Fraudulant BMW sales

[puccini]

For a long time theres been a Chinese BMW copy dealer selling his junk on EBAY using the Name of BMW in the title of his ads.
The lateset ad is the farthest he's gone. It just says "2007 BMW"
and its a CJ motorcycle.

If readers of this post are Ebay users, I suggest you complain about his ads.
Latest is # 190076487618
He sells under the CJ LEGEND name.

[GlennB]

Well, if you take the time to read the add, it does say its made in China. I can't imagine anyone stupid enough to buy one without reading the whole add... OK, maybe one or two people, but really aren't they going to be the same ones that throw their money away on something anyway?

I do like the pidgin English used in the ad.

[jdmetzger]

Well, if you take the time to read the add, it does say its made in China. I can't imagine anyone stupid enough to buy one without reading the whole add... OK, maybe one or two people, but really aren't they going to be the same ones that throw their money away on something anyway?

I do like the pidgin English used in the ad.

If you check out the sellers feedback, you will find one negative bit of feedback left. Seems the buyer didn't realize it's a "cheap knock off". Buyer beware, indeed!

[SheRidesABeemer]

It's very common to list popular search words in your ad's title; it's somewhat of an art to use the entire amount of space allotted. The reason being your ad comes up in more searches. I find the practice quite annoying and seemingly deceptive. But there is a fool born everyday...and that is his market. ;)

[puccini]

You folks are missing the point.

BMW is a trademark.

You can advertize a CJ in the lead in and then say it is made on the BMW design but you can't headline an ad saying a BMW for sale and then later in the ad
say it's a CJ.

I e-mailed this guy and told him he's in violation of trademark rules and basically he's a fraud.

He e-mailed back that he will sue me for calling him a thief if I e- mail him any more.

He's not very bright.

So BMW of North America and ebay have been alerted.

[SheRidesABeemer]

You folks are missing the point.

BMW is a trademark.

You can advertize a CJ in the lead in and then say it is made on the BMW design but you can't headline an ad saying a BMW for sale and then later in the ad
say it's a CJ.

I e-mailed this guy and told him he's in violation of trademark rules and basically he's a fraud.

He e-mailed back that he will sue me for calling him a thief if I e- mail him any more.

He's not very bright.

So BMW of North America and ebay have been alerted.
How is saying your item is like a BMW a trademark infringement?

An argument can be made that the title listing is simply to gain the attention of people who are interested in the brands listed. HD gets this much more than BMW. Take a look at any chrome bike and see if HD is in the title. Or an off name helmet and see Shoei in the title. Same with Sony, Bose, iPod etc etc. The seller wants to attract the attention of people who are looking for the other “brand" to show them what they have. I don't really understand how these constitute trademark infringement? But then again I'm not tasked with guarding anyone's trademark. :dunno

[AZ Greg]

There is a line of cases where holders of copyright names: e.g. BMW, Coke, Kleenex, iPod, etc. have been successful in suing infringers where website developers have imbedded within their website "metatags" which trigger search engines to hit websites when certain search terms are used.

It is infringement to be "like" a BMW . . . period! If you don't own the name or don't have permission you can't be "like" anything!

[flash412]

A guy once used a photo I shot (and posted on my personal website) of a bike I had for sale in an ad he placed offering a similar bike for sale on eBay. I sent him a note suggesting that he should have asked my permission first. He sent me a nasty reply. I replied, threatening to report him to eBay if he didn't remove my photo. He sent me a very nasty reply.

I sent eBay his ad number and a link to my website with more photos of the same bike and some links to other photos of different bikes I had shot at the same location. His ad was gone within a few hours.

My point is, eBay takes copyright infringement VERY seriously.

[GSTom]

It is infringement to be "like" a BMW . . . period! If you don't own the name or don't have permission you can't be "like" anything!
Chang Jiang is a REPLICA of the WWII BMW R71, so it really is "like" the BMW. Is there anyone that doesn't realize that a CJ isn't a BMW? They make no bones about it being anything other than a knock-off of the original 60 year old design. Its even a Flathead!
Does anyone think you are buying a real Rolex for $30 from the guy on the street in Chinatown?

[Braddog]

eBay probably should require that ads like that are placed in the "other" category instead of allowing them to be posted under the BMW heading. The seller isn't really claiming it's a BMW, he's claiming it's BMW-like, which a CJ certainly is. It's really eBay allowing the person to do this. I see CJ's under the BMW heading all the time.

In Flash's case, where someone "borrowed" a photo...well, if all he did was link to your site, you could've switched up the photo with one of something else. I know of people that have done things like that before.

I hate doing searches on eBay, because people put everything and the kitchen sink in their main title, as well as the rest of their text. You could be looking for something specific, and pull up a couple of dozen different listings, only 1 or 2 that may actually match what you're looking for.

[wmubrown]

A guy once used a photo I shot (and posted on my personal website) of a bike I had for sale in an ad he placed offering a similar bike for sale on eBay. I sent him a note suggesting that he should have asked my permission first. He sent me a nasty reply. I replied, threatening to report him to eBay if he didn't remove my photo. He sent me a very nasty reply.

I sent eBay his ad number and a link to my website with more photos of the same bike and some links to other photos of different bikes I had shot at the same location. His ad was gone within a few hours.

My point is, eBay takes copyright infringement VERY seriously.

How did you ever find a picture of your bike on Ebay? Did someone else see it, or did you stumble on it? I'm not sure I'd recognize mine if it popped up on someone elses page... or was it pretty unique?

[AZ Greg]

Chang Jiang is a REPLICA of the WWII BMW R71, so it really is "like" the BMW. Is there anyone that doesn't realize that a CJ isn't a BMW? They make no bones about it being anything other than a knock-off of the original 60 year old design. Its even a Flathead!
Does anyone think you are buying a real Rolex for $30 from the guy on the street in Chinatown?

You've missed the point. It is the use of the brand name which is infringement. Therefore, a shoe can't be "like" an "Air Jordan," it either is or it isn't.

By the way, I did by a real Rollex watch in Mexico for $15 (Please note the spelling).

[GSTom]

You've missed the point. It is the use of the brand name which is infringement. [/I].

You're right, I read your post once and replied too quickly. Re-reading gives me a better sense of what you were communicating. Sorry. Tom

BTW, I once "won" a "Dolex" watch for attending a sales pitch at a time-share place. (I had the choice of the watch or a 35mm camera)

[Belquar]

How did you ever find a picture of your bike on Ebay? Did someone else see it, or did you stumble on it? I'm not sure I'd recognize mine if it popped up on someone elses page... or was it pretty unique?



This happened to me too. I had my bike posted on ebay for sale. I got a lot of emails from folks calling me a scammer because some other *#C)(#%&$@*@*(! had taken the photos of my bike and made an ad of their own and were running a bogus auction. You have to be very careful on ebay. Lot of people out there looking to *($(@%_!@ you over hard. I like ebay and all transactions I have done have been smooth and with good ebayers. You just have to watch your back while your there.

[puccini]

Chang Jiang is a REPLICA of the WWII BMW R71, so it really is "like" the BMW. Is there anyone that doesn't realize that a CJ isn't a BMW? They make no bones about it being anything other than a knock-off of the original 60 year old design. Its even a Flathead!
Does anyone think you are buying a real Rolex for $30 from the guy on the street in Chinatown?


OK, Heres what you do.

Spend a lot of time and money to develop a unique item.
Market it and get a good business going.

Then see another company make a cheap replica of YOUR developed product and advertize it, IN THE MAIN HEADING as being yours and see how upset you get.

The ad I'm talking abpout had a heading of "BMW 2007" and the meat of the ad still said "BMW" but on a understated heading said "CJ LEGEND".

It's a matter of where your sitting.

As others said "like" a BMW is NOT a "BMW"

Gerry

[flash412]

How did you ever find a picture of your bike on Ebay? Did someone else see it, or did you stumble on it? I'm not sure I'd recognize mine if it popped up on someone elses page... or was it pretty unique?I had a bike for sale. I was looking for "comparables" on eBay and came upon a photo I had taken and posted a just few days earlier. The backdrop was fairly unique as it was shot on a bluff overlooking a lake with some foothills in the background. It was obvious that it was my photo that he used since he was located more than a thousand miles away. Besides, I retained the original, larger photo from which the posted photo was cropped.

[widebmw]

So its kind of like posting this thread to this forum.
This is the BMWMOA forum it is not the BMW forum.
It is "like" the BMW forum but it is not owned by BMW.
BMW has a forum at - http://www.bmwxplor.com

[GSTom]

Then see another company make a cheap replica of YOUR developed product and advertize it, IN THE MAIN HEADING as being yours and see how upset you get.
The ad I'm talking abpout had a heading of "BMW 2007" and the meat of the ad still said "BMW" but on a understated heading said "CJ LEGEND".
It's a matter of where your sitting.
Gerry

I see a vast difference between a company copying and marketing a product that the original manufacturer is still producing, and one who is reproducing a product that the original company has not produced for 60 years. This is especially true when the reproducer is using a distinctively different name and logo than the original manufacturer used.
Any patent rights that the original manufacturer may have held on the original product have long since expired.

Ebay sellers, as has been mentioned, often list "similar" brand names or item descriptions in order for their auction to be picked up during searches. Since this is commonly done, the vast majority of eBay bidders are aware of this and are not mislead when confronted by this technique.

[SheRidesABeemer]

OK, Heres what you do.

Spend a lot of time and money to develop a unique item.
Market it and get a good business going.

Then see another company make a cheap replica of YOUR developed product and advertize it, IN THE MAIN HEADING as being yours and see how upset you get.


I would be pretty happy if my product is so good that it becomes the industry standard! Compare away, 'cause mine is the best! :D

Reminds me of the old duffer at the gas station asking me what kind of bike I had. "It's a BMW". "Oh, that's the Cadillac of bike". "Well actually it's the BMW of bikes". :laugh

[Hodag]

by the way the CJ is not a true replica....
most do not pass authenticity inspection at a WWII re-enacting events until they are modified

not that I would know anything about that

[tonkandy]

How is saying your item is like a BMW a trademark infringement?


The E-Bay Description section of the item I saw (190077119681) says


" Description

Item Specifics - Motorcycles
Make: BMW
Type: Cruiser
Model: Other
Warranty: Vehicle does NOT have an existing warranty

Model Year: 2006
Engine Size: 750 cc

Kilometres: 0
Type of Title: Clear

Condition: New
VIN: -

Colour: Green


Seems to me that up front they aren't saying that the bike is "like a BMW" they are saying it is a BMW.
I don't care whether you'd have to be foolish to think you were getting a real BMW (as GlennB suggests), or whether or not there is a trademark infringement or whatever - the bottom line is that the listing is deceptive, and that ain't right.

[Mika]

Anyone care to speculate on BMW licensing the R71 to Russia and they in turn sublease the production to the Chinese in 1950.

What rights did BMW cede to Russia in that license agreement?
What rights did Russia cede to China?
What rights could they take as victors?
Are the letters BMW a trademark or letters?
Could CJ under its license agreement call it anything it wanted including BMW?
The roundel is not used anywhere in the ad.
Why isn’t BMW going after it?

China is not particularly known for copyright or trademark protection.

[DarrylRi]

BMW didn't license the R71 to the Soviets; the production line was at their Eisenach factory when the war ended, and Eisenach ended up in the Soviet sector. The Soviets carted off the line to make M72s, and in the late 50s they sold the line on to the Chinese. The single cylinder R35 was also being made at that facility, and the East Germans continued making those, first with a BMW label and then in 1949, after BMW sued them over it, as EMW ("Eisenach Motor Works").

[Mika]

My mistake. I must have miss read. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ural_motorcycle)

[mrich12000]

For a long time theres been a Chinese BMW copy dealer selling his junk on EBAY using the Name of BMW in the title of his ads.
The lateset ad is the farthest he's gone. It just says "2007 BMW"
and its a CJ motorcycle.

If readers of this post are Ebay users, I suggest you complain about his ads.
Latest is # 190076487618
He sells under the CJ LEGEND name.

:stick :deal Deliberately Misleading! Bought a BMW motorcycle, but it was onlya cheap replica
Buyer peterb123( 24) 22-Sep-06 20:59 190016794012
Reply by cj_legend: pls read the description first, i said it is a replica and it is a CJ-750 23-Sep-06 21:02
checked out the seller
interesting
selling from Markham Ontario as well drop shipped:buds :buds
Michael Oshawa
interesting read Mika..

[DarrylRi]

My mistake. I must have miss read. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ural_motorcycle)

I have misunderstood some of the sequence of events that came to the production of the Soviet M72. It's clear from this and a couple other sources I checked that the Soviets were making them during the war, and therefore they had the ability to do so without the actual R71 production line.

However, Wikipedia has already been proved not to be the be-all and end-all source of information. In fact, the article you point to is quite speculative in a number of ways about what actually happened, including whether BMW licensed the R71 or the Soviets reverse engineered it, and it also makes factual errors in other areas.

(Riyushko, for example, was producing Harleys under license, as they were set up first as an importer of Harleys, by a Harley executive, and then to keep the cost down during the depression, paid licensing fees to be able to make them locally, so they are not "copies", but the real thing. The Japanese army "bought" the company in 1938. And while Harley did go through an R71 and reverse engineer the motor and transmission, little else of the XA is actually BMW tech. Even where Harley did follow BMW closely, they applied their own design and manufacturing techniques. For example, the R71 has, like all BMW motors until 1970, a pressed-together crankshaft and one piece conrods. The XA, otoh, has a one piece crank and split conrods.)

In 1941 BMW began series production of R75, and did not resume production of R71. Supplying the Soviets with this superseded model would have seemed a good idea at the time. This would also explain why the Soviets ended up making a copy of the Wehrmacht sidecar.
However, according to "BMW Motorcycle Buyer's Guide" by Knittel and Slabon, the R75 didn't start production until June of 1941, the very same month that Germany invaded the Soviet Union. I am told that the Soviet sidecar has a number of distinctive features, and so it's not made from the tooling that produced the Wehrmacht sidecars.

Regarding your question, Are the letters BMW a trademark or letters?, they are clearly a trademark, at least when it comes to vehicles. This was established after the war, when the Eisenach factory was restarted, and began producing R35s from leftover stock, including BMW roundels. They continued on to produce new parts and bikes. But BMW sued them in 1949, and they were forced to change both the name on the bike (to EMW) and the logo (which became a quartered circle with alternating red and white areas).

[Mika]

Thanks Darryl.

I agree that Wikipedia is a great source of information of dubious pedigree, and that much in this particular Wiki is speculative. It was a quick resource that gives an overview of information I have read in non motorcycle historical texts dealing with this period.

I am familiar with EMW but do not claim to have a real knowledge base, so a follow up question about BMW letters being copyrighted. My question remains is it the letters by themselves or the letters BMW in conjunction with a roundel?

Parsing what little I have read the name and logo change came because the two were used together. The change came as an agreement that allowed EMW to use a BMW like roundel in red and white. In my readings it was the logo that was the prize at the time. It was a much more heavily black and white print world so the change of color was an easy concession to obtain the right to a logo that would look little different in print.

http://www.cybermotorcycle.com/images/logos/emw_logo_142.gif
From: cybermotorcycle.com (http://www.cybermotorcycle.com/euro/brands/emw.htm)

In other cases that I have read in passing of BMW protecting the letters it seemed to fall into two categories: 1) the letters in conjunction with the roundel or its likeness, 2) cases where people were profiting on the letters by implication that BMW was associated or licensed the product. In these cases it seemed to be the fear of legal entanglements rather than the force of law that made the potential defendants back down.

I am not a clear on this as you seem to be. I love to learn, so just wondering.

[EXR911]

About a year ago, I did a road test and article on a Ural motorcycle and sidecar for a Canadian newspaper and as part of the research for the article looked at the origins of the Ural company.
According to what I could discover about the "BMW connection" to the Russian Urals, it would seem that the German Army had used the R12 from 1935 as its sidecar motorcycle and that BMW, when they re-designed their line-up, replaced the R12 with the R71, with the intent of it being used by the German army. But the Army preferred the R12.
Probably because of General Von Schell's 1938-39 sweeping rationalization of the German motorcycle industry, and the German Army's unhappiness with the tendency of the R71 750 sidevalve engine to overheat and their decision to issue design specifications for a new sidecar motorcycle with sidecar wheel drive to replace the R12 (the result was the BMW R75 and the Zundapp KS750), the BMW firm while continuing to make some R71s (until 1941), licensed the Russian government (as part of the German/Russian pact of 1939 which led to the invasion of Poland) to manufacture the R71 in Russia.
Originally the Russian version of the R71 - the M72 - was to be built at a Moscow-area plant but when the Germans invaded Russia in 1941, a disused brewery in Irbit, east of the Ural mountains, became the factory. After WWII the Irbit factory altered the design to a 650cc overhead valve one and the M72 sidevalve design ultimately filtered down to the Communist Chinese government for their manufacture and military use.
PT9766

[dlearl476]

It's very common to list popular search words in your ad's title; it's somewhat of an art to use the entire amount of space allotted. The reason being your ad comes up in more searches. I find the practice quite annoying and seemingly deceptive. But there is a fool born everyday...and that is his market. ;)

I disagree. While sometimes annoying, my '69 Ducati restoration would have been infinitely more difficult without the practice. Search "Ducati Scrambler" and you get, maybe, 10 hits. Search "Ducati Scrambler, Single, 250,350, 450, RT" and you'll get thousands. Yes, it takes time to sort through them, but If you're in need, it's worth it. FWIW, I found what may be two of the best NOS stashes of Ducati parts from an auction for Benelli (Domino) twist grips that had just such a "catch all" title.

[RandallIsland]

I wonder if Don Juan would sue me.
Nahhhh. He's dead. Right?

[puccini]

Since I'm a seller on Ebay and I made an issue of selling CJ motorcycles under the title banner of "BMW 2007",
ebay looked at the ads and pulled them off the auction for the reason that is very apparent.

The seller misrepresented the items.

OK,
So later in the day I get this very nasty e-mail from the seller,(most likely Chinese),
who blamed all his troubles on me.
His wife and kids will starve.
The landlord is going to foreclose on his lease and confiscate his bikes,
and it went on ad nauseum.

I replied that I hoped he sold all his CJ motorcycles and became a very wealthy man, but he is in The United States now and we don't do business in the manner he's used to where he comes from.

I mentioned that had he just advertized them as CJ Motorcycles, similar in design and function as the BMW its copied from, then he would have no problems with anyone.

Guys, maybe it's just me, I don't know,
but if stuff like this continues, were going to have some big problems here in the states.

I don't wish that guy any troubles but I'll be damned if I'll let the way he's doing business become common.


I've also owned many BMW'as and tallied up more than 150,000miles on them
so I'm a litle protective about them.

Puccini

[GeoffMiller]

rode a Ural. Liked it a lot. They bought a full page ad in BMWON. BMW did not. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm

[SheRidesABeemer]

I disagree. While sometimes annoying, my '69 Ducati restoration would have been infinitely more difficult without the practice. Search "Ducati Scrambler" and you get, maybe, 10 hits. Search "Ducati Scrambler, Single, 250,350, 450, RT" and you'll get thousands. Yes, it takes time to sort through them, but If you're in need, it's worth it. FWIW, I found what may be two of the best NOS stashes of Ducati parts from an auction for Benelli (Domino) twist grips that had just such a "catch all" title.

I shouldn't have implied that all loaded titles are deceptive. I think this is a good example of the effective use of loading your title to pull in a wider audience. I look for data anomalies for a living, the more detailed your search, the less results it will yield. But as you say sometimes it worth getting to many hits, and sifting for the gold. :)

The real annoying titles are the "NOT A .... " titles. They get into your search without having infringed on anyones rights. Technically correct but I will skip the entry! I wonder if the seller with the CJ bikes will figure this one out. How can eBay pull an ad if the title says "Not A BMW" ?

[DarrylRi]

I am familiar with EMW but do not claim to have a real knowledge base, so a follow up question about BMW letters being copyrighted. My question remains is it the letters by themselves or the letters BMW in conjunction with a roundel?

If you check out the BMW club logo requirements (http://www.bmwra.org/download/GUIDELINE1.pdf), you'll see that it reads, in part:

Please note that the use of the BMW emblem and lettering is restricted to officially-recognised BMW clubs acting within the limits of their statutes and must conform to the standards laid down below, which form part of the international guidelines for the use of the BMW trademarks.

That looks to me like they are claiming the letters B, M and W separately from the roundel.

Do you think BMW would object if Chang Jiang issued a special model, with the original style BMW cast into the right side of the motor (but no roundels)?

Parsing what little I have read the name and logo change came because the two were used together. The change came as an agreement that allowed EMW to use a BMW like roundel in red and white. In my readings it was the logo that was the prize at the time. It was a much more heavily black and white print world so the change of color was an easy concession to obtain the right to a logo that would look little different in print.

The logo is quite a prize, it's something like the second most recognized corporate logo in the world. I find it surprising that BMW let EMW use such an obviously deritive logo (white and red are the colors of the Thuringia state flag, where Eisenach is located, and this corresponds to the white and blue of the Bavarian royal wappen and state flag in the BMW roundel).

In other cases that I have read in passing of BMW protecting the letters it seemed to fall into two categories: 1) the letters in conjunction with the roundel or its likeness, 2) cases where people were profiting on the letters by implication that BMW was associated or licensed the product. In these cases it seemed to be the fear of legal entanglements rather than the force of law that made the potential defendants back down.

I don't know of any cases where BMW has gone after someone producing a product that just says BMW on it (and nothing more); but I am aware of a couple cases where they cracked down on people abusing the logo. But that would naturally be the case, as the logo has a tremendous value by itself.

Defendants back down all the time, regardless of the merits of a case, simply because it's so expensive to fight a case in court. BMW has the resources to stay in the fight, but if you are producing, for example, earings that say BMW, even if you believe strongly that you're not violating their trademark, you probably don't have the resources to go through the fight to prove it.

But, otoh, do you think that DKNY, which appears to have only the letters as their corporate identity, would not fight over someone else using those letters on clothing? I can think of a number of other companies like this, and would have to believe that they would create a unique image to trademark if they were insecure about their rights to the name. They've spent millions on advertising to build up their brand, after all, and it would be at risk to anyone with access to silkscreening equipment.

[Mika]

Thank you for the link and detailed response to my questioning nature. I have followed copyright and logo infringement cases, particularly BMW, for a long time. I had read the information in the link some time ago and forgotten its nuances and the source to review it.

I wish I could lay my hands on the letter specific case that I believe I remember. As best I recall it centered on a specific exaggerated type face BMW was using that had been adopted by another company in promotions. For now it will remain as an apocryphal memory.

Again thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. I will go back to lurking now.
:lurk