Virginia Tech Shootings...

[YELLOW_S]

http://www.myfoxkc.com/myfox/pages/News/Detail?contentId=2939573&version=47&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=3.1.1


:mad :cry


31 dead plus the gunman

More info was releashed...

NEW: No ID on shooter; school president says it was a student living in dorm
• At least two professors among the dead in Virginia Tech massacre
• Police have preliminary identification of campus gunman
• University officials say 33 dead, including gunman

Shooter was "Asian male" dorm resident, Virginia Tech President Charles Steger says
"He was one of our students," Steger says
Steger not sure second gunman was involved
"The injuries were just amazing," doctor says

Gunman identified as Cho Seung-hui, a 23-year-old English major from South Korea

From CNN.com

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/17/vtech.shooting/index.html

[kreinke]

A very sad day for V-tech, Virginia, and The Nation. My prayers go out to everyone involved.:(

It's hard to say what causes this kind of madness but what are we saying about ourselves as a society when we try to export our way of life to places like Baghdad when we have our own barbarity here it would seem?

I'm not really sure what to say. I'm sure the politicians are going to pile on the gun control wagon...er freight train....which was ready for departure after Columbine but now will for sure leave the station.

Speaking as a gun owner myself I can't say I blame them.

I guess as I get older I feel a little more sad about the world in general every time something like this happens and wonder how long it will be until full blown anarchy takes over......I'll probably need the guns at that point.

[riderR1150GSAdv]

I feel for the families of the victims. :cry There is no way to imagine the sorrow they must feel.

[SNC1923]

A horrific event. As a postsecondary teacher, I sometimes wonder if this will ever happen where I work. The town in which I live has more gun ownership per capita than any town in California.

The ready availability of guns in our country is the first thing I thought of when I heard this. I understand the literal interpretation of the Second Amendment and that people kill, not guns, but I must also reflect that this sort of thing rarely if ever happens in countries where there is a limited supply of firepower.

Nonetheless, I will leave this to the debaters and keep my thoughts with the many, many victims of this senseless tragedy.

[Rod Sheridan]

My sypathies are with the families and students of the university.

Such a senseless, incomprehensible act.

regards, Rod.

[screwtop]

A very sad day for V-tech, Virginia, and The Nation. My prayers go out to everyone involved.:(

It's hard to say what causes this kind of madness but what are we saying about ourselves as a society when we try to export our way of life to places like Baghdad when we have our own barbarity here it would seem?

I'm not really sure what to say. I'm sure the politicians are going to pile on the gun control wagon...er freight train....which was ready for departure after Columbine but now will for sure leave the station.

Speaking as a gun owner myself I can't say I blame them.

I guess as I get older I feel a little more sad about the world in general every time something like this happens and wonder how long it will be until full blown anarchy takes over......I'll probably need the guns at that point.

Interesting perspective Kreinke, and I feel your pain as a gun owner. I actually had a dream that "big brother" came to my house last night and cleaned out my safe.

Anyway, the politicians will undoubtedly look for a regulatory answer to this kind of maddness, for which there is not one. There is no regulatory answer to random acts of violence, we can only plan for, have contingencies in place, and try to minimize their impact as much as possible. One thing is certain, this guy would have been room temperature before he reaped the carnage he did if teaches or administrators were armed.

Lastly, the perpatrator in this case was here on a student visa. I would have to say he brought his barbarity to our soil. Just MHO.

[Bob_M]

A horror and malevolent crime.

In light of the shooting, I was going to opine about second ammendment security and other ammendment erosion, but grandstanding to take advantage of the hot topic defames the victims and turns the sorrow of the survivors into a political lever.

Damn, what a nightmare.

RIP kids :cry

[osbornk]

It's hard to say what causes this kind of madness but what are we saying about ourselves as a society when we try to export our way of life to places like Baghdad when we have our own barbarity here it would seem?

I'm not really sure what to say. I'm sure the politicians are going to pile on the gun control wagon...er freight train....which was ready for departure after Columbine but now will for sure leave the station.

The shooter at Virginia Tech was a student from South Korea. The man who killed and injured people at the Appalachian School of Law in Grundy, VA (I live between the 2 schools) was a student from Nigeria. Looks like it it others importing their barbarity here than us exporting ours.

The Virginia Legislature tried to pass a law that would allow professors and students with concealed weapon permits to carry their weapons on college campuses but it was defeated. Wonder how many lives might have been saved if the professor who was killed after he held the door closed while his students jumped out of the window if he had been able to return the fire of the killer? The killer at the Appalachian School of law was held by another student who was a retired police officer who retrieved his weapon from his vehicle. The crooks always find a way to get guns and they feel far safer when they know the honest people have no way to protect themselves.

[kbasa]

Lastly, the perpatrator in this case was here on a student visa. I would have to say he brought his barbarity to our soil. Just MHO.

Actually, he was a permanent resident alien and had gone to high school in VA and had lived here for a number of years.

[FatChance]

The Virginia Legislature tried to pass a law that would allow professors and students with concealed weapon permits to carry their weapons on college campuses but it was defeated. Wonder how many lives might have been saved if the professor who was killed after he held the door closed while his students jumped out of the window if he had been able to return the fire of the killer? The killer at the Appalachian School of law was held by another student who was a retired police officer who retrieved his weapon from his vehicle. The crooks always find a way to get guns and they feel far safer when they know the honest people have no way to protect themselves.
+1

[EastKy]

Very sad. Times are changing for the worst, it seems.

[mandypants]

A very dear friend from home is studying for her PhD in chemistry at VT. I called yesterday to check on her and she is fine. She asked that we all remember the VT community in our prayers.

We were students in Paducah, Kentucky when the Heath High School shooting happened. This makes the second school shooting she has endured.

Things might be getting worse, but they have always been bad.

Rest in peace.

[screwtop]

Actually, he was a permanent resident alien and had gone to high school in VA and had lived here for a number of years.

I stand corrected on that one then, Dave. Thanks. That's what the media had reported early on.

Anyway, what's a "permanent resident alien"?. I wonder if the guy was a green card holder or something like that and had applied for citizenship? (hence here legally?):dunno

Other reports indicate there was a receipt for the 9mm handgun in bag he was carrying. Seems odd that the guy could have legally purchased a firearm? Time will tell.

[tdomek]

Shades of Gang Lu at the University of Iowa, 11/1/1991. 6 dead, including the shooter, one paralyzed and disfigured for life. He had specific targets, left a letter detailing his motivations. I was traveling near Iowa City at the time of the shootings, and the live coverage of the tragedy on the radio was chilling.

My thoughts and prayers go out to the victim's families at Virginia Tech, and all those touched by this act of infamy.

God's Speed.

[jdmetzger]

While I don't wish to downplay the event, now we get to deal with the news going on and on and on and on and on over-analyzing everything about this. Nothing like going to cnn's website and getting that extra "how depressing is this" headline:

"Cell phones of dead still were ringing"

Great. That adds a lot to the story. Of COURSE that is going to happen; and I really needed to hear it. It adds to much to the facts of the story. I swear people thrive on this information. They talk about how terrible it is, but they can't stop watching the news for that little bit of extra information, that extra gory or sad detail of what happened. it serves no purpose. I'm waiting for one of the news anchors to win an oscar for "best supporting actor in a drama".

We don't have news reporting anymore. Now it's some sick form of entertainment for people, and the news corporations play to that. Now every time something happens there is theme music, special graphics, some sort of special heading they flash on the screen. "Tragedy: day 2". They get their overhead helicopter shots of empty buildings and get excited seeing a police cruiser go by. Nevermind the guy is probably heading home for the day. They'll talk to several million "experts" about every topic they can think of: gun control advocate, SWAT specialists, psychologists, doctors, lawyers, the school janitor, a guy who replaced a floor tile at the school 8 years ago, the window installers, the window washers, the lawncare company, and maybe a student or two. Great. Thanks for that. Of course, something else will eventually come up, and it will be the same thing all over again.

:banghead :banghead

[tourunigo]

I heard a crisis intervention therapist on the news this morning talking about grieving and how this process is so varied for us all. The horrific grief felt by a parent is profoundly different that that of another student and that so much different than what we can feel here. He did caution that a preoccupation with the ongoing details of a tragady often deepens grief and subsequently the ability to deal with that grief. However, I really don't know where the point is that we move from saddness and grief and into preoccupation.

I think that no one effort (ie all the 'control' efforts) can stop such maddness. We could speak of many influences but, as others have said, .... not here and not now. - Bob (reflecting)

[Bokrijder]

[QUOTE=SNC1923;200008]A horrific event. As a postsecondary teacher, I sometimes wonder if this will ever happen where I work. The town in which I live has more gun ownership per capita than any town in California.

The ready availability of guns in our country is the first thing I thought of when I heard this. I understand the literal interpretation of the Second Amendment and that people kill, not guns, but I must also reflect that this sort of thing rarely if ever happens in countries where there is a limited supply of firepower. - SNIP -




Yesterday evening, our local Public Television hosted a round table discussing the tragedy at VT. It was noted that our city, Baltimore, averages one murder per day. An obvious uncomfortable pause was taken by the panel. One VT tragedy every month, month after month. Guns play a part in some, as do knives. Knives are the weapon of choice in close quarters. A current rage seems to be home and occupant burning. Getting the wife and kids in addition to the target sends a real strong message.

I believe that the problem and the challenge goes much further than the weapon at hand.

Few civilized cultures share the perverse American obsession with violence as entertainment. Experts argue endlessly that there is no connection, but I wonder.
One thing is sure, Hollywood pumps a lot of money and support into the political system.

Motard

[PacWestGS]

Do yourselves a favor - Turn off your TV, Turn off your radio, Throw the morning edition of the newspaper in the trash without reading it.

Go for a ride,

Hug your kids, and tell them you love them,

Tell your SO you love them,

Read something else besides this thread for at least 72-hours.

This is a tragedy - many innocent people lost their lives and they can not be brought back. My heart goes out to their family and friends.

This is the act of delusional young man; there will be many more like him in the future.

As long as we chose to live in a dangerous, hateful, bigoted, racist and intolerant world; these things will happen, again and again.

There was "almost" nothing random about this - it was thought out, planned and carried out by an emotionally disturbed person.

Wait until it is carried out by a larger group of trained, motivated and well armed terrorists and there will be little the police can do.


Yesterday, the wolf came to school and the sheep were slaughtered in their pen, this is the result of a planned and well documented protocol since all the school shootings preceding this one.

There is no mystery in the American society that schools, hospitals, courthouses, banks and all other public and private institutions are the most weapons free zones in America. You stand a 100% chance of committing your heinous crimes against an un-armed society without fear of the unknown until the first uniformed police officers arrive on scene.

This is only the beginning of a much larger and more devastating disaster waiting to happen.

This was one – unhappy – person who was probably alone and deceived (targeted by ethnic or other reasons) by others whom he was close to. His unconscionable actions were probably preventable but no one around him intervened or understood the dangers he possessed. Now, it is too late.

Does any one here remember Charles J. Whitman?

In another 10-years people will not remember Cho Seung-Hui either.

[Kayseventyfive]

I believe that the problem and the challenge goes much further than the weapon at hand.

Few civilized cultures share the perverse American obsession with violence as entertainment. Experts argue endlessly that there is no connection, but I wonder.
One thing is sure, Hollywood pumps a lot of money and support into the political system.

Motard

You hit the nail on the head. Far too many of our young men have violent people as role models. Or turn to them in their fantasies or when they can no longer control their anger or pain. Even many of our leading sports figures exhibit thug-like behavior, on and off the screen. Between sports and entertainment, our youth is being bombarded with violence shown in a positive light.

[tourunigo]

[QUOTE=PacWestGS;200115]Do yourselves a favor - Turn off your TV, Turn off your radio, Throw the morning edition of the newspaper in the trash without reading it. etc...."

excellent response IMHO..... I'm out. Like I had engraved on a small pocket knife that I gave to my oldes son when he moved to B.C...... Keep Safe-Stay Vigilant Please do so. -Bob

[IAMBOB]

The ready availability of guns in our country is the first thing I thought of when I heard this. I understand the literal interpretation of the Second Amendment and that people kill, not guns, but I must also reflect that this sort of thing rarely if ever happens in countries where there is a limited supply of firepower.

.

You'd be wrong.. It's happened time and again in England, try googling Erfurt Germany.. even Russia.. and where the gun laws are the most strict..

The Mayor of Nagasaki Japan was wounded by a gunman in an apparent assassination attempt.

Where-ever the gun laws are most strict, the gun crimes are more violent, and more prevelant.

This was just this year:

Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker was happy to hear House bill 1572 was defeated. "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus."
The legislation was designed to prohibit public universities from making "rules or regulations limiting or abridging the ability of a student who possesses a valid concealed handgun permit ... from lawfully carrying a concealed handgun."

Someone needs to ask James Webb, if he or his assistant carry his gun when he is visiting College Campuses in his state.

[Bokrijder]

I think that no one effort (ie all the 'control' efforts) can stop such maddness. We could speak of many influences but, as others have said, .... not here and not now. - Bob (reflecting)[/QUOTE]

Bob,

I understand what you are saying, but I feel heartbreak and sympathy for all victims of yesterday. Our out pouring of sympathy for the Vt victims is appropriate. In understanding the breath of the issue, possibly this evening some one will touch a child with a bit more kindness, or communicate with a teenager with a bit more understanding.

Motard

[osbornk]

Many people are complaining that Va Tech didn't lock down the entire campus when the first murders happened. Besides the impossibility of reaching 26,000 students and nearly 10,000 employees, of which many were asleep, on the road via vehicle bicycle or walking to class, how would you do it? The 2,600 acres of the campus and the 36,000 people is larger than any city in Virginia west of Roanoke (about 250 miles of the state is west of Roanoke). Would a city anywhere that has a population of this size lock down their city because of the murder of two people where all indications are that it is a domestic dispute?

I saw where they interviewed one student who was sleeping on the floor above the first shooting and he was unaware anything had happened until after the second shooting because he was still asleep. A test message to over 30,000 cell phones at one time would crash the cell phone system (we live in the country down here and don't have big city capacity) and it would only be effective if they were turned on.

Others have suggested a siren should go off to alert students of an emergency. There were 3 bomb threats there in the last week alone. If they set off a siren every time there was a potential emergency, they would soon be ignored. When is the last time you even looked when a car alarm went off?

I don't know the solution to the problem and I suspect it is just something we will have to live with.

[crazydrummerdude]

Criminals don't care about laws. They find ways to get guns regardless of how "readily available" guns are... to you or me.

Laws keep guns out of LAW ABIDING peoples hands.

It's just more proof that you shouldn't rely on the police or administration to "protect" you.

[PacWestGS]

Many people are complaining that Va Tech didn't lock down the entire campus when the first murders happened.

SNIP

I don't know the solution to the problem and I suspect it is just something we will have to live with.

I don't have a solution either.

When and why in America or any country for that matter, do we overreact and often reach the wrong conclusion when something bad has happened? At first blush it was as they suspected a domestic crime. But in this case the shooter had other plans, plans that could not and would not have been considered by the police or the school administrators: At the time. 9/11 started out as an accidental plane crash – we now know where that ended (or hasn’t).

The policies put into place after Columbine and other school shootings have made it easier for multiple victims of a rampage like this. Lock down is not IMPO the right policy for such an incident. Eirc Rudoulph (sic) used it as his plan to inflict more damage and destruction during the clinic bombing (a second more powerful bomb placed where people would gather). Terrorist use it as a standard operating procedure to collect more victims at the scene, delayed attacks.

Departing the immediate location of the threat would serve one much more effectively; all weapons have a limited range and capacity. If there is a choice between dying by jumping from a window, or (possibly) dying by attacking or running through your attacker in the doorway to escape. I will chose running through and over my attacker. All the survivors of Belsin (Russia) escaped on their own.

Sitting, waiting, doing nothing, knowing the propensity of the shooter is to kill his victims often results in more dead bodies.

How do 30 young adults allow themselves to be shot to death? Fear and the wrong kind of hope. Hope the police will intervene before they are all dead.

That comes from our society at large - the Government/Police will protect us. Wrong. Our presence is often nothing more than a deterent for crime to happen. It is only by luck and circumstance that crooks are caught and apprehended.

I am holding my five-week old son between sentences here; I wonder what kind of future he has. It is up to me to teach him the right things to do in life, others he will have to learn on his own. I hope he and I are successful. That is all I can truly hope for.

I carry a gun for a living, I work in an unknown environment – everything and everyone is and is not a threat to me or our way of life. I have done so for a quarter century now. I carry a gun when off duty everywhere because I know that the wolf will attack when least prepared and in the safest of places for that is where he feels comfortable to attack and be successful.

Guns are tools, guns don’t kill people – bullets do. Tools of any kind can be used inappropriately or used to defend ones-self. But the system to allow that is broken by the people who are trusted to be there when they cannot. The people who make the laws violate them and/or have paid armed protection. Think about that for a minute.

Run, run away and keep running until you are safe. It is very difficult to hit a moving target with any firearm. You are not dead just because you got shot, you are dead if you do nothing and get shot at close range in the head.

JMHO

Russ (Sheepdog)

[osbornk]

Think about it. The killer planned what he was going to do because he had chains to chain the police out. They were the only people on campus that were allowed to carry a weapon. Since he knew anyone in the buildings couldn't legally carry a weapon and he had one, it was like shooting fish in a barrel. He felt secure enough to calmly empty his weapon and reload. He knew he could do a considerable amount of damage before the was caught. He knew he was going to die (like the homicide bombers) so his only goal was to kill as many people as possible.

[StevieWonder]

This was one – unhappy – person who was probably alone and deceived (targeted by ethnic or other reasons) by others whom he was close to. His unconscionable actions were probably preventable but no one around him intervened or understood the dangers he possessed. Now, it is too late.


PLEASE, let's not make excuses for people who don't feel fulfilled and decide to murder innocents to compensate.

Actually, in today's world of "personal privacy at all costs", we have just witnessed the very real and very tragic cost of not being able to intervene. A professor at VT DID turn the student into the administration for macabre writings and other telltale signs. Privacy considerations forced them away.

Spock was wrong ... the needs of the many do not outweigh the privacy rights of a few.

[PacWestGS]

That was just a raw statement, oh, hell no, am I going to condone what this or any person who thinks killing innocent people thinks is revenge for some self-deflated ego.

I'm just saying there were probably signs written in big bold type face that this guy needed help, round the clock watching, and a severe ass wuppin before he went ballistic.

There are only 32 victims in this tragedy not 33.

[BMWDEAN]

You can read the latest about this event on the following. It is updated virtually every minute:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_massacre

[RandyB]

It's rare for me to publicly comment on weapons but here it is: A handgun is like your helmet. It's emergency equipment. You hope and pray you never need it, but when you do there is no substitute. I have some experience in this area. Against the law? So is murder. Especially mine.

Wait until the car bombs show up.

[wezul]

Anyone remember UT (Austin) 1966? Charles Whitman from the Bell Tower. Horrific. Lesson learned? Nope.

[StevieWonder]

A totally SAD statement ... I feel sorry for the shooter's family. They have a daughter at Princeton and I am sure will be haunted forever by what happened.

It's just so hard to grasp what can make a person so angry and so possessed to premeditate and execute a plan to do so much against so many.

[StevieWonder]

Anyone remember UT (Austin) 1966? Charles Whitman from the Bell Tower. Horrific. Lesson learned? Nope.

Actually my cousin was walking along Guadalupe St. that day. A young man about 6 ft away was shot and killed by Whitman.

[RandyB]

It's just so hard to grasp what can make a person so angry and so possessed to do premeditate and execute a plan to do so much against so many.

There is evil in this world. Unfortunately, we live in a time when it is excused, glossed over and in some cases glorified. A million excuses will be made for this guy's behavior and a million laws will be passed to protect people like him from people like us (That is not a typo.). It really comes down to two things: Some people are just bad and you are responsible for your own protection from them.

It truly is a tragedy. Let's hope we learn something from it.

[Rasbutan]

A totally SAD statement ... I feel sorry for the shooter's family. They have a daughter at Princeton and I am sure will be haunted forever by what happened.

It's just so hard to grasp what can make a person so angry and so possessed to do premeditate and execute a plan to do so much against so many.

Sounds like his parents tried to commit suicide.

[StevieWonder]

Wow ... I had not heard that. Just another tragedy heaped on top of a huge tragedy.

[BMWDEAN]

I am not a member of the National Rifle Association (NRA) and never have been.

In the ideal world, America would not be armed to the teeth with handguns and rifles. Given the chance and notwithstanding the Constitution, I would take away all those guns in America and melt them down. But this is not the ideal world, and there are, and will be, guns everywhere.

Armed police cannot be in every classroom on every campus and in every restaurant in the nation. Now we have the Virginia Tech massacre. In 1991 in Killeen, Texas, 23 people were murdered randomly in Luby's restaurant by another deranged gunman. It could happen again at any time on any campus or in any restaurant. If you don't think this is true, you are dreaming.

Imagine how different the outcome could have been in those cases if just one Virginia Tech student or one Luby's customer had a concealed weapon and knew how to use it.

[RandyB]

One Luby's customer did have one. She followed Texsux' law and locked it in her car. She watched as her parents were killed. She now speaks on behalf of gun ownership. Can't recall her name.

One day we will beat our swords into plowshares. But not yet.

[IAMBOB]

I am not a member of the National Rifle Association (NRA) and never have been.

In the ideal world, America would not be armed to the teeth with handguns and rifles. Given the chance and notwithstanding the Constitution, I would take away all those guns in America and melt them down. But this is not the ideal world, and there are, and will be, guns everywhere.

Armed police cannot be in every classroom on every campus and in every restaurant in the nation. Now we have the Virginia Tech massacre. In 1991 in Killeen, Texas, 23 people were murdered randomly in Luby's restaurant by another deranged gunman. It could happen again at any time on any campus or in any restaurant. If you don't think this is true, you are dreaming.

Imagine how different the outcome could have been in those cases if just one Virginia Tech student or one Luby's customer had a concealed weapon and knew how to use it.

How an armed citizen made a difference, luckily off campus parking (where they were allowed to have their guns) was close by.

http://www.uwire.com/content/topops012402002.html

And how CNN told the story..

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/01/16/law.school.shooting/

Armed citizens do make a difference, you'd just never know it by reading or watching the news.

[StevieWonder]

I'm just at a total loss to explain, even in twisted logic, the thought process that relieves pain, hurt, stress and whatever else that psychologically ails you by killing people that you don't know. Guns are not THE answer; you could accomplish the same thing by driving down a sidewalk somewhere at warp 5.

My wife is a nurse and the privacy features prevalent in today's medical, scholastic and corporate environments that are meant to protect people are a key factor in masking people who desperately need help and will not or cannot get it on their own. Her hospital has shut down its psych ward because it's financially unsupportable. Bottom line, if you have serious mental problems there is little to be done to force you into the care system until you either hurt yourself or others. In these cases the freedoms/rights of the few apparently outweigh the freedoms/rights of the many.

[SNC1923]

You'd be wrong.. It's happened time and again in England, try googling Erfurt Germany.. even Russia.. and where the gun laws are the most strict..

Thanks for pointing me to Google. As it turns out, I'm not wrong.

In a list of 42 of the world's most notorious school shootings, 29 have occurred here in one country. The remaining 13 have taken place in all other affected countries combined. To say that another way, the U.S. has endured nearly 70% of all noteworthy school shootings.

One of the many reasons for this is the ready availability of firearms. There are many other reasons as well. In the U.S. one in three women will be sexually assaulted in her lifetime. In some countries, rape is all but unheard of. Violence is becoming endemic here and there are far deeper issues than gun availability. And I'm not anti-gun, for whatever it's worth.

To use this tragedy for political grandstanding, as the governor of VA has suggested, is probably not appropriate; however, it is respectful of the victim's memories to analyze the possible causes for such a tragedy and to examine ways to prevent something like this from happening again.

Am I the only one who finds it bizarre that a school, of all places, needs to concentrate on safety as much as they do academics?

[jdmetzger]

It looks like the news is still crazy for this one. I went to CNN this morning and was unfortunately not surprised to see the top 7 headlines were all related to this. They also had "interactive maps" where you could "zoom in on key sites", discussion about gun laws, and all 4 "most popular" videos were related to this story.

I liked this editorial cartoon in the local paper:

http://www.jdmetzger.com/img/bilde.jpg

[osbornk]

"Instant experts" came on TV and said the second tragedy could have been prevented if there had been cameras monitoring the buildings at Tech. The killer went to the next dorm, killed the first two kids and returned to his room. He then changed clothes, put on a backpack and went to the second location. What good would a camera have been? It would have only shown 2 different looking students entering and/or exiting a dorm.

Also, have you thought about classmates you have or had? The description of the killer matches one of my classmates almost exactly and several more very closely. How many of our classmates had or has the potential of being a mass murderer?

[PacWestGS]

I am not a member of the National Rifle Association (NRA) and never have been.

In the ideal world, America would not be armed to the teeth with handguns and rifles. Given the chance and notwithstanding the Constitution, I would take away all those guns in America and melt them down. But this is not the ideal world, and there are, and will be, guns everywhere.

Armed police cannot be in every classroom on every campus and in every restaurant in the nation. Now we have the Virginia Tech massacre. In 1991 in Killeen, Texas, 23 people were murdered randomly in Luby's restaurant by another deranged gunman. It could happen again at any time on any campus or in any restaurant. If you don't think this is true, you are dreaming.

Imagine how different the outcome could have been in those cases if just one Virginia Tech student or one Luby's customer had a concealed weapon and knew how to use it.

I'm not dreaming. That is the reality I live in. Even though the odds are stacked favorablely for me (everyone in fact) to never be a part of something like those events in their lifetime.

The laws that have been created to protect have been used [misused] to provide a safe haven for those that would do evil.

It's not so much that good decent citizens (students, teachers, and administrators) could carry weapons in defense. It is the perception that others unknown to the attacker may defeat his plan and make him/her fail.

Recent mall shootings in Salt Lake City, and Tacoma give rise to the action taken by one armed citizen and one off duty police officer that once the shooter is challenged he retreated to safety and was subsequently arrested without causing further damages. Neither of these two (hero's) fired a shot, just their presence and ability to project the power of force intimidated the attacker. (There was one in North Carolina too but I don't remember the details - end relatively the same)

Our teachers and school administrators from K through Ph.d need to rethink the lessons learned from the past ten-years and start relying on those few that are willing to undergo the straines of choosing to provide that necessary protection for those who cannot or will not.

It is our culture - it is a violent one, and it's not going away. It was founded long before this. It was founded in the 1700's and has continued to grow checked and unchecked by lawmakers for two-hundred years. That is what the "Founding Father's" saw when they wrote the Second Amendment".

You don't arm everyone, you just don't prevent those who would choose to undergo that burden from their choice. It's a heavy burden but necessary in our society.

As always JMHO
YMMV

Russ

[PacWestGS]

Thanks for pointing me to Google. As it turns out, I'm not wrong.

In a list of 42 of the world's most notorious school shootings, 29 have occurred here in one country. The remaining 13 have taken place in all other affected countries combined. To say that another way, the U.S. has endured nearly 70% of all noteworthy school shootings.

One of the many reasons for this is the ready availability of firearms. There are many other reasons as well. In the U.S. one in three women will be sexually assaulted in her lifetime. In some countries, rape is all but unheard of. Violence is becoming endemic here and there are far deeper issues than gun availability. And I'm not anti-gun, for whatever it's worth.

To use this tragedy for political grandstanding, as the governor of VA has suggested, is probably not appropriate; however, it is respectful of the victim's memories to analyze the possible causes for such a tragedy and to examine ways to prevent something like this from happening again.

Am I the only one who finds it bizarre that a school, of all places, needs to concentrate on safety as much as they do academics?

Tom, that is a result of bad parenting, media saturation and the social ills of hatred and intolerance.

Adults whether they are parents or not are suppose to secure their firearms from accidental or intended misuse. They do not and their 12y/o takes one to school to settle one of the social ills.

Second, media saturation following each and every event (like this one) gorifies and glorifies the event. It raises the shooter to some mystical plane of eternity. A place in the record books. It's like getting the high score on a video game or arcade game. Each person or persons has to out do those that preceded him.

Hollywood will make a movie and people will pay money to see it, that's sick. But, that is our reality.

Social ills, I have no answer to how to fix this, religion and anti-religion and racial prejudice precede our history and may be unchangable.

Are we living in hell and Heaven awaits us, or is this paradise and we just end up in the grave. Six-feet under. :dunno

Russ

[kreinke]

I am going to hung my love ones and go for a ride.

What did they ever do to you to deserve hanging?:nono

[jdmetzger]

Oh a typo I must be thinking of death and destruction ? :laugh

Darn our society! See what it's doing to you? To US?!

:hide

[PacWestGS]

I've been taking my own advise. Yesterday I did go for a ride, I did hug (not hung) my wife and kid, and I have avoided the TV, papers, radio, and internet (other than this site/thread). Last night I turned on the local evening news to see what was happening in my neck of the woods but, it was still 24-hour coverage of blather and speculation. So I turned it off. I knida like the old days before instant news, when the facts were known, and Walter Cronkite simply said the news, as sad as it may be. The old days were better.

Today, on a happier side note, I did notice in the head lines that Billionair Clay Bennet (from Texas) is going to violate his lease agreement early and take his overpaid toys (the Sonics and Storm NBA/WNBA teams) somewhere else, because the State of Washington is not going to subsidize his over-paid athletes to make room for only 19K-50K fans (out of millions of residents) with tax payer money when we can't even pay our teachers, police and firefighters a decent salary. A victory for the voters-yeah! I hope they spend the money wisely on transportation, public services, and education. :thumb

Sorry for the hijack :type

I just get so damned depressed watching the world fall apart 24/7.

My sympathies and condolences go out to the families and those affected by all the events of the day. :cry

Life goes on...

I'm going for a ride now, work is finished for the week, two-days off :brad

[IAMBOB]

Thanks for pointing me to Google. As it turns out, I'm not wrong.



I stand by my original answer to your post. It doesn't "ever or rarely" happen anywhere else, it DOES happen other places.

Compare sizes of countries, Germany to the US.. England to the US.. it would make sense that any crime would be more prevelant here than there.

One school shooting in Germany, would equate percentage to poulation, to about 100 for our country.

The only difference being Germany has some of the strictest gun laws on the planet, yet they aren't void of gun crimes. Matter of fact the Terrorists made Germany one of their favorite places to hunt.. what a nice place to shoot up, where nobody else is armed.. the same could be said of England.. Terrorist were shooting that place up with impunity for decades. Russia, can a private citizen even own a gun there? There's been a couple of school shootings there.

[Motor31]

The problem is not the gun, it's the person or people if you will.

I don't mind if anyone is willing to abdicate their own rights. That's their choice and who am I to force them to keep them. I do object to others telling me I have to abdicate my own rights. One or even 1000 persons being stupid does not warrant punishing millions who did no wrong.

[BMWDEAN]

One Luby's customer did have one. She followed Texas's law and locked it in her car. She watched as her parents were killed. She now speaks on behalf of gun ownership. Can't recall her name.

You can read about the Texas 1991 Luby's massacre here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luby%27s_massacre) -- 23 dead.

Then there was the California 1984 McDonald's massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Ysidro_McDonald%27s_massacre) -- 21 dead.

I don't frequent restaurants as much as I used to, especially not in non-CCW states.

[RandyB]

I prefer the Mom and Pop food joints anyway. Better food and a built-in no rob policy. It's their money and they'll fight for it. I can't remember the last robbery of a private establishment near me.

A good reason to use the bank's drive thru as opposed to going in. Maybe we need a tactics thread....

The California shooting is instructive if you think the cops will protect you. The police marksman had the guy in his scope but a supervisor who was stuck in traffic denied permission to fire. Lack of initiative if you ask me. I love cops, even the one behind me with the lights going, but they can't be everywhere.

[SNC1923]

I stand by my original answer to your post. It doesn't "ever or rarely" happen anywhere else, it DOES happen other places.

Fair enough, Bob.

I'm sure we can both agree that wherever it happens, or with what frequency, or for what reason, it's REALLY a bummer.

[StevieWonder]

I just get so damned depressed watching the world fall apart 24/7.

See a mental health professional immediately! This could be the first sign!

(only half kidding :p )

[PacWestGS]

See a mental health professional immediately! This could be the first sign!

(only half kidding :p )

:rofl :ha























:hide :fart (I'm fine :nod )

[Bill Burke]

[QUOTE=PacWestGS;:hide :fart (I'm fine :nod )[/QUOTE]

Wait a minute. Are you fine because you farted, or fine because you're behind a wall? I wanna know, or else.

[PacWestGS]

Wait a minute. Are you fine because you farted, or fine because you're behind a wall? I wanna know, or else.

I don't know, my kid always smiles after he farts :brad But, I just had dinner so I'll have to let you know later. LOL

[GSJIHAD]

If you are really so touched by the mass death of your fellow citizens and humans than be prepared to be outraged everyday as soon as you get out of bed. Tomorrow, over 40 of your fellow citizens will be shot and killed. 109 will die in car accidents. Who knows the number that will die in Uniform ( I mean Military type uniforms not the fake type uniforms with 50 inch waist lines hiding behind oak trees and posing for the cameras while kids are being shot inside a building). 41,095 children will die of starvation across the globe tomorrow and in all probability 0 of your fellow citizens will be killed tomorrow in another mass shooting. So discuss it, try to figure out how to stop it from happening again, but don't pretend it is the most shocking loss of life going on today. A tragedy.....yes. Especially to those who lost loved ones. But for everyone in the country to come out and pretend that they are really some how connected by the tragedy is a little pretentious and fake.
I am sorry if I sound shallow and pissed. I am just so sick of the needles loss of life that happens everyday but draws no attention unless the News Networks decide for us that we should care.

Oh yea, one more thing. I hate seeing flags at half mast for this event outside of the area effected. Just this month (04/07) we have lost 65 military personnel in Iraq and will likely lose the same amount before the end of the month. However, I saw no flags at half mast for them before VT. Yet today I saw them everywhere. As callous as it might seem there is a difference between Heroes and victims. The deaths of either should be mourned but a flag at half mast should be reserved for only Heroes.
Cheers

[kreinke]

If you are really so touched by the mass death of your fellow citizens and humans than be prepared to be outraged everyday as soon as you get out of bed. ....................... Who knows the number that will die in Uniform ( I mean Military type uniforms not the fake type uniforms with 50 inch waist lines hiding behind oak trees and posing for the cameras while kids are being shot inside a building). ................................... But for everyone in the country to come out and pretend that they are really some how connected by the tragedy is a little pretentious and fake.
I am sorry if I sound shallow and pissed. I am just so sick of the needles loss of life that happens everyday but draws no attention unless the News Networks decide for us that we should care.

Oh yea, one more thing. I hate seeing flags at half mast for this event outside of the area effected. Just this month (04/07) we have lost 65 military personnel in Iraq and will likely lose the same amount before the end of the month. However, I saw no flags at half mast for them before VT. Yet today I saw them everywhere. As callous as it might seem there is a difference between Heroes and victims. The deaths of either should be mourned but a flag at half mast should be reserved for only Heroes.
Cheers

Wow! Way to come out and say what everyone was wanting to say but was afraid to say. I guess I was a little offended watching the news coverage and seeing all those cops with their M16's AR15's and Bushmasters (methinks) hiding behind their cars and no one storming the building.

Even more disturbing was the fact that the only hero of the day was this man (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article1665503.ece) who decided to actually do something while perfectly able-bodied 20-somethings were hiding under tables and jumping out windows and armed officers were, as you say, hiding behind trees talking on cell phones.

I've seen several students and people from "man on the street" interviews saying "I don't know what I would have done in that situation." WTF?

Here's what I can tell you. (My wife and I talked about this last night.) We both if we were in that room would have tried to take that clown out*. No we are not athletes or body builders. Guess what. Operating a padlock and chain takes two hands which meant he would have had both firearms holstered at that point. I refuse to believe that a room of dozens of people just watched this guy lock the doors.One of the students played dead while he watched this guy change clips(!?!)

*By "taking him out" a person doesn't even have to run at the person screaming Hollywood style yelling "Go on without me!." Ferchrissakes they're in a lecture hall. Didn't anyone have some hardcover books tho wheel at him? Chairs, thermos bottles, napsacks? Even a Motorola Razr has enough mass that it could leave a goose egg if flung at someone like a throwing star. Are you going to tell me that no one had a cell phone? Any one of these items could have been IPD's (improvised projectile devices) and flung at this clown and at least distracted him enough to miss a person or two.

We're the kind of people that still stop to pick up occasional hitchhikers and help people change tires. That's just who we are. I volunteer one day per week at my kid's grade school helping troubled kids with their homework.


Before I get flamed by any LEO's yes, I understand the Incident Command System and procedures. I'm trained as one myself as far as my HAZMAT training. But as GSJIHAD so poignantly stated, where were all the heroes ala Flight 93?

Before I get flamed by any VT victims, families, or friends, I'm NOT saying these people were cowards. I just believe that in this world we as a society are conditioning our kids to be such "sheeple" that when presented with a situation "duck and cover" seems to be the first line of defense instead of "fight back and eliminate the threat."

Want more proof that America's getting soft? Watch the "heroes" in this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-azf1DJVU8) step in and take action while some fat fuggin' off duty Chicago cop kicks the crap out of a 110 pound bartender. They just sit at the bar sippin' their beer. I don't know what you guys would have done but that a--hole would have ad a barstool, bottle, or something broken over his apparently empty cranium if I was at that bar.

So, Mr. American Citizen (lib or conserv, "red or blue"). Ask yourself. What's more disturbing? The shooting or the fact that so many watched it happen and did nothing?

[kreinke]

I forgot about this one. (http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=506457) There are some heroes left. The kid came into school with a shotgun and really big chip on his shoulder. The school custodian took him on and grabbed the barrel of the shotgun. The Principal dies trying to wrestle the other gun away.

[IAMBOB]

Fair enough, Bob.

I'm sure we can both agree that wherever it happens, or with what frequency, or for what reason, it's REALLY a bummer.

Agreed..

[PacWestGS]

Latest statement from NBC News:

The pain suffered by the Virginia Tech community and indeed the entire country is immeasurable.

Upon receiving the materials from Cho Seung-Hui, NBC News took careful consideration in determining how the information should be distributed. We did not rush the material onto air, but instead consulted with local authorities, who have since publicly acknowledged our appropriate handling of the matter. Beginning this morning, we have limited our usage of the video across NBC News, including MSNBC, to no more than 10 percent of our airtime.

Our Standards and Policies chief reviewed all material before it was released. One of our most experienced correspondents, Pete Williams handled the reporting. We believe it provides some answers to the critical question, “why did this man carry out these awful murders?” The decision to run this video was reached by virtually every news organization in the world, as evidenced by coverage on television, on websites and in newspapers. We have covered this story – and our unique role in it – with extreme sensitivity, underscored by our devoted efforts to remember and honor the victims and heroes of this tragic incident. We are committed to nothing less.


Aaant, you failed common decency and public standards and choose to display (for ratings) sensationalism and grandstanding insted. The information contained in the package does not assist in the public awareness standards or to prevent follow-on attacks or threat to others.

This "Manifesto" is pointless rage of a sick and twisted mentally ill person which does not even answer your own question "why did this man carry out these awful murders". You failed to answer that and only lead to more speculation, and added to the pain the survivors and family of the victims have to endure at this time.

Just another example of how "out of touch the media is with public disclosure and a duty to report pertinent news stories that inform and protect".

How many more hours of "Promoting this loser to superstar status and infamy" will the networks devote to this guy?

How much longer will the "Privacy" of one be protected at the expense of many?

Why do I bother replying to this thread? :dunno

**** happens, sometimes you are a part of it, other times it will have no effect on your life!




GSJIHAD/Kreinke :thumb (it had to be said, thanks)

I too am against lowering the nation's flag to half-staff for this, it dishonors the sacrifice and noble deeds of the few who are honored with this practice.

[osbornk]

but don't pretend it is the most shocking loss of life going on today. A tragedy.....yes. Especially to those who lost loved ones. But for everyone in the country to come out and pretend that they are really some how connected by the tragedy is a little pretentious and fake.

It's the most shocking when you live under 70 miles away and you have friends and relatives who work there or go to school there. I waited until almost dark before I found out that they were not victims. I have a cousin whou taught and was close to the first girl killed. It was not the number killed but the not knowing who was killed and injured that was not traumatic. Almost everyone I know has a connection with Tech so we don't have to pretend.

[GSJIHAD]

It's the most shocking when you live under 70 miles away and you have friends and relatives who work there or go to school there. I waited until almost dark before I found out that they were not victims. I have a cousin whou taught and was close to the first girl killed. It was not the number killed but the not knowing who was killed and injured that was not traumatic. Almost everyone I know has a connection with Tech so we don't have to pretend.


That was my point. All prayers and love go to you. I only live 61 miles from Columbine High, Co. I was here when that went down, I know how it feels.

[osbornk]

I think almost everyone in the country feels a sense of loss because it does hit them personally. Almost everyone has friends or relatives who are away at college somewhere. Virginia Tech is one of the least likely places in the country for something like this to happen. Since a very high percentage of college students were more likely to have been a target than the students at Virginia Tech, most citizens feel a loss of security and safety for their friends and families.

[Kayseventyfive]

I too am against lowering the nation's flag to half-staff for this, it dishonors the sacrifice and noble deeds of the few who are honored with this practice.

Unfortunately, the flag is lowered to half staff for politicians also. Many of them have led quite non-heroic lives, with sacrifice and noble deeds notably absent.

We need to have some sort of standard for lowering the flag. Is honoring a hero the same as mourning a loss? Then, whose loss shall we mourn?
.

[OfficerImpersonator]

As far as being referred to psychiatric counseling, would you prefer every rotation going to Iraq to have new troops? Everybody gets sent to counseling. Quite a few are pretty stressed and go back anyway. They ask to. Me included and I throw up about every third time I think about going back. THREE soldiers have "snapped" upon return. Two of them were support troops who came home to find someone else keeping their side of the bed warm. Third one I don't know about. Most are so fed up with violence they never want to see it again.

I'm particularly thinking of people who have had encounters with law enforcement, and a byproduct of that encounter was a court ordered mental health evaluation that resulted in a diagnosis of a specific anti-social personality disorder (but again, not limited just to a specific diagnosis of ASPD). That's exactly the situation with the VT shooter.

I don't think lashing out against an unfaithful spouse and their lover is the same as massive violence against 32 strangers.

[Visian]

All First and Second Amendment discussion has been moved to this thread. (http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showthread.php?t=16963)

Please limit discussion here to the VT massacre, and thank you for showing respect for the people who lost their lives, and their families.

Thanks.

Ian