclass]

I think the seat height issue really comes into play when we are talking about new riders. Most novice riders are lacking in the experience necessary for good balance; especially in low speed manuevers. As a result of this I think BMW, with their seat heights, is dropping the ball in attracting many new, and especially female riders to their brand.

I have a 30 inch inseam. In my 34 years of riding I have ridden everything from 24" (seat height) choppers to 40" dirt bikes and have never had a "problem" with seat heights. However I have a huge amount of expirence that has given me a "feel" for what is happening with the motorcycle; ie. I can feel what I need to do to keep the bike upright.

Most novice riders lack this feel. If one is on one's tip toes and the bike starts to go over (before the new rider "feels" it going) then recovery is difficult at best. And even worse is if the surface is slippery, gravel, etc. I believe there is an increased overall confidence with being flat footed as well.

Personal experience with BMW? The '88 K100RS I used to own was without a doubt the most challenging and thought provoking motorcycle I ever owned in terms of slow speeds and coming to a stop. I always had to think ahead. I never did drop it though. (Just bragging! or was it the price of all that plastic I was thinking about:uhoh)

My current K75RT is lowered, not out of necessity, but because it is just plain easier, and therefore more fun, to ride that way.

When you get a chance, ask my wife Jackie what she rides the most and why!

[gsjay]

Originally posted by Motoclass
I think the seat height issue really comes into play when we are talking about new riders. Most novice riders are lacking in the experience necessary for good balance; especially in low speed manuevers. As a result of this I think BMW, with their seat heights, is dropping the ball in attracting many new, and especially female riders to their brand.

I have a 30 inch inseam. In my 34 years of riding I have ridden everything from 24" (seat height) choppers to 40" dirt bikes and have never had a "problem" with seat heights. However I have a huge amount of expirence that has given me a "feel" for what is happening with the motorcycle; ie. I can feel what I need to do to keep the bike upright.

Most novice riders lack this feel. If one is on one's tip toes and the bike starts to go over (before the new rider "feels" it going) then recovery is difficult at best. And even worse is if the surface is slippery, gravel, etc. I believe there is an increased overall confidence with being flat footed as well.



This is the most logical answer I've ever seen posted in response to this question.
I'm 5'6", have about a 28 inch inseam and ride a 2002 GS. It's all about balance!
gsjay

[DesertRider]

Originally posted by Motoclass
As a result of this I think BMW, with their seat heights, is dropping the ball in attracting many new, and especially female riders to their brand.

Precisely right. My wife is a fairly new rider, is convinced about the value of ABS, and has been riding a Honda Reflex with ABS. But when she outgrew that we went looking for an ABS bike for her and found that there is almost nothing that she could really ride comfortably. She's 5'3", 28" inseam, and she did not want a 700-lb bike or a bike where she could only reach the ground with her toes.

What she ended up with is an F650GS. It's not really what she wanted -- she didn't really want a dual-sport, and wanted something smoother than a single -- but nothing else with ABS really worked for her. She liked the 1200C in concept, but they're much heavier and she didn't like the cruiserish handling and ergos.

With the rapid growth of motorcycling in general and women riders in particular, it seems that there should be more than two ABS bikes on the market that are suitable for people under 5'6", which includes most women.

I have a 30 inch inseam. In my 34 years of riding I have ridden everything from 24" (seat height) choppers to 40" dirt bikes and have never had a "problem" with seat heights.

I think it's a very different matter for dirt bikes vs. street bikes. Not only is it OK to drop a dirt bike once in a while :-), but dirt bikes and most dual-sports have tall seats, but they're also very narrow and very light, so they provide a better reach to the ground and they don't require as much effort to keep upright. (My Kawi KL250 dual-sport is taller than my former K75, but on the Kawi I can reach the ground better and it's MUCH easier to keep upright, even on rough terrain.) A wide, heavy street bike requires a lower seat and much firmer purchase on the ground to be equally stable under the rider.

Personal experience with BMW? The '88 K100RS I used to own was without a doubt the most challenging and thought provoking motorcycle I ever owned in terms of slow speeds and coming to a stop. I always had to think ahead. I never did drop it though. (Just bragging! or was it the price of all that plastic I was thinking about:uhoh)

My former K75 was much the same for me. I have a 29" inseam, could only reach the ground on the balls of my feet, and though I've owned heavier bikes, that K75 was unusually top-heavy. I never dropped it, but it required great concentration and care in traffic, and I still had many scares. That made the bike considerably less enjoyable in town than other bikes that I didn't have to worry about so much. It also meant that, because solid footing was so critical to keep it upright, that I would never, ever take that bike on anything other than paved roads, which here in the desert southwest is a significant drawback. (Lots of interesting destinations here require short stretches on smooth dirt road.)

My current K75RT is lowered, not out of necessity, but because it is just plain easier, and therefore more fun, to ride that way.

EXACTLY. Yeah, you can manage a taller bike, but it's not as enjoyable.

[DesertRider]

I do think that it's a bit misleading to talk about seat height alone. The ability to reach the ground also depends on the width of the seat and of the bike itself at the point where your legs trace to the ground. A wide seat can make the effective reach much longer, and if the pegs are directly below the seat it forces your stance to be wider, making it harder yet.

How top-heavy the bike is also matters a lot, as does the degree of sag in the suspension. A lot of dirt bikes with very tall seats have soft long-travel suspensions that sag several inches when you sit on them, so their unladen seat height is really quite misleading.

I've noticed that at least one of the British bike mags has started providing seat-height measurements that measure from the ground over the seat and back to the ground. Much more realistic, I think, except that I can't figure out how to relate that to myself. I'm used to gauging what range of seat heights I can handle, but if they were to quote, say, a 73-inch over-the-top distance, I don't know if that's tall for me or not.

Perhaps best is if bikes were evaluated on required inseam to reach the ground flat-footed, assuming typical sag for a person of average weight for that height, and for others it's easy to extrapolate from it. So an 1150GS might be rated as flat-foot reach for someone of 32" inseam. If you have a 30" inseam and are comfortable on your toes with a near-600-lb bike, then you know you're OK. If you're of 30" inseam and need to be on flat feet for a bike that heavy, then the GS is not for you.

[Cliffy777]

There is a letter from a guy who is somewhat vertically challenged. He had a cobbler add .25 or .50 an inch to his riding boot soles. Said it made a big difference in his reach and confidence level.

Personally I think that half the battle is confidence and "feel". When I bought my first Beemer in '01 I did so without test driving it at all. I had let my cycle endorsement lapse so they could not let me drive it. It just "felt right" as I sat on it in the showroom and I was confident we would get along out on the road!

ps - Road Bike is all metric now. I am very impressed with the mag. Good blend of stories, articles and features IMHO.

[DesertRider]

Originally posted by Cliffy777
There is a letter from a guy who is somewhat vertically challenged. He had a cobbler add .25 or .50 an inch to his riding boot soles. Said it made a big difference in his reach and confidence level.

I did that as well, though not for that purpose. I was unhappy with the grip of the soles on my AlpineStars SMX boots, so had a cobbler add a Vibram lug sole (like those on hiking boots). The new soles really helped the grip, but also raised the boots about 3/8", and I was surprised the difference it made on the K-bike I owned at the time.

[lancew]

I'm 6'2", with a 36" inseam (I believe the technical term is "long-leggedy-a-hole") and I keep the seat on my '99 K12RS in the high slot. Funny thing is, I sometimes miss the leg position from my '85 K100RS- even with the stock butt-flattener/torture-rack seat, it was easier on my knees. Or maybe I'm just older... :dunno

[basketcase]

Which I do as infrequently as possible.

But I don't buy into the "footing is more important to new riders" argument as a justification for sloppy thinking.

IMO, stable footing is a bit like carrying insurance -- as long as you don't crash, it seems useless, but when you do need it, it is the only thing that will do.

I am not knowledgable enough from the technical standpoint to argue the case in specific terms, but it seems to me the same physical principles would apply in footing that apply in terms of traction.

The larger the contact patch, the more solidly one grips the surface in question.

Thus it seems that a tippy toed contact patch leaves much to be desired over a solid ball-of-the-foot or whole-sole-on- the-ground contact patch.

Thinking back on it, the only motorcycles I've ever dropped from lack of a solid footing are ... the BMW's I have owned.

So, I suppose there is no point in my lusting after an R12 GS when I know I'll have to run and jump on it like a cowboy fleeing a scalping party. :dunno

[DesertRider]

Originally posted by RickM
But I don't buy into the "footing is more important to new riders" argument as a justification for sloppy thinking...Thus it seems that a tippy toed contact patch leaves much to be desired over a solid ball-of-the-foot or whole-sole-on- the-ground contact patch.


I agree. If you're on your toes with a heavy bike the bike doesn't have to tip very far before it's unrecoverable. And no matter how careful you are, the time will come when a bit of slippery or uneven ground will eat up that tiny margin and down you'll go.

A fellow I met a few months ago (he was about 6' tall; I'm 5'6") who rides a Boxer GS told me that if I really wanted a GS (which I don't, but it was the topic of conversation) I shouldn't be too concerned about having to ride it on my tippy-toes. "You get the bike you want and eventually you get used to it," he said. That kind of thing is pretty easy to say when you're not the one who has to do it, so, considering out differences in inseam, I asked him how he would feel of his GS, instead of having a 34" seat, had a 39" seat. He thought that would be insanely high for a bike that heavy -- which was precisely my point, because it gave him an idea of how a stock Boxer GS feels to me. And at 5'6" I'm taller than most women; I really think there's a big market for the first company to make full-power, fully capable bikes that are rideable by most women. Too bad it's not BMW.