Is gasoline expensive?

[PAULBACH]

RedRider sent this to me earlier in the week. I was going to add it to the joke thread but then I thought ... is this funny or is it sad? What is your perspective?

The price of water is the kicker. I notice water fountains are slowly being removed in public places.

All these examples do NOT imply that gasoline is cheap; it just illustrates how outrageous some prices are....


You will be really shocked by the last one!!!!

Compared with Gasoline...... Think a gallon of gas is expensive?

This makes one think, and also puts things in perspective.

Diet Snapple 16 oz $1.29 ... $10.32 per gallon

Lipton Ice Tea 16 oz $1.19 ..........$9.52 per gallon

Gatorade 20 oz $1.59 .... $10.17 per gallon

Ocean Spray 16 oz $1.25 ......... $10.00 per gallon

Brake Fluid 12 oz $3.15 ......... $33.60 per gallon

Vick's Nyquil 6 oz $8.35 ... $178.13 per gallon

Pepto Bismol 4 oz $3.85 .. $123.20 per gallon

Whiteout 7 oz $1.39 ....... . $25.42 per gallon

Scope 1.5 oz $0.99 .....$84.48 per gallon

And this is the REAL KICKER...

Evian water 9 oz $1.49..........$21.19 per gallon!

$21.19 for WATER

and the buyers don't even know the source .

(Evian spelled backwards is Naive.)
Ever wonder why computer printers are so cheap?

So they have you hooked for the ink.

Someone calculated the cost of the ink at................

you won't believe it...................

but it is true.........................

$5,200 a gal. (five thousand two hundred dollars)

So, the next time you're at the pump,
be glad your car doesn't run on water, Scope, or Whiteout, Pepto Bismol, Nyquil
or God forbid, Printer Ink!!!!!

[osbornk]

Nothing makes me madder than overpriced bottled water. Almost all of it is simply filtered tap water (my son-in-law is an engineer where they bottle one brand).

My friend and I found ourselves in Rogersville, TN at lunch the other day on our weekly Wednesday ride (ain't retirement wonderful?) and we decided to eat a a local SUBWAY. As I always do, I asked for water with my sandwich. They refused to give me water with the statement "We don't serve water, we sell bottled water". I almost walked out but didn't since my friend had already been served and my sandwich had already been prepared. I ate my sandwich without a beverage and got madder as I rode home. That was the first time I was ever refused water in my 59 years on this earth.

When I got home, I e-mailed a complaint to Subway and sent a letter to the editor tothe local paper. The next evening, I got a response from the local Subway owner. It read as follows:

Mr. Osborne
I am truly sorry form the problem you had at my Rogersville Subway this week. Subway has changed, all Subway Restaurants has to carry bottled water in their stores, this store has had their water nozzel taken off the machine, the only water in a cup would have to come from the hand sink. According to health regulations this is not sanitary. But the employee could have offered you a cup of water from the sink anyway and i am sorry for that. I will post your name up in my store and the next time you want to eat here it will be taken care of or i can send you a coupon for another location. My email is malonepatricia45@yahoo.com or feel free to call me at home 423-272-0278 or either on of my work numbers 423-921-7600/423-272-2765 any time.

Thank you
Patricia Malone
Owner

[BubbaZanetti]

Nothing makes me madder than overpriced bottled water. Almost all of it is simply filtered tap water (my son-in-law is an engineer where they bottle one brand).

My friend and I found ourselves in Rogersville, TN at lunch the other day on our weekly Wednesday ride (ain't retirement wonderful?) and we decided to eat a a local SUBWAY. As I always do, I asked for water with my sandwich. They refused to give me water with the statement "We don't serve water, we sell bottled water". I almost walked out but didn't since my friend had already been served and my sandwich had already been prepared. I ate my sandwich without a beverage and got madder as I rode home. That was the first time I was ever refused water in my 59 years on this earth.

When I got home, I e-mailed a complaint to Subway and sent a letter to the editor tothe local paper. The next evening, I got a response from the local Subway owner. It read as follows:

Mr. Osborne
I am truly sorry form the problem you had at my Rogersville Subway this week. Subway has changed, all Subway Restaurants has to carry bottled water in their stores, this store has had their water nozzel taken off the machine, the only water in a cup would have to come from the hand sink. According to health regulations this is not sanitary. But the employee could have offered you a cup of water from the sink anyway and i am sorry for that. I will post your name up in my store and the next time you want to eat here it will be taken care of or i can send you a coupon for another location. My email is malonepatricia45@yahoo.com or feel free to call me at home 423-272-0278 or either on of my work numbers 423-921-7600/423-272-2765 any time.

Thank you
Patricia Malone
Owner




i usually take the sink water at subway, but then again i drink the water in mexico, spain and all those other places i shouldn't. i just consider it making myself microbe resistant:laugh

one of my favorite beers, cantillion has a couple of products that are around 40 dollars for 12 oz. that figures in at a little over 425 dollars a gallon:drink

[GSTom]

When I was younger, gasoline was from $0.25 to $0.30 per gallon, depending on the same type of market fluctuations we see today.
A candy bar was $0.05. A bottle of pop was $0.10.
The cost of that gallon of gas was therefore about the same cost as 6 candy bars or 3 bottles of pop.
Is that so today? A bottle of pop at the convenience mart is $1.19 to $1.29. Candy bars are around $0.60 I think (I rarely buy one). So in constant value, a gallon of gas is still 6 candy bars or 3 bottles of pop.

Some of you can remember when a hamburger, fries, and a drink at McDonald's could be had for under a dollar. Now you pay $5.00 for a "meal" at the golden arches.

Is gas too expensive?:dunno

Seems like it is about the same as it always has been.

[Visian]

Some of you can remember when a hamburger, fries, and a drink at McDonald's could be had for under a dollar.

...snip

Is gas too expensive?:dunno

Seems like it is about the same as it always has been.

Two cheeseburgers, fries, medium coke and an apple pie was $.99 in 1972 ("gee... change back from my dollar..." remember that line?)

Gas still costs 3 candy bars per gallon. I think you called it right, Tom.

(FWIW, gas is so expensive in Canada and Europe/ROW due to *taxes* added by government to fund their social welfare benefits. Also, today's prices are due more to the lack of refinery capacity (http://www.cantonrep.com/index.php?ID=354523) here in the US than it is to the prices of a barrel of oil. The oil companies are making us pay to buy new refineries *if* they can actually get permits to build them.)

Ian

[MCMXCIVRS]

Those prices are nothing, I have a bottle of a fine scottish beverage that comes in at around $3030 per gallon. Worth every penny too :thumb

Most of those comparrisons are hardly accurate since there is little chance of ever using an entire gallon of the product. Plus, much of the cost would be for the packaging, so the actual product itself is much less. When I have a need to purchase 25 gallons of one of those products as I would gas, I'll worry about the cost of it then too.

Perhaps this list is a diversion from the oil companies to justify the current cost of fuel.

[Stuff2C]

Those prices are nothing, I have a bottle of a fine scottish beverage that comes in at around $3030 per gallon. Worth every penny too :thumb .


Do you ever travel with a flask? And :D are you going to the RA rally...:buds

[OfficerImpersonator]

Also, today's prices are due more to the lack of refinery capacity (http://www.cantonrep.com/index.php?ID=354523) here in the US than it is to the prices of a barrel of oil. The oil companies are making us pay to buy new refineries *if* they can actually get permits to build them.)Ian

Urban legend.

If you don't think Exxon/Mobil or Chevron/Texaco etc. has the political and economic clout to get permits for the expansion of existing refineries or the construction of new refineries under the current political power structure running the Federal Government and state governments like that in Texas, you also likely buy the line that global warming is a joke and there are indeed WMDs in Iraq.

Not only is it cheaper for the oil companies to not invest in their refining capacity - they make MORE money by NOT expanding their refining capacity as it restricts supply and ratchets up the price - without them having to lift a finger except to put even larger numbers up on the sign at the gas station.

[OfficerImpersonator]

Sorry if my econ degree is working overtime today, but perhaps the reason the costs of all the other commodities have increased along with the price of gasoline is that gasoline is so critical to the production and transportation of these various commodities.

Does the bottled water come in a plastic bottle? Guess what the plastic bottle is made of - that's right - petroleum. Do trucks transport those bottles around the country? What do those trucks use for fuel?

Oil is used in the production of virtually every consumer good sold today - whether it's an ingredient used in producing the plastic or it's used to transport the finished product to market.

Naturally, as the price of oil increases, the prices of goods dependent upon liquid hydrocarbons also increases - not in parallel with the increasing price of oil but directly as a result of the increasing cost of oil.

Did you know that when the Federal Government calculates inflation, it exempts fuel prices from the matrix? Ever wonder why that is the case? I have my suspicions as to why fuel prices aren't factored into the inflation calculation...

[Belquar]

Speaking of fuel costs.


We ordered some food from a restaurant while I was at work this weekend. They required that we order a minimum of 30 bucks for it to be worth it to deliver the food. We are a whopping 3.9 miles from the business.

[OfficerImpersonator]

Speaking of fuel costs.


We ordered some food from a restaurant while I was at work this weekend. They required that we order a minimum of 30 bucks for it to be worth it to deliver the food. We are a whopping 3.9 miles from the business.

I can't possibly imagine how the pizza delivery folks are making any money driving pies around.

[osbornk]

i usually take the sink water at subway, but then again i drink the water in mexico, spain and all those other places i shouldn't. i just consider it making myself microbe resistant:laugh

I would gladly have taken the sink water (tap water) if I had been given the opportunity. How can public tap water be unsanitary? I've drank out of mountain streams many times. I just make sure it is cool, clear and no people live close above where I am.

[2BikeMike]

I would gladly have taken the sink water (tap water) if I had been given the opportunity. How can public tap water be unsanitary? I've drank out of mountain streams many times. I just make sure it is cool, clear and no people live close above where I am.

I really do think that gas prices have really gotten out of hand, but I do understand the laws of supply and demand. I have often wondered how much longer the oil reserves will hold out given the present consumption rate. Can you imagine the motorcycles, cars and trucks sitting on the sides of the road?:cry But, the reason I quoted you was to say this, there was a time years ago that I would drink out of a creek and not have the slightest concern about it. :drink

[charleshickman]

I occasionally buy bottled water. Where else can you get a reasonably high quality canteen for $1.39.

Mountain streams have been contaminated by giardia for as long as animals have used the mountains as the loo.

The world is consuming every ounce of petroleum pumped and demand continues to rise with the oil prices. Our expensive german toys are reasonably fuel efficient. But some of use still do our commuting in a Titan, Armada or Sequoia. (The japanese have figured out our preference in vehicles and named their fuel guzzling behemoths accordingly) If we, as a nation, would reduce our consumption by just a little, people who claim to know say prices would come down.

Laser printers are alot cheaper per page than ink jet.

[RandyB]

Sorry if my econ degree is working overtime today, but perhaps the reason the costs of all the other commodities have increased along with the price of gasoline is that gasoline is so critical to the production and transportation of these various commodities.

Did you know that when the Federal Government calculates inflation, it exempts fuel prices from the matrix? Ever wonder why that is the case? I have my suspicions as to why fuel prices aren't factored into the inflation calculation...

Wait until diesel futures expire. Your grocery bill will make you nostalgic for your gas bill. That produce isn't grown up the road from you anymore....

I don't wonder why they exempt fuel from inflation calculations. People would figure out gas costs X times as much as it did years ago and their wages have not gone up X amount. Factor in consumer debt and the average family (Whatever that is.) is going to be in pain at the pump. Whip out the credit card, make min payments, whip out the card.... I do wonder why we pay $70ish/bbl for oil that costs $1.62/bbl loaded on the tanker in the gulf....

It's gonna be ugly.

[FatChance]

Urban legend.

If you don't think Exxon/Mobil or Chevron/Texaco etc. has the political and economic clout to get permits for the expansion of existing refineries or the construction of new refineries under the current political power structure running the Federal Government and state governments like that in Texas, you also likely buy the line that global warming is a joke and there are indeed WMDs in Iraq.
So, they are not building anymore refineries in California and Washington state only because the oil companies want to limit the amount of gas they can sell you and make money from and it has NOTHING to do with the stringent, over-the-top environmental regulations that would make the construction of a new refinery totally impossible. From someone in NIMBY Seattle, that is laughable. There are none so blind as those who will not see.

[OfficerImpersonator]

So, they are not building anymore refineries in California and Washington state only because the oil companies want to limit the amount of gas they can sell you and make money from and it has NOTHING to do with the stringent, over-the-top environmental regulations that would make the construction of a new refinery totally impossible. From someone in NIMBY Seattle, that is laughable. There are none so blind as those who will not see.

Setting aside whether or not oil companies could obtain approval to expand existing refineries at March Point and Cherry Point, we have a little thing called a limit on the amount of oil that can be shipped from Prudhoe Bay through the Trans-Alaska Pipeline to Valdez, and then on to Cherry Point and March Point via tanker ship for refining.

North Slope production is in a steady decline, so there is no additional raw product to refine at these refineries - regardless of whether or not local and state agencies would approve construction projects.

When it comes to enforcing environmental regulations in the courthouse, almost all environmental lawsuits around here are generated by the various tribes seeking to reduce potential damage to salmon fishing grounds. I don't have much influence over the tribal governments, so I can't worry about what they do.

You're also presuming that the cost of gasoline at the pump is solely determined by what happens in Washington State. Could not refineries expand existing facilities and construct new refineries in oil industry friendly states like Texas and Louisiana? The vast majority of the petroleum consumed in the United States enters the U.S. market via the Gulf Coast and is refined along the Gulf Coast. Expand capacity there and the national price will decrease - yet as I said earlier, it costs the oil companies nothing to do nothing and have the laws of supply and demand ratchet up the price instead of investing those record profits into expanding refining capacity and thus managing the rate of increase of the price of a gallon of gasoline.

[OfficerImpersonator]

...it has NOTHING to do with the stringent, over-the-top environmental regulations that would make the construction of a new refinery totally impossible. From someone in NIMBY Seattle, that is laughable. There are none so blind as those who will not see.

What would you define as an "over-the-top environmental regulation"?

We have laws on the books designed to protect our air and water quality. Who needs clean air and water, right? We have a federal law that restricts the sizes of the tankers that can enter Puget Sound because back in the early 1980s Sen. Warren Magnuson had the foresight to restrict supertankers from Puget Sound in an effort to prevent an "Exxon Valdez-type" spill in Puget Sound - 20 years before we learned the hard way just what an "Exxon Valdez-type" spill can do to an ecosystem.

I cordially invite you to submit your list of "over the top" environmental regulations as they pertain to the Puget Sound petroleum refining industry.

[FatChance]

S
You're also presuming that the cost of gasoline at the pump is solely determined by what happens in Washington State. Could not refineries expand existing facilities and construct new refineries in oil industry friendly states like Texas and Louisiana? The vast majority of the petroleum consumed in the United States enters the U.S. market via the Gulf Coast and is refined along the Gulf Coast. Expand capacity there and the national price will decrease - yet as I said earlier, it costs the oil companies nothing to do nothing and have the laws of supply and demand ratchet up the price instead of investing those record profits into expanding refining capacity and thus managing the rate of increase of the price of a gallon of gasoline.

I am obviously not making that presumption. I was using the example of the three states on the west coast who probably have more gas consumption combined than any other three contiguous states in addition to having ignored proven reserves and a long history of closing down oil fields and refineries and not allowing the possibility of increasing the gasoline refining and distribution infrastructure required by their burgeoning population.

There are two problems with your suggestions. First, one of the big problems is the state and local requirements for differing "boutique" gasoline blends. Currently, there are dozens of different blends for different areas of the country because everyone has their own ideas about what they need locally. This is the worst way to increase efficiency of our dwindling refinery capacity. The existing refineries are currently booked solid in being able to produce all of these different blends for their existing markets as it is and cannot do them all at once. This is why we have regional and temporal differences in supplies and prices. Were some refinery in some other part of the country to take on the new responsibility of additional refinery capacity to provide your (or some other place's) special gas blends, that would only make more negative regional supply and distribution changes for everyone else. Also, how much more would you be willing to pay to truck that specially blended gas from the gulf coast to Seattle? And if price is just the issue, why not have Washington's high taxes lowered?

The bigger issue is the NYMBYism I referred to. Why should some other place take on the expense, added up-front and long range costs and potential environmental issues of their own to build refineries while west coast states are doing their best to shut down the few they still have or should build for future capacity? Why are you opposed to building new and better refineries on the west coast where so much of the consumption is located? Why is your environment more important than some other place like the gulf coast? Why not build more refineries (and drill for more oil) on the west coast? It is cheaper to ship extra bulk crude there than to truck refined "boutique" gas blends to someplace that doesn't want to deal with the real costs and consequences of their own energy uses!

[FatChance]

What would you define as an "over-the-top environmental regulation"?

We have laws on the books designed to protect our air and water quality. Who needs clean air and water, right? We have a federal law that restricts the sizes of the tankers that can enter Puget Sound because back in the early 1980s Sen. Warren Magnuson had the foresight to restrict supertankers from Puget Sound in an effort to prevent an "Exxon Valdez-type" spill in Puget Sound - 20 years before we learned the hard way just what an "Exxon Valdez-type" spill can do to an ecosystem.
Don't be such an ignorant putz. Other places have the refineries (and delivery infrastructures) to produce the petroleum products that you use and seem to think are your birthright. Why is it OK for you to consume something produced somewhere else that you think should not be produced where you live? Why do you think you are so special?

[OfficerImpersonator]

Don't be such an ignorant putz. Other places have the refineries (and delivery infrastructures) to produce the petroleum products that you use and seem to think are your birthright. Why is it OK for you to consume something produced somewhere else that you think should not be produced where you live? Why do you think you are so special?

Not sure why the name calling was required in what had heretofore been a civilized discussion, but I'll soldier on nonetheless.

Gasoline purchased in Western Washington and North West Oregon is refined at one of four refineries in Washington State - two on "March Point", just outside of Anacortes, and two at "Cherry Point", just outside of Ferndale. Those four refineries produce all the fuels consumed in that geographic area. Eastern Washington and Eastern Oregon gets it's fuels from refineries in Utah, and Southern Oregon gets its fuels from refineries in the California Bay Area.

All fuels refined for the Western Washington/North-Western Oregon market is refined from Prudhoe Bay crude oil that has traveled through the TAPS (Trans-Alaska Pipeline System) from Alaska's North Slope to Valdez, where it is loaded onto tanker ships and transported to West Coast refineries. It's a completely closed system, and thus pricing could be completely independent of the domestically produced crude in Texas and the stuff imported from Mexico, Venezuela and the Mid-East that's refined along the Gulf Coast - and provides the supply for vast majority of the U.S. petroleum fuels market.

But the prices are connected, so when Hugo Chavez or the Mid-East Sheiks or the traders at the Chicago Mercantile Exchange decide to raise the prices of crude, the price at my pump goes up even though the State of Alaska isn't charging the oil companies any more for Alaskan crude. So, if West Coast prices are wedded to the prices in the rest of the country, what happens on the Gulf Coast has the effect of setting the national price. The "gold standard" of the petroleum market is "Texas Light Sweet Crude" oil. Guess where that comes from, and where it's refined? Thus, if we expand capacity at Gulf Coast refineries and produce more product, prices will go down nationally, regardless of whether or not we expand production here on the West Coast.

We refine all we need to meet our needs here on the West Coast (except when the oil companies collude and shut down their refineries for "maintenance" - all at the same time). As much as we'd like to be able to pay the oil companies what it costs them to extract, transport, refine and transport Alaskan crude plus a small profit, we're tied to the prices set by the national petroleum market even though we're completely independent of it from a supply chain perspective.

As for responding to your personal attack, I ride a motorcycle as it's an efficient way to get around. My four gallons a week, burned at 50 mpg, seems like a pretty minimal intrusion into the global petroleum market.

[Bob_M]

Only George Bush could go to war for oil and not get any.
:banghead

[mrich12000]

-----
SIMPLE AND POSSIBLE Please Read
War On Gas

This was originally sent by a retired Coca Cola executive. It came from one of his engineer buddies who retired from Halliburton, Ontario. It's worthy of our consideration. Join the resistance! I hear we are going to hit close to $1.50 a litre by summer and it might possibly go higher! If you want gasoline prices to come down, we need to take some intelligent, united action. Phillip Hollsworth offered this good idea:

This makes MUCH MORE SENSE than the "don't buy gas on a certain day" campaign that was going around earlier! The oil companies just laughed at that because they knew we wouldn't continue to "hurt" ourselves by refusing to buy gas. It was more of an inconvenience to us than it was a problem for them. BUT, whoever thought of this idea, has come up with a plan that can really work. Please read on and join with us! By now you're probably thinking gasoline priced at about $.79/litre is super cheap. Me too! It is currently $1.10 for regular unleaded in my town.
Now that the oil companies and the OPEC nations have conditioned us to think that the cost of a litre of gas is CHEAP at $.79 - $.99, we need to take aggressive action to teach them that BUYERS control the marketplace ..... not the sellers. With the price of gasoline going up more each day, we consumers need to take action. The only way we are going to see the price of gas come down is if we hit someone in the pocketbook by not purchasing their gas! And, we can do that WITHOUT hurting ourselves. How? Since we all rely on our cars, we can't just stop buying gas. But we CAN have an impact on gas prices if we all act together to force a price war.

Here's the idea:

Starting June 1 of 2007 DON'T purchase ANY gasoline from the biggest Company in Canada, Petro Canada at all! If they are not selling any gas, they would be very quickly inclined to reduce their prices. If they reduce their prices, the other companies will have to follow suit.

Think about it: Petro Canada has 1500 retail locations Canada-wide and the entire country consumes 68 million gallons a day. Yes, per day. And Petro Canada is Canada's largest gasoline retailer, so, doesn't it make sense that the consumer can bring this giant to its knees and force them to lower their prices?

But to have an impact, we need to reach literally millions of Petro Canada gas buyers. It's really simple to do! Now, don't wimp out at this point .... keep reading and I'll explain how simple it is to reach millions of people.

I am sending this note to 11 people. If each of us sends it to at least ten more (30 x 10 = 300) ... and those 300 send it to at least ten more (300 x 10 = 3,000) ... and so on, by the time the message reaches the sixth group of people, we will have reached over THREE MILLION consumers. If those three million pass it on to ten friends each, then 30 million people!! That's the entire population of Canada.

Again, all you have to do is send this to 10 people. That's all. (You don't understand how we can reach 30 million and all you need to do is send this to 10 people .... or more)

How long would all that take? If each of us sends this e-mail out to ten more people within one day of receipt, all 30 MILLION people could conceivably see this within the next 8 days!!!

Acting together we can make a difference. If this makes sense to you, please pass this message on . I suggest that we not buy from Petro Canada UNTIL THEY LOWER THEIR PRICES TO A REASONABLE PRICE AND KEEP THEM DOWN.

[2BikeMike]

Only George Bush could go to war for oil and not get any.
:banghead

Is this a joke?

[RandyB]

Only George Bush could go to war for oil and not get any.
:banghead

If this was truly about oil, we would have invaded Saudi Arabia and/or Venezuela. It's about the one place in the mid-East where democracy has a chance. From there, it will begin to destabilize the surrounding governments. It's working: Saudi Arabia has had local elections and Egypt had the first multi-party presidential ticket in 29 years. Not much, but it's a start and certainly easier than other invasions.

If you want to call me a Bush stooge, do it via PM. No sense tying up bandwidth. And you might be surprised at my political leanings.

[Visian]

If this was truly about oil, we would have invaded Saudi Arabia and/or Venezuela. It's about the one place in the mid-East where democracy has a chance. From there, it will begin to destabilize the surrounding governments. It's working: Saudi Arabia has had local elections and Egypt had the first multi-party presidential ticket in 29 years. Not much, but it's a start and certainly easier than other invasions.


this is truly about oil... oil that will be pumped 15-25 years from now... and the oil is in the Central Asian Republics. at this point we're basically covering the pipleline routes needed to get the oil to market. securing those countries' ability to market their resources freely, with profits going to their societies (vs. building palaces and torturing/murdering the citizenship) could be next.

a good book on the subject is The New Great Game (http://www.newgreatgame.com/).

if we manage to create some form of democratic environment in these countries, including equal rights for women and religious pluralism... that would be great, but that runs counter to 1,000+ years of history. it *could* happen, though... with enough patience and support. and commitment.

ian

[Visian]

...putz.


/moderation mode on...

let's not be into name-calling, please. thanks.

/moderation mode off

ian

[RandyB]

this is truly about oil... oil that will be pumped 15-25 years from now... and the oil is in the Central Asian Republics. at this point we're basically covering the pipleline routes needed to get the oil to market. securing those countries' ability to market their resources freely, with profits going to their societies (vs. building palaces and torturing/murdering the citizenship) could be next.

a good book on the subject is The New Great Game (http://www.newgreatgame.com/).

That's one of the reasons for Afghanistan: To secure the Russians a warm water port. Ever wonder why they went in there in the late '70s? It's not just oil, it's natural gas, timber and cheap labor. Not to mention an offset to the Chinese.... I don't disagree that oil is an element, since this country's infrastructure was built on cheap petroleum.

if we manage to create some form of democratic environment in these countries, including equal rights for women and religious pluralism... that would be great, but that runs counter to 1,000+ years of history. it *could* happen, though... with enough patience and support. and commitment.
ian

Keep in mind it took a revolution to start our country, 13 years to ratify a constitution (After 10 Amendments) and what some call a Civil War to settle the question of secession. Then it took another 70 years to get women the right to vote and 70 years after that to end Jim Crow, etc. And all that from a non-pluralistic, single language, one dominant religion, rule of consistent law and near universal belief in the equality of man before God kind of country. It's gonna be a long haul in a part of the world with three religions, 12 sects, 17 languages, too many tribes to count and recently empowered women. Not to mention any knothead with a Koran and an audience can change the law (fatwa) any way he sees fit.

The good news is most insurgencies only last 10 years and generally end in favor of the government. The bad news is we're only half-way and the worse news is they chose sharia (Islamic law, see above comment on fatwas) as the basis for their government. We shall see.

Ian, check your PM. I need to send you something.

[HFbmw]

construction of homes in the past 20 years have tripled. Motorized transportations has also gone up!

I often think what kind of prices gas should be IF it was tied to the price of an SUV versus the pickup I drove in the 80's.

gas cheap?

need an overdrive tranny on these bikes!

tim lindstrom
91 k100lt

[Visian]

Keep in mind it took a revolution to start our country, 13 years to ratify a constitution (After 10 Amendments) and what some call a Civil War to settle the question of secession. Then it took another 70 years to get women the right to vote and 70 years after that to end Jim Crow, etc. And all that from a non-pluralistic, single language, one dominant religion, rule of consistent law and near universal belief in the equality of man before God kind of country. It's gonna be a long haul in a part of the world with three religions, 12 sects, 17 languages, too many tribes to count and recently empowered women. Not to mention any knothead with a Koran and an audience can change the law (fatwa) any way he sees fit.


Yeah, but they didn't have cellphones, tvs, pcs or the internet back then.

remember the SNL skit from way back when... "What if... Jesus had a website and his Apostles had net-enabled phones?" :p

[mrich12000]

:p Not sure why the name calling was required in what had heretofore been a civilized discussion, but I'll soldier on nonetheless.

Gasoline purchased in Western Washington and North West Oregon is refined at one of four refineries in Washington State - two on "March Point", just outside of Anacortes, and two at "Cherry Point", just outside of Ferndale. Those four refineries produce all the fuels consumed in that geographic area. Eastern Washington and Eastern Oregon gets it's fuels from refineries in Utah, and Southern Oregon gets its fuels from refineries in the California Bay Area.

All fuels refined for the Western Washington/North-Western Oregon market is refined from Prudhoe Bay crude oil that has traveled through the TAPS (Trans-Alaska Pipeline System) from Alaska's North Slope to Valdez, where it is loaded onto tanker ships and transported to West Coast refineries. It's a completely closed system, and thus pricing could be completely independent of the domestically produced crude in Texas and the stuff imported from Mexico, Venezuela and the Mid-East that's refined along the Gulf Coast - and provides the supply for vast majority of the U.S. petroleum fuels market.

But the prices are connected, so when Hugo Chavez or the Mid-East Sheiks or the traders at the Chicago Mercantile Exchange decide to raise the prices of crude, the price at my pump goes up even though the State of Alaska isn't charging the oil companies any more for Alaskan crude. So, if West Coast prices are wedded to the prices in the rest of the country, what happens on the Gulf Coast has the effect of setting the national price. The "gold standard" of the petroleum market is "Texas Light Sweet Crude" oil. Guess where that comes from, and where it's refined? Thus, if we expand capacity at Gulf Coast refineries and produce more product, prices will go down nationally, regardless of whether or not we expand production here on the West Coast.

We refine all we need to meet our needs here on the West Coast (except when the oil companies collude and shut down their refineries for "maintenance" - all at the same time). As much as we'd like to be able to pay the oil companies what it costs them to extract, transport, refine and transport Alaskan crude plus a small profit, we're tied to the prices set by the national petroleum market even though we're completely independent of it from a supply chain perspective.

As for responding to your personal attack, I ride a motorcycle as it's an efficient way to get around. My four gallons a week, burned at 50 mpg, seems like a pretty minimal intrusion into the global petroleum market.



:blah only wish someone in power could shake the oil companies and thier cronies with another anti-trust shake up. would get it together and not be so GREEDY

And lets be Civil :usa :lurk

[OfficerImpersonator]

this is truly about oil... oil that will be pumped 15-25 years from now... and the oil is in the Central Asian Republics. at this point we're basically covering the pipleline routes needed to get the oil to market. securing those countries' ability to market their resources freely, with profits going to their societies (vs. building palaces and torturing/murdering the citizenship) could be next.

a good book on the subject is The New Great Game (http://www.newgreatgame.com/).

if we manage to create some form of democratic environment in these countries, including equal rights for women and religious pluralism... that would be great, but that runs counter to 1,000+ years of history. it *could* happen, though... with enough patience and support. and commitment.

ian

It's all about oil. Of course it is. If it were about introducing democracy into repressive environments with dictatorial leaders, we'd have our military spread all over Africa, in a couple of South American countries, and we would have invaded China years ago. We'd currently be considering whether or not to invade Russia and institute democracy once again. But since we're not in these places, we can only reach one conclusion as to why we occupy the Mid-East.

The only reason we're in the Mid-East is to ensure the existing power structure running Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, the UAE, etc. remains in power. The greatest fear of the entrenched global oil industry is that all the Mid-East nations "go fundamentalist" and shut us off from their oil. That would create a huge tear in our economy that would require us to develop new technologies that would render the oil industry irrelevant.

You'll hear lobbyists for the oil and coal industries tell us that we can't possibly end our use of oil as it's so embedded in our economy. They'll tell you that since we get 50% of our electricity from coal, we can't possibly quit using coal. But since it's the coal industry that provides their paychecks, what do you expect them to say?

The fact is that we can innovate our way out of our reliance on hydrocarbons. We can generate electricity with non-polluting sources such as solar, wind, tidal, geothermal and yes - even nuclear. I'm as green of an environmentalist as you'll ever find, yet I think nuclear power has a huge role to play in our future - as long as we can figure out how to dispose of the waste and eliminate the risk of a melt down. I refuse to say the United States is incapable of figuring out a way to fix this problem, and I refuse to say the United States is permanently addicted to burning oil to power our economy. We are the same United States that won World War II in less time than we've spent occupying Iraq. We are the same United States that figured out how to send humans to the moon and return them safely back to earth. I'm pretty sure our scientists, engineers and other thinkers can figure out technologies to end our reliance on foreign oil as well.

If we eliminate the control entrenched corporate interests have over our governments, we can enact policies that deter investment in oil and coal technologies and encourage investment in other non or less-polluting and renewable options.

It's so simple - all we need to do is stop electing oil industry executives (and their sympathizers) to elective office, and demand that our representatives pursue investment and encourage the development of alternatives.

[R80RTJohnny]

Darn capitalism...

They have the resource we have the need.

Wanna play gotta pay!

[mrich12000]

:dunno:bottle :laugh :laugh