Excessive speeding

[DesertRider]

In the August issue of <i>BMW Owners News</i> Sandy Cohen complained about the problem of "loud pipes" and berated the AMA for not doing enough about it. This prompted a response in the October issue by Rick Gray, Chairman of the AMA Board of Directors, and among other things he stated that BMW owners find it very easy to condem the problem of noise while ignoring a different problem in our own ranks. In Gray's words:

"... I don't accept that Sandy's condescension will work to solve the problem of excessive noise. In fact, it's rather easy to take such a stance in BMW circles; perhaps Sandy could educate us on a more troubling problem in those circles such as excessive speeds. I doubt she would be taking the Duh approach on that one."

Which got me to thinking: Is Gray correct? Is excessive speeding an endemic problem among BMW riders? Do we routinely behave as if speed limits don't apply to us? Do we often travel at speeds that police and the public would consider reckless? If so, why do we do that? What effect does it have on safety (ours and others)? How does it affect the public perception of motorcycling?

[Rad]

Originally posted by DesertRider
Is excessive speeding an endemic problem among BMW riders?

:burnout
I don't know any BMW riders that ride the speed limit, or even close to it when conditions allow.

BTW, I also own a Norton and KTM and don’t know any of those respective riders that ride any different than the BMW folks.

[kbasa]

Most of the guys I ride with like to haul ass.

Out in the desert, with no enforcement to speak of, 10 mile visibility and virtually no traffic you can easily run 100mph and most of the guys I know do exactly that.

Back east, most of the folks I rode with kept it within 20.

It seems to depend on where you are as to how you'll ride.

In my truck, I drive like an old lady.

:dunno

[DarrylRi]

Originally posted by DesertRider
Is excessive speeding an endemic problem among BMW riders?

I know what speeding is... but what makes it excessive?

When touring or riding the slab, I generally do whatever the traffic is doing plus a little bit. In California it's a good idea to keep it under 20 over the limit, as this will allow you to take traffic school should you get a citation. Note that these two rules of thumb can easily come into conflict on the freeways in the big metro areas.

I'm always trying to balance what's fun with what's safe and what's good for my license. Therefore, I don't speed in town or through school zones. That's where the people are and that's where the police are.

In the end, I'd have to say, however, that for highway and byway riding, I pretty much use the speed limit sign as a suggested lower limit.

[DesertRider]

Originally posted by Blue Knight The big differences were that the roads were made for high speed and were maintained accordingly and that the drivers sharing the road were mindfull of fast bikes and cars.

Originally posted by KBasa Out in the desert, with no enforcement to speak of, 10 mile visibility and virtually no traffic you can easily run 100mph and most of the guys I know do exactly that.

I live in the aforementioned desert and people do indeed do some breathtaking speeds on desert roads sometimes. But Mike is right -- it's not the <i>autobahn</i>, and though you can often get away with it, the truth is desert roads really are not meant for speeds of 100+. They are mostly open-access, unfenced roads, where cars, farm vehicles, and desert critters can suddenly appear on the road. Having had countless critters and more than a few vehicles suddenly materialize in front of me on these roads, I cannot bring myself to do very high speeds on these roads -- it just looks too much like Russian roulette.

I've had one deer strike (where the deer popped out of the bushes and hit the _side_ of my small pickup), nearly hit another that was hit by the car next to me, nearly collided with an elk, dodged more coyotes than I can name, etc. Yet I see and talk with people who ride down those roads as if they were on the Mulsanne Straight. Either they're unaware of the risks, or they're willing to take risks far greater than I'm willing to take.

[oldcarkook]

"If it's worth doing...it's worth doing to excess" Those were words of my buddy Scott Nathan, an attorney who had a knack for coming up with appropriate phrases at appropriate times.

I think Kbasa is spot on: depends on where you are. The "problem" for the average BMW owner is that we are riding a machine that is extremely well balanced, nimble, and quiet. Beemers were not designed for riding up and down the Las Vegas strip or running through town with open pipes. No fun there.

You can crank just about any Beemer of recent vintage to 100 without even blinking. You can scream around a cloverleaf at 60 and feel like you are on rails. You can spark up a smoke at 60 with the windscreen in the upright position on most RTs. This is in all in sharp contrast to the big American V-twin owners. I think that it's not really limited to Beemers since the average crotch rocket re-writes the definition of balanced at 120 mph too.

Soooo....I wonder if really the issue is Beemer owners speeding all the time, or if we are just the retalliatory target of Rick Gray responding to Ms. Cohen's affront of his beloved Harleyheads? I think more sport bikes exceed speed limits than V-twins in my observations.

Big American V-twins can't hold a torch to the performance of European and Japanese bikes. The big V-twin makes a lot of noise, but can they corner and balance like their European and Japanese counterparts? NFW.

So in response to Mr. Gray's snipe I invoke a good old saying from Texas on the noise issue; "Big Hat - no cattle" Noise is one thing, but let's see who's waiting for who at the top of the mountain road.

Giddy up.

[Rad]

I have my “rules of engagement” that I try to live by.
• Must be good weather
• Must be two lane
• Must be rural
• Must be no traffic or pedestrians
• Pavement must be good
• Sight lines must be good (see all the way through the turn, etc)
• I’m not ride’n in a group
• No mail boxes or driveways along the road

These rules help me keep my love of speed in check and myself and everybody else safe.

My speed fix solution the last few years has been to ride off road. 40MPH in the right nasty sections can be more fun than any speed on the street.

[DesertRider]

Originally posted by oldcarkook
So in response to Mr. Gray's snipe I invoke a good old saying from Texas on the noise issue; "Big Hat - no cattle" Noise is one thing, but let's see who's waiting for who at the top of the mountain road.

Giddy up.

As I read it, I think that is <i>exactly</i> Mr. Gray's point: That just as many Harley riders turn a blind eye to their antisocial behavior (loud pipes), rationalize it and even brag about it, many Beemer riders likewise excuse, rationalize, and even brag about ours (way-over-the-norm speeding).

[MarkF]

I try to keep it within 15-20 over the limit but admit that I've come close to 100 for a considerable distance while trying to make up time on the slab.

I also have ridden like an idiot at times and have a couple tickets to show it. I was over the line.

I agree that the big twin cruisers can't corner or handle like Euro or Jap Sportbikes but have seen many screaming down the road.

It's not the problem that people think. As long as you only pass were appropriate and don't weave thru traffic exceeding the limit by 10, 15 or 20 is not excessive in my opinion when weather and road conditions permit!

MarkF

[russbritt]

I WAS buzzing along at about 75 in a 55 on a back country road and thought I was having fun. Then out of nowear came a guy hanging on to high bars on a Harley blew by at about a hundred. He was having lots of fun! I don`t thing any one brand of biker speeds, but nothing drives me crazer when i`m in my cage than following a biker creeping along holding up traffic.

[The_Veg]

I've done some pretty egregious speeding in my time, but that isn't what I get caught doing. I've been caught on the bike ONCE. Doing 76 in a 65 I think. But in my last job I traveled every week usually by road in rented Dodges and always only went with the flow, whatever speed everybody else did. And I always was the one that got picked (even when I was getting passed!). My insurance is now $287.32 a month. I'm not kidding.

[kbasa]

If you're going to speed, you need to be prepared to pay the consequences.

Last Summer - Highway 50, 3 miles east of Eureka, NV

http://kbasa.smugmug.com/photos/393625-M-2.jpg

[widebmw]

"3 miles east of Eureka, NV"
I could have told you that.
I think you should have slowed down at 7 miles.:brow

[kbasa]

Originally posted by widebmw
"3 miles east of Eureka, NV"
I could have told you that.
I think you should have slowed down at 7 miles.:brow

Actually, it was 3 miles west of Eureka. At 7 miles out, I was running a bit faster than the 92mph he clocked me at.

:yow

My bad. He wrote me for 80 in a 70, instead of 92 in a 55. $75. I got off extraordinarily easy on that one.

[DesertRider]

Originally posted by Blue Knight
The question that's still need to be answered and understood, is why we have speed limits.


Nevada didn't used to have speed limits on open highways, instead you were supposed to maintain a safe and prudent speed. That seems appropriate, but I always wondered how a police officer could document that you were exceeding what has "safe and prudent." It would seem you could be at the mercy of whatever a cop would say because the judgement is purely subjective.

[DarrylRi]

Well, that's pretty much what happened in Montana. They had "safe and prudent" limits, which were apparently about 90mph on I-90. Until some guy doing 120++ challenged the law and won as it was too vague. Now the limit is 75mph.

[DesertRider]

Originally posted by Blue Knight And many of those bad laws were written as a result of our lack of restraint.


Well said, Mike. Best to apply self-control so it doesn't trigger government control.

[DarrylRi]

I guess I disagree with Rick Gray's assertion that we will be specifically penalized because we speed, because speeding is something that the general public sees happening with every kind of vehicle, and so motorcycles are not particularly singled out.

Loud pipes are something that the general public almost always associates just with motorcycles, and being as we're only about 1% of the motoring public, we can easily be legislated against. A similar case exists with the current Xtreme riding clubs that do stunts on metro area freeways. That's going to be held against us all.

But I also think Gray made that point more because of Sandy Cohen's response than because he sees it as particularly valid. The thing about the noise issue is that (beware, sweeping generalities ahead) BMW riders, in general, are already aware of the problem and don't participate in it. Gray wants all of bikerdom to get behind him and help reach a compromise solution. But it's a compromise that most cagers aren't aware of and aren't likely to agree to, should they ever become aware of it.

And as has been stated, loud pipes are the abortion issue of motorcycling, so there's not likely to be a compromise that even we agree about. Most of us can agree that some motors make a great sound, but I think that a significant number of us don't want to live next door to someone with a great sounding motor.

Rationality is not going to work here, either. People who knowingly move into houses near airports routinely try to shut down those airports because of the noise. LAX had to buy out, condemn, and bulldoze an entire development that was built under their flight path in order to get rid of the noise suits.

I have to admit that I don't understand the details of why measuring noise and ticketing for it is so troublesome. I read in the motorcycle press that all the sound rules can be invalidated by a clever attorney, but I don't understand why that is.

I think the only way out of this is to write a model sound law that can't be easily avoided and can be easily applied. That way those annoying cars that go thumpa-thumpa-thumpa down the road can be cited as well. (Those darn kids! The music they listen to today is just noise!) ;-)

[Gizmo]

Originally posted by KBasa
If you're going to speed, you need to be prepared to pay the consequences.

Last Summer - Highway 50, 3 miles east of Eureka, NV

http://kbasa.smugmug.com/photos/393625-M-2.jpg

Geez KBASA you must be one unlucky dude, I didn't think cops ever patrolled 50 in Nevada? What did the Leo think of having his portrait made?

[widebmw]

Way back (up to 1974 I think) it was "reasonable and prudent"
Montana tried that a few years ago until a lawyer got a ticket.
Now they have a speed limit.
Highway Patrol in Northern Nevada.
Reno, Carson City to Frenley and Fallon - yes , many sometimes.
Hwy 50 to Austin, Eureka, Ely. When you get 10 to 15 miles from town slow down. In town don't speed. In between you seldom see them. But they do travel between towns.
They have no trees or bushes to hide behind so you can see them.

[widebmw]

You can speed if you like but there is no motorcycle class.
See the Silver State Classic.
http://www.silverstateclassic.com/

[kbasa]

Originally posted by Gizmo
Geez KBASA you must be one unlucky dude, I didn't think cops ever patrolled 50 in Nevada? What did the Leo think of having his portrait made?

I have to say it was, all in all, a pretty interesting stop.

I came around the corner and was rolling it off a bit when the Valentine 1 just completely lit up. So I nailed the brakes and pulled over. I was stopped and watched the cop trying to get the Crown Vic down to turn around. I flipped up my visor, took off my sunglasses and put my hands back on the bags while I sat on the bike.

He comes up next to me, "92. You have license and registration".

"Sure, they're under the seat."

"OK. Why don't you get them out."

I get off the bike and go around to the back to unlock the seat and get the stuff out.

I'm bent over fiddling with the lock when he says, "That was in a 55 zone, you know."

I slump. "NO!" and hand him the registration and my license.

Another cop shows up, this one a local and he wanders over to talk with the Highway Patrolman that pulled me over. The fan on the Crown Vic is cycling off and on in the heat, so I can't hear what they say. Instead, I kick rocks on the verge of the road and try and calculate exactly what this is going to cost me in time and cash. I'm on an SS1K run and trying to get to Glenwood Springs. It's 11am and I've got about 500 miles on in the 7 and a half hours I've been on the road.

The other cop takes off, presumably to look for more guys like me. The trooper gets out of the car and hands me the ticket.

"I wrote you for 80 in a 70, which is a $75 fine. I really want you to slow down when you come into town, OK?"

"No problem, officer. I try and keep it down in city limits. Sorry I missed the 55 sign back there. I saw the sign for town and was slowing down."

He laughs. I take this as a good sign.

"How long have you been on the road today to get here from San Francisco?"

"I left at 4:30 this morning."

"Wow, you're making good....I don't want to know." He starts to snicker.

"Where are you headed?"

"I'm going to Glenwood Springs, CO tonight."

He starts shaking his head.

"Do you mind if I take your picture?"

He snorts. "No problem. This isn't going to wind up on the internet or anything is it?"

"No. No. Just for some of my friends."

"OK, but I don't smile." He's grinning pretty well at the prospect of some nutcase with cows on his helmet heading for Colorado in one day.

"Where do you want me to stand?"

"How 'bout over here by your cruiser?"

He's got a big smile at the whole situation. I tell him to get ready and he goes poker faced and I take the picture.

"I'll wait here so you don't get creamed by an RV getting back on the road."

"Hey man, thanks for the picture."

"You bet, now slow down."

I head back out and don't really pour the coals on until I get to Utah.

http://kbasa.smugmug.com/photos/393627-M-1.jpg

OK, so I was going fast. Traffic was light and I wasn't just out acting like a moron. He cut me some slack.

I'm thankful.

[Cliffy777]

The part of riding I most enjoy is the 0-70 mph section. When I ride on a slab (very rare as I don't enjoy it much) I probably do a little faster than traffic which around Michigan is 75-80 in the 70 mph areas. Metro Detroit rachets that up 5-10 mph - if you do 80 around Detroit and the burbs, you better stay in the right hand lane!
There are a couple of favorite roads where I have taken it up to 100 or more, but not for very long and only when the road is clear and conditions ideal. IMHO the big danger on my beloved two laners is more from critters than vehicles. I have had too many close calls with deer to go ripping at 100 mph plus for very long. And I would not want to hit a big ass coon or possum for that matter.
I try not to hot dog around traffic, because you never know what the hell the other guy might do. I could be all wet, but it seems if we were going to peg a group for high speed high jinx it might be the crotch rocket crew. Of course they look fast even when they are obeying the law.
I don't like the fines, points and increased premiums that accompany speeding tickets neither!
(somebody shut me up - will ya?)

[Cliffy777]

Man you give the full report - even snap pics of the cops who ticket you.
Looking at your shot down the desert highway makes me realize how limited the sight distance is on most of the roads I love around here.
It would be hard riding through Utah at the posted speed (or 20 or so above it), but I would probably be the dude doing it.
The last time I got pulled over it was in my car. I was driving a red Thunderbird with the Turbo (geee, why do the cops want to stop THAT car alla time???). I was 15 over in a construction zone which in Michigan translates into DOUBLE the fine. I admitted my guilt, got my paper work quick - was respectful without being a bootlicker and was let off.
God bless that officer!

[Rad]

Originally posted by DarrylRi
Well, that's pretty much what happened in Montana. They had "safe and prudent" limits,

My first time on my bike up in Montana I was all excited to be able to just fly on the "safe and Prudent" roads.

I was shocked; the locals did not drive those rural roads as fast as I thought they would...Way to many big critters to hit.

[kbasa]

Originally posted by Rad
My first time on my bike up in Montana I was all excited to be able to just fly on the "safe and Prudent" roads.

I was shocked; the locals did not drive those rural roads as fast as I thought they would...Way to many big critters to hit.

I was in Missoula when they didn't have a numerical limit.

One of the state troopers explained the limits to us this way:

"90mph on a road with good visiblity in clear weather is prudent and proper."

"70mph going down a steep hill in the rain while talking on your cellphone is not prudent."

"60mph after dark is not prudent. There's too many big hairy things to hit."

dave

[Cliffy777]

Originally posted by DarrylRi
I have to admit that I don't understand the details of why measuring noise and ticketing for it is so troublesome. I read in the motorcycle press that all the sound rules can be invalidated by a clever attorney, but I don't understand why that is.


Clever attorneys can get drunk people off, set murderers free and generally screw up laws that look like good common sense to us regular folks so it should not be a surprise that they can find a loophole to wriggle through in a noise ordinance!

[DarrylRi]

Originally posted by Cliffy777
Clever attorneys can get drunk people off, set murderers free and generally screw up laws that look like good common sense to us regular folks so it should not be a surprise that they can find a loophole to wriggle through in a noise ordinance!
Yes, that's true, and to a certain extent I'm sure it will always be possible for some people to get away with murder, or at least, drunk driving.

However, it has become generally much more difficult and expensive in the last 10 years to get away with drunk driving. Most people now get sanctioned on their first DUI in some form.

Laws like those in Daytona, FL and Jerome, AZ, where the lack of an EPA stamp in the pipe is prima facie evidence that you're violating their sound ordinance picks up more than just the loud pipes people. I have several vintage bikes with repro mufflers, and my R90S muffler has no EPA imprint, even though it's an original part. Some aftermarket pipes are not particularly loud, too, but they won't come with an EPA mark, either.

[DesertRider]

Originally posted by DarrylRi I have to admit that I don't understand the details of why measuring noise and ticketing for it is so troublesome. I read in the motorcycle press that all the sound rules can be invalidated by a clever attorney, but I don't understand why that is.

To measure exhaust noise accurately you need to have sound-measuring equipment, it has to be accurate and calibrated, and the measurement has to be done according to proper procedure, which includes measuring in an environment where other noise will not intrude. That pretty much excludes doing a roadside check, which means that to bust someone you'd have to pull him over, then take him somewhere where the test can be done. Most people, including most cops, would consider that way too much trouble and expense. And even then the test could still be challenged.

I sympathize with what Jerome, Arizona has done, requiring EPA stamps on exhaust pipes or you are presumed in violation. Jerome is a tiny but very picturesque town of winding little streets and on weekends it is absolutely overrun with motorcycles, mostly Harleys. Jerome does not have the resources of a big city, but they had to do <i>something</i> else the roar of 10,000 uncorked Harleys every weekend would make the place unlivable for anyone else. Their solution is far from perfect, but I think it's reasonable given their circumstances.

I think that a very simple solution is not to do noise measurements, but to check if the pipe has baffles installed. (A pipe can have some kind of baffle and still be loud, but if it doesn't have any baffles it's <i>definitely</i> too loud and undoubtedly illegal.) Many exhaust systems come with baffles that are advertised as "easily removed," so they may be OK when sold, but the buyer immediately removes the baffles and renders the system way over the noise limit. Even on EPA-approved pipes it's easy to cut or drill out the baffles. So, a simple solution: Give cops a simple hardwood stick that they can poke into the exhaust pipe: If it can be poked all the way down without encountering a baffle, bust'em and give them a fix-it ticket.

Of course what a lot of people will do is go home, put the stock pipe back on, and go have an inspection to get their fix-it ticket cleared. Then as soon as they get home they'll put the noisy pipe back on. Around here, at least, that's standard practice with H-D "racing only" performance kits (and at least some non-Harleys as well): When it's time for their emissions test, down to the dealer they go to have the bike returned to stock, off to get the test done, back to the dealer to have the kit put back on, and they're good for another couple of years. (Last time I had a smog test done I was in line behind an H-D rider who explained that was exactly what he was doing.) So for noise enforcement we'd need a progressive system: First time, give'em a fix-it ticket. Second time, a stiff fine. Third time, impound the bike on the spot and hav'em pay to get it back.

So it seems that with a simple hardwood dowel and a progressive penalty structure it would be easy to make a big dent in the noise problem without affecting anyone who is not blatantly flouting the law (and common decency as well). Won't catch all of them, but will catch many, including all of the worst offenders.

[The_Veg]

Yeah Cliffy Turbos are great for geting into trouble with! :bliss
I have one (VW), but it's a sleeper in German racing silver. Lucky for me there were no fuzz out in the ten-mile visual radius I had one day on TX 176 between Big Spring and Andrews. Cruised with pedal to the metal, just hold it down and see what happens. This highway is about as smooth as a table top and has about three very subtle curves in 60 miles. I was able to cruise at a sustained 130 (the car's chip limited it to that at 1500 RPM below redline in 5th).
I find that the car is not so much of a sleeper when I'm going a measly ten-over though.

[username]

...to the original question...

i rode today (it was almost 80 degrees, i *had* to.) and i sped. speeded? spode? i went over the speed limit. i was out by myself, the turns were nice, and i felt good, so i went a little fast. maybe 10-15 over most of the time, and 20 on the straights.

so i did that. the cops didnt catch me. i consider it a good ride. now let's say i go out and i do that, oh, every day for the last two weeks like i did. :) each time i do it, am i causing bad relations with motorists? no. in town i rode in what i call a predictable fashion, no sudden moves, etc.

now let's pretend i have a harley, with baddass loud pipes that i installed to save my life. let's say i rode every day for the last two weeks in my t-shirt and leather vest. and every day i rode the speed limit, but each time i pulled out of the garage to let my bike warm up, i woke up my neighbors. not my next door neighbors, ALL my freakin neighbors, because i have loud pipes. and lets say as i rode by apartment complexes, doing the posted speed limit, i set off car alarms. and let's say that as i cruised down main street, put-put-putzing along, little kids were covering their ears and scowling.

please tell me how the latter makes people like motorcycles?

and lastly, lets say i get in my suburban (i dont really have one) and i drive around for two weeks talking on the telephone, drifting from lane to lane, failing to use turn signals, etc. am i suddenly making friends *that* way?

let's face it, there are so many boneheads out there, speeders, loud bikes, cell phone talkers; driving every make model and style of car and bike. it isnt about harleys or bmws or suburbans. it's about people who don't think of others before they think of themselves. it's about people in their own little world who think their priorities are superior to others.

now having said that, i think speeding is the least disruptive and damaging to motorcycle relations. ahhhh, that feels good. beemer riders are superior! :D ;)

[DarrylRi]

Originally posted by DesertRider
To measure exhaust noise accurately you need to have sound-measuring equipment, it has to be accurate and calibrated, and the measurement has to be done according to proper procedure, which includes measuring in an environment where other noise will not intrude.
The first part, of course, also applies to tools that LEOs are already using with success: radar and laser. I don't understand the need to be in a soundproof area; just a differential circuit to remove background noise, like many telephones and microphones use.

[DarrylRi]

http://darryl.crafty-fox.com/mcpics/2002/daytona/P2250617med.jpg

[DesertRider]

Originally posted by username each time i do it, am i causing bad relations with motorists? no.

What if instead of riding 10 - 15 mph over the limit -- say, 80 in a 65 zone -- you were doing 115 mph through that 65 mph zone? Would that have a somewhat different effect on how other motorists see motorcyclists?

I don't think anyone cares too much if one rides 10, 15, or at times even 20 over the limit -- lots of cars do that too. But when they're doing 80 on the highway and a bike blows by them as if they were standing still, they do take notice. Of course not every BMW rider does that (I'm sure most don't), but when they do we often cheer them on and deem it a cool thing instead of condemning it as stupid.

I think that's what prompted Gray's comment -- that we often condone such behavior and, probably as a consequence, if one were to tally all the bikes that one finds exceeding 100 mph here and there, the ratio of Beemers to Harleys is probably 200 to 1. (And probably just as high for Japanese sport bikes, I suspect.)

[BradfordBenn]

Originally posted by DesertRider
To measure exhaust noise accurately you need to have sound-measuring equipment, it has to be accurate and calibrated, and the measurement has to be done according to proper procedure, which includes measuring in an environment where other noise will not intrude. That pretty much excludes doing a roadside check, which means that to bust someone you'd have to pull him over, then take him somewhere where the test can be done. Most people, including most cops, would consider that way too much trouble and expense. And even then the test could still be challenged.

Actually that is not entirely true. The most common rule is that the sound shall not be more than 85dB or XdB above ambient level; whichever is greater. Basically this means that if the area is already loud you are given some slack for making noise. So one does not need to be in an isolated area. Also sound energy is such that if the ambient level is 60dB of sound pressure level and the pipes are generating 99dB of sound pressure level the ambient level would now be ... 99dB of sound pressure level . (One dB of sound pressure level is the threshold of difference that a typical human can hear. It is a logarythmic ratio scale; each 3dB is doubling the energy.)

As to how difficult this testing is, well I can do calibrated, legally valid testing for approximately $5,000 of equipment and then a yearly calibration for about $120. It is a relatively simple process. The calibration needs to be done to ANSI standards. Two items need to be calibrated, the pistongraph (a small device that generates a known sound pressure level) and the sound pressure level meter. Most meters also have an output that can be connected to a data or audio recorder. So one simply places the pistongraph onto the meter and records its level and then takes the noise measurements. One has both the observed level and the recorded level. The recorded data is admissable in legal cases. All this stuff is small enough I can fit it in a tankbag.

To explain how I learned this stuff, I was hired to design a sound system by a major entertainment venue that was having complaints of noise from a rich neighborhood down the street. By changing the system design we were able to make the listening area louder by about 10dB and the complaint area about 80dB of sound pressure level; which most of the time was under the ambience.

Now the better way to go after noise levels is the OSHA rules that limits noise exposure by time... this rule works anywhere in the US. Pretty much 85dB of sound pressure level limits one to 8 hours, and it goes up to about 120dB of sound pressure level where it is about 15 minutes. These times are without protection.

[ian408]

Originally posted by BradfordBenn
To explain how I learned this stuff, I was hired to design a sound system by a major entertainment venue that was having complaints of noise from a rich neighborhood down the street. By changing the system design we were able to make the listening area louder by about 10dB and the complaint area about 80dB of sound pressure level; which most of the time was under the ambience.


Hmm. We had something like that down this-a-way. But I'd
rather have the noise than the burning grass any day of the
week :):

Kbasa, your speeding in NV reminds me that when ever you
see one of those "no hitchhiking" signs, you should slow down.
I got tagged by a trooper who was up one of the prison
driveways. Cost me a whooping $12. He was pretty cool about
the whole thing too. And I was going a little faster than 90...
He wrote me for just over the limit. I don't have any pictures
though...

Ian

[GregInBoulder]

I've been and out of Montana over the last 20 years. Before the feds got their panites in a knot, speeding tickets were $5, paid to the trooper at the time of infraction. Now this became a big legend, go to Montana, rip it up, only $5 !!! What the out-of-staters didn't know was this was a locals only deal. For the rest of the world (non-Montanans) the law was "reasonable and prudent". I found this an equitable deal. Locals know the roads, non-locals don't. Locals have no money, non-locals have credit cards.

Now I live in Colorado. A source of constant amazement is the number of cages that will pull over on a mountain road to let me pass. Go figure. I guess they are content to pick their own pace and let me find mine. I try my hardest not to scare them with blind curve moves and quick changes and it seems to work. I have yet to be stopped by the law.

[kbasa]

Originally posted by GregInBoulder
Now I live in Colorado. A source of constant amazement is the number of cages that will pull over on a mountain road to let me pass. Go figure. I guess they are content to pick their own pace and let me find mine. I try my hardest not to scare them with blind curve moves and quick changes and it seems to work. I have yet to be stopped by the law.

They do that here too. I've I'm making Pretty Good Time and catch someone on the backroads, a little patience and they'll pull over and let me by.

I saw that first in south Texas.

Quite civilized, don't you think?

[BradfordBenn]

'Nuf said

[kbasa]

Originally posted by Blue Knight
http://www.snipurl.com/break_wheelie

http://www.snipurl.com/fast_moto

Mike

Day-um!

[flash412]

Blue Knight asked:The question that's still need to be answered and understood, is why we have speed limits.To enhance REVENUE. They don't have much to do with public safety on the open road.

[The_Veg]

I agree Flash. I wonder how many public budgets would be in trouble if nobody sped for a year?

About those clips Blue Knight posted: Whoooa dude, radical stoppies!

[lorazepam]

they would make up for it in confiscated homes, bank accounts, and whatever else they can take from the citizens in the name of the war on drugs and the war on terror.

[Gizmo]

Originally posted by The Veg
I agree Flash. I wonder how many public budgets would be in trouble if nobody sped for a year?

About those clips Blue Knight posted: Whoooa dude, radical stoppies!

So true, it is a freakin joke. According to some highway engineers most roads are designed to handle speeds at least 15 mph over current posted speeds. All done because of concern for public safety, but yet how often do LEO's go after other equally "henious" traffic infractions. For example I was cut off so close I engaged ABS in order to stop right in front of a LEO, when it appeared he was not going to stop this guy, I raised my arms to say are you going to do something about it and he turned his head.

[DesertRider]

Originally posted by Gizmo According to some highway engineers most roads are designed to handle speeds at least 15 mph over current posted speeds.

Most people drive over the limit, which probably chews up the margin up safety. :-)

In any case, I don't trust most people at the speeds they drive now, and certainly would not want them driving any faster. It would work if we had much more stringent training and recurrent-testing requirements for driver and rider licensing, but in the U.S. we don't have any of that. The result is that most drivers and most riders are borderline competent to travel at the speeds we have now, would be even worse if limits were higher.

[russbritt]

Drive slower if you like, but please stay in the right lane!

[DesertRider]

Originally posted by russphoto
Drive slower if you like, but please stay in the right lane!

I think you've missed my point, and I'm not sure why you've personalized this about me.

Let's try again. Consider two simple questions:

- The drivers you dice with on the street everyday: Would you say they are highly competent drivers?

- If not, would you want them driving faster?

[Mr. Frank]

Yes, BMW riders speed. I usually run 5-9 mph over and on long trips I frequently pass Gold Wings and Harleys. I never pass BMW's. Leaving a big BMW rally in the morning, I can count on being passed by BMW's for the first few hours.

[dlearl476]

Originally posted by DesertRider

- The drivers you dice with on the street everyday: Would you say they are highly competent drivers?


Exactly why I prefer to pass them rather than having them come up on me from behind. I always pull to the right (especially when I'm riding the K :) ) for the few people that do pass me.

Have you ever noticed? Anybody going slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac. - George Carlin

[basketcase]

Darryl pretty much summed up my usual take on it.

Beyond that, there is a lot of interesting reading here, and about the only nuance I've not seen is my particular reason (i.e. justification/ rationalization/ excuse) for exceeding the speed limit.

In a word -- survival.

The video of the stoppies reminded me of it. Watching the video, I found myself wondering if the guy on the second bike suffered a broken neck, or what? Anyway, in my truck, if I get bumped from behind, my bumper gets bent. But if I get bumped from behind on the K, it may well be the last thing I remember. Put another way, my most pressing safety concern (fear?) regarding cage drivers is my being run down from behind on the bike.

In a cage, there is a lot of metal and plastic around the driver for protection. But on the bike, all of that is non-existant, so I have long since elected to ride "with the flow of traffic," if not faster, as a simple measure of survival.

Back when I rode a Wing, I was in a constant discussion with other Wingers over the group cluster mentality: a dozen GL's in staggered formation, with people yakking on CB's, fiddling with stereo knobs, toasting one another with those 55 gallon Butler beverage mugs -- and all while trying to ride safely. Tongue in cheek laid aside, don't hear me knocking the Wingers. Their rider-ed emphasis is commendable, and they boast a lot of knowledgable and safe riders, but the group thing in their culture does make me nervous.

Personally, I prefer to ride alone, or somewhat spread out when accompanied by several other capable riders. And I try to avoid gaggles of traffic in all forms. So at the bottom line, I am usually at the speed limit ... maybe 10 mph above, and occasionally, faster as needed to create some space for mental comfort and physical safety.

All that said, the day I bought the 85' K100 I was running short of time to get home before dark, so I jumped up on the big road and set the needle on 90. Wow! What a rush after a year on a Honda Shadow.

And I've done Deal's Gap at redline in second gear on the K75 ... and I've scraped the pegs on a particular curvy road I frequent on the K11. None of us are completely rationally consistent ...

:dunno

[mthelmet]

I found out the hard way that speed is costly. Back a few years ( 1984 ?) i was traveling home from Lancaster PA. No traficgoing north on US 222, just tring to relive tension from work,about 2PM, going up slight hill, looked down at speedo (105mph). Crested hill saw LEO on side of road, grabed binders. LEO jumped out of car to flag me over. I pulled in behind him He asked if I had any Idea how fast I was going, I said about 75. He said I registered 78 on his gun. which was 23 over speed limit. Then he saw that the inspection expired, more cost. After he wrote the ticket and closed the book, he asked me how fast I was traveling before I saw him. I said that it was over 100. Then he made the comment that he had to set up closer to the top of the HILL.:p :p

Total cost $150. plus 4 popints on record.
Now that told the storie hope I don't get a ticket on the next ride.:confused:

[The_Veg]

Heh the blonde story reminded me of a LEO on the BMW Sport Touring forum a while back who said he tended to be less lenient on the hot women than anybody else he pulled over because he figured they got more breaks than the rest of us in other areas of life.

[MarkF]

Originally posted by The Veg
Heh the blonde story reminded me of a LEO on the BMW Sport Touring forum a while back who said he tended to be less lenient on the hot women than anybody else he pulled over because he figured they got more breaks than the rest of us in other areas of life.

I will confirm that those hot women who don't get a break quickly turn into evil spawn. Even worse are the ones who start crying!

MarkF

[DesertRider]

Originally posted by RickM ...my most pressing safety concern (fear?) regarding cage drivers is my being run down from behind on the bike...

The data (Hurt Report, at least) doesn't seem to support that as the biggest concern. When a motorcycle crashes, more than 3/4 of the time it will be with something in front (within 45 degrees of dead ahead), with a very signficant portion of those due to excessive speed on the part of the motorcycle. Only a tiny percentage are struck from the rear (something like 3% -- don't have that number handy).

That's not to say we can ignore the people behind, but does indicate that the most pressing concern is not what's behind, but being able to see and avoid what is in front.

[Rad]

Originally posted by Blue Knight

" Hello Miss..."
Mike

That must have been fun to say when ya saw her the second time :clap

[Cliffy777]

I learned about the power of tears from my older stepsister. She was one tough cookie (threw me down the stairs once when we were teenagers), but she got stopped speeding and the damn opened up....voila, no ticket, just a warning.

A couple of months later we were out hot dogging in a boat -running in circles and creating some big waves to go crashing through. Anyway here comes the Water Leo and damned if she didn't cry her way out of that one as well.

She actually laughed about it a couple minutes after the cop pulled away.

Blue Knight - don't cut 'em any slack!

[basketcase]

Yeah. I didn't know the numbers, but I figured it was small compared to the T-bones and other such collisions.

My concern no doubt goes back to being hit from behind at twilight one evening many years ago in high school. I was turning left into a subdivision, and noticed the driver of the Corvair coming up behind me was not slowing. He was obvlivious to my presence until I "bliped" my brake light.

He slammed on the brakes and bumped me just as he skidded to a stop. My Suzuki dirt bike shot out from under me and I was laid back on the car hood. No real damage done ... but it was a definite wake up call.

No doubt the stats do reveal more accidents happen with something in the front. But if providence smiles on me, I can see that and take evasive action -- hopefully.

[kbasa]

That's exactly why I lane split. I'm up between the cars and brain dead cagers can't hit me from behind.

[oldcarkook]

Originally posted by RickM
Personally, I prefer to ride alone, or somewhat spread out when accompanied by several other capable riders.
Me too. I find that riding in a group brings on distracting issues. First; you have to worry about the riding habits and attention span of the riders behind you. Second; you have to worry about the riding habits and attention span of the riders in front of you, and third; you have to worry about keeping up or holding back, all while worrying about items one and two.

I'm a no radio nevous rider. When I'm out - EVERY time - I ride like I am flying a 767 full of passengers in a thunderstorm: all my senses are on the highest setting and I am hyperalert.

Riding in a group is too distracting for me. The larger the group, the more likely that other problems will arise. We had a rider killed here last summer who was on a charity ride in a group of nearly 400 motorcycles. He was about mid pack when an impatient driver waiting to make a left and frustrated by the endless line of bikes decided to punch it and zip through what he thought was a big enough hole in the middle of the pack. It was a two second gap which the rider didn't recognize in time to avoid t-boning the car.

I think that when you are in a pack, there's too much distraction to make the light with the pack, stay with the pack, stay back enough, check the route and all these things mean that you are riding at someone else's pace, not your own.

I sure enjoy reading this stuff. It's very thought provoking.

Hat's off to all those who participate here.

[kbasa]

I dunno. Back in New England I never rode in a group of more than a couple riders.

Out here, where group rides are the norm, a high speed romp through the hills with a bunch of other capable riders can be pretty fun.

I'll also point out that I think the general skill level for riders here in the west is higher. They get to ride twice as much and don't have to learn to ride again every spring.

Now that I've alienated half the country...... :uhoh

Dave

[DesertRider]

Originally posted by oldcarkook
I find that riding in a group brings on distracting issues. First; you have to worry about the riding habits and attention span of the riders behind you. Second; you have to worry about the riding habits and attention span of the riders in front of you, and third; you have to worry about keeping up or holding back, all while worrying about items one and two...

When I'm out - EVERY time - I ride like I am flying a 767 full of passengers in a thunderstorm...

Riding in a group is too distracting for me...


EXACTLY my thoughts in every way. When I ride alone it's just me and the bike and my mind can stay "in the zone." When there are others, I have to worry about the others and it's never as enjoyable. And it's not just about speed, spacing, etc.; it's also that I can't stop whenever I want, can't speed up or slow down as I choose, etc.

The one person I do enjoy riding with is my wife (who is nobody's backrest -- she rides her own bike). I worry about her too and it is someone else that I have to keep in mind, but I enjoy her company enough that it's more than worthwhile. Also we have bike-to-bike intercoms, which allows us to communicate and synchronize a lot better than the usual hand signals.

[Cliffy777]

I ride by myself most of the time and like not having to "consider" i.e. worry, about the person in front, behind or alongside.
I went on a charity ride last fall and rode in a group of 20. It was fun for the 3-4 hours because it was different, but I don't think I would want to do it every week-end or anything. That was the biggest group I have ridden with.
I ride with my two brothers and my nephew now and then and I am constantly guaging where the other guy is and worrying about my speed or lack of it or whatever.
I jumped into the middle of a pack of Wings last year for a few miles and that was fun. Don't think they much liked me being there.

[YB in IN]

I'll also point out that I think the general skill level for riders here in the west is higher. They get to ride twice as much and don't have to learn to ride again every spring.

Grrr:huh Who am I fooling, I'm just jealous. I did ride yesterday though. I was scared of hitting ice the whole time, but I still rode !

[kbasa]

Originally posted by Blue Knight
Dave,

I was going to disagree with you on that one until I saw the bikes they give us here to hone our riding skills.:p

Mike

:rofl