It's going to hurt

[Tracey]

I'm looking for some advise.

Last weekend, a friend (Guzzi Rider) and I went for an adventure in the West Virgina / Kentucky mountains.

Near a little town called Gilbert in West Virgina my "02" R1150RT {66,000 miles} suddenly started making a really expensive sounding metal to metal noise. It also lost all forward power. This after about 6 hours of hard riding that day.

36 hours & $550 latter I left my baby at the dealership. They are guessing but think the clutch is gone.

Motor runs fine, seams to go into all gears fine with motor off or on. Sounds really bad...

Anybody had a similer experiance? How bad did it hurt?
:banghead

[alien_hitchhiker]

got splines?

[Tracey]

Nope, I guess not...

Dealer says clutch kit and spline, oh my...

Tell me o wise ones, what did I do wrong? I didn't think it was possible to ride a beemer to hard.

The bike went back to the dealer every year for service and I performed oil & filter changes and final drive lube every 3,500 miles. No warning that I noticed or I sure wouldn't have taken her out of state.

I thought I was taking good care of her!

[cjack]

Nope, I guess not...

Dealer says clutch kit and spline, oh my...

Tell me o wise ones, what did I do wrong? I didn't think it was possible to ride a beemer to hard.

The bike went back to the dealer every year for service and I performed oil & filter changes and final drive lube every 3,500 miles. No warning that I noticed or I sure wouldn't have taken her out of state.

I thought I was taking good care of her!

It happens. There is not much you can do one way or the other in normal use to cause a spline failure. Sorry it happened to you.

[bmwmick]

Tracey,
Can you take some pictures of the input shaft and clutch hub? If there is any barrel-=shaped wear, we 'may' be able to give you some advice. Misalignment is the only thing that will cause that type of wear. No amount of lube or inspection will fix it.

[nrpetersen]

I contend that any form of substantial wear in the clutch spline represents a likely alignment issue.

[PGlaves]

I contend that any form of substantial wear in the clutch spline represents a likely alignment issue.

Certainly true some of the times. But too broad a statement in my opinion.

Case in point. My wife's R1100RS wore out the clutch hub spline. The clutch was replaced and has lasted fine since. The failure happened at 202,000 miles and the bike now has 335,000 miles.

My K75 had 3 clutch disks installed over time. All 3 times because the splines in the clutch hub were worn. The lining material had plenty of life left. Even with the 4th clutch disk, the input shaft spline was fine. Those clutches were replaced at approximately 100,000 mile intervals.

None of these cases exhibited any indication of misalignment. Just eventual wear.

I have replaced clutch disks with worn splines on other BMW bikes over the years. I've found worn splines, rust, crud, and dry grease. Metal rubbing on metal, in a hot rusty environment spits out lubricant and eventually wears.

I just looked at a shot clutch/transmission shaft at a dealership - specifically looking for signs of a misalignment. I didn't find one - no irregular wear pattern other than very thin worn splines, but the little bit of lube left evident was crusty with red dust and other contaminants.

[hondarider]

I thought this thread was about a proctology visit...

[Tracey]

Well, it kind of feels that way. A little lube would help with either problem...:nyah

I will attempt to get pictures and/or expert opinions from the dealer.

Maybe I'm wrong but I remember trading in my R65 and learning that I didn't need to lube the spline on the new 1150RT. At the time I was in heaven and would have believed anything. My first NEW bike, that was 66,000 safe, happy miles ago. Several other bikes have come and gone while the Beemer carried me through all kinds of nasty weather, lonely roads and hazards. After this experiance I just don't know if I trust her anymore.

This forum is helping me regain that trust, thanks...

:bikes
"02" Moto Guzzi LeMans
"76" Moto Guzzi Convert

[2bikemike]

I thought this thread was about a proctology visit...

Yeah, well either way he's gotta bend over! :violin

[snoone]

Sounds like the dreaded 02 Spline Flu to me:banghead

[OfficerImpersonator]

Sounds like the dreaded 02 Spline Flu to me:banghead

Is there something specific to watch for on 02 RTs? This is the first I've heard of there being a problem that applies more to '02 RTs than other years/models...

[snoone]

Is there something specific to watch for on 02 RTs? This is the first I've heard of there being a problem that applies more to '02 RTs than other years/models...

I'm pretty sure there are all sorts of threads about spline/transmission problems with 02 engines not just rt's.. If you do some searching here in the forum and on adv you'll be overwhelmed with info on this subject.

[2bikemike]

I'm pretty sure there are all sorts of threads about spline/transmission problems with 02 engines not just rt's.. If you do some searching here in the forum and on adv you'll be overwhelmed with info on this subject.

Yeah, probably more info than he really wants. :laugh

[awagnon]

There was a survey of spline failures on the Sport Touring (RT) forum. I recall it happened to all years, but there was a cluster around the first part of 2002 bikes. As has been said, early spline failures (<25,000 miles) is usually misalignment, while after 50,000 miles is bad luck.

[screwtop]

........for resurrecting this thread (not that it's a bad one). I've labored over the spline failure issue as I have a 2002 GS. I'm always looking for ways to increase my comfort level, and stop worrying. My wife (a statistician) tells me that this issue is probably overblown, and contends that this is one of those situations where only a very few out of many, many, units have actually failed (you just hear alot about it when it happens). I've heard figures of 1 out of 500 or 1,000 units possibly affected from dealers.

Anyway, I try to subscribe to her logic (She's usually right on alot of things), but I'm considering having the bike torn down at the next 6K service (at which point I'll have 25K on the bike) to have the splines inspected and lubed. This will cost me about $300.00 to $400.00 extra, but I think it's worth the peace of mind. What do you guys think?

[alien_hitchhiker]

I think you have a smart wife.

I plan to check & lube my splines this winter - currently at 56,000 miles.

If your concern about a possible spline failure is interfering with your trust in the bike, the $300 may be worth it. Otherwise I'd wait till you're closer to 60K, which knowledgeable folks on this site seem to suggest as a prudent point to lube the splines.

[awagnon]

I'm not sure I would spend the money. To my knowledge, there is no evidence that spline lubing prevents failures. Most say just ride and don't worry about it.

[screwtop]

I'm not sure I would spend the money. To my knowledge, there is no evidence that spline lubing prevents failures. Most say just ride and don't worry about it.

Yeah, but 'cha can get 'em inspected to see if there's any premature wear couldn't ya?

[awagnon]

Quote: "Yeah, but 'cha can get 'em inspected to see if there's any premature wear couldn't ya?"

Perhaps, but what will you do with the information. You can lube the splines, but if the wear is due to misalignment, that won't prevent eventual failure. If you suspect misalignment, the damage would have to be pretty severe to justify the expense of what it takes to correct the problem.

I'm playing the "Devil's advocate" here. I agree knowing the condition of the splines is better in your garage shop than in the middle of Wyoming. I'm just not sure that justifies the cost. In all honesty, I will probably pull my transmission this winter and take a peek at the splines. It shouldn't cost me anything, unless I find a mess in there. I will be doing it mostly for the fun and experience. But I wouldn't pay to have it done. Just isn't worth it.

[PGlaves]

I'm not sure I would spend the money. To my knowledge, there is no evidence that spline lubing prevents failures. Most say just ride and don't worry about it.

If that is what "most say" - then most are wrong.

[awagnon]

Quote: "If that is what "most say" - then most are wrong."

Paul,

I certainly respect your opinion. You know infinitely more about wrenching than I do or anyone else on this forum. However, can you show me any BMW publication or service bulletin that recommends routine spline lubrication on the 1150RT series bikes? If not, can you give convincing data, and not just anecdotes, that routine spline lubrication prevents spline failure? If so, then you are right and most others are wrong.

[nrpetersen]

Remove the starter & critically inspect the clutch housing for debris around the clutch spline. My 2000 R1100RT at 18K was pristine vs pictures of others with failures which are anything but. Now I don't worry about it anymore.

[rgvilla]

I'm not an expert wrench, so I depend on my dealer to advise me. Craig Immel is the owner of Heritage BMW here in Pittsburgh and he is a very good BMW mech. He recommended to me that I have my splines lubed at the 42K service. I plan on following his advice. For the record I'm on a 99 R1100R currently at 38K miles. Just finished a 6K cross country ride and he ran like a top. No problems at all except for one nail in the rear tire outside of Indianapolis on the way home. After reading all the stories on this forum I was a little nervous, but got over it. All things mechanical have problems and BMW's are no different. sorry for your trouble. Fix it and ride on!

[PGlaves]

Quote: "If that is what "most say" - then most are wrong."

Paul,

I certainly respect your opinion. You know infinitely more about wrenching than I do or anyone else on this forum. However, can you show me any BMW publication or service bulletin that recommends routine spline lubrication on the 1150RT series bikes? If not, can you give convincing data, and not just anecdotes, that routine spline lubrication prevents spline failure? If so, then you are right and most others are wrong.

I really don't think arguing about this is very worthwhile. When metal rubs against metal it wears. So the factory lubricates the splines. The effectiveness of the lubricant is not infinite. Physical inspection of splines on numerous bikes including my 2003 R1150R disclose that the factory lubricant dries out. When that happens the rate at which the splines wear accelerates. In some cases dry, red dust is evident. In other cases, metal grindings are evident in the remains of the lubricant.

BMW doesn't preschedule a lot of things. Some of which I personally think they should. By way of example, they don't schedule relubrication of steering head bearings (on the bikes with steering head bearings) although it is well established that the grease dries out and hardens. They also don't schedule valve jobs or ring replacements. And lots of other things that ought to be done.

I have replaced a number of clutch disks that evidenced spline wear. Some with as few as 10K to 12K miles. Some with as many as 100,000 miles, but periodically lubricated. I am convinced that when the failure is early, it is premature and almost always caused by alignment problems. The wear pattern is pretty easy to interpret in these cases.

I have personally neglected to lubricate clutch splines because I was "too busy" and needed to get on the road. I've paid the price with accelerated wear which was obvious when I did remove the transmission. If the wear is only or mostly on the clutch hub it is no huge problem. But when the wear also effects the transmission input shaft things get expensive in a hurry.

From my experiences, I don't think most dealers or owners disagree with me.

[awagnon]

Quote: "I really don't think arguing about this is very worthwhile. "

I can agree on this statement since there is no way to prove benefit or lack thereof. All the evidence for or against is anecdotal. However, we'll just have to disagree on whether spending $300-400 dollars for a spline lube is money well spent.

[Tracey]

After about three weeks and $1200+ I got my baby back.

Rode the 25 miles home not feeling real good about it. The bike is covered with greasy fingerprints and all the out of state crud from the ill-fated trip. The mirrors shake like a Harley at start up and beyound.

When I pulled into the garage my wife asked about the smell and smoke!

{Clutch kit, new spline/drive shaft, new battery and 70,000 service}

I'm thinking, just a little spilled gear lube, don't worry...
4:15 a.m. the next morning I find a puddle of fresh gear lube roughy the size and shape of a used condom, now I'm worried and starting to get pissed off. I cleaned it up and went to work. About 13 hours later I'm home again and that puddle is back!

The dealer gets one more chance to set things right and any future views of my wallet. The same is true of BMW...:banghead