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KBasa
04-03-2007, 09:51 PM
http://kbasa.smugmug.com/photos/140641115-L.jpg

I've heard the hype. You've heard the hype. Hell, by now, just about everybody's heard the hype. According to Bike, the F800ST has dethroned the VFR as their favorite bike. Given that Bike has never been especially kind to BMW, this is pretty stunning news. Also, given that I've had a VFR I bought new in 1998, I was curious about whether this could, somehow, be true. If it turned out to be so, you'd have to believe Soichiro-san is doing the macarena in his grave, trying to get out.

So, once again, the guys at Marin BMW kindly hooked me up with a bike to ride around. I was loaned an F800ST in this funky color called Graphitan Metallic Matte. It's representative of a new flavor of paint that BMW seems to be applying to not only bikes, but cars. The color is rich, but it just doesn't shine. I've seen it in a silver variant on the K12R Sport and on the Z4 Roadster. It has a tendency to highlight the interesting contours BMW seems to be building into their bodywork these days; cars or bikes. It seems durable enough, BMW having a long history of fine paintwork, but the matte finish isn't to everyone's liking. It is, however, more creative than the matte black that Honda has foisted on the VFR and Aprilia and Ducati seem to have allowed to spread like an infection among their product lines. Apparently, Flat Black is the new Black. Who woulda thunk?

So let's look beyond the paint and check out the naughty bits.

Drivetrain

It would be tempting to write this motor off as a larger version of an EX500, GS500 or a strange Teutonic cousin of the evergreen Bonneville. How complicated can you make a parallel twin? Well, the German engineers have a saying, "Why make it simple when you can make it complicated"?

While the F800 powerplant looks fairly conventional on the outside, this motor has a very unusual solution to vibration. In most motors, vibration has traditionally been damped out by a rotating counterweight that moves in opposite phase to piston movement. Everybody uses them. BMW uses them in the R1200s, HD even uses them in some of the big motors. They're pretty effective. Ducati, however, came up with a different solution a decade or so back. They built a limited production run of a bike called the Supermono. It was a single cylinder race bike that was, essentially, a standard Duc motor with one of the cylinders lopped off. (The upper one, if you care). Realizing that they'd need to do something about vibration, Ducati installed a mass that weighed what the missing piston would weigh to the other crank throw. The mass had a mount in the case and the other end on the end of a rod, perfectly mimicking the missing piston's mass and yielding a surprisingly smooth single.

In this photo, you can see where the mass lives in the Supermono motor.
http://www.motoliam.com/photos/ML596.jpg

So, you may ask, what does this have to do with the F800? The F800 has adopted a similar mass system to dampen vibration. BMW has both pistons moving up and down at the same time, which would lead to a very buzzy motorcycle. Given that we're talking about a BMW, this simple won't do. The engineers needed a solution and used a solution similar to the SuperMono. It is, as far as I know, the only time a production motorcycle has used this solution.

In the photo below, not how the mass is attached to a crank throw between the pistons. I'm guessing that the effective mass of this structure is equal to the two pistons.
http://www.promotor.nl/published/prm/content/afbeeldingen/motoren/2006/bmw/bmw-f800-voor-287812.jpg

What this means in real life is that you have a bike that operates much like a BMW boxer motor. It has the same kind of sound, makes the same kind of power and exhibits much of the same vibration tendencies of a boxer.

Engine controls are via BMW's BMSK system, incorporating fuel injection and catalytic converter. The engine fires right up, sets into an idle quickly and is ready to ride immediately without stumbling or hesitation. Engine note is similar to a boxer motor, but quite raspy. Like my VFR, this bike makes more motorcycle noise than you'd expect, especially given BMW's reputation for making quiet bikes. Running a 12:1 compression ratio seems to dictate fairly sophisticated engine controls. While I didn't see anything like a detonation sensor, I'd imagine with a compression ratio like that, there's one in the system. The R1200 motors carry them, so it would make sense for this bike.

Exhaust system offers a slightly different interpretation of the R1200GS' dual outlet muffler.
http://kbasa.smugmug.com/photos/140646249-L.jpg

I found torque to be a virtually flat spread from just off idle to redline. I could lug the bike out of a 20mph corner in 2nd gear without vibration or shuddering; it just pulled right out and powered up the hill. At highway speeds, you don't really need a downshift to effect real acceleration, power is readily available anywhere. Unlike the more recent boxers, this bike doesn't feel like you need to wind it up to make it move. BMW quotes 85hp at 8K rpms and 63ft. lbs at 5800 rpms, which seems about right.

Vibration was a sort of low frequency, high amplitude variety that shifted from contact point to contact point through the rev range. At highway speeds of 70 or so, it was calm, with just enough going on to let you know there's a motor running in the bike. At higher speeds, vibes moved through the pegs and up to the tank. Bar vibration wasn't noted, but after riding an R11S for a few years, I'm somewhat immune to bar vibration.

Like the F650 and G650, this powerplant incorporates the transmission, rather than the separate transmission and dry clutch found elsewhere in BMW's lineup. Unusually, the swingarm mounts to the rear of the case. Honda did this a few years back with the Superhawk and the VFR as they tried to allow some level of lateral flex in the chassis. With chassis getting stiffer and stiffer, bikes began to have trouble with chassis compliance when leaned over. Honda sought to tune the chassis through what they termed Tuned Flex. It appears that BMW has attempted something similar.

The engine and transmission are clearly a stressed member in this configuration. The engine bolts to the side rails quite clearly and the frame, instead of connecting to the motor via the usual sideplate arrangement, bolts to a boss on the rear of the engine. The objective of a chassis is to keep the swingarm and the steering head in as direct connection as possible. I'd say that this chassis has accomplished this quite readily.

Note the detailing on the swingarm pivot. This design theme matches the R1200GS and other bikes in the BMW lineup. The black mass coming down from above and bolting to the case is the rear of the frame. The large black mass in the upper right is the plastic fuel tank, mounted under the seat. Clutch is actuated by cable. Dipstick should keep the traditionalists happy.
http://kbasa.smugmug.com/photos/140647661-L.jpg

BMW transmissions have typically been a sore spot with reviewers and riders. They've traditionally been clunky affairs, requiring the rider to preload the shifter, shift at higher revs or the like. This has been largely resolved in the latest generations of R1200s and K1200s. This bike is no different. The transmission shifts readily and crisply. Gear ratios, combined with the flexible power delivery make this bike very easy to ride. First gear is low enough that parking lot maneuvering and lane splitting are accomplished easily, yet 6th is high enough that 80mph cruising is simple.

Final drive is something unusual for a BMW. Previously BMW had only offered belt drive on the unlamented F650CS. This bike has belt drive as part of either the S or ST variant. It's wonderful. No final drive lash. No chain to maintain. And, for the skeptics, no exploding final drives. In the F650CS, BMW had a recall for a bad batch of rear sprockets, so one would hope that they've done their homework this time as well. The part looks similar to the CS part, but I'm not enough of an F650 aficionado to say for certain. With the single sided swingarm, it appears the belt replacement will be a trivial task. I see removal of the various covers and guards, along with unbolting the right footpeg bracket as about the extent of it.

Swingarm is massive and, one would assume, strong. Primary cover is clearly indicated by the big gear. Belt cover encases almost the entire belt, which makes me wonder if BMW will keep this scheme for the F800GS. Hint, hint, BMW. We want it.
http://kbasa.smugmug.com/photos/140642299-L.jpg

Chassis

Unlike the oilheads, which have no discernible traditional chassis, the F800 has a fairly conventional twin spar frame with the powerplant as a stressed member. Frame sections are large and appear to be strong. The rear subframe is a tubular unit that carries the fuel tank. The tank itself is a plastic unit that carries 4 gallons. I saw about 50mpg on this bike, which would yield a 200 mile range. By keeping my hand out of it, I saw mileage as high as 66mpg on the instant mpg monitor.

Suspension is via a massive and competent Showa shock offering about 5.5 inches of travel. Preload is via a simple and accessible knob living in a recess on the right side of the frame. Rebound damping is readily accessible and adjustable via a triangular knob on the other end of the shock. Again, in typical BMW fashion, there isn't any rocker linkage, rising rate or other magic. For those of us old enough to remember them, this is a "lay down" shock.

Preload knob in frame recess. Note placement of accessory outlet. C'mon BMW. On the right hand side?
http://kbasa.smugmug.com/photos/140641609-L.jpg

Preload adjuster can be operated without a screwdriver. Why doesn't every manufacturer do this and why doesn't BMW do it on all their bikes?
http://kbasa.smugmug.com/photos/140641916-L.jpg

The 43mm forks are reasonably compliant but don't, to my knowledge offer preload or damping adjustment. Like the rear, they offer about 5.5 inches of travel, which is decent for a dedicated road bike. Overall, I found the suspension to be reasonable. It's plenty competent when pushed hard, is nice on longer highway rides and doesn't beat the rider. Larger inputs, like sharp edged bumps can jolt the rider out of the seat, but smaller, less sharp inputs are handled readily. As a long time BMW rider, I've long been accustomed to throwing away the invariably oversprung and underdamped stock units. These shocks are a welcome change. I first noted this when I bought an R1200GS three years ago, but other bikes I've ridden in the lineup have shown varying degrees of success.

Wheels seem to mimic the design found on the ST and RT boxers. The rear wheel, however, is more like a VFR wheel. Unbolting the wheel leaves the disc rotor, belt and everything behind. Wheel removal should be simple.

Front wheel sports a design like this bike's bigger siblings. Brembo gear is capable and offers up wonderful feel. ABS is included, as well as BMW's new EVO braking system.
http://kbasa.smugmug.com/photos/140643629-M.jpg

Rear wheel is flatter than other BMW wheels to accomdate the single sided swingarm. Removal should be a snap.
http://kbasa.smugmug.com/photos/140647213-L.jpg


Ergonomics

The bike I rode had a low seat installed, which yielded a set to peg height of about 17 inches. This is fairly tight, but not uncomfortably so. The pegs are set far enough back that your hips don't get pinched, which was our experience with our R1150R. The pegs, in addition to being high on that bike, were forward, which folded us at the hips. Not good. The standard seat is an inch or so higher, yielding a seat height of just over 32 inches. With the low seat, Tina, who's 5'5", could almost flat foot the bike. The front of the seat is narrow, which helps those of shorter inseam get their legs down. I'm 6' with a 32" inseam and I had bent knees when I sat on it.

Windblast is nicely managed by the short shield. It functions much like an S fairing off of an old airhead, with windblast hitting the rider mid chest and the helmet in clean, quiet air. I'd imagine taller shields will be available for those that need to have more noise and turbulence in their lives.

Resistance to side winds seemed to be relatively good for a lightweight, fully faired motorcycle.

Bars are tubular and wide. The F800S uses a clip-on arrangement which makes the bars a couple inches lower. Steering effort is light. When I first started riding this bike, I kept turning in early. The wide bars give it a different character and faster response than the F800S I'd ridden a couple weeks earlier.

Vibration through the bars doesn't seem to be an issue. Switchgear is standard BMW, with the turn signals that you either love or don't care about. The bike has a little INFO button that you can use to cycle through a series of informational displays. MPG currently, riding time, distance, etc. For the touring rider, this will be easier than trying to compute time speed distance problems while riding.

Since this is a CanBus bike, BMW seems to have saddled this bike with the same 5amp limit as the GS. It wouldn't operate my Gerbings. I see Touratech producing an F800 CanBus Helper kit for this bike, I'd bet. The Lone Glaring Fault is the placement of the accessory outlet on the right side of the bike. While I didn't get tangled up in it when mounting and dismounting, it was hard to operate the switch on my Gerbings while riding. Whoever comes up with a nice relocation kit for the outlet will find a willing market.

Switchgear looks remarkably like the switchgear on the R1200 series. Heated grips are effective and were welcome.
http://kbasa.smugmug.com/photos/140645646-L.jpg

Instrumentation is clear and readable under most lighting conditions. Like the GS, this has a red backlight that comes on courtesy of a sensor that reads ambient light. Gear position indicator is large and clear and fuel gauge and temp bars seem accurate. Clocks are stacked top and bottom and seem to be the same as the R1200R cluster. There are plenty of little hash marks on the faces, so trying to figure out whether you're riding 50, 55 or 60 can require a second look. I'm sure familiarity with the speedo would solve this.

http://kbasa.smugmug.com/photos/140645017-L.jpg

So, how does this bike compare to my trusty VFR? I think it's safe to say that this bike is certainly in the same league as the hallmark of sport touring. Additionally, the F800 weighs in at 412 pounds dry, compared to the VFR's 481 pounds. Power for the F800 is about 85hp, while the VFR is generally regarded to be about 100hp. I think we're looking at very similar power to weight ratios, which should yield similar performance. Both have ABS, both have factory bags. The BMW comes with a power outlet, you can get factory heated grips.

OK, so pricing. BMWs have always been priced higher than the competition, but I think they're right in the ballpark with this one. VFRs are checking in between $11,500 and $12,100. Surprisingly, the F800 starts at $10,475, a full thousand dollars below the VFR. Of course, adding ABS and such will raise the price to VFR levels, but we're still right in the ballpark for pricing. How nice is it to have a BMW offered at a price that's competitive with the Japanese, all the while offering typical BMW build quality and design?

I was out riding the F800 and stopped in Nicasio, CA for a couple minutes. As I was standing there, a guy walked up to me (Hi, Ty!) and started bubbling over about the F800. Fair enough. He's one of the assimilated, riding an 1150RT. Then, two guys, probably late 20s to early 30s pulled up. One was on a GSX-R 750 and the other on a fairly well modded SV650. They thought the F was pretty nice and started talking about a friend of theirs that had just bought a BMW. One of them said to the other, "Everybody's buying Beemers, man" and his friend nodded in agreement.

Has BMW finally built the bike that will pull people into the marque? I think they might have. It's priced right, it's got a roundel, it requires no excuses like "it's fast - for a BMW".

This might be the bike that snares a whole new generation of BMW rider.

brooksie
04-03-2007, 09:58 PM
Cool! Maybe BMW has a unit to really attract young(ish) riders!

Great report!:thumb

dbrick
04-03-2007, 10:24 PM
Thanks KBasa. I appreciate your writing and pics.

I too have been interested; the idea of a lighter machine, as fast as my current RS, is attractive. My dealer didn't have an ST to ride, but I got a fair bit of seat time on an F800S last Friday. It's all like KBasa said about the ST, with a bit more leaned-forward riding position.

Both the S and the ST are near-misses for me, looks-wise. Here's an S with with a Schnitzer lower fairing. While the color's a bit loud, I think its line is wonderful:

Still...I've been riding BMWs since the early 70s, from /2s through Airheads, a K, and now an Oilhead...and this didn't feel quite like a BMW to me. The milled-from-billet mass and slightly floaty feel were missing. Maybe some of that was the difference in front suspension, as I didn't feel quite so insulated from road irregularities. Maybe next time I ride one, it'll feel less strange.

knary
04-03-2007, 11:31 PM
Nice write up, but how did it feel? Did it make you smile? Did it make you hoot and holler?

wezul
04-03-2007, 11:43 PM
Thanks Dave!

Let me ask you this, based on your test, would you buy one? (assuming the "Queen of the Realm" would allow this)
I am seriously thinking about either an S or an ST and to be honest, I think I like the more upright riding position of the ST.

On a personal note, I work at home, have two automobiles; one of which does little more than take up garage space for most of the year (a '95 Connie with 50K, i should just sell it, right?) and a '95 Ford Windstar. What I'd really like to do is liquidate both, get something like like a small 4x, maybe a Subaru (don't slap me) to get me through the winters here near Chicago and this would open up a lot of space for my potential "stable" which now includes a R1200RT and a Vespa ET4 (which, honestly, if I bought a F800(S? ST?) would probably promptly be sold.

One reservation is the belt drive, what do you think? Scary, a definite departure for BMW. I'd likely not have the 800 out for long trips, owning the R1200, so it's not a major concern.

Either bike to me look a little easier to toss around than the R12RT on short runs. They have piqued my interest.

Peace.

Wez

knary
04-03-2007, 11:51 PM
I'll continue waiting for the GS version. :nod

KBasa
04-04-2007, 12:25 AM
Nice write up, but how did it feel? Did it make you smile? Did it make you hoot and holler?

Mostly, it made me want to keep riding. It's really light and agile, which isn't what I expected. At the same time, it feels pretty planted at highway speeds. I ran it up to 110 and it was just happy happy the whole way.

By the same token, it's easy to putter around a parking lot and the motor is very, very tractable at those speeds. I think it'll make a terrific basis for the GS version. If you've lamented the loss of the airhead GS, this bike will make you smile. It's lighter than the R100GS and makes plenty more power.

I like it. If I was in the market to replace the VFR, I'd be thinking about one.

KBasa
04-04-2007, 12:54 AM
I'll continue waiting for the GS version. :nod

It should prove to be delicious and might take the crown away from its big brother.

dlearl476
04-04-2007, 01:53 AM
I'll continue waiting for the GS version. :nod

http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/8489/f800gs1normalbs3.jpg

AZ-J
04-04-2007, 01:57 AM
I love this bike, and I started riding almost 40 years on Dad's '68 R50/2. This is like a 40 years later redo, fully modernized, super every day, long-short trip, do-it-all. Break in was a bit hellish the first 200 miles only up to 4K RPMs but then the next 100 miles was 5K, and now over 300 miles, 6K. What a hoot! For reference, 4K in 6th gear is 68mph, not fast enough for more than right lane on our highways here. 6K in 6th is almost 90mph, and a lot better range for an average 73 mph highway speed. I can't wait for 400 miles when I can use all 8.5K rpm, and that's only 25 miles away, now.
Braking is linear and fast, and the suspension is great about it, since it's level unless you pull too much front, lean up and she levels off and stops!
Handling: All I can say is wow!
I came to this bike after a 535lbs Suzuki Bandit ABS model I owned for ten years. The first 5 were fine, then two shoulder surgeries, a year or so in slings, and in therapy longer, and still no more than 15 minutes on the bike after that before pain set in again for three years. It was too heavy and too top heavy. The second five years I drove the Bandit maybe 3000 miles-it was pathetic, and I almost thought i had to give up riding a bike. because it hurt after a twisty ride.
This one, goes straight, and turns by leg control, arms are not needed, but I use them, anyway. :-) It is a dream come true, and so far a two hour stint, with turns galore brings no pain. Who knows, a week long excursion may be in my future again, after a 5 year pain inflicted hiatus.
I can say the shoulder will never be as good as new, but this has to be the best bike I have owned since Dad gave me the R50/2 when I turned 17 and got my driver's license. I have a Sunset yellow S model with ABS, TPMS, LCD compu-display, heated grips, and white turn indicators. I was very reasonable, but its low weight and very low COG make it so good to ride.
After I gain more confidence riding again, and can sit longer in the saddle again, I am going to visit our local fling route, the Salt River Canyon road, which is 325 left-rights in 10 miles, and see if I can do it in 15 minutes or less again like I could 13 years ago on a Yamaha Seca II, which weighed the same, but had a lot less power, handling and braking ability than this one.
My last attempt was on the Bandit, and I had to stop every 5 minutes and squeeze off the pain. No more!
:twirl

merkinmuffley
04-04-2007, 08:41 AM
Great report - hope it makes it to the magazine. Thanks.

knary
04-04-2007, 10:40 AM
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/8489/f800gs1normalbs3.jpg

There should be some kind of license needed to play with Photoshop. Egads that looks awful.

Kutcher
04-04-2007, 11:49 AM
Mostly, it made me want to keep riding. It's really light and agile, which isn't what I expected. At the same time, it feels pretty planted at highway speeds. I ran it up to 110 and it was just happy happy the whole way.



So you think this could be a Iron butt/ Dusty butt type of bike?
-------------------
And that photochop of a GS...
We gotta' loose the belt for a chain. (how could they have forgotten this???)
More aggressive tyres.
More engine/ faring protection.
Hike that rear L plate somewhere safe.
Dual overhead front lights...? HID, thank you.
Steel front brake Reservoir. (That big plastic thing on the bar of the S/ST looks like a wart that just attracts the eye)...

Blah blah blah...
There will be a 800GS....right?

KBasa
04-04-2007, 01:50 PM
KBasa, did you find that the plastic skin parts felt thin, cheap and brittle? When you knock on it, it sounds brittle. I keep waiting to hear a report from someone who dropped an F800. The material feels to me like styrene that will "explode" in a parking lot tip-over. Just wonderin'.

It seemed to be made out of the same stuff as the bodywork on my GS or RT. Fortunately, I don't have any experience with crashing those. :hide

It's thinner than the old school stuff on my airhead or our R11RS, but seems durable enough. The GS bodywork, what there is of it, has held up well over the last three years. The RT stuff seems to be holding up OK, except for where my left knee is rubbing the paint to a dull haze. :bluduh

KBasa
04-04-2007, 01:51 PM
So you think this could be a Iron butt/ Dusty butt type of bike?
-

Why not? 200 mile range. Decent ergos. If I was going to rip a big day on it, I'd probably want a taller shield to move the wind blast up a bit higher.

AZ-J
04-04-2007, 04:55 PM
KBasa, did you find that the plastic skin parts felt thin, cheap and brittle? When you knock on it, it sounds brittle. I keep waiting to hear a report from someone who dropped an F800. The material feels to me like styrene that will "explode" in a parking lot tip-over. Just wonderin'.

hey flash412,
Here's what it looks like under its skin, it's all in the frame design. Plastic is for the insurance company.

Burnszilla
04-04-2007, 07:04 PM
Nice write up Dave.
When I sat on the F800S and looked down at the front fairing I could see a bit of the K75S in the design. These bikes should sell. BMW lowered the aspiration bar.

Kutcher
04-04-2007, 09:53 PM
What isn't?



:doh
Sorry Dave...

knary
04-04-2007, 11:21 PM
:doh
Sorry Dave...

Lots of folks have put 1000+ mile days on VFR's. It may be easier on a goldwing than a DRZ, but the biggest barrier to big miles is the rider.

KBasa
04-05-2007, 01:18 AM
:doh
Sorry Dave...

I've done a 750 on mine, a 98. I believe the winner of the IBR a couple cycles ago was on a VFR.

They're pretty wonderful motorcycles.

Kevin
04-05-2007, 05:56 AM
Thanks Kbasa. Nice write up. But stop torturing me.

I was at the dealer last evening to get a new tire and ogled around the showroom while waiting. Of course there was that graphitan F800ST staring back at me.

Gotta wait til next year. Stop doing this.;)

KBasa
04-05-2007, 08:58 AM
Thanks Kbasa. Nice write up. But stop torturing me.

I was at the dealer last evening to get a new tire and ogled around the showroom while waiting. Of course there was that graphitan F800ST staring back at me.

Gotta wait til next year. Stop doing this.;)

I'm happy to be your enabler. :D

DougGrosjean
04-05-2007, 10:55 AM
Excellent write-up, Dave.

Reminds me very much of my 1984 Kawasaki GPz-550. Meant as a compliment. Can see the engine, good power, light weight, half-fairing, does (did) everything well.

Kutcher
04-05-2007, 09:05 PM
Dave, you know I was joking...Right?

I had to have a good comeback to Flash's response...

I went looking for a VFR before going down the GS path.

With this ST/S being used as a possible fore gleam of what the 800GS power plant "WILL" be like, I'll be having a tough time saying no...

dlearl476
04-05-2007, 10:29 PM
:doh
Sorry Dave...

I did a SS1000 on a VFR's English cousin, a Triumph Sprint ST. And no sissy-butt freeway drone either. CA 395 through Yosemite then over Sonora Pass.

I'm with Flash, there isn't a bike around that can't complete an Iron Butt ride with the proper planing, patience, and perserverance.

KBasa
04-06-2007, 12:31 AM
Dave, you know I was joking...Right?

I had to have a good comeback to Flash's response...

I went looking for a VFR before going down the GS path.

With this ST/S being used as a possible fore gleam of what the 800GS power plant "WILL" be like, I'll be having a tough time saying no...

No worries, Kutcher. :buds

johnnyquest
04-06-2007, 06:50 PM
I was lucky enough last week to ride an f800s. Unfortunately, the clutch on my k75s had to quit working in order for it to happen....

Anyways, I love the bike and am convinced I will have one...have to wait a couple of years though so I can pay cash for it. No worries, my k75s is far from worn out.

Oh, the reason I posted is because I completely agree with your assessment. I'm unique among the members here in that I'm still a rookie, I own an old bike, and I've only ridden 6 or 7 different bikes, none of which are sport bikes. From my point of view, I found the bike very easy to ride, very quick but easy to manage, and the brakes are soooo much better than my bike! I think the beauty of this bike is that it's easy enough for novices to ride, powerful enough to be fun for experienced riders, and built well enough to be a keeper. Oh, and here's another interesting bit of info. You can mix and match parts between the bikes. Windshields, center stand, real luggage rack, side cases, and top case can all be interswitched (is that a word??). This appeals to me because I think I like the riding position of the f800s better than the st, and i think it looks better. So I can get an S model and put the tall windshield from the ST, the rear luggage rack from the ST, and the side cases and be ready to sport tour without compromise. The dealer told me maintenance on the f800 is dirt cheap as well.

JQ

ultracyclist
04-06-2007, 07:38 PM
Where is it written in our by-laws that you (the president) gets to torture members of the organization at will?

The 800 sure sounds like one hell of a bike.

Will there be 800's for us to ride in WI this July. The local dealer will not even allow me to sit on one because they are all pre-sold with BIG RED "SOLD" tags on them. As a matter of fact, the 800's at this point are all pre-sold!

What is amazing to me is that the 800 has about 90+% of the HP of my '02R1150R, and weighs about 45+ or- lbs less.

And so Mr. President, I put it to you!: Is the 800 a street bike, a commuter, a tourer, a sport tourer, or ?

Personally, I am waiting for the GS because I need kindler and gentler ergo's.

knary
04-06-2007, 07:51 PM
Where is it written in our by-laws that you (the president) gets to torture members of the organization at will?

The 800 sure sounds like one hell of a bike.

Will there be 800's for us to ride in WI this July. The local dealer will not even allow me to sit on one because they are all pre-sold with BIG RED "SOLD" tags on them. As a matter of fact, the 800's at this point are all pre-sold!

What is amazing to me is that the 800 has about 90+% of the HP of my '02R1150R, and weighs about 45+ or- lbs less.

And so Mr. President, I put it to you!: Is the 800 a street bike, a commuter, a tourer, a sport tourer, or ?

Personally, I am waiting for the GS because I need kindler and gentler ergo's.

Only 90% of your 1150's power? BMW claims 85 rwhp for both bikes. :clap

AZ-J
04-06-2007, 09:27 PM
Where is it written in our by-laws that you (the president) gets to torture members of the organization at will?

The 800 sure sounds like one hell of a bike.

Will there be 800's for us to ride in WI this July. The local dealer will not even allow me to sit on one because they are all pre-sold with BIG RED "SOLD" tags on them. As a matter of fact, the 800's at this point are all pre-sold!

What is amazing to me is that the 800 has about 90+% of the HP of my '02R1150R, and weighs about 45+ or- lbs less.

And so Mr. President, I put it to you!: Is the 800 a street bike, a commuter, a tourer, a sport tourer, or ?

Personally, I am waiting for the GS because I need kindler and gentler ergo's.
Only 90% of your 1150's power? BMW claims 85 rwhp for both bikes. :clap

I don't mean to pick, also but how does an R1150R weigh +/- 45 lbs to an F800S? Is the R1150R under 500 lbs wet weight? A soaking wet F800S is 441 despite it is listed officially at 450, dry it is 401 lbs. A new Honda CBR600RR is listed as 383 with no gas, and 412 wet (3/07 Motorcyclist page 56). BMW is VERY conservative estimating wet weight, so the 441 weight listed by a half dozen reviews, is probably dead-on.

ultracyclist
04-06-2007, 09:43 PM
I remember reading one of the Euro bike Mags about 7 or 8 months ago, and their conclusions (estimates) stuck in my head.

The R1150R is heavier.

My R-R is rated at 87HP. At the wheel? hub?

You guys have "correct" spec's.










r

KBasa
04-06-2007, 10:23 PM
And so Mr. President, I put it to you!: Is the 800 a street bike, a commuter, a tourer, a sport tourer, or ?



The answer is "yeah". :ha

AZ-J
04-07-2007, 12:10 AM
The answer is "yeah". :ha

Otherwise known as "ALL of the above"

FYI, broke the 400-mile break-in barrier, after exiting highway on trip into work yesterday. After work, pulled onto to highway with 1st and 2nd gear 8.5K rpm runs, and saw 60 awfully fast (4-5 secs). I weigh 170-175 lbs with gear on, so ymmv. Had a blast hovering 65+ all the way home.

knary
04-07-2007, 12:54 AM
I remember reading one of the Euro bike Mags about 7 or 8 months ago, and their conclusions (estimates) stuck in my head.

The R1150R is heavier.

My R-R is rated at 87HP. At the wheel? hub?

You guys have "correct" spec's.










r

The 1150R is around 540 lbs wet, and makes around 77 rear wheel HP. That's around 100 lbs more than the F800. They claim identical power at the crank, but there should be less lost to the belt drive of the F800 as compared to the heavy shaft of the oilhead. All of it means that the F800 whips the ol' 1150's prodigious behind. :ha

The more I think about it, the more I want one. I'm finding my GS less and less comfortable as I put more and more bicycle miles in. I want more weight on my hands and less on my ass.

KBasa
04-07-2007, 01:23 AM
The 1150R is around 540 lbs wet, and makes around 77 rear wheel HP. That's around 100 lbs more than the F800. They claim identical power at the crank, but there should be less lost to the belt drive of the F800 as compared to the heavy shaft of the oilhead. All of it means that the F800 whips the ol' 1150's prodigious behind. :ha

The more I think about it, the more I want one. I'm finding my GS less and less comfortable as I put more and more bicycle miles in. I want more weight on my hands and less on my ass.

Having lived with an R1150R for a couple three years, I can assure you that the F800 will indeed kick an 1150R's behind, prodigous or not. The 1150R will have an advantage if the pavement gets really nasty, mostly due to para/telelever suspension.

I'll also say that the F800 is much less work to ride. Not muscling around an additional 75 pounds is a big advantage. A case of paper weighs 50 pounds, so the R is like riding around with a case and a half of paper on the back seat of the F.

Scott, you'd love the F. The seating position is much like a K75S.

bjohnson
04-07-2007, 10:09 AM
I just sold my F650 Dakar and bought a red F8s. I'm still in the break in and getting used to the aero position, but love it.
ben

AZ-J
04-07-2007, 10:32 AM
I just sold my F650 Dakar and bought a red F8s. I'm still in the break in and getting used to the aero position, but love it.
ben

Aero position? Is that a bent-over one?

I usually sit upright on my S, saving lay down for windy rides, or high highway speeds. I am just shy of 6', you?

Here's my wishes you have good rides on the break-in, mine took 3 weeks. I couldn't use the bike more than 2 days a week the first two . Last week was 4 days in a row, and I broke 400 miles on the in-trip on the last day. The out-trip was a lot of fun, with 8.5K rpm on highway runs to start it.

As for bumpy roads, I am not sure a para/tele setup like the R has would beat this one. We have a para setup on the belt drive (don't we?), and it much lighter and more responsive than one carrying a heavy shaft drive assembly. And, the front suspension is just tight enough, that it lets you know if you are using too much front brake, but otherwise just moves with bumps. It has plenty of travel.

The tele is nice, but the S is so light, and so flickable, I am uncertain if a tele would benefit it, or just make it heavier.

Enjoy your red S! It was a great move.

bjohnson
04-07-2007, 02:06 PM
I'm 5'9, so compared to what I'm used to it's more bent over:D .

johnnyquest
04-07-2007, 03:26 PM
Otherwise known as "ALL of the above"

FYI, broke the 400-mile break-in barrier, after exiting highway on trip into work yesterday. After work, pulled onto to highway with 1st and 2nd gear 8.5K rpm runs, and saw 60 awfully fast (4-5 secs). I weigh 170-175 lbs with gear on, so ymmv. Had a blast hovering 65+ all the way home.

I'm green with envy....well, maybe i'll win the lottery this year.

JQ

AZ-J
04-07-2007, 03:54 PM
I'm green with envy....well, maybe i'll win the lottery this year.

JQ


I hope you do johnnyquest. BTW, the front brake line on my ABS equipped F800S is steel braided, the rear is not but is high compression thick tubing. Stops as nice as it goes and with ABS, pull it as hard as you like.

Handlin' can do with the legs as Reg and Jason Pridmore taught me years ago in a track-based CLASS, but could never truly do it right until this bike. The arms just stabilize it.

AZ-J
04-07-2007, 06:59 PM
The 1150R will have an advantage if the pavement gets really nasty, mostly due to para/telelever suspension.

KBasa, Doesn't this show the bike has a paralever suspension?

Kevin
04-08-2007, 08:53 AM
From what I've read (and intuitively) the Paralever helps mitigate driveshaft effects. That's why you'll see it on BMW's and Guzzi's. The R1200C doesn't have it as the driveshaft is long enough to reduce most of the driveshaft 'jacking'. My first bike was a Suzuki Intruder and the driveshaft effects were much pronounced. (no paralevel or such compensation)

No need for it with Belt or Chain drives bikes. Different dirve train forces. (And no lever in that pic)

Check this article for a pic of monolever (swingarm) vs. paralever. http://www.largiader.com/paralever/

AZ-J
04-08-2007, 09:31 AM
From what I've read (and intuitively) the Paralever helps mitigate driveshaft effects. That's why you'll see it on BMW's and Guzzi's. The R1200C doesn't have it as the driveshaft is long enough to reduce most of the driveshaft 'jacking'. My first bike was a Suzuki Intruder and the driveshaft effects were much pronounced. (no paralevel or such compensation)

No need for it with Belt or Chain drives bikes. Different dirve train forces. (And no lever in that pic)

Check this article for a pic of monolever (swingarm) vs. paralever. http://www.largiader.com/paralever/

The driveshaft effects of the r50/2 I drove were called "torque steer". I see many parallells between the center mounting arm and the outer belt dirive of the F800 to the paralever, you are right this is isn't one.

Then again, I will not miss it as the F imparts no torque steer. The pic shows rear suspension is certainly beefy enough. But it is a single-sided drive, "fork assembly as it attached on both sides.

Thanks for the link, I have bookmarked it.

grw
04-15-2007, 07:27 PM
KBasa, did you find that the plastic skin parts felt thin, cheap and brittle? When you knock on it, it sounds brittle. I keep waiting to hear a report from someone who dropped an F800. The material feels to me like styrene that will "explode" in a parking lot tip-over. Just wonderin'.

Hey, Flash! Always looking on the bright side, eh? :-)

-Gary

SCDorman
04-15-2007, 10:19 PM
I just traded my R1150RS in for the F800ST. I have a paltry 400 miles thus far, but I'm extremely pleased. It certainly handles great. I feel like I'm much more in touch with the ride. A pretty good combination of fun and usefulness, based on my limited experience.

wezul
04-15-2007, 10:59 PM
Post a pic in Tweety's thread and let's get a sticky started, I'll add mine tomorrow evening if you can get me off the thing long enough to upload to smugmug!

KBasa
04-16-2007, 01:20 AM
The driveshaft effects of the r50/2 I drove were called "torque steer". I see many parallells between the center mounting arm and the outer belt dirive of the F800 to the paralever, you are right this is isn't one.

Then again, I will not miss it as the F imparts no torque steer. The pic shows rear suspension is certainly beefy enough. But it is a single-sided drive, "fork assembly as it attached on both sides.

Thanks for the link, I have bookmarked it.

The F800 final drive system is not a paralever in any way. The paralever was developed to reduce "shaft jacking" a phenomenon the causes the rear end of shaft driven bikes to rise under acceleration and drop under deceleration. A paralever has two universal joints to allow the final drive unit to work independently of the shaft.

"Torque steer" is a symptom of front wheel drive cars. In those vehicles, torque from the driving front wheel can produce feedback in the steering that can cause the car to dart from side to side as power is applied.

The F800 final drive system is a very straightforward swingarm with belt drive and directly mounted shock. There's nothing fancy here. All swingarms are, to some degree, the same. They may be single sided, they may be more traditional and carry an axle from both ends. They may have one or two shocks, mounted in a variety of ways. But they all have two mounting points, one on each side of the frame, or as is the case of this bike, the rear of the case.

AZ-J
04-16-2007, 02:00 AM
The F800 final drive system is not a paralever in any way. The paralever was developed to reduce "shaft jacking" a phenomenon the causes the rear end of shaft driven bikes to rise under acceleration and drop under deceleration. A paralever has two universal joints to allow the final drive unit to work independently of the shaft.

"Torque steer" is a symptom of front wheel drive cars. In those vehicles, torque from the driving front wheel can produce feedback in the steering that can cause the car to dart from side to side as power is applied.

The F800 final drive system is a very straightforward swingarm with belt drive and directly mounted shock. There's nothing fancy here. All swingarms are, to some degree, the same. They may be single sided, they may be more traditional and carry an axle from both ends. They may have one or two shocks, mounted in a variety of ways. But they all have two mounting points, one on each side of the frame, or as is the case of this bike, the rear of the case.

Thanks, KBasa

It has been 17 years since I last had my formerly-Dad's '68 R50/2, and you are right, it was called "shaft jacking", but i heard it also called "shaft steering". It was pronounced in the older, non-paralever shaft-driven bikes, and it also caused some unintended steering or veering to one side.

There's only one place in your writing where I do have to disagree. It's when you say "There's nothing fancy here" abut the F800's swingarm.

That's because the side arm is quite a fancy, good looking metalpiece. It is both sturdy and gorgeous at the same time, and that it only comes down one side of the bike, saves substantial weight.

Now I can't wait to find a nice Ti replacement for the exhaust can that also save weight, as years ago I replaced the 38 lb can on my Bandit with a 6 lb Ti Yoshi RS something. That made a big difference in flickabilty and I think it will here, as well.

I plan on driving it as much as possible this week to work and back. Then, after a few long weekend drives, it's be up to Heber for me for the first BMW club rally I have ever been to. I am looking forward to meeting a lot of knowledgable people, there, as well as the ones I meet here.

I feel pretty good for one who was about to quit riding altogether due to the shoulder issues I have had over the last 5 or so years. This bike at 400 dry pounds and a low COG has made it so I don't have bar lean, and I can steer it well with legs, using the arms as ballast. This way the shoulder takes less impact and it cannot make me wince like it used to. The straight up seating position on the S fit my 5'11" height perfectly.

Your write up was great too. Tweety1