Headline: Harley-Davidson goes on strike!

[TheSlashFiveTourer]

. . . no more 'potato-potato-potato' for awhile, I guess.

HEADLINE NEWS (http://money.cnn.com/2007/02/01/news/companies/harley.reut/index.htm?cnn=yes)

(and should we concern ourselves with this??) ` ` :uhoh

[wezul]

(and should we concern ourselves with this??)

I don thing so. :laugh

[Polarbear]

Unions strike, prices go up. Of course most unions already got an increase with our lovely goverment minimum wage increase pending. I'm assuming they want more money! I shouldn't do this....Randy13233

[eddie]

The more profit Harley makes the less they should pay their employees.Except management they should make more as profit rises.I mean if it wasn't for management there wouldn't be any Harleys rolling out the door.They should get rid of these workers building these bikes making this company so much money and just use the management employees.Think of the money they would save not having to pay these overpaid workers on the line building these bikes day after day.

[hondarider]

The next headline:

HARLEY DAVIDSON MOTORCYCLES TO BE MANUFACTURED IN JUAREZ, MEXICO

That's what happened when the union got too pushy at the factory I worked at. The saddest thing about it; when the factory closed and hundreds of people hit the street, the union loudmouths all managed to retire or go on disability while all the other people were scrambling for work in a town that had based its entire economy on that factory for 80 years...and mysteriously,all of the money in the union coffers from dues was gone as well...not one person that I knew there ever found another job that paid as well or even matched the benefits of the the job they had. Sometimes you need to consider the available alternatives before you go biting the hand that feeds. Manufacturing jobs in the US are on the decline while Mexico and China are booming. As a manufacturing guy, this trend makes me very sad. I'm not saying that employees shouldn't want more out of life...but consider what your town or your life will be like if that factory goes away entirely. I know contract manufacturers in Mexico and China who will gladly put up the money, the engineers, and the logistical support to come to Anytown, USA, dismantle your entire operation, move it to another country, and take over manufacturing of your product.

[PAULBACH]

My understanding is that HD has a huge inventory of unsold bikes. Taking production off line may be good sense if it maintains or even increase the price of unsold inventory.

[hondarider]

Unions strike, prices go up. Of course most unions already got an increase with our lovely goverment minimum wage increase pending. I'm assuming they want more money! I shouldn't do this....Randy13233

I'd be shocked if the minimum wage increase had any impact whatsoever on union wages. Our starting pay in the union was double minimum wage for even the simplest of jobs.

[SIBUD]

My understanding is that HD has a huge inventory of unsold bikes. Taking production off line may be good sense if it maintains or even increase the price of unsold inventory.

If they are sitting on unsold bikes, perhaps they paid the union to go on strike.:bikes

[john1691]

I'd be shocked if the minimum wage increase had any impact whatsoever on union wages. Our starting pay in the union was double minimum wage for even the simplest of jobs.


Right, but the unions use the minmum wage as a bargaining chip for raises. The argument is that trained union labor should stay ahead of nontrained , nonunion labor, so if the minimum wage goes up $2, so should the union wage. Here in Lancaster County, PA, I see very few jobs at the minimum wage. My son (16) just started at Burger King and makes a buck over minimum.

Something the geography of the York HD plant should be is a reminder to the Union bosses, they are within sight of the old Caterpillar plant, which shut down after a year long strike, never to reopen. I don't remember how many thousand jobs were lost on that one. Caterpillar just had a great year in profits, thanks, in part, to cheaper labor elsewhere. Something to think about, whether it seems right or not, the ownership of the company is there for a profit, not to create jobs.

john1691
2000 K1200RS

[hondarider]

Right, but the unions use the minmum wage as a bargaining chip for raises. The argument is that trained union labor should stay ahead of nontrained , nonunion labor, so if the minimum wage goes up $2, so should the union wage. Here in Lancaster County, PA, I see very few jobs at the minimum wage. My son (16) just started at Burger King and makes a buck over minimum.

john1691
2000 K1200RS

I see your point. I wonder if I can sell my boss on this premise. Minimum wage goes up 15%...how about a similar bump for me? :D

[85138]

Sometimes unions are their own worst enemy. I'm not anti-union and it is a valid concern the increasing disparity between exec management salaries and that of the workers. One would like to think they could have found some rational middle ground that represented value contributed.

But how about HD's 'blue collar' salt of the earth flag waving image?. (though we know the demographic that actually buys the majority share of the bikes) Stiffing the workers for the fat cats wouldn't sit too well.

[hondarider]

LOL...I hadn't even imagined the stigma of Harley Davidsons with the Hecho en Mexico sticker on the frame...probably not real good for the image...but I believe a lot of Harley components are already sourced elsewhere...like the wheels, the shocks, the brakes, and some electronics...doesn't seem to be hurting sales...they'd just have to do the final assembly in the US an hope that no one notices:bikes

[John Brase]

Unions strike, prices go up. Of course most unions already got an increase with our lovely goverment minimum wage increase pending. I'm assuming they want more money! I shouldn't do this....Randy13233

We need to be careful here, folks. Facts matter.

The union at the York plant did not go out on strike. They authorized a strike. It's a different thing. HD shut down production after the contract offer was rejected and a strike authorized. That makes it a lockout, not a strike. (Though it is a difference even the press seldom gets right.)

And, Randy, you are right. You should not assume "they want more money." The offer on the table from HD is (was) a regressive offer. It includes lower wages for all employees hired after the contract date and significantly higher insurance premiums for all current and future employees. This is not a case of employee greed.

As an aside, when I toured the York plant last August much of the PR talk was about what great and loyal employees they had and what a good partnership they had with the Machinists Union.

John

[hlothery]

We need to be careful here, folks. Facts matter.

The union at the York plant did not go out on strike. They authorized a strike. It's a different thing. HD shut down production after the contract offer was rejected and a strike authorized. That makes it a lockout, not a strike. (Though it is a difference even the press seldom gets right.)

And, Randy, you are right. You should not assume "they want more money." The offer on the table from HD is (was) a regressive offer. It includes lower wages for all employees hired after the contract date and significantly higher insurance premiums for all current and future employees. This is not a case of employee greed.

As an aside, when I toured the York plant last August much of the PR talk was about what great and loyal employees they had and what a good partnership they had with the Machinists Union.

John

And I suspect it is a direct result of (as I mentioned in an earlier thread about two weeks ago) the fact that there is indeed a Harley glut right now....they cannot sell the 06 bikes left in inventory, because the 07 has the 96 inch Twin Cam and the 6 speed tranny. But they were producing a full inventory of the 07. So dealers are looking for storage space for their increasing inventory, while prices fall. Go figure!

[hondarider]

WOOT! I've been waiting 20 years for the market to saturate so that I could buy myself a pile of Big Twins for less than MSRP...of course, now that it's finally happening, my interests have shifted toward other marques and bike styles...figures. :banghead

[dancogan]

I see your point. I wonder if I can sell my boss on this premise. Minimum wage goes up 15%...how about a similar bump for me? :D

And what are you going to say to your boss all those years that the minimum wage doesn't go up at all?

[hondarider]

I'll ask for the same percentage again...but I'll offer him a 5% kick back:D

[Daver90s]

I wonder how this will affect the sale of my HD - it still goes potato, potato, potato

[kbasa]

We need to be careful here, folks. Facts matter.

The union at the York plant did not go out on strike. They authorized a strike. It's a different thing. HD shut down production after the contract offer was rejected and a strike authorized. That makes it a lockout, not a strike. (Though it is a difference even the press seldom gets right.)

And, Randy, you are right. You should not assume "they want more money." The offer on the table from HD is (was) a regressive offer. It includes lower wages for all employees hired after the contract date and significantly higher insurance premiums for all current and future employees. This is not a case of employee greed.

As an aside, when I toured the York plant last August much of the PR talk was about what great and loyal employees they had and what a good partnership they had with the Machinists Union.

John

Here's what I suspect is the motivation behind HD's proposal. They've said that they'd rather have small changes now rather than drastic changes ten years from now. They clearly have seen what's going on with GM and Ford and are making the unpopular, but necessary decisions now.

If you look, HD sales seem to be starting to flatten, which means HD is starting to wrestle with the problem of handling excess production capacity. Excess capacity is what is killing Ford and GM right now. Not only the capacity, but the cost of long tenured employees that expect a raise every year.

I think they know that the cruiser market is not one that's being adopted by the next generation of riders and they're trying to get themselves positioned in case the bottom drops out in ten years. If that happens, they'll have a workforce with a lower cost, which could help them avoid layoffs.

Buell seems to be getting off the ground, at long last, so perhaps this "new" workforce arrangement will allow HD to build bikes that are directly competitive with the Japanese in quality, function and cost areas.

It's tempting to make this into a "management is screwing the employee" discussion, but I think HD is more about trying to keep the company viable, even as the motorcycle market shrinks. If the company goes down in a decade, nobody has a job. If the company remains viable, perhaps they'll have a greater percentage of the total market share and actually be stronger.

It's a tough situation and I believe that HD, which has always had great relations with their unions, isn't doing this just to be cheap.

[Motor31]

Instead of outsourcing to Mexico they might decide to go farther to the East. Chinese Harleys! They'll go Chp suey chop suey chop suey!

[emperkin]

It's tempting to make this into a "management is screwing the employee" discussion, but I think HD is more about trying to keep the company viable, even as the motorcycle market shrinks.
Very Good point. I worked at a union facility for several years as part of management. Not once did I ever notice or hear anything close to "lets screw the workers". In fact I was generally all for them getting a raise, If they got paid more I had an argument to try and get my own raise. This facility recently did some downsizing, a larger % of management got asked to leave than union. And there is no doubt in my mind that they were right.

That being said, I am very rarely pro-union. I think there was a time and a place where they were greatly needed, but I also think that time is passing. I now work at a non union manufacturing facility and in general the attitudes of the workers here are 1000 times better. I have found that more often than not the unions protect the week workers and hurt/hold back the strong ones.

Just my $.02

[John Brase]

...If you look, HD sales seem to be starting to flatten, which means HD is starting to wrestle with the problem of handling excess production capacity. Excess capacity is what is killing Ford and GM right now. Not only the capacity, but the cost of long tenured employees that expect a raise every year.

I think they know that the cruiser market is not one that's being adopted by the next generation of riders and they're trying to get themselves positioned in case the bottom drops out in ten years. If that happens, they'll have a workforce with a lower cost, which could help them avoid layoffs...

Harley also has a medium term problem in that the traditional air cooled V-Twin is absolutely at the end of its development in terms of emisions, and stricter limits are in the offing. So far, the typical Harley buyer has not taken to the V-Rod and I'm not sure they would accept a water cooled version of the cruiser bike.

John

[Harrington]

Harley also has a medium term problem in that the traditional air cooled V-Twin is absolutely at the end of its development in terms of emisions, and stricter limits are in the offing. So far, the typical Harley buyer has not taken to the V-Rod and I'm not sure they would accept a water cooled version of the cruiser bike.

John

Exactly......

There are a few ways to keep a company in business. I'm sure the buggy whip manufacturers trimmed their cost to the quick. Unfortunately the need for buggy whips just evaporated. Innovation in design and engineering will help propel Harley through the 21st century.

[osbornk]

Sadly, I think the purely air cooled motorcycles are going the way of the 2 strokes. Killed by the EPA.

[hlothery]

Harley also has a medium term problem in that the traditional air cooled V-Twin is absolutely at the end of its development in terms of emisions, and stricter limits are in the offing. So far, the typical Harley buyer has not taken to the V-Rod and I'm not sure they would accept a water cooled version of the cruiser bike.

John

I, personally, do not like the V-Rod design. But MAN, what an engine! How can you go wrong with Porsche? I always said, when I had my Road King, that I would love to have that bike with a V-Rod engine in it. :thumb

[TheSlashFiveTourer]

`

[pj1150r]

will the harley riders still worship this marquee? do they care about the union workers? will they still insist that harley is a totally american made machine?

[Capt_Curmudgeon]

I am at this minute sitting in a hotel room in Pine Bluff, AR. I spent the day moping up details in the closure of the fifth manufacturing plant I have had the displeasure of participating in. Four were union as this plant was. I hate this part of my job and look forward to ditching US Corporate life soon.

Spent three weeks in China last year looking at replacement manufacturing capacity. Plentiful to say the least. A lot of apparently content production workers making $120 per month plus room and board. Quality is surprizingly good considering the old or homemade equipment I saw them working with. There was an enthusiasm, work ethic and willingness to get it done I imagined flourished in this country in the past. The difference is they see their fortunes rising with their output, not with a union.

Hard to blame US unions however given the monumental self serving arrogance and incompetence of management I have suffered through these past 40 years.

Guess you can see how I got my handle.

Ah, forget it, I wish them all luck.

[DBFtwofast]

I should have known it was going to hell in a hand bag when I opened my wife's Valentine present a pair of HD boots to go with my new 2007 Road King. Only to discover my new genuine HD boots were made in China!!! I guess the hand writings on the wall. Soon it won't be potato potato but Chop Suey Chop Suey.

[bigdelta]

`

in red and black.