Lost my job!

[2BikeMike]

As some of you know, I have been off from work due to a back injury which required surgery. I have been out since Nov. 7 2006. My boss informed me on Tues. that if I did not return to work within 7 months I would be terminated. The 7 month window will close on June 7 2007. I am still under a Drs. care and expect to be so until July or August. Needless to say I am quite disturbed by this. I have held this job for over 17 years and have always been what I would say with out one bit of hesitation, a dependable, hard working, loyal employee. One that 99% of the time would work extra runs and do what ever was required to get the job done, even to the point of missing out on family events! And the sad thing is, there is nothing I can do about it!! There is no law in Tennessee that will prevent this from happening. I don't expect anyone to take care of me, but geez, give me a chance to heal up and at least attempt to go back to work!! I feel so betrayed. To be honest, I always expected to one day find myself without a job, but, I expected it to be under other circumstances, not because of some jerk in Westerville, OH. WHO DOESN'T EVEN KNOW ME!! or for that matter, knows anything about me. This SUCKS!:mad

[Belquar]

Sorry to hear that. Hope you can heal up and get back out there. This could be a blessing in disguise though. Maybe one door is closing so another one may open.

Good luck and get better.

Brian

[2BikeMike]

Sorry to hear that. Hope you can heal up and get back out there. This could be a blessing in disguise though. Maybe one door is closing so another one may open.

Good luck and get better.

Brian

Thanks Brian, yes you are right it could be a blessing in disguise. That happened to me many years ago and I was so glad to be shed of that job. Time will tell.:nod

[Rasbutan]

Have you asked to come back on a limited or part time basis?

On the other hand, you may not want to after your boss displayed such a foul attitude.

Good luck!! :thumb

[Slablog]

A year and a half off work for an injury and recovery sounds like a long time me.

More than that and I'd be thinking about SS disability.

[flash412]

A year and a half off work for an injury and recovery sounds like a long time me.Math is hard.

[flash412]

As some of you know, I have been off from work due to a back injury which required surgery. I have been out since Nov. 7 2006. My boss informed me on Tues. that if I did not return to work within 7 months I would be terminated. The 7 month window will close on June 7 2007. I am still under a Drs. care and expect to be so until July or August. Your loyalty is being paid back with perfidy.

Were you informed in writing? If not, be sure to get it in writing. Violate your doctors orders, do what your boss insists and go back to work... for ONE DAY. You'll probably hurt your back that day because you're not ready yet. The next day call in sick and go to your doctor and/or the hospital complaining about back pain from your on-the-job-injury that happened during your one day back on the job.

Workman's comp becomes an option. Your boss has to pay that.

[2BikeMike]

Have you asked to come back on a limited or part time basis?

On the other hand, you may not want to after your boss displayed such a foul attitude.

Good luck!! :thumb

That won't work in my line of employment, either all or nothing. How do you work for someone when you feel betrayed?:dunno

[Motor31]

Sorry to hear you may lose your job. Is there any long and or short term disability provision in TN. for on the job injuries?

Do you have any options through OSHA and the state offices that manage OSHA operations for training or other employment due to inability to return to your original job?

What does your Dr. say about a return to work in the original position before the deadline?

I ask as I went through a similar situation. I was determined to be disabled and unable to return to full duty. As a result the City and Department decided to pull my cerification. I ended up having to retire, early and without enough to really live on. I did get the state office of disability to test me for replacement job training and went on to work in 2 other areas totally unrelated to my main career field. That mayt be your other door opening if it comes to that point for you.

Good luck and best wishes in any case.

[2BikeMike]

Your loyalty is being paid back with perfidy.

Were you informed in writing? If not, be sure to get it in writing. Violate your doctors orders, do what your boss insists and go back to work... for ONE DAY. You'll probably hurt your back that day because you're not ready yet. The next day call in sick and go to your doctor and/or the hospital complaining about back pain from your on-the-job-injury that happened during your one day back on the job.

Workman's comp becomes an option. Your boss has to pay that.

Haven't been officially informed yet, supposedly it's in the works. My boss won't let me work unless I have a Drs. release.

[2BikeMike]

Sorry to hear you may lose your job. Is there any long and or short term disability provision in TN. for on the job injuries?

Do you have any options through OSHA and the state offices that manage OSHA operations for training or other employment due to inability to return to your original job?

What does your Dr. say about a return to work in the original position before the deadline?

I ask as I went through a similar situation. I was determined to be disabled and unable to return to full duty. As a result the City and Department decided to pull my cerification. I ended up having to retire, early and without enough to really live on. I did get the state office of disability to test me for replacement job training and went on to work in 2 other areas totally unrelated to my main career field. That mayt be your other door opening if it comes to that point for you.

Good luck and best wishes in any case.

My doc says I will be able to return to my job, but, I need time to recover and let the surgery heal. The ****ty people that I work for are not willing to give me any more time.

[riderR1150GSAdv]

Sorry to hear about you trouble. It seems that loyalty towards employees is waning fast. 17 years for one company apparently isn't enough anymore. WTF??
I hope that you get to keep your job, but I would look elsewhere for employment as your relationship with your boss has changed.

I once was asked how loyal I was to the company, I replied; "as loyal as the company is to me". 4 months later I was out. :dance ( I quit )

Good luck!!

[OfficerImpersonator]

Have you explored your options under the Family and Medical Leave Act (FMLA) or the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA)? It is my recollection that both were written with situations just like this in mind...

[sumran]

When you are ready to go back to work, what kind of work will you be looking for? Probably people that would be interested in a loyal employee that appreciates good machinery.

[Hodag]

and you wonder why my generation has no loyalty to our employers....

[2BikeMike]

Have you explored your options under the Family and Medical Leave Act (FMLA) or the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA)? It is my recollection that both were written with situations just like this in mind...

My boss says that the insurance company that carries our Worker's Comp. policy mandates that any employee that cannot return to work within the 7 month period must be terminated, no ifs, ands or buts. I have an appointment with an attorney on Friday to see if I have any options. Wish I had known this months ago. Wife is really freaking out.

[OfficerImpersonator]

I have an appointment with an attorney on Friday to see if I have any options.

I wish you luck - and that you're meeting with a good attorney!

If you don't mind my asking, were you hurt while on the job? It shouldn't make a difference, but your situation would be viewed much more favorably by decision-makers if you were hurt at work, and then terminated when you couldn't return to work within some arbitrary time period.

[2BikeMike]

I wish you luck - and that you're meeting with a good attorney!

If you don't mind my asking, were you hurt while on the job? It shouldn't make a difference, but your situation would be viewed much more favorably by decision-makers if you were hurt at work, and then terminated when you couldn't return to work within some arbitrary time period.

Yes, an on the job injury. I spoke with a Workers Comp. Specialist today, she told me that if I have a disability rating, such as 10, 20 or whatever percent, if I did not have a job to return to that would be part of the equation also. The wife wants me to go see the doc and, beg, if I must, to be released. I am of the persuasion to let nature take it's course as I don't want to hurt my chances of a full recovery.:nono

[OfficerImpersonator]

Yes, an on the job injury. I spoke with a Workers Comp. Specialist today, she told me that if I have a disability rating, such as 10, 20 or whatever percent, if I did not have a job to return to that would be part of the equation also. The wife wants me to go see the doc and, beg, if I must, to be released. I am of the persuasion to let nature take it's course as I don't want to hurt my chances of a full recovery.:nono

I agree with you - let the doctors make the determination about when you should return to work. I completely understand your wife's concerns, but I doubt a doctor would clear you for a return to work if you're really not ready. To reach the wrong conclusion simply because you begged for a release to return to work would expose the doctor to liability if you got hurt again because you returned too soon.

Knowing that you were injured on the job, I can say with some degree of confidence that you have a very strong position. If you don't mind, I'm sure I'm not the only one interested in hearing what the attorney has to say regarding your situation.

Again, GOOD LUCK! :thumb

[redrider]

I also would like to say that I am disturbed by your situation.Being from Canada I cannot comment with any authority on your plight but do wish you a speedy recovery.
You DO NOT want to re-injure your back by returning to work before your MD gives the OK as any further injury could make it difficult for the rest of your life.

all the best.

[Motor31]

What he said!

[rgvilla]

sorry man, and good luck, is there any sort of leave sharing policy where you work? In my job we can donate some of our vacation to sick employees who have run out of sick and annual leave. If the worst happens, and I hope it does not, let us know who the #%^&*##$ are and we will start a boycott.

[wsteinborn]

Have you explored your options under the Family and Medical Leave Act (FMLA) or the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA)? It is my recollection that both were written with situations just like this in mind...

FMLA is limited to 12 weeks I believe.

Maybe should have file short term disability....

[pcsof8]

Sorry to hear about that but as some have said, another door now opens.

On another thought, I never go out of my way for the company I work for. I will not miss family time for my company. In the long run they don't give a hoot about me anyway, as you now see with your incident. I have had a career change in mid life and see my past mistakes. To hell with these companies. Look at all those poor souls who are getting screwed out of their 401 K.
Spend time with your family, do your job well, but as far as that extra mile, F 'em.:bottle

[OHScot]

Time to reaccess and decide where you really want to be in life. Take the time to heal, go for the disability and make it happen. Could be the best thing that ever happened to you. Best of luck, rememeber nowadays 5 years is a long career with one employer.

[StevieWonder]

My doc says I will be able to return to my job, but, I need time to recover and let the surgery heal.

What type of work do you do? I have a friend in Alcoa who is always looking for good people.

[mikeinpittsburgh]

Hire the best lawyer you can find
Good luck

[snoone]

Sorry to hear about your situation.. My brother is an attorney in Philadelphia and he specializes in workers comp , social security and disability cases. Make sure you find someone with those qualifications.. It sounds to me like you have a good case.

[AllanCook]

Your loyalty is being paid back with perfidy.

Were you informed in writing? If not, be sure to get it in writing. Violate your doctors orders, do what your boss insists and go back to work... for ONE DAY. You'll probably hurt your back that day because you're not ready yet. The next day call in sick and go to your doctor and/or the hospital complaining about back pain from your on-the-job-injury that happened during your one day back on the job.

Workman's comp becomes an option. Your boss has to pay that.

This sounds right to me. It's certainly worth a try before losing your job.

[2BikeMike]

To clear up some details, I am already on worker's comp., so that benefit will continue until I am released by my doctor, but the company policy says that if you can't return to work within 7 mos., any employee is to be terminated, which will be June 7. To appease my wife and to get the docs. opinion I am going to see him Friday a.m. and I will describe the situation to him. I will ask if returning to work sooner than his plan originally called for will hurt my chances for a full recovery. If he has any reservations, then there will be no question that I will continue under his care. I have gotten to the point in my recovery that I really feel great each and every day and there ain't enough sand in the Sahara Desert to make up for that. I will give an update on Friday. Also, thanks to you guys for all the response and support.:thumb

[riderR1150GSAdv]

, but the company policy says that if you can't return to work within 7 mos., any employee is to be terminated, which will be June 7

This shows you that your boss and company don't give a rats behind about you or your 17 years with them. Get a good lawyer!!!! You got hurt on the job and now they want to weasel you out of your job??? On second thought, get an evil lawyer!! :deal :lurk

[rinty]

Mike:

In some jurisdictions, employment law is very complex, and very fluid, which calls for using an attorney who is a specialist in the area.

When you meet with your attorney, I would suggest you find out how much of this type of work he/she does, before you decide whether to retain him/her.

Rinty

[bobh41]

This is a very serious situation for you. Unless you have an alternate support system you may be faced with intolerable economic circumstances. Alternately, you could be risking your health - permanently. You need to forget about lawyers, etc. as your complany no doubt has all the bases covered. Do your own self examination: You know, even better than your doctor your strength and condition. The doc must rely mostly on "statistics" and rules of thumb in advising you - and advice is what he offers, not exact omniscient knowing. He also must abide by laws and ethics in counseling you.

I advocate a rigorous independent self-reliance. My ethic would have you insist - demand - that your doctor release you, go back to the job, tough it out, do the work, and get past this. That is, if you determine in your own mind that you can do it. If you in good conscience decide that you don't have the strengh to do your work, then you must throw yourself on the mercy of the prevailing winds, and suffer your fate along with millions of other people who have fallen by the wayside.

If you've worked steadily for 17 years then you probably don't realize how harsh and brutal life can be. The "safety nets" are steadily being taken down. Any of us who rely on wages have few safeguards for financial security. You must not take a passive role. Fake it if you can. I wish you the best.

[njnear]

Haven't read all the posts, but you might ask to return to work with light duty. If you're able to be up and around at home, sit in a chair etc. maybe you could sit at some desk and fill out spreadsheets, do copying, filing or just answer the phones. Maybe it's just 4 hours a day or 3 days a week and that could get buy you some more time.

On the other side of life, I was once laid off. Didn't realize it at the time but it was one of the best days of my life. Wouldn't be where I'm at now if that hadn't happened. The Lord works in mysterious ways.

[rmarkr]

Bummer Mike. Get well first - you cannot buy your health back - at any price.

Don't get back to work too soon - we'll miss you frequent postings!

:type

[2BikeMike]

Well, as promised, here is the update. I went to see my doc on Friday, I told him the situation I was facing with the job termination. He told me that not all people progress at the same rate(I knew that)and that I could go back to work next week and not have any problems at all. Or, I could go back to work next week and be faced with incomplete fusion of the bone implants and have to have the surgery repeated. I am half way thru the estimated 4 month recovery and my doc says that it is just too risky to go back to work at this time. I trusted him to do the surgery so I have to trust him now. I will not be returning to work any time soon. He also said that it was BULL**** the way the company was doing me. I agreed. Anyway, thats the story,so by Thursday I will be out of a job. But, I know in my heart that I gave 110 percent to my company while I was employed there and that I can say with out a shadow of doubt they will know that I am gone. :bolt

[ironMan]

The immortal words of Willy Loman ring truer each day

"You can't eat the orange and throw the peel away-a man is not a piece of fruit”


Unfortunately we are all becoming oranges.

[riderR1150GSAdv]

That is just so wrong.:bluduh
Healing up well is more important than a job where you're apparently not appreciated anyway.
Good luck to you!!

[2BikeMike]

This is a very serious situation for you. Unless you have an alternate support system you may be faced with intolerable economic circumstances. Alternately, you could be risking your health - permanently. You need to forget about lawyers, etc. as your complany no doubt has all the bases covered. Do your own self examination: You know, even better than your doctor your strength and condition. The doc must rely mostly on "statistics" and rules of thumb in advising you - and advice is what he offers, not exact omniscient knowing. He also must abide by laws and ethics in counseling you.

I advocate a rigorous independent self-reliance. My ethic would have you insist - demand - that your doctor release you, go back to the job, tough it out, do the work, and get past this. That is, if you determine in your own mind that you can do it. If you in good conscience decide that you don't have the strengh to do your work, then you must throw yourself on the mercy of the prevailing winds, and suffer your fate along with millions of other people who have fallen by the wayside.

If you've worked steadily for 17 years then you probably don't realize how harsh and brutal life can be. The "safety nets" are steadily being taken down. Any of us who rely on wages have few safeguards for financial security. You must not take a passive role. Fake it if you can. I wish you the best.

Well Bob, I am not quite ready to throw in the towel and just give up on life, you make it sound like that my life will end if I choose to go with my doctors advice. I may very well lose my job, but I can still earn a living, just not sure how at this point. I have been self sufficent for 30 plus years now and expect to be so for quite a few more. I may not earn as much or may not enjoy the same standard of living, but if I insisted on going back to work too soon, I have no guarantee that I would be any better off. When receiving workers comp. benefits, I am obligated to follow doctors orders or advice or lose those benefits :deal . As I stated in my last post I trusted the doc to operate, and do the bone implant, I gotta trust him now.

[2BikeMike]

Bummer Mike. Get well first - you cannot buy your health back - at any price.

Don't get back to work too soon - we'll miss you frequent postings!

:type

Thanks Mark, I just read your profile, maybe I could live in your garage.:laugh AHHHH...life at the beach. :thumb

[Mar]

I feel so betrayed. To be honest, I always expected to one day find myself without a job, but, I expected it to be under other circumstances, not because of some jerk ...

Sometimes those things happen. It's happened to me. But as Belquar said, sometimes one door closes and another opens. It doesn't seem like it now but that jerk may be doing you a favor.

[Slablog]

Math is hard.

Yep! Figgered that one wrong, didn't I? Oh well, sorry 2bike mike. I was only 12 months off.:uhoh

(I could have sworn that said 2005.) :dunno

Good luck, dude.

[2BikeMike]

Yep! Figgered that one wrong, didn't I? Oh well, sorry 2bike mike. I was only 12 months off.:uhoh

(I could have sworn that said 2005.) :dunno

Good luck, dude.

Thanks,good thing you teach art :laugh .

[Rapid_Roy]

Sorry to hear about the injury. IMO, you did the right thing because healing and health is better in the long run, than your job. It's too bad it had to come to that, I hope everything works out employment wise.

[Bobmws]

FMLA is limited to 12 weeks I believe.

Maybe should have file short term disability....

Mike,
Find out if they ever put you on FMLA. If not, go in immediately and make a formal written request. This will buy you 12 weeks of saving your job. The other alternative is to have your Dr give you a disability rating and apply for a position under the ADA, which would be a lighter duty job. When you have finished healing, have the Dr sign you off and reapply for your former status.
I did the ADA thing after back surgery (discectomy), and returned to full duty a year later.
Oh, and forget what the workmans comp people tell you, they are working for your Boss. Get a real good attorney.
Good Luck.

[osbornk]

Sometimes those things happen. It's happened to me. But as Belquar said, sometimes one door closes and another opens. It doesn't seem like it now but that jerk may be doing you a favor.

A serious back injury (5 compression fractures of lumbar vertebras) 39 years ago changed the direction of my life. I was going to college and barely passing because the only reason I was going was to avoid the draft until there was an opening in the reserves (at least one year wait). I planned on working on and selling cars the rest of my life. After the accident, I found I would never be pain free and I would never be able to do hard physical work. This forced me to study, complete college and get a good job. Since I knew my back pain would increase as I aged, I made plans when I was 24 to retire at 55. I retired 4 years ago at 55 and even though I am in constant pain, I am able to ride my bikes most days. Had I not had the back injury, I would probably have had to work until I died and not had the money or time to ride my bikes.

[carockwell]

Being married to an attorney who USED to do employment law in California, if the company "fires" you after an on the job injury you can sue and would almost certainly win. Many companies try this game of firing workers injured on the job telling the employee that it is company policy. Company policy or not, the law says they are liable. They don't even want to think about what a jury of your peers might award, so they almost always settle out of court. Unfortunately, suing is always a long stressful process that is often not worth the emotional pain, especially when you are injured. I think you should see a personal injury lawyer. In California at least, your case would be very "automatic". It pays to get advice from a lawyer before they actually "fire" you. Personal injury lawyers are easy to find. Always look for a small firm with an attorney who has been practicing in your county for at least 5 years. It sucks, but so does your employer, they know they are breaking the law and their own responsibility. If we allow companies to behave like this without fighting back the situation will only get worse for everybody who follows.

[Rapid_Roy]

I hope you get an even better new job and we can call you 3 or 4bikeMike.
(4bikeMike does have a ring to it). I wish you speedy healing.

[EastKy]

If you are on workers comp, could you find out what the law says about this time period? Workers comp would be able to tell you what time period you are protected, that way you know if the company has its own policy or using the workers comp policy. How big is this company? Has anyone else been off for a similar injury? Did you know that you was going to be off this long in the beginning? What does your doctor limit you to?

[lamble]

Look on the bright side.

I've just landed a full time job and now my riding time is being seriously hampered.

Hope all works out well for you, as I must admit it sounds unfair.

[2BikeMike]

Look on the bright side.

I've just landed a full time job and now my riding time is being seriously hampered.

Hope all works out well for you, as I must admit it sounds unfair.

Well it's official now, I received my termination papers via overnight delivery. I guess they wanted me to know real quick! My only objective was to get healthy and return to work and get back to a normal life, I wasn't looking for any quick money. I felt like they owed me that after 17 years of service. But now I have retained an attorney and I want every dime that I can get. Is that wrong?

[mjm4967]

No thats not wrong. I hope you get all of the justice your looking for. I hope you are able to heal up and get on with your life. I do hope you can get past this.

[tdomek]

Well it's official now, I received my termination papers via overnight delivery. I guess they wanted me to know real quick! My only objective was to get healthy and return to work and get back to a normal life, I wasn't looking for any quick money. I felt like they owed me that after 17 years of service. But now I have retained an attorney and I want every dime that I can get. Is that wrong?

Remember, the attorney takes AT LEAST a third.

I'm just sayin'... :dunno

[2BikeMike]

Remember, the attorney takes AT LEAST a third.

I'm just sayin'... :dunno

20 %.. but he knows the process...23 years experience. Me? I don't know jack.:dunno

[Motor31]

Does he say you have a case? What is his idea of a percent chance you'll prevail?

[2BikeMike]

Does he say you have a case? What is his idea of a percent chance you'll prevail?

He told me that I have a good case, :thumb at this point he is trying to get me reinstated, but I'm not sure that will happen. I believe I have a very competent attorney. My wife was having a conversation with someone, it turned to lawyers, this person said," well if I had to hire an attorney I would hire so and so" . So and so is my attorney! :laugh

[OfficerImpersonator]

Remember, the attorney takes AT LEAST a third.

I'm just sayin'... :dunno

So lawyers aren't entitled to earn a living? Lawyers should only accept "slam dunk" cases, and not take on risky cases that might result in no award or judgment? Poor people who can't afford to put a $250/hr. attorney on retainer for - sometimes - years of work should forget attempting redress through our legal system?

I get so mad when people criticize attorneys for getting paid for their work!

If you had any idea what it costs to bring a personal injury or similar tort (fired from job for getting injured on the job is a perfect example) to trial, you might be a little more understanding of how the industry works.

One deposition can cost thousands of dollars in court reporting fees. Hired experts (accident re constructionists, doctors, engineers, etc.) can cost many tens of thousands of dollars per expert. Attorneys have rent and staff and office supply expenses to pay. All these costs are "eaten" by the contingency attorney if no monies are recouped. All the risk is borne by the attorney.

The plaintiff is suing because they were wronged. They weren't going to get squat without the lawyer, so $$$ minus 20% or 33% or even 50% is still orders of magnitude better than squat!

[rinty]

Mike:

The fact that your lawyer will work the file on a contingency basis indicates that he is confident about the strength of your position.

Rinty

[username]

Mike:

The fact that your lawyer will work the file on a contingency basis indicates that he is confident about the strength of your position.

Rinty

exactly. these guys have seen brazilians of these kinds of cases and they know ahead of time how risky it really is for them.

lawyers not making anough money... :violin

theyre worth a lot of money most of the time, i agree, but i don't shed any tears for them failing to make as much as they possibly could. i havent seen too many of them missing meals.

[dancogan]

...lawyers not making anough money... :violin

theyre worth a lot of money most of the time, i agree, but i don't shed any tears for them failing to make as much as they possibly could. i havent seen too many of them missing meals.
Check the statistics some time. If you take the time to educate yourself on the subject, you'll find a relatively modest average salary, with a minority of big hitters making big money. I know you're a highly educated and intelligent person-just wondering if you've ever seen the statistics. ;)

[bobh41]

But now I have retained an attorney and I want every dime that I can get. Is that wrong?

The right or wrong is strictly up to you. With that said, once you hire an attorney you're at war with your adversary. The attorney will have a set of guidelines to follow in pursuing compensation for you. Whatever damages he proposes - and you agree upon - you must dismiss morality issues and go for the win.

Good luck.

[2BikeMike]

The right or wrong is strictly up to you. With that said, once you hire an attorney you're at war with your adversary. The attorney will have a set of guidelines to follow in pursuing compensation for you. Whatever damages he proposes - and you agree upon - you must dismiss morality issues and go for the win.

Good luck.

That is very true, I did not want anything other than to get healthy and return to work. When they decided to terminate me I had no other avenue than to hire an attorney.:deal They put me in this position and now there is no turning back.

[osbornk]

Check the statistics some time. If you take the time to educate yourself on the subject, you'll find a relatively modest average salary, with a minority of big hitters making big money. I know you're a highly educated and intelligent person-just wondering if you've ever seen the statistics. ;)

So true. There are many excellent attorneys making a modest salary because they haven't had the big verdict that made headlines. People go to attorneys who have a reputation for getting big verdicts for their clients. The best advertising for an attorney is being fortunate enough to win a big case that the news media covered extensively. People don't pay enough attention to understand whether the case was an easy case that just happened to be worth a lot of money or whether the attorney had to work hard to prove liability and damages. Many smaller cases are more work for the attorney than some large ones. The difference is frequently the severity of the damages or low policy limits with limited assets.

[tdomek]

Did I criticize ANYONE?

I have just come out of a two year long child custody battle. My attorney represented me competently and his fee was a bargain at twice the price. So, yes, I am intimately acquainted with the costs of legal action.

This is hardly the point.

The point is that the monetary cost must be considered. People often "sue first and ask questions later". Cost/benefit analysis must be done and a value judgment made in the cold light of day when considering any such endeavor. Also there are other avenues of action; state and federal agencies specialize in labor relations without cost to the complainant.

My statement was made to prompt consideration of the entire process and possible outcomes. I believe that you would do well to do the same before you make such ill-considered, inflammatory statements in a public forum.


So lawyers aren't entitled to earn a living? Lawyers should only accept "slam dunk" cases, and not take on risky cases that might result in no award or judgment? Poor people who can't afford to put a $250/hr. attorney on retainer for - sometimes - years of work should forget attempting redress through our legal system?

I get so mad when people criticize attorneys for getting paid for their work!

If you had any idea what it costs to bring a personal injury or similar tort (fired from job for getting injured on the job is a perfect example) to trial, you might be a little more understanding of how the industry works.

One deposition can cost thousands of dollars in court reporting fees. Hired experts (accident re constructionists, doctors, engineers, etc.) can cost many tens of thousands of dollars per expert. Attorneys have rent and staff and office supply expenses to pay. All these costs are "eaten" by the contingency attorney if no monies are recouped. All the risk is borne by the attorney.

The plaintiff is suing because they were wronged. They weren't going to get squat without the lawyer, so $$$ minus 20% or 33% or even 50% is still orders of magnitude better than squat!

[username]

Check the statistics some time. If you take the time to educate yourself on the subject, you'll find a relatively modest average salary, with a minority of big hitters making big money. I know you're a highly educated and intelligent person-just wondering if you've ever seen the statistics. ;)

[note: this was fun to type. dan, i hope you get a chuckle from some of it. :D )

dan, whereas you bring up an excellent point, and whereas i havent checked said attorney employment statistics, i just know a bunch of attorneys, and theyre all doing pretty well. whereas they practice in a variety of industries, and some arent even practicing law per se, but work as "counsel" in a company, managing external attorneys and that sort of thing. (save as herein as otherwise stipulated, "lawyer" is a ridiculously non-specific term in my opinion.)

whereas i realize that my opinions are often held casually, temporarily, permanently, or on secondment, i thought i'd poke around and see what i could see via google with respect to this discussion in an effort to make a reasonable attempt to educate myself.

i googled "lawyer average salary" and i found this image here. (http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Attorney_%2f_Lawyer/Salary)
http://leetonium.com/misc_images/lawyer%20pay.jpg

this site (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_money_does_a_lawyer_earn) has similar figures. they point out that the bottom 10% of attorneys earn 44k or less. the top 10% exceeded 130k or so. i assume that you would like me to balance my opinion by not thinking of all the glam guys that i read about in the paper that are high earners. so let's call them the top 10%. if i do that, i would also argue that i should ignore the bottom 10% too for being equally anamolous. so if we look at median numbers we typically see annual compensation in the 60s to 90s. (the figures seem to vary) so on average, let's say an attorney is going to earn 60-90k.

is that a good wage?

this site (http://ask.yahoo.com/20040518.html) has a little "dear abby" like thing and they determined that in 2002 the average salary in the US was ~37k.

so if the average attorney makes only 60k, which is likely a downward skewing on my part, they still make 50% more than the average US worker. so i'm still not shedding tears pursuant to said attorneys. as a population they are doing well for themselves.

i'm sure there are brazilians of stats on this stuff and exceptions can be cited ad nausea. i think the bottom line is that a proponderance of the evidence indicates that the average attorney (one of ordinary prudence) is making more money than the average US worker. i also dont think there is anything wrong with that. i like it when people make a lot of money, it's a good thing. but i dont feel sorry for them, and i dont feel sorry for the attorneys that represent the bottom 10% of the scale and are only making 30 or 40k. they are either altruistic and choosing not to earn as much as they could in exchange for some other form of affirmation in their lives, or they are incompetent. (every profession has some percentage of people that shouldnt be in the profession and do a crappy job.)

and to put it in the perspective that i typically think about, i dont feel too bad for US citizens in general. we've got it pretty good. i also realize that my response to this thread puts you under no obligation to respond, agree, or adhere to any of the opinions therein.

;)

[OfficerImpersonator]

so if the average attorney makes only 60k, which is likely a downward skewing on my part, they still make 50% more than the average US worker. so i'm still not shedding tears pursuant to said attorneys. as a population they are doing well for themselves.

Keep in mind that these days, the average law school graduate who has just passed the bar exam starts looking for work already owing close to six figures in student loan debt. I work for the local Public Defender, and most of my colleagues have monthly student loan payments that are equal to their monthly mortgage payment. Considering Seattle-area housing prices, we're talking about writing two $1500 checks a month - one to the mortgage company/landlord and one to the student loan servicing company.

That's a big nut to crack each month.

By the way, starting salary at my firm is approximately $40,000/yr., with no retirement plan. Prosecutors start at around $65,000/yr. with an excellent retirement plan.

Most lawyers lead fairly pedestrian lives, buy and drive used cars, live in boring homes, don't take lavish vacations, and are just trying to pay the bills each month - just like everyone else. That they've chosen to spend 7+ years in college and law school educating themselves shouldn't be held against them.

[osbornk]

Keep in mind that these days, the average law school graduate who has just passed the bar exam starts looking for work already owing close to six figures in student loan debt. I work for the local Public Defender, and most of my colleagues have monthly student loan payments that are equal to their monthly mortgage payment. Considering Seattle-area housing prices, we're talking about writing two $1500 checks a month - one to the mortgage company/landlord and one to the student loan servicing company.

That's a big nut to crack each month.

By the way, starting salary at my firm is approximately $40,000/yr., with no retirement plan. Prosecutors start at around $65,000/yr. with an excellent retirement plan.

Most lawyers lead fairly pedestrian lives, buy and drive used cars, live in boring homes, don't take lavish vacations, and are just trying to pay the bills each month - just like everyone else. That they've chosen to spend 7+ years in college and law school educating themselves shouldn't be held against them.

In addition, the attorney has lost 3+ years of income after the BA or BS degree in addition to the $100K he or she owes in student loans. He or she may start at a firm with a modest salary but they have to buy appropriate attire for the job. If an attorney wants to establish his own firm, the income may appear large but after expenses such as rent, secretarial help, etc, the net is far less.

[Montana]

(I'm not taking a position here, this is directed to Mike and not the lawyer issue...)

Typically, the lawyer wants "costs plus contigency fee" which means you will be billed for lots of actual items, such as depositions, travel, copying, transmittals, etc. THEN you might get a settlement, and that's where the fee gets calculated and added to those costs. Just be prepared, is my point.

Another thing you should do is ask the lawyer if there is anything you need to be doing that increases your chance of favorable settlement. For example, in Montana, wrongful discharge suits take into consideration offsetting income, and it's only a four-year window, so if I was in your situation I would need to show I looked for work, even if I'm not able to actually accept a job. I know it's stupid, but that's the way the legislation got written to limit exposure for employers.

[username]

Keep in mind that these days, the average law school graduate who has just passed the bar exam starts looking for work already owing close to six figures in student loan debt. I work for the local Public Defender, and most of my colleagues have monthly student loan payments that are equal to their monthly mortgage payment. Considering Seattle-area housing prices, we're talking about writing two $1500 checks a month - one to the mortgage company/landlord and one to the student loan servicing company.

That's a big nut to crack each month.

By the way, starting salary at my firm is approximately $40,000/yr., with no retirement plan. Prosecutors start at around $65,000/yr. with an excellent retirement plan.

Most lawyers lead fairly pedestrian lives, buy and drive used cars, live in boring homes, don't take lavish vacations, and are just trying to pay the bills each month - just like everyone else. That they've chosen to spend 7+ years in college and law school educating themselves shouldn't be held against them.

i'm confused, what's being held against them? are you saying that lawyers should not be held responsible for the debt they accrue while in college?

i'm also reasonably sure that staying in college for 7 years is not compulsory, it's a choice. it's also a choice to pick a major, and a choice to borrow money or find another, possibly more arduous path to a degree. but we are running the risk of going off topic on our thread hijack! :D if someone wants to have a subdiscussion about how some careers require extra schooling and lots of up front capital to obtain the degree, that's a different discussion.

let's recap - in this thread [hijack] some folks have asserted that our (my?) general perception of attorneys is incorrect and that lawyers don't make all that much money. i am agreeing to throw out the extremes at both ends (top and bottom 10% earners) and am asserting that the average lawyer has a higher salary than the average american. i'm saying that attorneys have chosen a career that provides a good living. i was challenged to examine the statistics, and in true internet arguing fashion i spent ten minutes reading the results of a google search to develop and refine my argument.

i need someone to refute the claim that i posted above that attorneys on average earn ~50% more than the average US worker's salary, and the subclaim that if you are earning 50% more than the average, you should be happy about it and not whine about how hard your life is. otherwise, i win the discussion. (i have balloons suspended in a net over my desk here, and if i sense that i win an internet discussion, i release them and play "we are the champions" by queen. :ha )

if no one can refute the claim, and everyone has run out of red herrings (debt, time in school, etc) then there is no other choice but to equate me with hitler and then we can move the discussion back to the original topic which was 2bikemike's employer only holding his job for 7 months and him seeking legal help to keep his job so that when his body heals he can go back and be an awesome employee.

and somehow, NO ONE has told a lawyers joke in this thread, and i find that amazing. :ha

[OfficerImpersonator]

i need someone to refute the claim that i posted above that attorneys on average earn ~50% more than the average US worker's salary, and the subclaim that if you are earning 50% more than the average, you should be happy about it and not whine about how hard your life is. otherwise, i win the discussion. (i have balloons suspended in a net over my desk here, and if i sense that i win an internet discussion, i release them and play "we are the champions" by queen. :ha )

Que Freddy Mercury.

Granted: Attorneys make more than the "average" U.S. worker.

But - what is the "average U.S. worker" doing? Slinging burgers? Stocking shelves overnight at a big box retailer?

Are prosecutors, public defenders, public interest attorneys working for non-profit agencies not performing essential services?

This may be news to many, but most people don't enter the field because they want to get rich - they do it because it's a path to a career that allows one to make society a better place.

[username]

Que Freddy Mercury.

i can't play it just yet. i have to wait for my friend dan, who flagrantly exposed my ignorance and lack of data to examine my arguments, and at the very least tell me it was funny that i put that legalese into my reply, and at most that i'm right. :D

Granted: Attorneys make more than the "average" U.S. worker.

But - what is the "average U.S. worker" doing? Slinging burgers? Stocking shelves overnight at a big box retailer?

i have no idea. i assume that a salary of 37k covers a wide variety of jobs - entry level for many careers, and others might top out at that.

Are prosecutors, public defenders, public interest attorneys working for non-profit agencies not performing essential services?

This may be news to many, but most people don't enter the field because they want to get rich - they do it because it's a path to a career that allows one to make society a better place.

agreed. i think we agree on all this stuff. this is a good conversation. it's hard to have because people are so touchy. many people view lawyers in a negative light, and often lawyers are.... wait for it.... defensive, so tempers can flare.

i just hope 2bikemike gets healthy soon and can start riding and working again.

[2BikeMike]

i just hope 2bikemike gets healthy soon and can start riding and working again.[/QUOTE]

Awww Geez, come on now don't make me :cry. Your compassion is most appreciated!!! :buds