Is Crashing Inevitable???

[RebeccaV]

During a recent conversation about the increase of motorcycle accidents nationwide, a friend paused dramatically, cleared his throat, and dispensed the following platitude: “There are two kinds of motorcyclists: those who have been down and those who are going to go down.”

Yaddah, yaddah, yaddah. It’s a cute biker saying, but is it true? Is it borne out by facts? Have you crashed? Will you? What say you, the Forum?

[Rad]

Originally posted by boxergrrlie
Have you crashed?

Yup:eek

[basketcase]

I first heard that platitude as, "There are two kinds of motorcyclists -- those who have dropped their bike, and those who are going to."

Naturally, the implication is that everyone will eventually drop their bike. I don't necessarily agree. Of all the bikes I have owned, I've dropped only two. And fortunately, I never dropped the Wing.

And I know riders who have never crashed.

That said, those who get overconfident are often the first to fall on their face ... or their arse, as the case may be.

IMHO

[RevWillie]

Originally posted by boxergrrlie
Have you crashed? Will you? What say you, the Forum?

All those miles, all those cages, all those curves, all those intersections, all those spaced-out pedestrians, all those drivers attached to their cell phones.........

You ride the miles, eventually your luck runs out and you go down.

(sometimes. we riders don't help our chances either!)

:eek a crash test dummy

[Rich]

Originally posted by Rev.Willie

You ride the miles, eventually your luck runs out and you go down.



Like everyone else who has never been down, I aim to prove you wrong. I can only hope, anyway. Wish me luck!

[PeoriaMac]

Some time ago, Rider Magazine's resident safety guru answered this in an article. The theory is that if you ride enough miles, eventually it (crashing) will catch up with you. Or...riding on "borrowed time".
All this assumes two things.
A. We don't learn from experience, and ride at the same level of skill after twenty years that we did at 20 days.
B. Accidents are inevitable for all people.

Would you rather fly with a pilot with 10-thousand hours experience or a pilot just out of flight school? After all, under the "riding on borrowed time" theory, the experienced pilot is "due" for an accident.

That said, I've been riding for nearly 40 years and have had two bad accidents (no real damage to me, but the bike was bent)
One accident was in 1978, which mixed riding and beer, and the second was in August of 2003, which mixed an unfamiliar road, too much speed and a tight curve...all things I should have
learned to be careful about during the previous three decades.

Are accidents inevitable? No. A strong possibility, given
human nature? Yep.

Mac

[jerry]

overall the answer is yes.

[kbasa]

The last time I slid down the road sans bike was in 1979. Since then, I've tried to improve my skills constantly. I've taken CLASS, I've purchased decent safety gear and done everything I can to keep myself safe. Over that time, I've probably covered a quarter of a million miles on both Hondas and BMWs.

Every time I get on my bike, though, I realize that I only need to get home safely from this ride. With that approach, I can manage my safety, a little at a time.

I think constant improvement in ones skills is the key here. I'm due for more track time this year, so I'll try to go a couple times. The best time to learn how far you can lean your bike over is not when a logging truck is taking up the middle of a mountain road.

[knary]

I've never fallen down.
:drink

ok. I have.

I wear the best gear I can afford and do what I can to keep my skills up because: 1. we all make mistakes. 2. we all make mistakes. 3. **** happens. Never forget that life is an inherently risky endeavor. Be warned, be aware, and relish it.

I wish I could put myself on the same list as Kbasa. But this has been a hard year. Insurance is a Good thing. Can I have a Hallelujah?

[jgr451]

Good thread BG.

I have crashed 3 times,only once hard. I have dropped the bike a couple of times too.Each time the damage to the bike was minimal and I walked away bruised but not broken.Only one was self induced ,the others were a combination of others'inattention and my inexperience.I crashed after leaving the Montana rally in 1998!!

I don't think crashing is inevitable though,nor do I think avoiding crashing is just a matter of luck or fate.

Now that I realize that crashing hurts and might kill me,I am not as free to give myself over to abandon for the sheer joy of it.There was a road in Wisconsin on the way to the Trenton rally,in which all the forces combined for 90 minutes.I flew.That is high risk behaviour and sometimes,I just have to let it go.

[PineGreen]

Being that a bike has only two wheels, it is only logical that sooner or later gravity will win out. This is not to say you will crash,but you will drop the bike or fall over. I had not fallen or dropped one since 1967, but in April of 02 while riding through a McDonalds parking lot at 10 mph I turned and the front end went out from under me. I had a bruised knee the bike had a ruined crashbar and the wife a broken ankle which happened when her foot got sandwitched between the panniers and the tarmack. Her comment was, 'at least my foot saved the bags from getting skinned up" {My kind of woman}. Also, just last summer I took the RT off of the side stand, put my foot down and it slid out from under me and the bike did a slowroll onto the head protectors. Do not see that there was anything I could have done to prevent the first incident other that stay upwind of Mickiey D's exhaust fan. The second, well maybe looked down to see what I was stepping into but, it was at a friends house and I had parked there many times before. So to end this, Don't let paronoia set in and start thinking you are about to get creamed by someone everytime you ride, but eventually you will meet Mr Macadams invention one way or the other

[lorazepam]

Yet another good thread BG! I haven't crashed since I have begun wearing the proper safety gear, ( I always have worn a helmet). I have voluntarily killed enough brain cells to have more die in a crash. My crash was in the 70's as well, and it involved beer and the bike. I was eye witness to a fatal crash last year, where the rider on a gold wing hit a small animal and went down. If he had been wearing a helmet and gear, I imagine he would be here today. I ride with the attitude that today is the day, and I will do whatever I can to avoid that crash. Some may say I am too cautious, but hey, I ride within myself and make sure that if the unexpected happens, I am not on the edge of control. That is for the track.

[oldcarkook]

I will, for the purpose of this discussion, say that dropping a bike in a low speed maneuver or while stopped is not what I call crashing or going down. It's more a Homer Simpson "DYOH!" move. I have made the Homer Simpson move, but I have not gone for the slide of life on the street.

I embrace the same things stated above by most of you; I try to keep my skills up and one other thing: I read everything I can get my hands on. I ALWAYS read the "rider down" stories in hopes that those experiences will help me to avoid making similar or the same mistakes. And like Knary, I wear the best gear I can get and am prepared for the worst and hoping for the best.

I have crashed literally hundreds of times on dirt bikes, but I think that crashing a dirt bike is truly part of the deal and is inevitable. And I have dropped a bike in the middle of nowhere on a back country road during a low speed turnaround at the end of a very long day. But as far as crashing a big street bike being inevitable, I don't think so.

I would liken the mindset that crashing on a bike is no more inevitable than crashing in an airplane. Bikes go down and planes go down, but the numbers are low relative to the overall exposure. Lots of pilots ride and I'm sure that every one of them will vehemently deny that crashing is inevitable. I think planes and bikes are a good analogy.

I am in the no group in answer to the question. Great topic BG - thanks.

[manicmechanic]

Ya pays yer money, ya takes yer chances. Have broken bones in the old MX days, never racing, tho. But if you never go looking for the edges of the envelope, you'll never know where they are. Also, dirt riding did make me more comfy on the road, as far as handling the road bike. My take is that there is something out there with my number on it, and my task is to avoid that something. Which means watching out for pretty much everything. I realize I can go down, have done so on the road(deer strike), and fervently hope I never repeat the event. My helmet and riding gear did their jobs. There's nothing so sobering as waking up in a ditch, with the driver of the car you were passing standing over you saying, "Oh, he's alive! Don't move!"

"There's nothing like the taste of death to make you appreciate life." from a No Fear T-shirt I own.

[Gizmo]

I prefer to use the word possible rather than inevitable. If I was told or was convinced that I would crash I would not get on a motorcycle. I do of course realize that a crash is possible, but I choose to ride because I feel I can minimize the possibilty of a crash through education, practice, being extra vigilent while riding
and of course wearing high quality riding gear in the event of an unexpected dismount.

[jerry]

During a recent conversation about the increase of motorcycle accidents nationwide, a friend paused dramatically, cleared his throat, and dispensed the following platitude: “There are two kinds of motorcyclists: those who have been down and those who are going to go down.”

Yaddah, yaddah, yaddah. It’s a cute biker saying, but is it true? Is it borne out by facts? Have you crashed? Will you? What say you, the Forum?

.................................................. .............

some very good replies to the question but for the most part they all have one thing in common;
i crashed and learned fom the experience.

thus......the answer is yes.

those that haven't, well....there's probably reasons that aren't neccesary to go into here, but best wishes to everybody that chooses to ride.
jerry

[fish]

Originally posted by jerry

thus......the answer is yes.




Agreed. Just hope when you go down, you don't get seriously injured (you ARE wearing all the gear all the time (ATGATT), aren't you?) and you learn something that will prevent it from happening again in the future. There's nothing like a little roadrash to raise your humility.

[kbasa]

Originally posted by Blue Knight
I agree.This is a much better general outlook.

But "inevitable" can certainly apply to individuals who push the enveloppe beyond their skills.

Mike

Which is exactly why I try and keep my skills moving forward.

[jerry]

"There's nothing like a little roadrash to raise your humility".

how very, very, true. :dunno

[speed reed]

In 1978 this fellow had his right turn singal on and I passed him on the left, well he turned left. I was on a Harley. To make it a short story I got about a third of my left foot ground off after it ground my work shoe off. My foot was wedged between the car tire and the pavement after I was nocked off the bike. Thirty seven days in the hospital, four operations, two hundred and ninety six shots of demoral (WOW!) I kept my foot and leg. Got married to the girl I was dating at the time. We had a kid raised him ( did get him a trail bike at thirteen) and did not ride for twenty two years on the street for the most part except on some borrowed friends bikes. It taught me alot. If I had learned at that time not to trust the other drivers I might have avoided this accident. But I was young and invincilbe. I'm much more vigilante now but not convinced I won't go down again. I try not to dwell on it and have become more cautious these days.

Be safe!

Reed

[widebmw]

CRASH? When I started riding it was mostly in the dirt.
You could "go down" but a crash was when you could not ride the bike home. Whether it was the bike or you that was damaged did not matter.
Times have changed, people seem to think if you drop a bike is was a crash.

[PeoriaMac]

John, I like your defination. In that case, I've never crashed.
I think I'll call my insurance agent....

Mac :-)

[basketcase]

"People seem to think that if you drop the bike it was a crash."

That is exactly the distinction I was thinking about when I first posted. I do not count a carport or yard drop with no damage as a "crash." But since you brought it up:

- Dirt bike "crashes" = too many to recall.

- Carport or yard drops = 2

- Hit something or got hit by something crashes = 3. (I forgot one of them when I posted earlier). One of them (high school) required an ambulance ride and did major damage to the bike.

Also, that tally does not include a dual sport episode in high school in which my girlfriend refused to get off and walk up an embankment for me to ride out of a culvert that ran underneath the interstate. On that occasion, I lost it climbing the hill and the bike landed on us both -- and we slid back down the embankment into the drainage ditch. It scratched me up -- and it broke her arm.

Dripping wet, I took her to the emergency room on the back of the bike. It did not help matters that it struck me funny ...

[RebeccaV]

Originally posted by widebmw
Times have changed, people seem to think if you drop a bike is was a crash.
The different definitions of 'crash' are interesting! I don't think that dropping your bike = a crash. If it did (counting on fingers)...nevermind! I wasn't considering nor did I mean to include off-road 'crashes.' I agree with oldcarkook that off-road crashes are inevitable. However, off-road is totally different and involves different bikes, different riding and different hazards than street riding.

When I asked if crashing was inevitable, I was talking about street riding. And honestly, I just don't want to believe that if I ride long enough, I will crash! Unfortunately, I couldn't find any statistics that address that specifically. However, most motorcycle accidents involve young men who are speeding, have been drinking, and don't have a motorcycle license. OK, so I'm not a man, I'm properly licensed and I never drink and drive. Three out of four's not bad, right?;) In fact, throw in my dorky yellow flourescent vest and I actually like my odds.

That being said, every time I get on my bike I plan for the worst. If you haven't read it in a while, check out the Hurt study (1981) on the IBMWR site: http://www.ibmwr.org/otech/hurt.html and the 2002 NHTSA Traffic Safety Facts for Motorcycles: http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd-30/NCSA/TSF2002/2002mcyfacts.pdf -bg

[mthelmet]

I have been riding for 40 + years and over 250,000 miles on BMW's. I have had 3 accidents.

One in 1971 with an R75/5, ladies stopped a stop sign, in heavy rain, then pulled out in front of me.

The second was in 1981, when rear wheel split between the spoke hole, on the same R75/5. Down at 60 mph.

The third time was at the national in IL, in the fair grounds,on a R90/6 when a K bike hit us almost head on.

In all of the accident had on slight injuries to myself and the wife.
The bikes only small amount of damage. The most damage was to the K bike which I think was totaled. The cage needed a front left fender.

So count your blessing if you have never had an accident with your bike. Get all of the training you can, but keep a sharp eye for anything can and will happen.

AS my sons buddy said **** happens when you party nude.:clap

[BMWRider]

Originally posted by mt helmet


AS my sons buddy said **** happens when you party nude.:clap

I wouldn't know. I haven't partied nude since about 1979 ... which was just about the last time I crashed. :cry
Coincidence?
I think not. :brow

[RebeccaV]

Originally posted by BMWRider
Coincidence? I think not. :brow
:rofl

[kbasa]

Rider: Send pictures.

[speed reed]

In my crash the emergency room personel said they had not seen anything like it. It took a hour and a half to get to the hospital by the the time the ambulance picked me up and got me there. It took six hours to find a doctor who thought he could work on my foot. My girl friend, who is now my wife, came into the emergency room and stared vomiting in the sink. I'm lucky to have my leg and life. It all happened at 35mph. See above post about the accident.

Be careful out there!

Reed

[MCMXCIVRS]

The only sure way to avoid a crash is to keep you bike safely locked in your garage or better yet, sell it, hide in your house with the windows shut and the blinds drawn and pray a metorite or falling aircraft doesn't hit you.

Yes, the more you ride, statistically the higher the odds that something will happen and you will crash. Is it inevitable? No, I don't think so. Rider skill increases with experience, so I think if you calculate the odds per miles ridden, it is probably significantly reduced the more you ride. But if your going to get out there, it just might be your unlucky day. I think that this is still better than the first alternative. I too am among the fortunate who have never crashed a bike. I have done the dumb a** drop the bike routine. But that really is not a crash when your not even moving and just fall down. I've also had some close calls, some my own doing, some the doing of others. I try to keep my skills sharp and learn from my mistakes to help me lower the odds.

[lancew]

Interesting topic. I've never had a "splat" on the street, and was pretty much in the "I can avoid it forever" camp. Then I thought about the car accidents I've been in- a couple my fault when I was a kid (read: stupid), and two that were definitely the other guy. One was just a fender-bender, but even that one would have been a disaster on a motorcycle. Weird things happen- one time I was sitting at a light in Atlanta, guy coming the other way was yakking on his cell phone and took his foot off the brake, not paying attention. His car proceeded to roll across 6 lanes of Peachtree Street traffic and hit my pickup head on at about 10 mph (note to Saab- your radiators are the exact same height as a pickup's front bumper).

Then, there are the close calls- worst was riding home after an unexpected cold snap, and while slowing down on a bridge I noticed that the shadow of my front wheel wasn't turning for about 20 feet- :help . Still not sure how I stayed up.

I'm not convinced a fall is "inevitable", but I will probably approach the possibility differently. I usually ride in jeans, maybe it's time to get some bottoms with armor... Wish BG had brought this up BEFORE Christmas!

[Cliffy777]

I don't agree with the inevitability of a crash. Seems like a downer way of looking at riding a bike. I am going to do my best to prove that thought wrong - but just in case I always wear a full face, always wear boots n gloves, 99.5% of the time I wear a jacket with armor. I usually wear jeans as well, but might invest in some armoured riding pants next spring.....

[Fritzc]

Probability: (odds, chance) Random House Dictionary:
"The relative possibility that an event will occur as expressed by the ratio of actual occurences to the number of possible occurences." Flipping a coin should produce heads every other toss, statistically, but it could possibly come up tails 500 times in a row. But in any case the probability of heads for each toss does not change. Therefore go for a ride happy in knowing the odds of having an accident do not change no matter how many times you go for a ride. What might change the odds is traffic, weather, alcohol consumption, mental state (angry at SO) etc.
:clap

[Weasel]

I learned to ride on wet grass with a small motorcycle and then got a license for it. By the time I started riding on the street, I pretty much know what not to do. Years later, I bought a brand new R60/6. All of the "crashes" I ever experienced affected how I road the BMW. I have yet to crash the BMW.

But someone rear-ended me a few years back. Broke my fender...my back was a little ginger for a few days. And I had been watching her behind me! Traffic scooted up about 20 yards at a light, and wham! I was in the next lane (bike veered to the left) because my clutch hand let go. A car whizzed by me and missed me by inches, but I was able to pull the clutch in and rev the engine to keep it going when I stopped half way across the lane...and got the heck back into my lane.

[The_Veg]

I have once, very luckily a low-speed lowside with no other vehicles around. The culprit in that case was pavement worn so slick that it shined even when dry, or I suppose you could say I took it too fast- but I'd taken that corner every morning with no problem until that day. Maybe I just hit the wrong spot. I've done a few drops too.
I am solidly in the 'possible' camp and I do try my best to keep it from happening, and to keep myself protected if it does. I als agree with those who said that life is all for living instead of cowering in worry.

[oldcarkook]

Well, I forgot (wanted to forget) that a little over a year ago while sitting at a stop sign in the center of Foxboro, I was rear-ended by an elderly driver who was talking to her dog. She did $1800 damage and punched me into traffic and I had near hit (George Carlin says there's no such thing as a near miss - it's a near hit) from a pickup who was whizzing by minding his own business. I was fine after I threw away my u-trow.

I stayed up but lost the rear bags, rear fender, and quaffed the tire and rim from the impact. Since I didn't "go down" I still don't consider this a "crash".

Interesting to see how many others here are dirt riders. I would ride dirt to work everyday if I could get away with it. I love woods riding, and the best part about riding dirt: trees don't make left turns or pull out in front of you.

[jerry]

perhaps we're getting off topic but if it helps just one then it's worth it.

couple years ago had trailered bike in at the end of the season for spline lube and new tires.
upon returning home i did fluid changes and all that good stuff,
ran bike out to fill up with gas and came around a curve that i'd been thru many times, bike went down and slid across 2 lanes before stopping.

figure out why yet?

mold release agent the tire companies use.
we all have heard about it ( i hope) but sometimes your mind just goes astray.

be reminded and ride safe,

[speed reed]

Originally posted by oldcarkook Interesting to see how many others here are dirt riders. I would ride dirt to work everyday if I could get away with it. I love woods riding, and the best part about riding dirt: trees don't make left turns or pull out in front of you.

Amen

Reed 1150GS Honda 200 dirt bike.

[R80RTJohnny]

Actually there are three kinds of riders: those who have gone down, those who are about to go down and finally those that will go down again.

Riding a motorcycle requires 100 percent attention. Looking back at my three get-offs (last one July 1st, 1989 Canada Day) I realise that it was not the bike that got me into trouble but myself. Bikes, the little darlings, will only go where you point them.

Before riding I now try to remember the following: 24 hours from bottle to throttle.

Sorry for this sick remark but someone out there is just waiting for your organs to become available. This one comes from a television program where they interviewed people waiting for transplants. One in particular was saddened that cagers wore seatbelts and motorcyclists wore helmets.

To those of you who can ride during the winter months me and the bike salute you.

[James O]

Interesting thread as March of 04 will be my first full year riding. As I look back on my years ( I'm 39 ) in a cage, I've been in 5 accidents: 3 with other vehicles and 2 with deer. Out of those none were my fault yet all but one of them was avoidable ( the last deer strike was impossible to miss ). I like to think that all but one of them would not have occurred if I was on my bike because all three times I was hit I probably could have avoided these accidents if I was so in tune with my surroundings like I think I am when I ride my bike.

Having said that, let me say this. When most people ask why they ride a bike they typically say " Because of the freedom ". I ride because it makes me feel "alive". Well, I guess if you really look closely at it, what makes me feel alive is getting on a machine without any protection; going from A to B; and arriving without any bodily harm. If I admit this, than I have to be honest with myself and realize that sometime in the future I will have an accident. I'll do everything I can to try to prevent this (rider education, riding within my limits, etc. ) and I will continue to dress for the crash, not for the ride, but at some time in the future I have to believe that an accident is at least probable, if not inevitable.

I sure am having fun though.

James O

[BradfordBenn]

At sixteen years of age, I got T-Boned by a Pacer (does that give you an idea of how long ago). I went up the hood, the helmet shattered the windshield, I went over the roof and landed on the road behind the car. I stood up, looked around for my bike and then walked to the curb where I very quickly went into shock.

Did enough damage that I have arthritis in both knees, and people can hear me walking down the hall from the ankle pop.

About ten years later, I got T-boned again. This time not nearly as bad. Once again, helmet got to go bounce. I did not even tear my jacket. No real damage it looked like got up and rode back to the aparment. Upon taking off the jacket, I saw something red. I then realized that I had taken a chunk of my elbow off, and could see some bone.

Oh yeah, these both occured on bicycles. Neither was my fault, and yada yada yada.

Basically from these two crashed I learned two very valuable lessons

1) They really freaking hurt - for life in the case of my knees.
2) The more time on the road the more you are at risk.

As soon as I stopped riding my bicycle everywhere and started driving to get places... No more T-Bones other than steaks.

Also to cut down on the hurt, I dress for the crash not the ride. I also choose my route to avoid known traffic areas if possible.

I expect to go down and try to do everything I can to prevent it, much like KBasa - one ride at a time.

Each time I ride, I do the T-Clok check modified for BMW boxers and check the tire pressure. No booze at all if two wheeling. Well you get the idea.

However the joy I get from riding is worth the risk I take.:clap