Pac North West - Too good for NASCAR?

[screwtop]

I just caught the tail end of a brief clip on the news. Aparently, NASCAR is exploring the possibility of adding a track somewhere in WA, but there's alot of local opposition. Some of the Latte' drinkers don't want to be invaded by "rednecks" and other "disreputable types" that supposedly participate in and/or are attracted by the sport.

I think they should wise up and embrace the opportunity to have a track and the revenue it will bring. They've got an NFL franchise, and IMHO there's a hell of alot more felons on an NFL field than on a NASCAR track.

[aerialfilm1]

They're all scared that they might just enjoy it. Stop in a Starbucks in Florida. Rednecks, bikers, shirts and ties all standing in line like lab rats waiting for a light to go on and a food pellet to drop down a chute. (I know because I'm there too)

So imagine the PBS watching, hot tub soaking, hybrid driving dot-com'rs chuggin brew and cheering for Junior and saying things like "Git r done". Why should those of us who are a little reddish around the collar have all the fun? Embrace your inner Redneck!
:usa

[jdiaz]

I don't know why NASCAR wants to go there, other than they think they'll draw a million Kasey Kahne and ex-Derrick Cope fans out of the woodwork. Circle track racing has always been pretty small potatoes up there, with just a few tracks at Monroe, Yakima, Spokane Raceway Park, and State Line Speedway, IIRC, so why bother?

Plus, you can't put anything on the west side of the Cascades from Everett to Salem, OR, without being within earshot of a lot of people. So I don't even know where they would put a track if they wanted to build one.

[wezul]

How about a road course in WA. What a novel idea! Left and right turns!!! Shifting more often than starts/re-starts. Hmmmmmm! :doh

[jdiaz]

How about a road course in WA. What a novel idea! Left and right turns!!! Shifting more often than starts/re-starts. Hmmmmmm! :doh

There are two operating road courses in WA right now......Pacific Raceways (the old Seattle Int'l Raceway) and Spokane Raceway Park. And there's a go-kart track for minibike-roadracing outside of Wenatchee.

[wezul]

Jon,
Are those NASCAR venues as that was my suggestion. :burnout

[jdiaz]

Jon,
Are those NASCAR venues as that was my suggestion. :burnout

I listed the circle tracks I remembered from my youth in WA (Monroe, Yakima, Spokane, and State Line), but none of them would hold 200K people like say, Joliet.

[wezul]

Ok, I am now going to admit that I am blissfully ignorant of most things NASCAR.
Probably because they rarely run at tracks where they turn in more than one direction.
Have they ever run at Road America? Gorgeous facility. I'd ride to see the good ol' boys race there.

The left, left, left is a snore for me.

[bubbagazoo]

Personally, I would like to see either a Daytona/Talladega sized track or a Bristol sized racing surface. Those are the tracks where I think the best NASCAR racing is. The 1.5-2 mile tracks are boring. Leaders run away and the only way the racing gets close is when race control throws a (phantom) debris caution.

Restrictor plate racing is close. While you might get a group that stretches out a lead, they usually get caught when they start jockeying for position. And the Bristol bull ring. What can I say. Action on all parts of the 1/2 mile even if it's not the leaders.

NASCAR wants a track in the PNW and they want one in the NYC area. My only question for NASCAR is are you going to add to the 36 race schedule to fit these tracks in or take races away from some of those with 2 races.

[Bob_M]

NASCAR evolved from the days when hopped up cars were used in the illegal transportation of bootleg whiskey. That is ancient history. Now days clapped out Toyotas are involved in the illegal transportation of crystal meth and stolen huggies. If NASCAR hillbillies want to get ahead of the trend, they should race Toyots against dot-com millionaires and meth tweekers. The race is the 72 hours of Seattle (eat your heart out Le Mans with your wimpy 24 hours) where every cash drawer in every 7-11 on the I-5 corridor is emptied to preserve this sacred tradition.

The latest of high tech advancements are used in this modern marvel of motorsports - Fuel injection and overhead cams. (them's those bumpy sticks that push the poppets). It is like something out of Buck Rodgers.:stick

[wezul]

NASCAR evolved from the days when hopped up cars were used in the illegal transportation of bootleg whiskey. That is ancient history. Now days clapped out Toyotas are involved in the illegal transportation of crystal meth and stolen huggies. If NASCAR hillbillies want to get ahead of the trend, they should race Toyots against dot-com millionaires and meth tweekers. The race is the 72 hours of Seattle (eat your heart out Le Mans with your wimpy 24 hours) where every cash drawer in every 7-11 on the I-5 corridor is emptied to preserve this sacred tradition.

The latest of high tech advancements are used in this modern marvel of motorsports - Fuel injection and overhead cams. (them's those bumpy sticks that push the poppets). It is like something out of Buck Rodgers.:stick

I think it was Buck Rogers unlike Paul Rodgers.
I'd just like to see more road courses in the season, regardless of location.

[BubbaZanetti]

when i was about 15, i was very heavily involved with a group attempting to stop the planned building of a drag strip next to a lake i had cherished since i was a young kid. my dad and i and a bunch of other concerned citizens formed a group in an attempt to stop the development. it worked, thank god. that gem would have been destroyed. sometimes you have to see things from a local prospective before you can judge. would you want a racetrack in your backyard??? a 10 minute ride to the hardware store suddenly becomes an hour long bumper to bumper affair, people trying to park in your lawn, drunks invading your downtown on the weekends??? i highly doubt urban seattlites are the ones shooting this thing down.

[Red100RT]

Hmmm, NASCAR?? Well, I've never been to a NASCAR race and from what I've seen watching clips on TV it is doubtful I ever will. Looks like just a bunch of good old boys going around in circles getting about 0.0 MPG accomplishing not much more than just contributing to the green house affect.

Think I'll go for a cappuccino.:thumb

[bigfoot105]

NASCAR in the PNW ?

If they decide race in the PNW

They'll need to add wiperblades and window fillers to their cars or they'll never complete a race! Why?

My last recollection on electrical gagets is they don't work so well when wet and those million dollars rednecks aren't very fond now, for driving in the rain. :fight

Here's an idea. How bout NASCAR sanctioning a demolition derby on a dirt track. Rain or Shine. They already tear up enough cars on regular tracks in dry weather. So, now here's a chance for the one with the most damage and still runs WINS ! :thumb



Maybe Rainx might help the windshield thingy issue.








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[knary]

Has anyone ever really proven that a sports team brings more money in than they costs?

[john1691]

Has anyone ever really proven that a sports team brings more money in than they costs?


Good question. What with the stadiums being funded with tax dollars, then they typically are tax free for at least 10-15 years.....not to mention the extra roads to build and maintain, plus extra police on event days, and most of the venders are from out of town, so dollars aren't really going to the local economy. I sure wouldn't want a huge track/stadium around our area, but some of the larger cities are already set up for the volume of traffic that a venue like a track would bring in. Guess I'm one of the "not in my back yard" crowd. :nyah

[Bigrider]

NASCAR? Weren't they the folks that took over Speedvision TV and pushed off a lot of Motorcycle programing?? You go Washington, you rock!!

Dave H
San Antonio, Tx

[jdiaz]

Good question. What with the stadiums being funded with tax dollars, then they typically are tax free for at least 10-15 years.....not to mention the extra roads to build and maintain, plus extra police on event days, and most of the venders are from out of town, so dollars aren't really going to the local economy. I sure wouldn't want a huge track/stadium around our area, but some of the larger cities are already set up for the volume of traffic that a venue like a track would bring in. Guess I'm one of the "not in my back yard" crowd. :nyah

You mean it would be worse than all the Amish buggies already on the roads near your house? :laugh

[GlobalRider]

Ok, I am now going to admit that I am blissfully ignorant of most things NASCAR.

Same here, but I'm not complaining.

Probably because they rarely run at tracks where they turn in more than one direction.

The left, left, left is a snore for me.

Yeah what is it with these guys? Do they not know how to shift gears, brake hard, accelerate hard and turn a steering wheel? Or would that be a bit too taxing for them?

And whatever happened to the "stock" in NASCAR?

[OfficerImpersonator]

We're opposed to NASCAR coming to Western Washington for a couple of reasons, but the primary reason is that the International Speedway Corporation (who wants to build the track here) wants $80 million in public tax dollars to build their track.

This track would be used for ONE NASCAR race per year. They have said they MIGHT have other races, and there is a chance that other groups could host events at the track, but as of now NASCAR is only guaranteeing one race per year at a new track.

Then there are concerns about traffic. The proposed site for the track is on the Kitsap Penninsula. To get to the Kitsap Penninsula from the densely populated Seattle/Everett/Tacoma areas requires using either a ferry or a toll bridge. The toll bridge is a long drive out of the way for most area residents. The track would be built along a two lane state highway. ISC has not proposed making any improvements to the highway as part of their proposal.

Once we've finished debating these important topics, we can talk about the intelligence and education level of the average NASCAR fan. But first we have some important questions about public financing of sports facilities that are rarely used except by millionaire drivers and their teams of corporate advertisers.

Then we can talk about why NASCAR cars can't turn right.

[knary]

We're opposed to NASCAR coming to Western Washington for a couple of reasons, but the primary reason is that the International Speedway Corporation (who wants to build the track here) wants $80 million in public tax dollars to build their track.

This track would be used for ONE NASCAR race per year. They have said they MIGHT have other races, and there is a chance that other groups could host events at the track, but as of now NASCAR is only guaranteeing one race per year at a new track.

Then there are concerns about traffic. The proposed site for the track is on the Kitsap Penninsula. To get to the Kitsap Penninsula from the densely populated Seattle/Everett/Tacoma areas requires using either a ferry or a toll bridge. The toll bridge is a long drive out of the way for most area residents. The track would be built along a two lane state highway. ISC has not proposed making any improvements to the highway as part of their proposal.

Once we've finished debating these important topics, we can talk about the intelligence and education level of the average NASCAR fan. But first we have some important questions about public financing of sports facilities that are rarely used except by millionaire drivers and their teams of corporate advertisers.

Then we can talk about why NASCAR cars can't turn right.

:thumb

Good post. Thank you.

[GlobalRider]

The International Speedway Corporation (who wants to build the track here) wants $80 million in public tax dollars to build their track.

Just out of curiousity, since the ISC wants a FREE track, who gets to keep all the ticket sales, the ISC or the taxpayers who paid for the track?

BTW, why can't they turn right? It is that we are in the northern hemisphere, and if so, do they turn right in the southern hemisphere? :stick

[flash412]

BTW, why can't they turn right? That would require actual skill. Then again, so does object-avoidance.

[OfficerImpersonator]

Just out of curiousity, since the ISC wants a FREE track, who gets to keep all the ticket sales, the ISC or the taxpayers who paid for the track?

BTW, why can't they turn right? It is that we are in the northern hemisphere, and if so, do they turn right in the southern hemisphere? :stick

What happens if we flush a NASCAR car down the toilet in Australia? Will it turn right then?

[shoeman]

:snore

[OfficerImpersonator]

Just out of curiousity, since the ISC wants a FREE track, who gets to keep all the ticket sales, the ISC or the taxpayers who paid for the track?

BTW, why can't they turn right? It is that we are in the northern hemisphere, and if so, do they turn right in the southern hemisphere? :stick

Well of course ISC keeps the gate receipts. I believe the proposal includes an admissions tax that theoretically would be used to repay the bonds the state would issue to help pay for the track. It's what they did to build the Mariner's baseball stadium (Safeco Field) and to build the Seahawks' stadium (Qwest Field) and it's what they've proposed to build a new arena for the Sonics. I guess NASCAR is small potatoes compared to the "ball sports", as they want $300 million in public subsidies for the new basketball arena.

[shoeman]

When the Carolina Panthers were created the owner, Jerry Richardson, paid for the stadium out of his own pocket. He sold seat licenses to people which gave them ownership of the rights to tickets for those seats. ( They still had to buy the season tickets each year from the Panthers.) The Stadium ( I think B of A owns naming rights) cost the citizens of Charlotte almost nothing- the city did make some road improvements. I am a dedicated conservative and prefer as little government as we can have, but I would love to see a national law forbidding public money being spent on sports venues. I have a hard time taxing Joe's grandma, living on a fixed income, to provide someone with a net worth of several billion a free business facility. I have seen studies which purport to prove that sporting events provide great economic benefit and I have seen studies that purport to prove that sporting events provide no economic benefit. I believe in each instance the researcher reached a conclusion and then sought out data to prove themselves correct. I enjoy Nascar. They do turn right, shift gears and it requires a great deal of skill. The fans are not all red necks nor are they all ignorant. Why is it when we don't like something we seek to denigrate it to make our own opinion seem more correct?

[OfficerImpersonator]

There are lots of benefits to having professional sports in your communities. I can't imagine a summer with my son not including a couple of trips to the major league ballpark to watch the boys of summer play America's Pastime. One person's professional football stadium is another person's symphony or opera hall. I think sports and cultural events are important parts of our society that serve to provide a sense of community and civic pride.

But should we spend tax dollars to create sports palaces where millionaires can play on teams owned by billionaires?

Here in Seattle, the Mariners are owned by Nintendo. The Seahawks are owned by Paul Allen. The Sonics were just sold by Howard Schultz (CEO of Starbucks) to a bunch of oil business billionaires from Oklahoma City. Do these guys need corporate welfare when our schools are overcrowded, 43 million American are without health insurance, our roads and bridges are crumbling, our Veteran's Hospitals are overcrowded and run down - I could go on and on with higher and better uses for tax dollars than corporate sports palaces.

[sgborgstrom]

snip I am a dedicated conservative and prefer as little government as we can have, but I would love to see a national law forbidding public money being spent on sports venues. snip

Funny you should say that....Seattle, bastion of liberalism that it is just passed it's own version of no public money for private use.

[shoeman]

Not really funny. Most people, whether they consider themselves liberal or conservative, hold many ( probably most) common beliefs and ideals. It is politicians that work to divide people to secure power. They isolate extreme views, left or right, and use these differences to scare voters into voting for them. If people were more broadly read and studied history and used some common sense the politicians could not get away with the things they do. But it is easier to listen to a 30 second soundbite and some hysteria than to think.:cry

[tessler]

But should we spend tax dollars to create sports palaces where millionaires can play on teams owned by billionaires?Tax question aside, that's one reason why I could care less about professional sports.

Here in Seattle, the Mariners are owned by Nintendo. The Seahawks are owned by Paul Allen. The Sonics were just sold by Howard Schultz (CEO of Starbucks) to a bunch of oil business billionaires from Oklahoma City. Do these guys need corporate welfare when our schools are overcrowded, 43 million American are without health insurance, our roads and bridges are crumbling, our Veteran's Hospitals are overcrowded and run down - I could go on and on with higher and better uses for tax dollars than corporate sports palaces.Please do. :thumb I hear they could use some help down at Walter Reed in DC... There's a venue I would wholeheartedly advocate my tax dollars going to.

[GlobalRider]

But should we spend tax dollars to create sports palaces where millionaires can play on teams owned by billionaires?

I don't think so, but then I'm not a fan of most sports either.

And to pay a guy how many millions per year to chase a black chunk of rubber on the ice or swing some stick, I really have to wonder, especially when someone doing something far more important like looking for a cancer cure makes what...maybe $100K per year.

[dlearl476]

There are two operating road courses in WA right now......Pacific Raceways (the old Seattle Int'l Raceway) and Spokane Raceway Park. And there's a go-kart track for minibike-roadracing outside of Wenatchee.

The rolling billboard spec-racers that they use in Nascar weigh approximately 2-3 times what a real race car weighs, consequently the tracks get torn up necessitating reinforcing the apex of corners with concrete which, in turn, makes the track abissmal for anything but a rolling billboard spec-racer.

[petepeterson]

Well I seen the whole intervue.... 3 of them's first words were " white southern trash"......... The 4th laughed and said yeah they watch a race then go home and watch wrestling.........

None of the yuppies wanted NASCAR up in the northwest,,but they all agreed more draft dodgers and cross dressers would be delightful.......

Would sure love to trade Taiwan for Washington and Oregon,,, it was obvious that they were upset that they couldn't have San Francisco for their capital:laugh :laugh :laugh .........Pete

[gfspencer]

Then there are concerns about traffic.

Trust me. If you don't want traffic congestion don't get a speedway.

I live in Concord, NC . . . not more than five miles from Lowes Motor Speedway. The speedway has two major NASCAR races each year. Don't even think about driving by the speedway around race week. The traffic on I-85, Hwy 29 and Hwy 49 is often standing still. I know that the races bring millions of dollars to merchants in the area but the races are a pain in the rear to those of us who live here. We can't move.

[gfspencer]

There is one GOOD reason to have a track in your area. All the Harley riders go to the race and you have the roads to yourself (as long as you head away from the speedway).

[SIBUD]

We're opposed to NASCAR coming to Western Washington for a couple of reasons, but the primary reason is that the International Speedway Corporation (who wants to build the track here) wants $80 million in public tax dollars to build their track.

This track would be used for ONE NASCAR race per year. They have said they MIGHT have other races, and there is a chance that other groups could host events at the track, but as of now NASCAR is only guaranteeing one race per year at a new track.

Then there are concerns about traffic. The proposed site for the track is on the Kitsap Penninsula. To get to the Kitsap Penninsula from the densely populated Seattle/Everett/Tacoma areas requires using either a ferry or a toll bridge. The toll bridge is a long drive out of the way for most area residents. The track would be built along a two lane state highway. ISC has not proposed making any improvements to the highway as part of their proposal.

Once we've finished debating these important topics, we can talk about the intelligence and education level of the average NASCAR fan. But first we have some important questions about public financing of sports facilities that are rarely used except by millionaire drivers and their teams of corporate advertisers.

Then we can talk about why NASCAR cars can't turn right.


No need to talk about the intelligence and education level of the average NASCAR fan. The other reasons speak for themselves.

[flymymbz]

]

Would sure love to trade Taiwan for Washington and Oregon,,, it was obvious that they were upset that they couldn't have San Francisco for their capital:laugh :laugh :laugh .........Pete


Not funny to those of us on the proper side of the hills. If a 7.0 earthquake caused everything west of the Cascades to sink under the ocean, that would be OK with me. But we still wouldn't want a NASCAR track out here. ;)

[knary]

Not funny to those of us on the proper side of the hills. If a 7.0 earthquake caused everything west of the Cascades to sink under the ocean, that would be OK with me. But we still wouldn't want a NASCAR track out here. ;)

Gee, thanks.

[tessler]

Gee, thanks.Don't feel so bad Scott; we get a lot of that kind of flack from our fellow citizens vis-a-vis New York City or the Eastern seaboard or the presence of the UN or whatever axes need grinding for the day...

So cheer up and know that if someone's goin' we're sure as heck gonna go first!
:nyah

[knary]

Don't feel so bad Scott; we get a lot of that kind of flack from our fellow citizens vis-a-vis New York City or the Eastern seaboard or the presence of the UN or whatever axes need grinding for the day...

So cheer up and know that if someone's goin' we're sure as heck gonna go first!
:nyah

:thumb

How's it going out east? I'm going to go see if I can scare a rabbit out of my garden.

[OfficerImpersonator]

Well I seen the whole intervue.... 3 of them's first words were " white southern trash"......... The 4th laughed and said yeah they watch a race then go home and watch wrestling.........

None of the yuppies wanted NASCAR up in the northwest,,but they all agreed more draft dodgers and cross dressers would be delightful.......

Would sure love to trade Taiwan for Washington and Oregon,,, it was obvious that they were upset that they couldn't have San Francisco for their capital:laugh :laugh :laugh .........Pete

Can we get the south to try and secede again? We should have let them win the civil war. All that money we have to ship down there to help them recover from their hurricanes and tornadoes - man does God hate the Bible Belt or what?

[knary]

Can we get the south to try and secede again? We should have let them win the civil war. All that money we have to ship down there to help them recover from their hurricanes and tornadoes - man does God hate the Bible Belt or what?

not helping

[kbasa]

Well I seen the whole intervue.... 3 of them's first words were " white southern trash"......... The 4th laughed and said yeah they watch a race then go home and watch wrestling.........

None of the yuppies wanted NASCAR up in the northwest,,but they all agreed more draft dodgers and cross dressers would be delightful.......

Would sure love to trade Taiwan for Washington and Oregon,,, it was obvious that they were upset that they couldn't have San Francisco for their capital:laugh :laugh :laugh .........Pete

You might note that Infineon Raceway, where NASCAR has a fairly long involvement, is only 25 miles from SF.

Oregon and WA are all yuppies? You sir, are terribly misinformed.

[kbasa]

Not funny to those of us on the proper side of the hills. If a 7.0 earthquake caused everything west of the Cascades to sink under the ocean, that would be OK with me. But we still wouldn't want a NASCAR track out here. ;)


We figure everything on the other side of the fault is going to fall into the Atlantic.

:dunno







:ha











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Is it possible to talk about NASCAR without it devolving into sweepingly inaccurate generalizations of vast parts of the country?

Jeez, people.

[knary]

You might note that Infineon Raceway, where NASCAR has a fairly long involvement, is only 25 miles from SF.

Oregon and WA are all yuppies? You sir, are terribly misinformed.

:ha

A few blocks from my house. It wasn't halloween.

http://static.flickr.com/46/136418367_4ca0dbbd65.jpg

[OfficerImpersonator]

not helping

So us Pacific Northwesterners should just shut up and sit back and let someone who knows nothing of this situation, or of our geographic region, take pot-shots at us?

Sorry - when someone shoots at me, I shoot back. Ducking is for the unarmed.

[knary]

So us Pacific Northwesterners should just shut up and sit back and let someone who knows nothing of this situation, or of our geographic region, take pot-shots at us?

Sorry - when someone shoots at me, I shoot back. Ducking is for the unarmed.

No one shot at you. Besides, if you lived down there, you'd be grumpy too. :hide
Be happy with what you've got - and we do have more than most up here in the land of forest, mountain and ocean. Educate if you've got the urge to fight back. But if what you want is a flame war, look elsewhere.

Me? I'm going to go tend my garden and see if I can rid myself of a pesky rabbit.

[tessler]

No one shot at you. Besides, if you lived down there, you'd be grumpy too. :hide
Be happy with what you've got - and we do have more than most up here in the land of forest, mountain and ocean. Educate if you've got the urge to fight back. But if what you want is a flame war, look elsewhere.

Me? I'm going to go tend my garden and see if I can rid myself of a pesky rabbit.I'm with Knary on this one. Plus, I wanna to see pictures of that rabbit!

:lurk

[BubbaZanetti]

Me? I'm going to go tend my garden and see if I can rid myself of a pesky rabbit.


BE NICE
http://www.retr0.com/dkhirons/New%20Bun!/IMG_2321.JPG

maybe you can train it to post on JM, thats what i did, it frees up a lot of time.:laugh

[knary]

I'm with Knary on this one. Plus, I wanna to see pictures of that rabbit!

:lurk

EVIL rabbit
I'm picking up a trap tonight. A neighbor in his infinite wisdom didn't secure a few rabbits very well. It's now laying waste to my garden. I haven't been this angry since someone stole my Han Solo action figure in 1978.

[OfficerImpersonator]

No one shot at you. Besides, if you lived down there, you'd be grumpy too. :hide
Be happy with what you've got - and we do have more than most up here in the land of forest, mountain and ocean. Educate if you've got the urge to fight back. But if what you want is a flame war, look elsewhere.

Me? I'm going to go tend my garden and see if I can rid myself of a pesky rabbit.

The guy said he'd like to trade Oregon and Washington for Taiwan. I consider them fightin' words.

I'd like to trade everything south of the Mason-Dixon line for - well I don't need anything back in trade - anyone willing to take it off our hands is good enough :)

What's wrong with a little intra-national sparring? I know in your Oregon, the Oregon/Oregon State football game is quite the event. They even go so far as to call it the "Civil War Game". If you went to OSU, you make jokes about the U of O. If you went to the U of O, you make jokes about OSU. Same here when it's U of W v. WSU. It's all fun and games.

Call me a moss covered latte sipping tree hugger. I don't care. Since I live in the Pacific North Wet, I'm used to the water sliding off my back.

[Bob_M]

EVIL rabbit
I'm picking up a trap tonight. A neighbor in his infinite wisdom didn't secure a few rabbits very well. It's now laying waste to my garden. I haven't been this angry since someone stole my Han Solo action figure in 1978.

What has 8 legs and gets revenge?

[knary]

What has 8 legs and gets revenge?

:evil

I'm off to Lowes to get a Havaheart trap. I'm getting the one big enough to snag cats as well. Any animal bigger than a squirrel that isn't native to Oregon and wasn't invited by me into my yard is getting the boot. If you're stupid enough to think it's cute that your cat thinks my garden is a litter box, don't be surprised to find your cat at the pound. Ye have been warned. :nra

[Holly]

Here's my garden. A rabbit would be a welcome sign of spring!
Holly

[petepeterson]

HaHaHaHa

You dumb leftcoast wacho's really think the south LOST the war???? I think you need to look around up north and take a peak at So. Cal, think about that awhile, then tell me who really lost :brad

And Oregon and Washington, just contain the overflow of freaks from Frisco...:hug ...................Pete

[Bob_M]

Rants and Raves section of Craigslist is the best venue for internecine pot shots

[username]

when you guys argue like this, you're only helping the terrorists.







:hide