Cycle World Article

[coyotebmw]

Anyone read the Cycle World article "BMW F800ST vs. Honda Interceptor" in this months Cycle World? I read it and found it disturbing and bias for Honda. How does everyone else read it?http://www.cycleworld.com/article.asp?section_id=13&article_id=407

Somethings I found questionable were their power and torque rateings (I think they said they reported torque as 52 Ft/lb @8000 RPM, BMW reports it as 63 lb/ft @ 5800 rpm, and power as 85 bhp @ 8000 rpm). Also, they dinged the F800ST because it is a light bike compared to the Honda! I really think they were unfair to the F800ST!:nono

[knary]

Anyone read the Cycle World article "BMW F800ST vs. Honda Interceptor" in this months Cycle World? I read it and found it disturbing and bias for Honda. How does everyone else read it?http://www.cycleworld.com/article.asp?section_id=13&article_id=407

Somethings I found questionable were their power and torque rateings (I think they said they reported torque as 52 Ft/lb @8000 RPM, BMW reports it as 63 lb/ft @ 5800 rpm, and power as 85 bhp @ 8000 rpm). Also, they dinged the F800ST because it is a light bike compared to the Honda! I really think they were unfair to the F800ST!:nono

I haven't read the article, but CW probably reported the rear wheel power/torque while BMW gives the crank power/torque. Yes?

[kreinke]

I got that impression too. They state the F800 is nearly 100 lbs lighter than the Interceptor. Then they complain because there's too much ground clearance. (WTF?!? is it possible to have too much leaning ability?) And get this....they thought the saddlebags on the Beemer were too big. That's kind of like a woman's mammary glands being too big or a Hemi being too powerful....it's just not possible.

It's pretty obvious that Cycle World is pandering to their bigger advertiser. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. CW lost its credibility when they started featuring the chopper crap on the covers.

Interestingly enough, Roadracing World had a really nice write-up of the F800's in last month's issue and praised it for being a better bike overall that the Interceptor....even saying the F800S would make a good track day bike.

[coyotebmw]

As I read the article I realized that they were trying to make an Apples and Oranges comparison between the bikes, just to make the Honda look better! When you realize that they were comparing 20th century vs 21st century technology! They probably had to make the old tech look good because that is were their bread and butter comes from.

[coyotebmw]

I just got off the phone with BMW Motorrad of North America after I sent them a e-mail question on the CycleWorld article. The difference is that BMW certifies the Power and Torque on a dyno at the shaft. I mentioned the difference between the advertised specs and the CycleWorld "findings". CycleWorld was measuring the power and torque at the rear wheel and not the crank, as BMW, and most manufacturers do. Also, the difference between the spec for torque (63 Ft/Lbs at 5,800 rpm vs CycleWorlds 53 at 8000 rpm) is bogus because that is where the F800ST's torque is starting to fall off.

[rinty]

I read the article, quickly, a few days ago, and thought it was pretty balanced. I will have another look at it, in light of your comments, and because I am a big fan of the new 800.

I don't find CW to be anti BMW overall.

Rinty

[larrydk]

Just an opinion, CW has opinions based on thier editorial staff, I don't think it's intentionally biased

[sjbmw]

A discerning reader in the market for either of these bikes would find that the details favor the BMW, despite the homage to the squids.

They try to sell quarter mile times as a factor, which is what squids read, but is not really relevant for these bikes.

The meat is in the details.

A 25 year old model vs. a new design.
Unscrapable pegs.
Adjustable width bags.
Smoother engine.
equal price tags. (the biggest draw for BMW right there!)
37 mpg vs. 46 mpg

[SCQTT]

You guys crack me up. Once again the MOA guys have drank the koolaid and think everyone is out to get them.

Those bikes have little in common except the displacement. They both are what they are and they are very hard to compare.

SJBMW do you really think the Honda is a 25 year old design?

FWIW I have ridden a few times with some of the CW guys, they like BMWs. I know a few of them have BMWs in their personal garage.

[Mika]

I thought the F800 did very well in the comparison. A new bike against one with a history in a ‘class shoot out’, So the class has only two bikes as they point out. The Interceptor/VFR has multiple CW Ten Best awards (with a capital M) “Truth be known, you wouldn’t be the teeniest bit disappointed with either of these two.” Then they flipped the editorial coin and it came up Honda.

You looking for validation or can you make your own decision on which of the two best fits you as an individual rider?

[Oldhway]

I got that impression too. They state the F800 is nearly 100 lbs lighter than the Interceptor. Then they complain because there's too much ground clearance. (WTF?!? is it possible to have too much leaning ability?) And get this....they thought the saddlebags on the Beemer were too big. That's kind of like a woman's mammary glands being too big or a Hemi being too powerful....it's just not possible.

It's pretty obvious that Cycle World is pandering to their bigger advertiser. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. CW lost its credibility when they started featuring the chopper crap on the covers.

Interestingly enough, Roadracing World had a really nice write-up of the F800's in last month's issue and praised it for being a better bike overall that the Interceptor....even saying the F800S would make a good track day bike.

I was dissapointed in the article as well however to put things in a little more perspective; They complained that the BMW bags were to wide yet had a smaller capacity than the Honda's, even expanded all the way. They also did not "complain" about the ground clearance, they actually praised it but were surprised it was so abundant.

A second note, calling the VFR800 a 25 year old design, as another poster did, because it's based on the original VF750S of 1983 is like calling the R1200RT a 30 year old design because it's based on the original R100RT or calling an "07 Corvette a 50 year old design because it's based ib the original from the 50's. Kind of a stretch there.

Having said all that, I don't think the bikes are actually viaing for the same marketshare so the comparison probably needs to be read with that in mind. The only thing that really pushed the Honda ahead was peak power and if you reread the article with that in mind, the F800ST comes out much better as a light weight, do everything, all arounder. How about some more leg room in there, ok BMW?

Now, pass the Kool Aid please.

[sjbmw]

some people can read, but comprehension eludes them.

25 year old MODEL.

vs. a NEW Designed bike.

[Oldhway]

some people can read, but comprehension eludes them.

25 year old MODEL.

vs. a NEW Designed bike.


Sorry, some how I felt that the 25 year old part was meant to hold some significance but now that you tell me it is irrelevant, your bringing it up makes perfect sense to me. I appreciate the correction and feel I understand your comment much better now.

:dunno

[rinty]

Good discussion, but I think I'll stick with Glenlivet.

I have read a number of comparo articles over the years, where the VFR has come out on top. The major criticisms were the lack of factory hard bags until a few years ago, and the big power hit up top with the variable valve timing on the more recent models.

I haven't ridden the VFR, but one of the best features of the F 800 is its broad power band. They pull hard from 3000 rpm on up. And the front end feel of the S model that I rode is as nice as anything I've ridden. If the VFR didn't have matching bottom end power, then in a scrum in the twisties against an F 800 rider, the Honda pilot would have to be in the right gear all the time.

Rinty

[32232]

The March issue of "Bike" magazine from the UK, usually a champion of the VFR, gave a clear win to the F800 in a similar comparison. Given that they previously have said they thought the VFR was just about the best bike in existence, that's high praise indeed.

[kreinke]

The only thing that really pushed the Honda ahead was peak power and if you reread the article with that in mind, the F800ST comes out much better as a light weight, do everything, all arounder. How about some more leg room in there, ok BMW?

Now, pass the Kool Aid please.

I'll take my Kool Aid with a shot of Captain Morgan please.:thumb

The last sentence of the article says it all. It didn't leave any room for misinterpretation. Said something like "If you need a good sport tourer you only need to stop at your local Honda dealer."

Considering the F800 either tied to spanked the Interceptor and had an equal number of nits to pic, I call that bias. Especially considering the engine, the most important part of the motorcycle. They still don't like the V-tec but loved the F800's mill.

[Kevin]

I didn't find anything untoward about the article. If anything disappointed in the wet weight. Was hoping it'd come in around 460 w/ fluids but seems to be ~ 500lbs fully loaded. (They listed 485 dry ... presumably everything but gas)

When it comes to wt & power specs I put more credence in magazines (especially MCNews) than manufactures, especially with the silly dry wt specs. BMW and Ducati tend to be not as outrageous (relatively) with the disparity btwn dry and wet.

[kreinke]

I reread the article and found one more thing conspicuously missing from the comparo.

power whine mode start:violin

There was no mention of the cost of ownership of these bikes as far as maintenance. Usually magazines make at least a passing mention of maintenance costs. (I.E. can you do your own oil changes, etc.) They talk about how durable the valve train is, what are the service intervals, etc.

INMO the little Beemer has the VFR beat hands down (which is probably why they omitted it) in maintenance.

The VFr has a chain drive whereas the Beemer has a belt (some F650CS owners have gotten over 100,000 miles out of theirs).

The Beemer has finger-follower valves whereas the VFR has the complicated V-tec shim-under-bucket valves (twice as many of them too).....not to mention the VFR has more plastic and a good mechanic will probably spend more than and hour of labor just getting the damned thing stripped down to do a service.

Call me a conspiracy theorist if you like, but the fact that the mentioned 1/4 mile times on bike that'll never be raced, but omitted maintenance costs where a good many sport-touring folks like to do their own wrenching stinks. :violin
power whine over.

[SCQTT]

Kreinke, let me get this straight, you're saying the BMW will be cheaper to maintain than the Honda in the long run? You really feel that way? You think they maybe posted 1/4 times and stayed away from ownership costs as a way of keeping the Honda on top?


I am with M1ka on this one.


SJBMW, my reading comprehension is fine. I understand the difference bewteen a new design and a 25 year old model

Here is where I have a problem.

"The meat is in the details" (your words)

Cycle Word uses that statment, (new/25year) but ties no favoritism to it.

You use that stament as a plus to the F800 side of the sheet. By doing so you are implying that the new design is better than the 25 year old model. CW did not even hint at that. I think you took their words out of context and applied them as you see fit.

Don't get me wrong, I am not a Honda fan. I have owned a few, but I do not have one at this time. FWIF I have 5 BMWs in the garage right now. The problem I have with Honda is I think they have been engineering the soul out of their products for many many years. Yes, they are good, almost too good, but that is where the problem lies. They are made for mass consumpution, made to work for everyone.

[kreinke]

Kreinke, let me get this straight, you're saying the BMW will be cheaper to maintain than the Honda in the long run? You really feel that way? You think they maybe posted 1/4 times and stayed away from ownership costs as a way of keeping the Honda on top?
.

I wasn't speaking Chinese was I?

Do you really feel that that Wurlitzer, Rube Goldberg contraption of an engine is easier to maintain than a simple in-line twin?

Are you trying to tell me that a 16 valve motorcycle with a funky hydraulic valve actuation on 2 valves per cylinder, plus chain as opposed to belt drive, plus more plastic to remove, plus fewer miles between valve adjustments, equals a cheaper to maintain motorcycle? I didn't think so. I bet the F800 is going to be LOTS cheaper in the maintenance department in the long run.

As far as quater-mile times....Yeah, I'll go right out and get a VFR because I'm .5 second closer to beating that 'Busa I've seen around town.

[Brettendress]

I have to say I think Cycle world was very fair for once. The VFR is a legend and I own one and know this to be true. Even getting close to a recomendation from CW compared to the VFR means Bmw made a great attempt on the first try with this bike. Also people in the know like the BMW rider will buy the 800 over the VRF because it is a sport tourer with emphasis on tourer not a sport tourer with a sport bike feel. I have to believe they were right on in there evaluation of both bikes. I will however still ride both my BMW's far more than my VFR for some reason that I'll never know. Over tha past three years BMW GS 45,000.00 miles, R60/5 5,000.00 miles VFR 2,000.00 miles, So in the end when you head into the garage its what you pick to ride that says it all.

Brett
Altoona Pa.

[knary]

Between a chain drive vtech Honda and a belt drive rotax, I'd bet the rotax would be the cheaper to run (nevermind the better fuel mileage).

[rinty]

The major disadvantage of the ST as a sport tourer, in my opinion, is it's luggage capacity, which is 10 litres, or 30%, less than the Honda. The VFR uses about 25% more fuel, but its fuel capacity is 1.7 gallons more, so its range is a bit higher than the ST's (217 miles to 190 miles).

Rinty

[Ridealot]

I read the article and thought the F800 was fairly represented.

I'm glad they mentioned the short distance from the peg to seat. As someone who has had knee surgery it is very uncomfortable to have my knees bent at to sharp of an angle. If I test ride an F800 I will be sure to check that.

The only thing in the article that seemed completely wrong to me was in the DOWNS for the F800. After having an F650CS for over 5 years I can absolutley tell you that the gas cap under the seat is a great big huge UP. What can be more simple than pulling up to the pump, putting the bike on the side stand, leave the tank bag alone and fill the bike up. Since the opening is low it is very easy to see the level of the gas and not over fill it. And if you did over fill it the gas is not going to run all over the plastic where the tank usually is. I give Cycle World a Homer Simpson D'oh on that call.

The only other thing they should have made more mention of was the far superiority of the belt final drive. On my F650CS I now have 30,000 miles. I have never adjusted the belt, I have never lubed it, and I have never spent one single second washing chain lube off of the rear wheel.

[32232]

Rinty,
Maybe you meant 10 litres? 10 cu/ft is about what my station wagon holds.

The simple way to solve the luggage problem is what a LOT of F800 owners are doing. In effect, get the VFR luggage. The VFR uses Givi V35 bags with a special Honda outer cover. I've got the V35's on my F800 and they are far superior to the BMW bags IMHO, and a lot cheaper, as well. That eliminates one of the VFR advantages according to CW.

As far as range, I'm getting about 350km (217 mi.) before the fuel warning light comes on, at which point the computer is telling me I've got 90 km (56 mi.) to go. No advantage for the Honda there.

[rinty]

Maybe you meant 10 litres? 32232

Dave:

Whoops! I lapsed out of metric think when I posted that. :doh

I've corrected the post, and thanks for pointing that out. :)

My fuel range figures were calculated from the gas mileages published in the article. But both bikes were probably flogged for the write up, so we may assume CW's numbers are on the low side. But 55 miles per Imperial gallon for the ST is still a good number, in my opinion. What are you getting?

Rinty

[32232]

Mileage on a 1500 km trip on combined limited access highways & two lane roads, 2-up, loaded saddlebags, top case & tank bag was 7.2 l/100km. (67MPG Imperial).

My usual commute to work and local two lane riding around home is bringing about 3.9 l/100km (72MPG) I'm no slowpoke, as my riding buddies will attest, but like a smooth riding style. Most of this riding is shifting at about 5k with cruising about 100km/h. Mileage is nothing short of phenomenal.

[BradfordBenn]

Cynical Comment - Which one advertises in Cycle World?





Did I mention I really like my 1995 VFR?

[Oldhway]

Cynical Comment - Which one advertises in Cycle World?





Did I mention I really like my 1995 VFR?


Uh.... Both. Hmmm the plot thickens........

[knary]

I read the article and thought the F800 was fairly represented.

I'm glad they mentioned the short distance from the peg to seat. As someone who has had knee surgery it is very uncomfortable to have my knees bent at to sharp of an angle. If I test ride an F800 I will be sure to check that.

The only thing in the article that seemed completely wrong to me was in the DOWNS for the F800. After having an F650CS for over 5 years I can absolutley tell you that the gas cap under the seat is a great big huge UP. What can be more simple than pulling up to the pump, putting the bike on the side stand, leave the tank bag alone and fill the bike up. Since the opening is low it is very easy to see the level of the gas and not over fill it. And if you did over fill it the gas is not going to run all over the plastic where the tank usually is. I give Cycle World a Homer Simpson D'oh on that call.

The only other thing they should have made more mention of was the far superiority of the belt final drive. On my F650CS I now have 30,000 miles. I have never adjusted the belt, I have never lubed it, and I have never spent one single second washing chain lube off of the rear wheel.

I almost never get off the bike when filling up. Doing so seems to add at least 10 minutes to a stop - you're off so why not get a milky way, pee, drink something, get stuck chatting with some local, etc. Having to do so would just plain suck, IMHO.

[YELLOW_S]

Cynical Comment - Which one advertises in Cycle World?





Did I mention I really like my 1995 VFR?

You liked it so much you drove it to the MOA nationals instead of your Beemer... Trader! :nyah

[wezul]

I don't think Brad's a traitor, he's a Hoosier, I think.
Hey, the VFR is a fine machine, I own other brands than BMW (R12RT, F800ST), is that a sin?

[DarrylRi]

I almost never get off the bike when filling up. Doing so seems to add at least 10 minutes to a stop - you're off so why not get a milky way, pee, drink something, get stuck chatting with some local, etc. Having to do so would just plain suck, IMHO.

Hmmm. I enjoy getting off the bike and walking around a bit, stretching. I don't think I'd have visited the Hereford Cafe in Hereford, OR, if I hadn't gotten off the bike and chatted a bit with the local manning the pumps, for example. OR-245 is a pretty nice little road, too.

[bricciphoto]

The major disadvantage of the ST as a sport tourer, in my opinion, is it's luggage capacity, which is 10 litres, or 30%, less than the Honda. The VFR uses about 25% more fuel, but its fuel capacity is 1.7 gallons more, so its range is a bit higher than the ST's (217 miles to 190 miles).

Rinty

As far as the luggage is concerned I like the concept of the 10 liter-expandable to 25 liter bags on the F800. I got them with my F800ST. I also ride a R12ST with 32 liter side cases and there are times when I wish they were smaller, so the F800 bags aren't all bad--depending on what one's needs are during a particular excursion. It's nice to have small luggage when I'm not hauling extra stuff around. BUT I'll concede as a dedicated touring bike, there is definitely a disadvantage to the capacity of the F800 bags. :wave

[Mika]

Between a chain drive vtech Honda and a belt drive rotax, I'd bet the rotax would be the cheaper to run (nevermind the better fuel mileage).

I almost never get off the bike when filling up. Doing so seems to add at least 10 minutes to a stop - you're off so why not get a milky way, pee, drink something, get stuck chatting with some local, etc. Having to do so would just plain suck, IMHO.

Have a right - left brain argument going on there Knary? Trying to figure out ways to talk yourself out of selling the GS buying the Airhead and the a F? Give in Scott, you know how good Milkyways are.
:wave

[ultracyclist]

Aw...c'mon.....gimme a break, will ya?

They will write what grabs attention and sells.

In that the F800 is a new idea from BMW, they why not compare it with something that has been around for years and people are familiar with?

The proof will be in the pudding.

By the way, I like my Milky Ways frozen. So there.:)

[Mika]

Any press is good press.
Bad press is better than no press.
As press goes this was decent press as things go.

Besides as cliquish BMW riders do you want to new riders to our ranks who were only smart enough to buy an F800 because CW told them to? :stick

Freeze your Milky Ways and then carry them in your camel pack. Helps cool the water while giving a child treat to boot.
:wave

[knary]

Have a right - left brain argument going on there Knary? Trying to figure out ways to talk yourself out of selling the GS buying the Airhead and the a F? Give in Scott, you know how good Milkyways are.
:wave

:ha

Just a sincere evaluation of a bike. A bike isn't all good or all bad, is it?
I still want an F800GS.
But I still hate getting off a bike to fuel up.
It's a waste of precious time.
But then I also live in Oregon and have to deal with having a gas station attendant process the transaction. :banghead

[Mika]

Forgot about that issue.

When touring in OR in the past I thought it was a bit of a luxury to have a gas valet. Also thought that it would be a pain on a day to day basis.

Eureka! Cross over to Vancouver for gas. :lol

[knary]

Forgot about that issue.

When touring in OR in the past I thought it was a bit of a luxury to have a gas valet. Also thought that it would be a pain on a day to day basis.

Eureka! Cross over to Vancouver for gas. :lol

I absolutely hate it... as much as one can hate being mildly inconvenienced by a silly law that only eats a few minutes of your life each time you visit a gas station. Added up, I've given hours of my life away to this absurdity.

Is it enough to keep me off an F800? no. It is a pretty design (if a bit back heavy - kind of a junk in the trunk look), and allows the engineers to put the fuel where it better fits, not just where tradition puts it. But why anyone would think it's better to always have to get off the bike, I don't understand.

[Mika]

Okay another hijack, but one that takes us back to the CW article.

CW has been characterized as a variety of things including the propaganda arm of the UJM manufacturers, an advertising supplement masquerading as a motorcycle magazine to killer of the F800.

What do you expect from any magazine in a review such as this?

[mslscott]

Anyone read the Cycle World article "BMW F800ST vs. Honda Interceptor" in this months Cycle World? I read it and found it disturbing and bias for Honda. How does everyone else read it?http://www.cycleworld.com/article.asp?section_id=13&article_id=407

Somethings I found questionable were their power and torque rateings (I think they said they reported torque as 52 Ft/lb @8000 RPM, BMW reports it as 63 lb/ft @ 5800 rpm, and power as 85 bhp @ 8000 rpm). Also, they dinged the F800ST because it is a light bike compared to the Honda! I really think they were unfair to the F800ST!:nono

I've read the CW review, and I too felt it was fairly unbiased. In fact, after having read the article, I wouldn't mind owning both bikes. The BMW F800ST for my wife, and the Honda VFR800 for myself.

[twintoaster2]

Has anyone give'en thought of how much a valve adjustment would cost between the Honda and the Beemer. I know the Honda is between $400 and $600 thats if you need to add shims. Also the VFR may go threw front tires quicker.:drink :german JT

[kreinke]

I've read the CW review, and I too felt it was fairly unbiased. In fact, after having read the article, I wouldn't mind owning both bikes. The BMW F800ST for my wife, and the Honda VFR800 for myself.

"BMW's speedometer is to small, has a plastic urine cup for a brake fluid reseroir."
I notice they didn't say a word about the twin "urine cup" resovoirs(clutch and brake) on the Concourse 14 in the very same issure.
http://www.motorcycledaily.com/092306_concours_top.jpg
Don't get me wrong here. The VFR is a great bike with a long and honorable history....but then again so does the 883 Sportster.

Kidding aside, the things that make a good sport tourer for its intended audience are good handling, good gas mileage, reliability, and maintenance costs (which BTW CW made NO mention of). In these areas the F800 has the Interceptor beat.
Really, dinging a bike because of it's resovoirs? Look at the brake resovoir on this Gixxer. They didn't say anything about that.

http://performancemotorcycleproducts.com/images/GSXR1000-05%20
Blue.JPG

We've seen it from CW before. When they reviewed the Yamaha GTS1000 they loved the fact that the James Parker designed front end with hub center steering isolated the rider from bumps. When you have such a front end on a Beemer the magazines say they don't like the disconnected, vague feel.

Both say the same thing but in a glass half full/half empty context.

Why can Kawasaki's expensive supersport tourer and Ducati's Hypermotard have "urine-cup" resovoirs and not a BMW?

The article would have been more fair if the final paragraph would have said something like "The Interceptor is still good. But for BMW to design a bike this good right off the bat should put Honda on notice."

[Ridealot]

But why anyone would think it's better to always have to get off the bike, I don't understand.

O.K. I will attempt to explain it once again to you. If you actually ever travel somewhere on your bike you may find that a tank bag gives you the ability to carry things that you would like to have handy. Now suppose that every time you stopped for gas you had to either remove the tank bag or disconnect one end of it so that you could move it out of the way of the gas cap. With me so far? Now suppose that you could just leave the tank bag alone. On a F800 with the underseat tank simply swing a leg off the seat (if you rode any distance this would be a welcome move to walk around a little) and fill the tank without messing with the tank bag.

I always get off of my bikes to gas them up. Especially if I am doing a multi tank day. But then again my K bike tank is 9 gallons. It the end of that far its a pleasure to get off for awhile.

[Mika]

O.K. I will attempt to explain it once again to you. If you actually ever travel somewhere on your bike you may find ...

This could be fun, :lurk

[rinty]

Before I demo'd the F 800 S, I told the BMW Canada guy that the first thing the aftermarket would provide for it is a more aesthetic brake reservoir and hardware to move it to a less conspicuous position. He said he didn't think so, because BMW had tried about 17 different positions, and the one where the reservoir ended up at was the only one that would work.

Just passing this on......:dunno

Rinty

[PAGoldsby]

I always dismount when refueling. Having been killed in a fire once already in this life, I don't particularly relish the thought of having a lap full of burning gasoline.

[knary]

O.K. I will attempt to explain it once again to you. If you actually ever travel somewhere on your bike

If you're going to toss some stinky bait out, you can't just toss it in the water. You need to finesse it, give the line some artful tugs, if you the fish to take the hook.

p.s. You need to buy better tankbags.

[tessler]

If you're going to toss some stinky bait out, you can't just toss it in the water. You need to finesse it, give the line some artful tugs, if you the fish to take the hook.

p.s. You need to buy better tankbags.
Ah, yes... :) Knary and those olfactorial analogies (http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showthread.php?t=19490) again...

:lurk

[Braddog]

I'm glad they mentioned the short distance from the peg to seat. As someone who has had knee surgery it is very uncomfortable to have my knees bent at to sharp of an angle. If I test ride an F800 I will be sure to check that.


I read the article, and wasn't surprised by the results. I, too, was disappointed in the "urine cup" reference, given how Japanese manufacturers do the clutch and brake reservoirs. I guess they could put it under the tank, just like the old airheads used to.;)

I've not test ridden the F800 models, but have sat on both the S and ST. I was disappointed in the ST. My knees don't bend like they used to due to surgeries, injuries, etc. The "S" is actually more comfortable for me than the "ST". This is probably due to the greater lean forward or whatever. I don't know, I just know where I was more comfortable.

The VFR has almost ALWAYS had good reviews from mags. Considering that the F800 is a new model, and the VFR has evolved over 25 years, I think it did very well in comparison.

[KBasa]

A discerning reader in the market for either of these bikes would find that the details favor the BMW, despite the homage to the squids.

They try to sell quarter mile times as a factor, which is what squids read, but is not really relevant for these bikes.

The meat is in the details.

A 25 year old model vs. a new design.
Unscrapable pegs.
Adjustable width bags.
Smoother engine.
equal price tags. (the biggest draw for BMW right there!)
37 mpg vs. 46 mpg

The VFR is hardly a 25 year old model. It's a model that's been offered for 25 years, which is pretty longstanding. However, the current version arrived in 2002, I believe.

[OfficerImpersonator]

I had no idea one needed to remove one's tank bag to add fuel to a conventional motorcycle fuel tank...

http://www.bigmakaccess.com/

Mini-serve in Oregon does suck - big time.

I'll always top-off before entering Oregon just so I can avoid even having to consider buying gas in a state that doesn't trust it's citizens to fill their own tanks.

Oh - I rode a F800ST last week as a service loaner. It was a cute little toy. Didn't feel like there was much motorcycle beneath me, though. I felt like my chin was out over the front of the front tire. Guess I'm just too used to the size of the X5 - er - I mean RT.

[knary]

I had no idea one needed to remove one's tank bag to add fuel to a conventional motorcycle fuel tank...

http://www.bigmakaccess.com/

Mini-serve in Oregon does suck - big time.

I'll always top-off before entering Oregon just so I can avoid even having to consider buying gas in a state that doesn't trust it's citizens to fill their own tanks.

Oh - I rode a F800ST last week as a service loaner. It was a cute little toy. Didn't feel like there was much motorcycle beneath me, though. I felt like my chin was out over the front of the front tire. Guess I'm just too used to the size of the X5 - er - I mean RT.

Bigmak is local to me. Nice stuff, I guess, but I've never liked how they looked. Sort of expensive stuff.

Oregon trusts their citizens. They just think more people need jobs.

[rinty]

I don't like how they look either. Tank bags offer a delicate balance of convenience and inconvenience. On the one hand, they require a bit of work to put on and to slide back before refueling; on the other hand, they are a super convenient place to put all your little travelling do dads.

For short trips, I'm thinking of just getting a small satchel to put all my tank bag stuff in, and then placing that in the right saddle bag, which is my "road bag". And I don't use maps on those trips anyway.

urine cups

I just re read a Hyper Motard test, and noticed it has two of them. And this bike won Best of Show in Milan! So if they're aesthetic enough for Pierre Terblanche, perhaps we (well, probably just a very few of us) needn't agonize over them.:laugh

Rinty

[klrobins]

I thought the article was ok. Having owned a VFR and ridden the 800ST, I'd take the VFR hands down... Its much smoother in shifting, has a hydraulic clutch, and pretty much looks nicer imho. The ST is very similar in riding position and feel but I found the VFR a lot quicker and the vtec is awesome!

.... Then again my 1200GS kicks both the ST and VFR's butt, so maybe I'm biased?

[Kevin]

Motorcycle Consumer News has a 'gushing' write-up on the F800ST. Minor nit w/ the ABS activation (repeatability issue and brake feel).

Now let's see some of you complain about that article :)

Weight difference almost 20lbs. Somebody needs to calibrate their scale. (MCN lighter at 478lbs) Don't think the saddlebags would account for 20lbs if that was the difference in config.

Hmmmm ... still on the fantasy list for next Spring.

[rkasal]

And frankly, it turned me off of the 800ST which I have been considering adding to the stable. I like the 800 ST and have sat on a lowered version. Once I get ready to pull the trigger when prices are down this winter, I'll take it for a ride. I think once I ride one, it will be ok.

The part in question was the diving under braking. A couple of other nibbles but that is what concerned me as it is a BMW.

It's always good to take reviews and political opinions with a grain of salt.


Randy Kasal

[dlearl476]

The VFr has a chain drive whereas the Beemer has a belt (some F650CS owners have gotten over 100,000 miles out of theirs).




Pray tell, who is this person. I know of exactly ONE person with 100,000+ on a CS and IIRC, he's on his second (or third) belt. (if 3, one was due to a bad wheel pulley which was replaced under warranty)

[lenrt1200st]

I like the F800 series. But, the 2007 VFR has a bitch-in' red, white and blue livery! Which is a very nice rendering of the original Interceptor's color scheme.

I do wish Honda would uncork the V-4's power w/out resorting to variable valve timing, but the thing will run and hide from the F800 in the twisty, technical stuff per the CW article.

Len
Zeit Geist R1200ST

[dwestly]

My wife rides an 06 VFR ABS and I just traded my 06 VFR for an 07 1200GS. The ONLY reason I got rid of the VFR was that despite heli-bars and other mods, I couldn't get enough forward pressure off my wrists for long rides. I've ridden the ST, as well as just about every other current BMW (we know the BMW demo fleet guys and gals pretty well..), and we work part-time as volunteers for Honda, so have ridden everything they have as well. FWIW, my opinion is that the VFR is hands-down one of the best, most capable sport-touring bikes I've ever ridden (35 years of riding experience). It isn't spectacular in any one aspect of either the sport or touring categories, but it does all of them very well. My wife and I just completed a FL-CA-FL cross country trip of 7000 miles, and she did numerous back-to-back days of 600-700 miles (sometimes more), without a hitch. The bike is almost Gold Wing smooth, fast, good in the corners and bullet-proof. It gets between 45-50 mpg, loaded at touring speeds. The hard bags (OEM, made by Givi for Honda) look great, come factory-color painted to the bike, and are HUGE inside for their size. The bags can pack more than my OEM GS bags when they're expanded. They go on and off easy and are sturdy. In fact, while we were on the trip, we accidentally leaned the bikes against one another, and her plastic bag DENTED the aluminum side of my GS bag, with no damage to her plastic or paint. (I really like my GS, but I have several issues with the quality and design of the OEM bags...)

If there is a downside to the VFR, its the VTEC engine configuration, but not in terms of horsepower or torque, or even the horsepower surge with the extra valve cut-in at 6800 rpm (you use it to your advantage, ala dusting the ST). The problem is tune-ups and valve adjustments. The 16,000 miles valve adjustment, if done at the dealer (and its pretty complex for a do-it-yourselfer, you don't just adjust, but replace if out of spec), will run you somewhere between $800-$1100. Ask me how we know...

Anyway, there's no doubt the ST is a good bike. BMW doesn't make anything but excellent machines. Its one of the reasons I chose to go to the GS. It is just like others have said, the VFR has 25 years of refinement behind it, and it shows. Everyone on the Honda side was betting they were going to replace it this year, but its been brought back unchanged for 08 save a new color, silver. If you want a really good sport-touring machine for the price range, you can't beat it.

[rinty]

If I can go back to the urine cups for a moment, I saw a retro new Ducati on the weekend with aftermarket aluminum clutch and brake fluid reservoirs mounted, so I assume someone will be making them for the F 800 soon.

They look sharp.

Rinty

[rkasal]

And if I hadn't any exposure to Beamers, I would be persuaded to not look at one. I can't say to the opponent, but the BMW wasn't fairly reviewed in my opinion. The take away is if I didn't know any better, BMW wouldn't have a sale.

Regards,


Randy Kasal

[TourUp]

I took a trip this summer to Chicago from southern California on a F800ST- as far as luggage room is concerned: a pair of bungee cords are a blessed thing, and I was able to fit a tent, sleeping bag, food, books, plenty of water, and about a weeks worth of clothing. Riding through varying weather and conditions, the bike gave me no issues or real hiccups and was comfortable to a point (would look into possibly getting an after-market gel pad cushion).
When I got back home after 6k miles, I threw on a new pair of tires and checked in for the scheduled maintenance. Aside from touring, I use this bike as my commuter and have found it a joy to ride. The power band is nice, smooth, and predictable, but in reality, if you are a sport-bike rider, does leave something to be desired in the high end.
In the end, this bike serves its purpose well. It's a brilliant all-rounder that is able to compete with the likes of the Interceptor, a compliment into itself.

[coyotebmw]

Since I originally started this thread, I have put over 2400 miles on my F800ST and really do agree with "Tourup". The bike is a very good all round bike. The bags work well and the bike performs excellently in all conditions. In addition, I also use my bike for everyday commuting as well as long rides.

Shortly after buying the bike, I went to Mayhill Loops Road, down on the Columbia River south of Goldendale, WA. This is a designated historic road, as it was the first paved road in Washington State. It was build by Sam Hill as a demonstration of paving roads in Washington in the early 1900's, he also built the Maryhill estate that gives the road its name, and the Great Northern Railroad in Washington State. As a designated historic road, it is maintained in pristine condition, and is a dream to ride, fast! It is about 2 miles long and has 23 curves, three of which are hairpins! I was there as part of a campout of Motorcycle Safety Instructors who contract with Evergreen Safety Council here in Washington State.

Both the experience of riding my new bike there (about 600 miles round trip), and the experience of riding up and down the "loops road' for a day, gave me a real appreciation of the capabilities of the F800ST. It was a dream! As to the original post on this thread, what ever you get out of the Cycle World article is pretty much up to you. Each of us has different reasons, and preferences, when we ride. Like the old 1960's Honda ad said "different strokes for different folks".

We all share a common appreciation and enjoyment in riding BMW’s, but as a Motorcycle Instructor, I have found that saying is so true. What works for one person may not for the next. There are many, many different kinds, makes and models of motorcycles out there, and what is really important is that we ride, we enjoy our riding, and we share it with others.

[rinty]

An F 800 would have to be a fun ride on that road!

Rinty

[coyotebmw]

No Chicken Stripes after that ride (at least not much)!