MSF Experienced Rider Course

[sgtboring]

The DOD now requires a MSF completion card to get a Base Pass Sticker for a Bike. The military has always been about the dotting the i and crossing the t's.

I took the basic course back in 85 but had long since lost the card. To make a long story short I completed the Experienced Course last night. Here are some of my observations and thoughts.

1. I was the Only BMW rider out of the class of 12. The rest of the bikes were mostly cruisers HD (the class took place in York PA) and a couple of Buells and a couple of Sport Bikes.

2. More then half of the HD bikes experienced some type mechanical issue.

3. Most of the Riders were over 40 and only 2 of us had existing Class M licenses.

4. The instructors breezed through protective clothing but did strongly advocated helmet use (in PA we have a choice)

5. Most of the class had never seen a BMW up close. They were surprised that my bike was 8 years old and had 50K on it. Buy the second night I was asked by 3 class members where the BMW dealer was located. And others were asking how far I have ridden my bike, what kind of seat I had, why I use Sheep skin year round, hoarse power, top end speed ect...

6. My bike was the only one with ABS brakes which made my braking distance almost half as much space as the next best bikes in the class the Honda CBRs and the Yamaha Cruisers.

7. The instructor always knew is I was shifting gears since they could hear it across the parking lot.

8. The course was pretty informative and I believe I have improved my cornering tech.

9. People really do dump bikes in the course. A Victory got really banged up in one of the exercises.

10. The course is free in PA

I am interested in what others experience or thoughts about the course are.

[ltljohn]

I have a few questions.

If it is an "EXPERIENCED" rider course how come only 2 of the 12 had the M endorsment?

Dosen't experienced mean you have been riding/licensed for a while?

The way I read the description for the PA course is that if you have a permit and take this course you can get your M endorsment.
How does the equate to experienced riders?

I am planning on taking the course just to tune up my skills but I would think that it would be more advanced than a basic license test.

[PAGoldsby]

7. The instructor always knew is I was shifting gears since they could hear it across the parking lot.

:rofl

I'm planning to take the same course soon. I've been away from motorcycling for some years, and I know that I have some bad habits to un-learn. Thanks for your insight, Sgt!

[bricciphoto]

7. The instructor always knew is I was shifting gears since they could hear it across the parking lot.

:laugh

I took it in York, too. All Harleys except for a younger rider on a SV650S. My experience was similar to yours. I don't know who your instructors were, but I thought they were going to ask if they could take my ST for a spin.

Nothing like following a bunch of HDs scraping along in front in of me. I had to sandbag during the slalom and I'd still catch up to them before the last couple cones. :lol

I took it on a Saturday and couldn't wait for it to end. It was an okay class, but it got a little boring toward the end of the day. BIG emphasis on not drinking and riding during the lecture portion.

ltljohn, it's more than a basic examination. They teach good riding skills and reinforce the basics. It's just if you've been riding for a while, some of the exercises are a little remedial. But, yes. A rider with a M permit will get their endorsement if they pass the class. You would be surprised how many guys are just renewing permits and never bothering to take the test. They fear the box and the Figure 8.

[knary]

The ABS isn't why your bike stopped quickly. The ABS on your bike on dry pavement will *increase* stopping distance if activated. The bike stopped quickly because it had good brakes, good tires, and a pilot that knew how to use them.

[ltljohn]

:laugh

I took it in York, too. All Harleys except for a younger rider on a SV650S. My experience was similar to yours. I don't know who your instructors were, but I thought they were going to ask if they could take my ST for a spin.

Nothing like following a bunch of HDs scraping along in front in of me. I had to sandbag during the slalom and I'd still catch up to them before the last couple cones. :lol

I took it on a Saturday and couldn't wait for it to end. It was an okay class, but it got a little boring toward the end of the day. BIG emphasis on not drinking and riding during the lecture portion.

ltljohn, it's more than a basic examination. They teach good riding skills and reinforce the basics. It's just if you've been riding for a while, some of the exercises are a little remedial. But, yes. A rider with a M permit will get their endorsement if they pass the class. You would be surprised how many guys are just renewing permits and never bothering to take the test. They fear the box and the Figure 8.

I too fear the box and figure 8 that is why I want to take the course to improve my slow speed skills.

[bricciphoto]

The ABS isn't why your bike stopped quickly. The ABS on your bike on dry pavement will *increase* stopping distance if activated. The bike stopped quickly because it had good brakes, good tires, and a pilot that knew how to use them.

Indeed. Lots of rear tire smoke from the cruisers. :brow

In my case a lighter bike and lighter rider helps shorten the trip to 0 mph, too. Because I was the only rider with ABS our instructors made a point to explain ABS and the fact that it will take longer to stop despite what appeared to be evidence to the contrary.

[sgtboring]

I realize more and more each day how little I know. It used to be I knew everything. So the ABS Controls Braking but does not shorten braking distance ?

[PatrickMitchell]

PA now allows you to get your licence through the experienced rider course. There WAS a loop hole that allowed you to get a permit and renew it annually, without ever having to take the test. Many people simply paid their five bucks each year and never bothered to finish. With that loophole closed, the majority of the people in my group had been riding for years, yet still needed to get their endorsement (be glad we don't get all the government that we pay for...). I rode my Buell; the short wheel base makes the box and figure eight a breeze. The class was a mix of liter bikes, cruisers, and HDs. The was a guy on a HUGE Victory that dumped his bike (Big cruisers have manuvering issues in tight spaces).

I looked at the class as a good way to start the riding season. It reinforces good habits and allows you to practice some basic obstacle and avoidance skills in a safe environment. As long as you are expecting BASICS, it is worth spending a full day on the class.

I'll probably take it again. It was a good way to shake the winter cobwebs.

[henzilla]

Helen and I took the Advanced course last winter...as a need to refresh skills and to take care of two performance awards.
I took one of the roadsters and tore up the box drills enough for the instructor to ask me to take the larger of the two boxes as I was embarassing the Ducati, the Ninja and the Victory...as well as his Wing. he almost dropped it twice doing demos. I'll take the RT if I do it again...comfort level came way up after a day of drills. The instructor finally told the Duc rider to do what he could...we all laughed at that one as we smelled clutch constantly. The slalom course I did the same as bricciphoto and had to wait a lot

I always had issues with the completely look over my shoulder move and this allowed me to work that out.

It is surprising how many people I talk to that ride without an endorsement...I have had mine for 35 years, but first course was last year.

[knary]

I realize more and more each day how little I know. It used to be I knew everything. So the ABS Controls Braking but does not shorten braking distance ?

ABS helps prevents skidding and loss of control of the vehicle. If a wheel locks, it temporarily releases the brakes allowing the wheel to regain traction. If it locks again, it releases it again. Each time it releases the brakes, you're traveling a little further than you would if the ABS wasn't triggered. This might seem like a bad thing, but if you're attempting to stop on a slick surface, the ABS will keep the wheels rolling and thus the bike upright. If a bike is on its side, the brakes don't do much good.

[henzilla]

ABS helps prevents skidding and loss of control of the vehicle. If a wheel locks, it temporarily releases the brakes allowing the wheel to regain traction. If it locks again, it releases it again. Each time it releases the brakes, you're traveling a little further than you would if the ABS wasn't triggered. This might seem like a bad thing, but if you're attempting to stop on a slick surface, the ABS will keep the wheels rolling and thus the bike upright. If a bike is on its side, the brakes don't do much good.

You must ride a LOT to know this!:jester :rofl :rofl :rofl
I loved the stinky bait response BTW

[knary]

You must ride a LOT to know this!:jester :rofl :rofl :rofl
I loved the stinky bait response BTW

All I know is that I'm bored with my GS and am fighting the urge to swap it out for a lightly used KTM 950.

:hide

[bikerfish1100]

The ERC is designed for riders with experience. That does not mean that it is only for licensed riders (tho one would hope)- as "experienced" and "legal" don't necessarily go together. In fact, we offer a ERCLW (License Waiver) specifically for those riders with substantial experience who, for whatever reason, do not have their M endorsement.
Same courses, except that the LW offers a Skills Test and a Written Test at the end. The ERC goes beyond what is taught in the Basic Rider Course (BRC) only in that we allow higher speeds (20-25 max in ERC, as opposed to 18-20 max in BRC). The exercises focus on refining control inputs, braking performance, slow speed manuvers, and (mostly) cornering technique.

[terham]

I took the PA ERC course last year in Valley Forge in the spring to get ready for the riding season. I thought it was going to be riders who had been riding for a while like me who wanted to learn some new skills and brush up on existing skills. The class (10-12) was mostly new riders on new bikes that had taken the BRC recently and were taking the course to get their M class license and/or cheaper insurance rates. My 87 KRS was the oldest bike by far. If it had been a rally and they were giving a prize for oldest bike/rider combo, I'd have won hands down.:p

I was asked a lot what I was doing there if I already had my license? It was like, why would you do this if you aren't required to be here? Kinda like voluntary summer school. I think there were two of us with our licenses. I was definitely more relaxed for the final exam, which was taken in a downpour, since I didn't really need to pass to get my license.

I thought it was a good course and I learned some things, especially about looking through corners, and would take it again, but it wasn't what I expected. I did notice that the new riders, whatever they were riding, smoked their rear tires in the braking exercises, but I think learning to use the front brake takes a little time. I was chided for only using 2-3 fingers on the front brake rather than all four.:nono I used the old dog/new tricks excuse.

[bricciphoto]

The class (10-12) was mostly new riders on new bikes that had taken the BRC recently and were taking the course to get their M class license and/or cheaper insurance rates. ...I was asked a lot what I was doing there if I already had my license? It was like, why would you do this if you aren't required to be here? Kinda like voluntary summer school....I was chided for only using 2-3 fingers on the front brake rather than all four.:nono I used the old dog/new tricks excuse.

Deja vu. I was the only licensed rider in my class. I got the four finger chiding, too. To the credit of the instructors and the overall course outline, it was good to see some of the riders actually progress as the day wore on. I might take it again as a brush up in the future. It is a relatively safe training environment and it's nice to have the feedback from the instructor.

[bmwcliff]

Took the course 2 years ago, in Pa. also. Had the advantage of being given by an instructor that worked for the same large company, the course was on a Sunday, and was only for fellow employees. Was 12 of us, 7 Harleys, 2 Triumphs, my Rockster, 2 Jap cruisers. Most everybody was very experienced, I had 32 years riding at that point, the youngest was app. 30, on a hot Triumph. Excellent overall, very hard in my opinion, and I was impressed by how well the Harley guys did, on what I always perceived as a "barge" of a bike. I believe I put 22 miles on the bike in a parking lot that day, our instructor was short on the class drill, which was outside in the lot, and constant riding exercises. I was worn out till I got home. Hope to do again in the next few years.:groovy

[sgtboring]

I was also scolded for keeping 3 fingers Middle, Ring and Pinkie on the brake. Back in the day I was taught that that would increase my reaction time. But I think the instructors wanted to keep the newbies from over using thier front brakes at slow speeds and dumping thier bikes. :hungover

[BradfordBenn]

The ERC is a good thing, I would also be interested to hear from anyone who took one that the BMW MOA Foundation sponsored at the Rally.

[bigdelta]

All I know is that I'm bored with my GS and am fighting the urge to swap it out for a lightly used KTM 950.

:hide

Mine is.

[knary]

Mine is.

Yes

I'm a BMW geek through and through. I am, however, bored with my GS. Having put thousands of miles on a bicycle the past few years, I've come to want a more raw riding experience than my GS offers. While a bit slow, it's otherwise eerily competent in many ways. Too competent. The thrill just isn't there - for me. It does most things with a "ho hum, this is it?" attitude. To find that visceral heart pumping feel, I need to push it and me harder than I'd like for public roads.

So what should I replace it with? The new hexheads have more 'edge' than my GS, but not enough for me to find money I don't have. The obvious choice is an F800 of some flavor, and that is what I plan on having in the near future. I am one of those eagerly awaiting the arrival of the F800GS. Having ridden and very much liked the the F800ST, I know that bike will likely be the fun I want.

But how long will I have to wait? A few months? A year? How long until the first used ones hit the market?

And so I think about that KTM 950, a bike that is as good as any. Bigger than I want, but wicked fun. And/or maybe an old airhead. But I'm really a one bike kind of guy.

:dunno

[bigdelta]

Yes

I'm a BMW geek through and through. I am, however, bored with my GS. Having put thousands of miles on a bicycle the past few years, I've come to want a more raw riding experience than my GS offers. While a bit slow, it's otherwise eerily competent in many ways. Too competent. The thrill just isn't there - for me. It does most things with a "ho hum, this is it?" attitude. To find that visceral heart pumping feel, I need to push it and me harder than I'd like for public roads.

So what should I replace it with? The new hexheads have more 'edge' than my GS, but not enough for me to find money I don't have. The obvious choice is an F800 of some flavor, and that is what I plan on having in the near future. I am one of those eagerly awaiting the arrival of the F800GS. Having ridden and very much liked the the F800ST, I know that bike will likely be the fun I want.

But how long will I have to wait? A few months? A year? How long until the first used ones hit the market?

And so I think about that KTM 950, a bike that is as good as any. Bigger than I want, but wicked fun. And/or maybe an old airhead. But I'm really a one bike kind of guy.

:dunno

you realize w/o a BMW,you'll have to move over to KTMMOA as information architect if you buy that bike!:laugh
Buy an airhead.

[knary]

you realize w/o a BMW,you'll have to move over to KTMMOA as information architect if you buy that bike!:laugh
Buy an airhead.

:ha

I don't recall BMW ownership being a requirement of the position. If someone wants to come out and say it is, then they can go ahead and step up and buy my next bike for me. :deal

[Hodag]

:ha

I don't recall BMW ownership being a requirement of the position. If someone wants to come out and say it is, then they can go ahead and step up and buy my next bike for me. :deal

its a requirement



now about buying your next bike...
do you mind a lightly used princess bike with 16" wheels?

[knary]

its a requirement



now about buying your next bike...
do you mind a lightly used princess bike with 16" wheels?

So long as it's a BMW princess bike.

[85138]

Indeed. Lots of rear tire smoke from the cruisers. :brow

In my case a lighter bike and lighter rider helps shorten the trip to 0 mph, too. Because I was the only rider with ABS our instructors made a point to explain ABS and the fact that it will take longer to stop despite what appeared to be evidence to the contrary.

A skilled rider with dry pavement and controlled circumstance would be able to stop shorter without ABS. However, an unskilled or so so rider is likely not able to do so. Need to be close to threshold on both tires (and be able to sense it) for ultimate stopping distance.

Plus the risk factors on the street ... condition of pavement, tire, etc. ... keep the bike vertical and you can squeeze all you want w/ ABS. Don't need a lot of skill. May need to leave some margin without. Front wheel slides are difficult to recover from. Many cruiser riders underuse the front brake and overcompensate on the rear (sorta reflexively) 'cause the thang ain't stopping fast enough. Plus many HD's have thin front tires and poor front brakes to begin with. Rear brakes are usually decent. My '93 Sportster had the worst front brakes in modern motorcycling.

Factor in rain ... no question ... unless maybe you're Chris Vermuelen.

[hlothery]

When I took the ERC, the riding exercises were all about stopping, swerving and turning. This was especially neat, since we repeated the exercises all day in the driving rain in a parking lot. The result was a tremendous gain in confidence for me, and an understanding of what the bikes are capable of. I was one of the few with a rain suit, BTW........those are pretty neat, too.

I recommend the course to anyone who has not done it. We could all use more practice in those areas IMHO.

[bricciphoto]

A skilled rider with dry pavement and controlled circumstance would be able to stop shorter without ABS. However, an unskilled or so so rider is likely not able to do so. Need to be close to threshold on both tires (and be able to sense it) for ultimate stopping distance.

Plus the risk factors on the street ... condition of pavement, tire, etc. ... keep the bike vertical and you can squeeze all you want w/ ABS. Don't need a lot of skill. May need to leave some margin without. Front wheel slides are difficult to recover from. Many cruiser riders underuse the front brake and overcompensate on the rear (sorta reflexively) 'cause the thang ain't stopping fast enough. Plus many HD's have thin front tires and poor front brakes to begin with. Rear brakes are usually decent. My '93 Sportster had the worst front brakes in modern motorcycling.

Factor in rain ... no question ... unless maybe you're Chris Vermuelen.

Right. I was just making the point that all other things being equal a 500 lb. motorcycle with (or even without) ABS and with a 140 lb. rider is going to have an advantage over an 800 lb. motorcycle w/o ABS with a 250 lb. rider. To the uninitiated, it would appear the ABS was the cause of the quicker stop, forgetting about a significant weight handicap--ignoring any skill advantage/disadvantage. :wave Which is all good stuff for ERC participants to see and learn. Better to dispel myths early.