Harleys and veterans

[OfficerImpersonator]

A couple of items recently in the news got me thinking - what's the connection between Harleys and veterans?

First, one of the local newspapers runs an AP wire story about a funeral home in Long Island that just acquired a Harley hearse.

The story has this quote from the funeral home operator:

For $795, a driver will take the dearly departed from the funeral home to the house of worship, then on to the cemetery - compared to $475 to $575 for a lift in a traditional hearse, they said.

Moloney said his family hoped to capitalize on a high concentration of military veterans and bike fanatics on Long Island.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1120ap_odd_hog_heaven.html

Then, I see the coverage of the "Operation Rolling Thunder" guys riding into Washington, D.C. to hang out at the Vietnam Memorial and have their photo op with the Commander in Chief. All Harleys, all with after market exhaust.

Are Harley guys more patriotic than everyone else? If you don't ride a Harley, do you hate America and Veterans? How did Harley riders get a monopoly on patriotism? Do we dare remind them that upwards of 80% of every Harley is "Hecho en Mexico"?

I do know that the local volunteer M/C rider honor guard isn't a Harley-only club. It's 99% Harleys, but the leaders do invite riders of all brands to join them.

I'm not meaning to be flip - I'm just curious as to how Harley riders are the only riders qualified to wrap themselves in the flag and pass themselves off as patriotic supporters of the USA and Veterans...

[henzilla]

It's just a bike...are we going down this road again?...whatever choice a veteran makes...he darn sure earned it...The Patriot Guard also is HD heavy...so what? There are just more Harleys in this world due to marketing and"'tradition"as has been discussed in this forum until that horse disentegrated from being beat so dang much.
I bet in that group, as in any , you will see other brands... Some bonehead wants to make a marketing ploy with a Harley Hearse...so what? Would you take offense if he was towing it with a K75? :dunno

Go Ride!:dance I am:usa

[OfficerImpersonator]

Hey - calm down - I'm just bored at work and wondering why Harley has cornered the market on patriotism.

I was disgusted to see all the Harley riders entering Washington, D.C. sans helmets and protective gear and treated like heroes for disturbing the peace. They ride straight onto the South Lawn of the White House like they're heroes of some sort. Run a criminal background check on these guys and I bet most of them have rap sheets, yet they're considered patriotic heroes.

I was simply wondering if there was some history behind Harleys and flag waving. That's all. I'm not criticizing their patriotism - I'm curious as to why only Harleys are shown participating - and why the funeral home operator says there is a connection between veterans and Harleys. I presume there are some veterans reading this thread who might have some insight - that's all.

I've observed a phenomenon, and my curiosity is seeking out additional information as I attempt to understand this link.

[RandyB]

Marketing.

As long as they're riding something. Best therapy money can buy.

[Belquar]

Hey - calm down - I'm just bored at work and wondering why Harley has cornered the market on patriotism.

I was disgusted to see all the Harley riders entering Washington, D.C. sans helmets and protective gear and treated like heroes for disturbing the peace. They ride straight onto the South Lawn of the White House like they're heroes of some sort. Run a criminal background check on these guys and I bet most of them have rap sheets, yet they're considered patriotic heroes.

.



WOW. WOW. WOW.

Talk about lumping people together. Tens of thousands of people turn out for Rolling thunder. Yeah the majority of bikes are harleys but the majority of bikes in America are Harleys. It is bound to be that way at Rolling Thunder. Are they the most patriotic....well some of them definitely are. Did you ride cross country to the parade? Guess not. Are you patriotic in a different way? Maybe. Are they wrong for doing what they do? NO WAY.

It is a memorial for the fallen soilders and veterans who served to allow you to stereotype them so freely. The majority of the people in the DC area love the parade. Thousands turn out to watch it. They line the streets. If you haven't experienced it....they you have no place to judge it. It is awesome.

I hate loud pipes but there is something pretty magnificent about watching a tribute to freedom such as rolling thunder. Disturbing the peace??? Who. They ride from the Pentagon downtown around the national mall and that is it. It isn't like they parade up and down the neighborhood streets. There are no residents anywhere nearby except maybe on the Crystal City side in condos, but those towers are so sound resistant that I doubt it is a big deal and most of them probably enjoy the birds eye view. I used to live in Crystal City. Right across the street from the Airport. Never heard a plane take off with the windows and doors closed.

Rap sheets? That comment was just ignorant. Even if they do have a rap sheet...they have obviously served their time and paid their debt to society if they can afford a harley. Put gas in it. Farkle it up. Etc. There are dirtbags in every group. Beemers have their share too. I did registration at the rally on opening day last year in VT. I had so many people that were completely tanked when they rolled in. It was amazing cause it was between 8 am and noon. At the rally in Lima, OH....I saw as many people riding without a helmet and gear as I saw with it. OH being a no helmet law state, some folks crossed the state line and took it off. Should we start a thread about how disgusting they were.

Harley made in America. Doesn't specify which America.

The real question here is....WHY DO YOU CARE? Did they hurt you? Was the noise too loud in Seattle? Why all the hate? Live and let live bro.

oh....and BMW's are made in Germany....wasn't to long ago that Germany had cornered the market on Tyranny. Should we all wrap ourselves in Swastikas and ride our beemers around?

[ltljohn]

I think that one of the reasons that you see so many vets riding HD is the camaradarie that goes with it.
There is a certain bond that develops in the military that is difficult to explain to someone that has not been in the military.
The HD brotherhood among Vets is an extension of this.

Fellow Vets on this forum what say you?

[RandyB]

Run a criminal background check on these guys and I bet most of them have rap sheets, yet they're considered patriotic heroes.

I was simply wondering if there was some history behind Harleys and flag waving. That's all. I'm not criticizing their patriotism - I'm curious as to why only Harleys are shown participating - and why the funeral home operator says there is a connection between veterans and Harleys. I presume there are some veterans reading this thread who might have some insight - that's all.

Check your PM.

[knary]

Harley dominates the motorcycle market in the U.S.
Harley has successfully marketed themselves as the maker of the quintessential American bike.
Harley has a long history with the U.S. military, a history which gave us, among other things, a good bit of their dominance of the american market and firm presence in our culture.
Harley has a long list of very large and very active clubs.


In the U.S. this year, Harley will sell nearly 30 bikes for every single BMW sold. They sell roughly half of all street bikes sold in this country. That number alone is more than three times the number of bikes BMW sells world wide.

[Prof. Robert]

WOW. WOW. WOW.

Talk about lumping people together. Tens of thousands of people turn out for Rolling thunder. Yeah the majority of bikes are harleys but the majority of bikes in America are Harleys. It is bound to be that way at Rolling Thunder. Are they the most patriotic....well some of them definitely are. Did you ride cross country to the parade? Guess not. Are you patriotic in a different way? Maybe. Are they wrong for doing what they do? NO WAY.

It is a memorial for the fallen soilders and veterans who served to allow you to stereotype them so freely. The majority of the people in the DC area love the parade. Thousands turn out to watch it. They line the streets. If you haven't experienced it....they you have no place to judge it. It is awesome.

I hate loud pipes but there is something pretty magnificent about watching a tribute to freedom such as rolling thunder. Disturbing the peace??? Who. They ride from the Pentagon downtown around the national mall and that is it. It isn't like they parade up and down the neighborhood streets. There are no residents anywhere nearby except maybe on the Crystal City side in condos, but those towers are so sound resistant that I doubt it is a big deal and most of them probably enjoy the birds eye view. I used to live in Crystal City. Right across the street from the Airport. Never heard a plane take off with the windows and doors closed.

Rap sheets? That comment was just ignorant. Even if they do have a rap sheet...they have obviously served their time and paid their debt to society if they can afford a harley. Put gas in it. Farkle it up. Etc. There are dirtbags in every group. Beemers have their share too. I did registration at the rally on opening day last year in VT. I had so many people that were completely tanked when they rolled in. It was amazing cause it was between 8 am and noon. At the rally in Lima, OH....I saw as many people riding without a helmet and gear as I saw with it. OH being a no helmet law state, some folks crossed the state line and took it off. Should we start a thread about how disgusting they were.

Harley made in America. Doesn't specify which America.

The real question here is....WHY DO YOU CARE? Did they hurt you? Was the noise too loud in Seattle? Why all the hate? Live and let live bro.

oh....and BMW's are made in Germany....wasn't to long ago that Germany had cornered the market on Tyranny. Should we all wrap ourselves in Swastikas and ride our beemers around?

Very well put. :thumb
I'm a Vietnam Vet who currently just happens to ride a BMW rather than a Harley; nevertheless, I find the stereotyped Vet-Harley rider-exconvict style ad hominen attacks offensive and uncalled for.

dvandkq, shame on you.

Robert

[raygun]

A couple of items recently in the news got me thinking - what's the connection between Harleys and veterans?

First, one of the local newspapers runs an AP wire story about a funeral home in Long Island that just acquired a Harley hearse.

The story has this quote from the funeral home operator:


http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1120ap_odd_hog_heaven.html

Then, I see the coverage of the "Operation Rolling Thunder" guys riding into Washington, D.C. to hang out at the Vietnam Memorial and have their photo op with the Commander in Chief. All Harleys, all with after market exhaust.

Are Harley guys more patriotic than everyone else? If you don't ride a Harley, do you hate America and Veterans? How did Harley riders get a monopoly on patriotism? Do we dare remind them that upwards of 80% of every Harley is "Hecho en Mexico"?

I do know that the local volunteer M/C rider honor guard isn't a Harley-only club. It's 99% Harleys, but the leaders do invite riders of all brands to join them.

I'm not meaning to be flip - I'm just curious as to how Harley riders are the only riders qualified to wrap themselves in the flag and pass themselves off as patriotic supporters of the USA and Veterans...

My guess would be that the Harley is an American Icon i.e. Ford and Chevy. I would'nt think a Veteran Patriot would want his last ride to be in a Toyota or BMW

[osbornk]

I think the connections is logical. After WW II, the veterans came home and bought American and British motorcycles. The did not buy German motorcycles because they were not readily available and they didn't want to buy as product from their recent enemy. This was before the the Asian market even made motorcycles. The failure of other American and European manufacturers left only Harley available and the early Asian motorcycles were very small with a "sissy" advertising campaign (You meet the nicest people on a Honda). Even after they got big and powerful, they were still manufactured by a WW II enemy.

Once the WW II veteran and Harley connection was made, it was followed by newer veterans who are very much traditionalists and very loyal.

I looked at a Harley Army Spec. motorcycle from WW II at the AMA museum in Ohio. It didn't look like a Harley at all but looked very much like a bike with a boxer motor we are all familiar with.

[Rapid_Roy]

I think the connections is logical. After WW II, the veterans came home and bought American and British motorcycles. The did not buy German motorcycles because they were not readily available and they didn't want to buy as product from their recent enemy. This was before the the Asian market even made motorcycles. The failure of other American and European manufacturers left only Harley available and the early Asian motorcycles were very small with a "sissy" advertising campaign (You meet the nicest people on a Honda). Even after they got big and powerful, they were still manufactured by a WW II enemy.

Once the WW II veteran and Harley connection was made, it was followed by newer veterans who are very much traditionalists and very loyal.

I looked at a Harley Army Spec. motorcycle from WW II at the AMA museum in Ohio. It didn't look like a Harley at all but looked very much like a bike with a boxer motor we are all familiar with.

My wife's Grandfather (R.I.P.) worked at Harley Davidson a long time ago. He asked me what kind of motorcycle I rode. I told him a BMW.
He told me they were nice bikes. He also told me they built a 1000 horizontally opposed, shaft driven motorcycles during the war. "They copied the BMW, but just couldn't get 'em to run like 'em.
I loved that man, especially after that.:thumb

A TV show I saw said that Military, especially Pilots came home with money in their hands and looking for "thrills." Motorcycles fit that outlet, and groups formed around their ex-military groups. That explains some of the names and Military Connections.

[henzilla]

The Austin Republic of Texas Rally R.O.T. rally is in town this weekend.

ALL bikes, all backgrounds descending on Central Texas for four days. My brother & son are coming and I am putting them on BMW's. They both ride,one a Kawasaki Drifter, one a Honda Cruiser but wanted to use one of mine...they both have been bitten by the BMW bug!

This morning, riders are rallying up south of Austin to ride escort with the moving of the mobile Vietnam Memorial Wall. They are riding maybe 30 miles on IH-35 thru downtown Austin to a location just north, I believe a cemetery. The LEO's escorting are doing a rolling shutdown of the Interstate before noon today. This should be a sight and I am headed (on the R1150) to either ride it also or to at least watch.
The Patriot Guard is the largest organized group in this ride. Just saw a TV live shot from scene, they were interviewing a member of the Patriot Guard. He IS a Vietnam Veteran and looks like someones sweet grandfather and I would guess in his 60's...not a 1%'r as most stereotypical viewers see them. I would ride alongside him any day on any bike...I do not think he would be hatin' the other brand on his wheel. There were Wings and Harley's with :usa flying proudly from the pillion in the shot.

[Holly]

Sometimes the person on the side of the vets isn't a Harley stereotype at all. This is going the rounds in Canada.

WARNING: Despite the very Canadian "politely declined," the ending may offend. SENSITIVE TYPES SHOULD NOT READ FURTHER.

Here's a quote from a government employee who witnessed a recent
interaction between an elderly woman and an antiwar protester in a
Vancouver Skytrain station. There were protesters on the subway platform handing out pamphlets on the evils of Canada. I politely declined taking one.
An elderly woman was behind me getting off the escalator and a
young (20-ish) female protester offered her a pamphlet, which she
politely declined. The young protester put her hand on the old woman's shoulder as a gesture of friendship and in a very soft voice said, "Lady, don't you
care about the children of Iraq ?"
The old woman looked up at her and said, "Honey, my father died in
France during World War II, I lost my husband an RCMP officer in a
violent shootout in Alberta, and now a grandson in Afghanistan.
All three died so you could have the right to stand here and bad
mouth our country. If you touch me again, I'll stick this umbrella up
your ass and open it."

[dancogan]

Very well put. :thumb
I'm a Vietnam Vet who currently just happens to ride a BMW rather than a Harley; nevertheless, I find the stereotyped Vet-Harley rider-exconvict style ad hominen attacks offensive and uncalled for.

dvandkq, shame on you.

Robert

And I'll add another :thumb to the sentiment in this post!

[OfficerImpersonator]

Very well put. :thumb
I'm a Vietnam Vet who currently just happens to ride a BMW rather than a Harley; nevertheless, I find the stereotyped Vet-Harley rider-exconvict style ad hominen attacks offensive and uncalled for.

dvandkq, shame on you.

Robert

I apologize for my inelegant prose which, inadvertently, linked vets to crime. In no way did I intend that to make that link.

My guess is that while Rolling Thunder does indeed include a number of veterans, many of the riders are simply posers in their do-rags, leather vests, leather chaps and wife beaters showing off their thousands of dollars worth of body art.

Here in the Pacific Northwest, there is a trial underway in Federal Court against the leaders of a local M/C gang called "The Banditos". They are alleged to be behind a massive organization dealing in stolen bikes, stolen motorcycle parts, and meth. So, despite the best efforts of the "bad boy Harley" image consultants, there is a grain of truth to the stereotype. Are all the posers otherwise meek lawyers and accountants Monday through Friday? Perhaps.

Let me re-phrase my original post:

Why do only Harley riders get to play patriot games?

[Belquar]

I apologize for my inelegant prose which, inadvertently, linked vets to crime. In no way did I intend that to make that link.

My guess is that while Rolling Thunder does indeed include a number of veterans, many of the riders are simply posers in their do-rags, leather vests, leather chaps and wife beaters showing off their thousands of dollars worth of body art.

Here in the Pacific Northwest, there is a trial underway in Federal Court against the leaders of a local M/C gang called "The Banditos". They are alleged to be behind a massive organization dealing in stolen bikes, stolen motorcycle parts, and meth. So, despite the best efforts of the "bad boy Harley" image consultants, there is a grain of truth to the stereotype. Are all the posers otherwise meek lawyers and accountants Monday through Friday? Perhaps.

Let me re-phrase my original post:

Why do only Harley riders get to play patriot games?


They don't. If you wanted to you could show up and ride in Rolling Thunder also on you beemer. THere are several Beemers who go every year. They get lost in the sea, but they are there. If you want to do something on a local level, hook up with your local Patriot Gaurd and ride with them to honor soldiers coming home or for funerals.

[OfficerImpersonator]

They don't. If you wanted to you could show up and ride in Rolling Thunder also on you beemer. THere are several Beemers who go every year. They get lost in the sea, but they are there. If you want to do something on a local level, hook up with your local Patriot Gaurd and ride with them to honor soldiers coming home or for funerals.

Which I plan to do, as Ft. Lewis (about 45 min. south of Seattle) has just announced that due to the high numbers of casualties involving soldiers stationed at Ft. Lewis, the Army will no longer perform individual memorial services for soldiers KIA.

http://www.theolympian.com/news/story/120193.html

[Rapid_Roy]

They don't. If you wanted to you could show up and ride in Rolling Thunder also on you beemer. THere are several Beemers who go every year. They get lost in the sea, but they are there. If you want to do something on a local level, hook up with your local Patriot Gaurd and ride with them to honor soldiers coming home or for funerals.

I tried that. I wrecked my starter because I couldn't hear when my bike was running.
J/K

10 Beemers passing my house makes noise, even if it is less than 10 HD's.
I can't see Rolling Thunder stopping anyone who wanted to ride with them.

[dmr]

I have Rolling Thunder on my list when I retire as one of those things I must do. I am not a vet, but I certainly respect those who are. Why stereotype a honorable tribute with such a wide brush? The news stories I saw did not mention it was a HD affair only, but referred to it as 1000s of motorcycles. As a matter of fact, one of the video clips showed 2 bikes passing directly in front of the president, and the first one was a honda (valkyrie).

A reference to the attendees as past criminals is not only uncalled for, it's a direct slap in the face of any who are vets and choose to honor those who have fallen. "Shame on you" doesn't seem strong enough. Trolling for trouble is a pitiful hobby.

D Ross

[Rasbutan]

Just an observation that I've made:

A lot of the POW/MIA flags are on HDs. This may be one of the contributing factors to the dvandkq's curiousity. Very rarely do I ever see any other brand with a flag pole on the back. Without the very distinct black flag, no one would know if a particular rider supported the cause.

Again, just an observation.

YMMV

[henzilla]

[QUOTE=dvandkq;211045]I
Here in the Pacific Northwest, there is a trial underway in Federal Court against the leaders of a local M/C gang called "The Banditos". They are alleged to be behind a massive organization dealing in stolen bikes, stolen motorcycle parts, and meth. So, despite the best efforts of the "bad boy Harley" image consultants, there is a grain of truth to the stereotype. Are all the posers otherwise meek lawyers and accountants Monday through Friday? Perhaps.
QUOTE]

one rotten apple and the whole bucket is garbage?
The Banditos MC are some of the the 1%'s that give the other 99% of Harleyriders the bad image...fewer of them around compared to the 70's. When I lived in Houston in the 70's, they were told to not wear their colors while riding or the LEO's would pursue them. They were the Meth supplier to the masses, prior to any "gang"of any other type appeared. I read they were on the West Coast vying for power. I used to avoid riding my "new" Harley near their hangouts and alone afraid of losing it.:bolt

Most of the high profile lawyers and doctors in Houston do the weekend biker look and on Harleys...Even saw a US Senator from Dallas on one... so yes to that perception seeming true. I rode with a group of FAA Flight Controllers a few years ago...it was their release from a very stressful job at Bush Intercontinental Airport...and yes, they all had do rags...under their helmets!

[eddie]

1%'ers created the image 99% of Harley riders try to copy.

I'd say 20% maybe are real riders....maybe,but what do I know about it? :sick

[jwhite518]

My guess is that while Rolling Thunder does indeed include a number of veterans, many of the riders are simply posers in their do-rags, leather vests, leather chaps and wife beaters showing off their thousands of dollars worth of body art.


Wasn't there recently a thread on this board about a dumbass biker chick who says, "Real men ride Harleys." This post is just as dumbass as that statement. Do you really have to tear down the other guy to make yourself feel good? I'm getting tired of all the Harley bashing on the MOA forum.

[Belquar]

Just an observation that I've made:

A lot of the POW/MIA flags are on HDs. This may be one of the contributing factors to the dvandkq's curiousity. Very rarely do I ever see any other brand with a flag pole on the back. Without the very distinct black flag, no one would know if a particular rider supported the cause.

Again, just an observation.

YMMV

I have a flag pole bracket attached to the side of my GS for carrying a flag when I do PGR rides.

[eddie]

[QUOTE=jwhite518;211118] Do you really have to tear down the other guy to make yourself feel good?


I don't feel a damn bit better,I just don't like'em. OK?

We don't all see the world the same j.

I'll check this site in another month or two to get my dose of whine.:thumb

[rangepig]

...despite the best efforts of the "bad boy Harley" image consultants, there is a grain of truth to the stereotype...
I think the outlaw bikers picked Harley, not the other way around. You have to separate the choice of criminal behavior from the choice of motorcycle, clothing, etc. It's false logic to do otherwise.

I too am getting tired of brand bashing and tribal chest thumping. I ride with my neighbor who has a Honda VTX cruiser, and I'm talking with one of the guys at work who rides a Harley (every day, I might add, regardless of weather!) about doing a Saddlesore 1000 together this summer. Both wear half helmets and black leather. It's their choice and I could care less. One is a veteran and neither are criminals.

One more thing: I don't see how Harley=outlaw and Harley=mega patriotic are compatible. Isn't breaking the laws of a nation most unpatriotic??

[kbasa]

Back not so long ago, riding a Japanese or German bike (Italian bikes at that time an invisible splinter group) would regularly get you calls of "Buy American" and general scorn.

If you think the HD/flag interface is strong now, you'd be amazed at what it was 25 years ago.

[kbasa]

I'm getting tired of all the Harley bashing on the MOA forum.

I agree.

[soldemall]

Some of it likely relates to the Harley fellows wearing their "patriotism on their sleeves". Nothing wrong with it. Nothing wrong with fading into the background.

I did my time in the Army (68-69) and ride various different bikes, a BMW included. I am, however, not defined in my own mind by my status as a veteran.
Perhaps some are. Perhaps some feel guilty for not having served. Makes no difference to me how others see themselves. I can tell you though, that a veteran of any generation, any branch, has a common bond that is somehow recognized very soon after meeting. That's what counts for me.

[GSTom]

Thirty some years or so ago, there were many young men who had served their country in an "Honorable" fashion by joining (or being "selected" to serve in) the American war machine, and most spent from two to four years or so "defending our freedom", just as their fathers had done when called upon to serve in the "Big One" WW II (as Dobie Gillis' father often pointed out on that early sitcom).

Many of them, when they returned to "the world" of civilian life became disillusioned by the response they received from the American people- either total apathy towards the horrifying things they had been a party to, or even open hostility from the public whose lives had gone on as normal while they endured things that had been unimaginable to these young men just months before.

The responses of these young men to the shock of returning to a "normal" life, after having been involved in such an "abnormal" situation varied greatly. Some were able to integrate more or less seamlessly to the "American Way". Others were prone to anti-social behaviour and rebellion against the system that they felt had deluded them and robbed them of their previously held views of how things "ought to be".

Of those who were prone to the anti-social response, the outlaw biker lifestyle, along with its associated drug and alcohol abuse, had a definite appeal. This, of course was at a point in time prior to the popularization of Harley Davidsons, when it was still "radical" and "edgy" to ride a Hog, thumbing your nose at the "Man" and the "System". The Harley riding group of that era (even the non-outlaw element) was pretty close knit and shared in general the common experience of military service and/or interest in riding as a means of dealing with one's inner turmoil.

The point I am in a round-about way of trying to make is that when you see the grizzled grey beards riding on Hogs, flying the flag, wearing their green berets, with bumper stickers lamenting the fact that not all of their dead comrades have been accounted for more than 3 decades later............ cut them some slack and don't heap them in with the yuppies who have purchased a certain brand of bike because it is trendy amongst their peer group.... And... if they want to be noisey and obnoxious.... hey...they earned that right based on what they have been through.

I'm not a fan of patriotism or blind support of the government of the country in which you happen to live. I AM in favor of taking into consideration the background and history of people before passing judgement on their actions.

My $0.02 worth in this discussion

[PacWestGS]

Thirty some years or so ago, there were many young men who had served their country in an "Honorable" fashion by joining (or being "selected" to serve in) the American war machine, and most spent from two to four years or so "defending our freedom", just as their fathers had done when called upon to serve in the "Big One" WW II (as Dobie Gillis' father often pointed out on that early sitcom).

Many of them, when they returned to "the world" of civilian life became disillusioned by the response they received from the American people- either total apathy towards the horrifying things they had been a party to, or even open hostility from the public whose lives had gone on as normal while they endured things that had been unimaginable to these young men just months before.

The responses of these young men to the shock of returning to a "normal" life, after having been involved in such an "abnormal" situation varied greatly. Some were able to integrate more or less seamlessly to the "American Way". Others were prone to anti-social behaviour and rebellion against the system that they felt had deluded them and robbed them of their previously held views of how things "ought to be".

Of those who were prone to the anti-social response, the outlaw biker lifestyle, along with its associated drug and alcohol abuse, had a definite appeal. This, of course was at a point in time prior to the popularization of Harley Davidsons, when it was still "radical" and "edgy" to ride a Hog, thumbing your nose at the "Man" and the "System". The Harley riding group of that era (even the non-outlaw element) was pretty close knit and shared in general the common experience of military service and/or interest in riding as a means of dealing with one's inner turmoil.

The point I am in a round-about way of trying to make is that when you see the grizzled grey beards riding on Hogs, flying the flag, wearing their green berets, with bumper stickers lamenting the fact that not all of their dead comrades have been accounted for more than 3 decades later............ cut them some slack and don't heap them in with the yuppies who have purchased a certain brand of bike because it is trendy amongst their peer group.... And... if they want to be noisey and obnoxious.... hey...they earned that right based on what they have been through.

I'm not a fan of patriotism or blind support of the government of the country in which you happen to live. I AM in favor of taking into consideration the background and history of people before passing judgement on their actions.

My $0.02 worth in this discussion

Tom, I think you got your monies worth out of those $0.02. I'll see you and raise you a $1.00. :D

It's A-M-E-R-I-C-A-N !

It's about a Brotherhood of American comrades where patriotisim runs deep and the Colors don't run! (There are a lot of people who never had to sacrifice but want the image, and that too is an American sub-culture)

But, to go back farther it was post WWII when returning soldiers bought anything American that they found was something real in their life at the time. Much of that was G.I. or Government Issue and it saved their life once or twice.

A Harley-Davidson motorcycle

A Jeep

And a spirit of adventure to be free men...




Some things stick, some things develope their own reputation good or bad but they stick.

Anyone want some apple pie to go with this discussion? :buds

[eddie]

RIGHT ON GSTOM :thumb

[Bigrider]

HD does quite a bit to foster sales among the military that goes beyond mere marketing. They have a very interesting overseas sales program for the military where you can order one from Camp Victory, Iraq, for example, and pick it up in the US. One individual in my office saved approx $4,000 (mostly taxes) for his Fatboy. There are similar programs in Germany. They had the overseas sales program in Germany when I was there in the late 70s so they have been doing it for a long time. I should have bought the Factory Cafe model back then. I think this goes a little beyond marketing. Thumbs up to HD.

Dave H
San Antonio, TX

[FatChance]

I apologize for my inelegant prose which, inadvertently, linked vets to crime. In no way did I intend that to make that link.

My guess is that while Rolling Thunder does indeed include a number of veterans, many of the riders are simply posers in their do-rags, leather vests, leather chaps and wife beaters showing off their thousands of dollars worth of body art.

Here in the Pacific Northwest, there is a trial underway in Federal Court against the leaders of a local M/C gang called "The Banditos". They are alleged to be behind a massive organization dealing in stolen bikes, stolen motorcycle parts, and meth. So, despite the best efforts of the "bad boy Harley" image consultants, there is a grain of truth to the stereotype. Are all the posers otherwise meek lawyers and accountants Monday through Friday? Perhaps.

Let me re-phrase my original post:

Why do only Harley riders get to play patriot games?
You aplogize for "inelegant prose" and then come back with yet more condescending, ignorant crap?

[BlackHoof]

To GSTom, FatChance and others. Thanks for articulating what I felt when
I encountered the drivel espoused by dvandkq. If you have to pi** off vets,
don't do it on Memorial Day.

[Hodag]

this whole thing started with the WLA vs. R75

people would shoot at ya depending on which bike you were on...

[RandyB]

Brand New Harley
You might think I’m a banker, and on weekdays, it’s true
But underneath this poly-cotton blend is a skeleton tattoo
Which I got when I was drinking
And I’m showing off this weekend
On my brand new Harley-Davidson

I may work in an office and look respectable and clean
But you should see me dressed in leather on my American machine
You would swear that I’m blue-collar
On my 15-thousand dollar
Deluxe, brand new Harley-Davidson

Come Friday evening
I don’t shower, I don’t shave
And I put my little earring in
And it’s time to misbehave
Yes I will clean your teeth on Monday
Or put braces in your mouth
But don’t flash ‘em at me Sunday, boy
Or I just might knock them out

My psychologist, he told me that it’s important that I ride
So I recreate my warrior who is pent up nine to five
And it’s therapy for hours
On my fifteen-thousand dollar
Deluxe, brand new Harley-Davidson

I kick off my loafers
Put on my big black boots
And I swear and curse while I rehearse for
My nasty attitude
Yes I will do your taxes Tuesday
So you get some money back
But call me CPA on Saturday
And I’ll have to kick your ass

No I’m not in a costume, I’ll bet a junk bond I’m real
I am an archetypal man astride a stallion made of steel
I’m a rebel, I’m a gangster
I’m a whiskey-drinking prankster
On my brand new Harley-Davidson

http://petermayer.net/music/?id=4

This guy is good.

[Bullfrog]

GSTom has certainly provided an elegant and valid explanation/answer to the origins of this thread. As a retired Vietnam vet, I salute you.

Yesterday, about 1000 "Bikers" escorted the traveling Vietnam Memorial Wall from one small Texas town to another through Austin. Yep, the overwhelming majority were HD's (Some right nice lookin' bikes, too!). The Police escort was for the overwhelming majority, BMW's. (Hmmmm) There were of course other makes and styles: Cruisers, Naked, Touring, CrotchRockets and one lone adventure bike.
We all had a common goal, which was to honor those lost men and women of the Vietnam War.

Just take a ride anywhere in the US and you'll see more HD's than other bikes so it stands to reason that in events like this, there'd be more HD's! So...if there are more HD's there'd be more Veterans on HD's.

It was fun to do the escort and I had a good time swapping war stories with all them there other MOTORCYCLE riders while sporting all my pins and wearing my green beret and riding my MOTORCYCLE.

A bike is a bike and it usually beats the alternative!


Dave
US Army, Retired:usa

[henzilla]

Thanks BF!:clap Glad you got to ride with the escort group...Work got in the way at last minute or I would have enjoyed the ride with you.

And here's to the Vet's one more time:usa

[godzilla]

So if when I ride my K bike up to Indy this Sunday, along with my buddy on his RT and some other guys on Hondas and Kaws to join 4000 to 5000 other motorcyclists to raise money for Riley's Childrens Hospital, will we also be labelled as criminals because the majority of the attendees will ride Harley's? Should I not go? Should I forgo that ride around the Indy 500 Track because I shouldn't associate myself with meth dealers?

I gotta know!!

Wait a minute! The governor of Indiana rides a Harley and is a member of ABATE! How did we elect this guy? Who checked his rap sheet? He'll be there. I know! We'll get the Indiana State Police to arrest him! They'll be there with their Drill Team! No! No! They ride Harley's! Criminals everywhere!

Bob and Tom will be there. I guess they should be arrested on Felony Accessory for supporting a bunch of weekend thugs!

Hey! Anyone from IN in here planning on going to the Miracle Ride? Look for me on my white K100!

[godzilla]

Oh, and I might add that I work at a US Navy facility (our motto: Support The Warfighter!). I never served in the military, but I have a nephew in the Air Force.

Several of my co-workers and a couple of guys that work for me are Vietnam Vets. They are hard working guys, great men. I have talked to them about their experiences in the war. Those guys went through hell. As it has been mentioned in this thread before, they have more than earned the right to buy whatever bike they want, dress however they want, choose to wear a helmet or not (unless they are riding on base!), customize/personalize their bikes however they want and ride wherever they want. Thank God not everyone has the mindset of dvandkq.

God bless our soldiers, sailors and airmen, active duty, retired and/or Vets. :clap :clap :clap and for those of you who fit in that list, THANK YOU!

[petepeterson]

Damn,,,Damn,,,,,,,,,, And I tried so hard to leave this alone too...........

dvandkq,,,,,,,Your post #1 and # 3 brought you several scoldings which were way to tame... But!!!
Belquar comes in on post # 6 and covers it for me enough to stay quiet..........

Then you screw it up with post #18.............. Ya just couldn't leave it alone....... You need to understand it is not hard for people like me to have their chain pulled,, I have a 10lb weight hanging from my chain all the time........

And I rode Harley's most of my adult life, seemed natural at the time,,, they were and are great machines!!!
In jan. of 84 my wife opened her own bar so I would have a place to drink and not get thrown out of or arrested in ........ Why, because I had over 17 years at the time in the Marines and people like you with your rude insulting 'prose' would run their mouth just long enough to piss me off and bitch slap them across the bar......
I retired out of the Corps the 15th day of January 1988 and feel honored that I helped to secure the freedoms we have and to make sure your right to free speech will always be there.......

Then about 12 years after I retired I had a guy who I have known since he was a kid now a grown man wanted to say thanks for my service and gave me 2 (two) complete half sleeves free just because............

And now one of my 30 year long best friends ( brother to me) in in bad shape in the hospital maybe loosing his foot and maybe lower leg from burns he got in Nam.....

So be careful,, you may get by on the net saying rude and disrespectful of things about that which you know not!!!! But one day you might say it in public with me or someone like me standing there who don't care about going to jail, or getting band from a forum, or dying and going to Valhalla,, who will walk the walk for you..............

....................To All Semper Fi ,,,,,,,Pete

........................re

[Richr8]

...I ride a BMW. However, many of the Vietnam era vets suffer from PTSD and have succumbed to mental illness, drug addiction, and riding Harleys. Kinda makes sense really. :)

[knary]

I used to like BMW owners.

And then I read this thread.


:hide

[Motor31]

FWIW, I visited 2 bike dealers today. One was a Harley shop and they gave me directions to get to the Beemer shop nearby. They were outstandingly friendly even though I drove up in a Beemer, Joe Rocket jacket and full face helmet. I can't say anything negative about that shop. The receptionist was very caring and wanted to make sure I got some water before I headed back out into traffic.

The beemer shop was also friendly but not nearly as outgoing. To be fair, they were a small shop and had customers they were dealing with. I felt welcome there as well and would go back in a heart beat.

I really don't care a bit what the hell anyone rides. It's their money to spend not mine. As long as they ride it's good enough for me. If what someone else drives bothers you (other than loud noise or misuse) you are paying too much attention to other folks and not yourself. Just ride.

[Red100RT]

Oh......just "F" a bunch of Hogley fergusons anyway. :banghead

[dwestly]

Its only an issue because individuals make it one. For true motorcyclists, it doesn't matter what you ride...only that you ride. That is what makes us a brother and sisterhood.

We can all have fun casting humorous stones, but it should be always remain in the spirit of fun. If someone else (no matter what they ride) decides its an issue, ignore them. Just enjoy the companionship that these machines (of whatever make) brings us. Life it too short to complicate it with unneccessary and petty issues.

Oh, and for the record, 22 years of service, including my time in the Gulf War..and my beautiful wife, with 2 bikes of her own, did 20 as well.

Best Regards and Safe Riding..

[dwestly]

many thanks, we're proud to have served..please no one forget our brothers and sisters serving everywhere. We still have friends in harm's way..

Best Regards to All Riders

[Rapid_Roy]

.....
In jan. of 84 my wife opened her own bar so I would have a place to drink and not get thrown out of or arrested in ........ Why, because I had over 17 years at the time in the Marines and people like you with your rude insulting 'prose' would run their mouth just long enough to piss me off and bitch slap them across the bar
Firstly, thank you for your service to your country.
Your method of dealing with people you disagree with will work. Until of course, you ran into someone with 18 years in the Marines who was bigger or stronger or had more training in hand to hand and felt the same way you do.:D Is the winner the one who is most reasonable?
Having an unreasonable opinion is not written permission to beat someone, possibly maiming them, or even killing them. You don't have to buy them a beer however, and you could just stay away from the person. You are also assuming there are no BMW riders like that, which would also be stereotyping. It is an easy trap to fall into.
I go to many Harley events around Milwaukee and anybody who tries to beat someone who disagrees with them, would be dealt with. I can also assure you that probably wouldn't happen at a BMW rally. I have never seen anybody at a BMW Rally say "What are you lookin' at? I am gonna kick your butt!" or "That is a stupid comment, I am gonna kick your butt!"(EDIT:That doesn't mean it hasn't happened ever, it usually goes nowhere. I myself feel like responding that way sometimes to some peoples opinions.) Can I assume there are no BMW riding Marines or none of them make unreasonable comments? No.

My brother works at HD and one of then engineers told him that nobody wanted to ride anywhere in the '70s, so they have not always been the greatest motorcycles in the world. I think they are great, and Milwaukee should be proud, but I don't think they are the only motorcycle in the world.

I have been both welcomed and sneered at by HD riders and also by BMW riders and other brands and groups. It's people, not what they ride.

[Pat Carol]

Being a a veteran and serving both in the Army and then the Air force. I am a firm believer that our fight for freedom gives those a choice of what brand bike they want to ride.
Ride what you want and be happy. The only person you want to impress is yourself and no one else. You have that freedom because others like me chose to serve and protect that freedom of choice.
I am proud to have served my country and proud of our beliefs. I believe right now though that I am getting off this computer and going for a ride.

PC

[rangepig]

Its only an issue because individuals make it one. For true motorcyclists, it doesn't matter what you ride...only that you ride. That is what makes us a brother and sisterhood.

We can all have fun casting humorous stones, but it should be always remain in the spirit of fun.
I think you hit it on the head here. Normally it's just good natured fun but some people (seems like more and more every day) take it too far because of insecurity or any of a number of other personal issues and start believing the bashing. To some people, life has become a giant competition where they feel the need to "win" by feeling superior to everyone else.

[Rapid_Roy]

..... To some people, life has become a giant competition where they feel the need to "win" by feeling superior to everyone else.

Dang, I lost.:laugh J/k

[rgvilla]

I'm a Vietnam Veteran as well, combat veteran at that. What I don't get is what that has to do with what kind of motorcycle I ride? Or if I'm patriotic or not, or if I had PTSD, or if I ever drank or took drugs, or had mental illness. I've ridden many different brands of motorcycles and loved them all, cursed them, broken down, had loud pipes, quiet pipes, etc. I really have enjoyed my BMW's (I've only had two) but I wasn't any different kind of person when I was riding my Harley or my BSA or my Kawasaki, or Cushman or Honda.

I got done with war after my tour in SE Asia, it wasn't fun. I have Veteran friends who I totally disagree with politically but we have a shared experience that quite frankly doesn't have a damn thing to do with motorcycles.

I ride a motorcycle because I enjoy it, not because I'm a veteran, although as somebody on this thread said it is good therapy for me.

So, I say ride your own ride, don't scorn others who don't ride what you ride or believe like you believe. Let go of the anger and violence towards others that you perceive as doing this. Practice peace. Ride Safe!

[Mika]

Here is my take on what I have read in this thread and learned in the past week.

If I die in England and my family has a motorcycle hearse take my remains to the grave, apparently it is a funeral.
http://www.motorcyclefunerals.com/

If I die in the US and my family has a motorcycle hearse take my remains to the grave it is a political statement based in patriotism.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/nation...og_heaven.html
http://www.tombstonehearse.com/

The cost, well I guess that is a function of the funeral homes business plan and market factors.

I have been reading through the BMW Annual Report for 2006. Exciting stuff let me tell you. I found three interesting numbers in it.
1. Worldwide BMW shipped 100,064 motorcycles. This is the first time BMW has shipped more than 100,000 units in a year.
2. Since 1923 and the first bike BMW to the end of 2006, has sold 2,061,977 motorcycles worldwide.
3. Since 1969 to the end of 2006 BMW sold 1,616,016 motorcycles worldwide.

I spent a bit of time looking through Harley-Davidsons corporate report for 2002 -2006. From these reports I was able to come up with figures that include 2001. Buell sales are included in these numbers and have been running between 10,900 and 12,000 units per year.

In the fourth quarter of 2006 H-D sold 92,848 units.

Starting with 2001 and ending in 2006 sales by year were:

244,386
274,596
301,247
317,289
329,017
349,196

1,826,897

In 7 years H-D ends up beating BMW by roughly 200,000+ units for what they sold since 1969 by comparison. At the same time H-D is roughly 200,000- shy of the total units BMW has sold in its entire world wide motorcycle production history. I suspect that H-D will eclipse the total BMW production figure by the end of this year or the first quarter of next.

US market share for motorcycles >651cc

2001
H-D…46.4
Hon…20.2
Suz ….9.8
Yam…9.3
Kaw…7.1
BMW..2.5
Other ..4.6

2005
H-D…48.6
Hon…15.1
Suz …13.1
Yam …8.8
Kaw….7.1
BMW --
Other…7.3

BMW was not listed separately for the 2005 report.


I do a good deal of volunteer work with various homeless and mental health programs. The past Friday I was at a luncheon kick off for a program by the University of Minnesota and a program I am involved with to provide mental health services to returning vets. The program has several goals including a formal study of PTSD. Previous studies, we were told, have been retrospective in nature, working with clients long after the diagnosis. The hope is to find ways of helping proactively rather than reactively to the disorder.

In previous studies one of the predictors of successful reintegration after a tour of war duty was the serviceman’s involvement in group activities with other returning servicemen and others.

This is all interesting in a weird sort of way, but I fail to find any causality relationship in all of it. If riding Harleys helps returning vets, or any vet successfully reintegrate into civilian life I am all for it.

I will still buy a Euro style bike. I like BMW’s and the fact that I don’t see them all over the road. If some one wants to buy a Harley that is their choice. If we decide to ride together great, and maybe we could swap bikes for part of a day.

At the end of the day it will still cost all of us a buck for a small cup of coffee at the Lilydale gas station. We will get some change and a chance to talk at look at our bikes. To me that is what this is all about.

[petepeterson]

Firstly, thank you for your service to your country.
Your method of dealing with people you disagree with will work. Until of course, you ran into someone with 18 years in the Marines who was bigger or stronger or had more training in hand to hand and felt the same way you do.:D Is the winner the one who is most reasonable?
Having an unreasonable opinion is not written permission to beat someone, possibly maiming them, or even killing them. You don't have to buy them a beer however, and you could just stay away from the person. You are also assuming there are no BMW riders like that, which would also be stereotyping. It is an easy trap to fall into.
I go to many Harley events around Milwaukee and anybody who tries to beat someone who disagrees with them, would be dealt with. I can also assure you that probably wouldn't happen at a BMW rally. I have never seen anybody at a BMW Rally say "What are you lookin' at? I am gonna kick your butt!" or "That is a stupid comment, I am gonna kick your butt!"(EDIT:That doesn't mean it hasn't happened ever, it usually goes nowhere. I myself feel like responding that way sometimes to some peoples opinions.) Can I assume there are no BMW riding Marines or none of them make unreasonable comments? No.

My brother works at HD and one of then engineers told him that nobody wanted to ride anywhere in the '70s, so they have not always been the greatest motorcycles in the world. I think they are great, and Milwaukee should be proud, but I don't think they are the only motorcycle in the world.

I have been both welcomed and sneered at by HD riders and also by BMW riders and other brands and groups. It's people, not what they ride.


Hmmm,,,,Not sure what your saying but ok,,,,,, I haven't worried about the bigger or stronger for many a year..... Those were few and far between,,,, the shorter 5ft7 to 6 footer were worst of all.... Besides the size of the dog in the fight don't mean a thing...... I was 6ft 4 and was at max allowable weight on active duty at 225# sooooo................Pete

[2BikeMike]

I used to like BMW owners.

And then I read this thread.


:hide

Not trying to pick on you or anything but, see how easy it is to lump everybody together? Not all BMW owners have jumped into the fray. :)

[Rapid_Roy]

Hmmm,,,,Not sure what your saying but ok,,,,,, I haven't worried about the bigger or stronger for many a year..... Those were few and far between,,,, the shorter 5ft7 to 6 footer were worst of all.... Besides the size of the dog in the fight don't mean a thing...... I was 6ft 4 and was at max allowable weight on active duty at 225# sooooo................Pete
I don't blame you. After rereading it, I don't either.:laugh

I guess I was trying to say the "bitch slapping" someone because they have an unreasonable opinion seems, well, unreasonable, and a waste of time. You won't change their mind.
It might make you feel better, unless they are the better "slapper" (not necessarily bigger or stronger) in which case you won't feel better. Cuffing the person around because they have a unreasonable opinion, in your view, wouldn't actually make somebody the more reasonable person. If somebody tried that at the BMWMOA Nat'l, even if the other person was being really unreasonable, it would be considered undesirable behavior, possibly on both parties parts. If you did that at a Harley event, the results could also be very unexpected.The best reaction would be just walking away.

This is a written forum and it is easy to misunderstand
somebody. The first poster may have phrased it better, but I am not going to make any assumptions about him, or you. I myself have wondered about the connection between Vets and Harleys. I have no problem with it, nor do I feel threatened by it. Living in Milwaukee, I have wondered why I don't see many other bikes with MIA flags and American flags on them. When I first started riding, it was only Harleys. Since then, I have seen other bikes with them, but mostly Harleys. This seems to make the guy who started the thread feel they have "cornered the market" on patriotism. If that is his feeling, he is entitled to it, but it seems more of a perception issue. He is free to put a flag on his bike also, as am I. The speeds at which I ride would not be kind to a flag though.

Anyway, if you are going to the Nat'l, I will buy you a beer and try to be reasonable.:laugh :usa :thumb

[knary]

Not trying to pick on you or anything but, see how easy it is to lump everybody together? Not all BMW owners have jumped into the fray. :)

:nod

We have a winner. :clap

[Mudbug]

I'm a vet and I got back into motorcycling after a 25 year hiatus. I looked around at cruisers including Honda and Yamaha. Sport bikes did not appeal to me. I saw a lot of Harley's around. One day I walked into the local Harley-Davidson dealership and bought a Harley. That was 1999 and it seemed like the thing to do.

It had nothing to do with patriotism. It was what I liked at the time. Shortly there after I found the local BMW dealership and immediately realized that I would own a BMW. I rode the Harley a lot, more than most other Harley owners. I joined HOG, went to the rallies, wore the patches and pins. I just did not fit in. I did not feel comfortable. I am more comfortable with BMW riders.

[Rapid_Roy]

I'm a vet and I got back into motorcycling after a 25 year hiatus. I looked around at cruisers including Honda and Yamaha. Sport bikes did not appeal to me. I saw a lot of Harley's around. One day I walked into the local Harley-Davidson dealership and bought a Harley. That was 1999 and it seemed like the thing to do.

It had nothing to do with patriotism. It was what I liked at the time. Shortly there after I found the local BMW dealership and immediately realized that I would own a BMW. I rode the Harley a lot, more than most other Harley owners. I joined HOG, went to the rallies, wore the patches and pins. I just did not fit in. I did not feel comfortable. I am more comfortable with BMW riders.

Thank you for your service Mudbug, great post. May I ask why you felt you didn't fit in with the HD crowd?

[bobs98]

And consider myself patriotic, but never had a desire to own a Harley. I have ridden several, but did not find them particularly comfortable, especially for a long ride.

I have only had my "C" for 5 years, after owning a KZ400 for two, Yam 850 Special for seven and Virago 1100 for ten. I have also ridden the new R12GS, R12RT, K12S and K12GT. I happen to like mine the best of them all. Does that make me a BMW non-conformist? Certainly non-traditional, if nothing else. I have heard and read many negatives about the BMW Cruiser and like to trade jabs with some of my HD friends, but none of it gets as ugly as some of the stuff I have seen around here.

To make sweeping generalizations about people based on their choice of ride, military status or appearance, without knowing anything about them can be interpreted as inflamatory and insulting. I like the looks and styling of many of the HD product line, and if they made a better quality product (my opinion), then I might just own one.

I like the brotherhood and cameraderie of motorcyclists and find that I have much more in common with the BMW crowd. But that doesn't mean I won't attend local charity events or ride with the other 95% that are non-BMW owners.

Enjoy the ride.

[Mudbug]

Thank you for your service Mudbug, great post. May I ask why you felt you didn't fit in with the HD crowd?

I thought long and hard about how to answer that question. I don't want to appear to bash anyone or their choice of motorcycles. So let's leave it at "it just wasn't my cup of tea."

[Rapid_Roy]

I thought long and hard about how to answer that question. I don't want to appear to bash anyone or their choice of motorcycles. So let's leave it at "it just wasn't my cup of tea."

:laugh I thought you would just say "you may ask."
Fair enough. Thank you.:thumb

[osbornk]

I thought long and hard about how to answer that question. I don't want to appear to bash anyone or their choice of motorcycles. So let's leave it at "it just wasn't my cup of tea."

I thought your answer would be "If you have to ask, you wouldn't understand."

[pcsof8]

When I left the Navy, I almost bought a Harley. I really think it was because the HD represented the "bad boy" image I had been living in the Navy. I figued that, "hey, I'll be a bad ass on the outside too" ,and I'm a vet, kewl.
One day I woke up and thought about it. I did some research, and found out that I wanted a bike that was dependable, fast, and was highly engineered. I chose the BMW. I might get a Victory Kingpin for a nice cruiser, but HD?...no thanks. Not knocking anyones HD, but it's just not for me.:german