Sales numbers

[knary]

Triumph sold over 10,000 bikes in the U.S. last year.
BMW sold, best guess, a bit over 15,000.

hmmm....

[RTRandy]

And so your point iiis ?

[knary]

And so your point iiis ?


Point? I don't know. I found it interesting. A brand that was dead not long ago now has 2/3 the sales of BMW in the U.S..

[DarrylRi]

I will find it more interesting to see if Italy has supplanted the US as BMW's second largest market for bikes. There was only a few hundred bikes difference last year.

[BubbaZanetti]

Point? I don't know. I found it interesting. A brand that was dead not long ago now has 2/3 the sales of BMW in the U.S..

triumph has managed to agressively market their bikes as competetive options to the japanese and italian manufactures, which they most certainly are. i think they tend to appeal to people who want something "different", but don't want to sacrafice power or "standard" layout (ie. no bmw or guzzi shaft drive, boxer, etc). i ride mostly with friends of mine my same age or younger who nearly all have triumphs, speed tripples, thruxtons, etc. they're a well made bike that is neat to look at and can hold their own with the japanese rivals. the 675 has been getting amazing reviews and it's got a fairly refreshing look. triumph also has a lot of "nostalgia" to market themselves on.

[eljeffe]

Fresh product from Triumph has really made the difference. Appealing to all market segments (cruiser, sport, touring) has really given Triumph a strong foothold in the market.

I believe Triumph passed Ducati in 2005 for units sold, and is nipping at BMW's heels.

[kitze2]

As a life long racer and track rider I can attest to the Daytona 675. As my RT is one of the best road bikes I've ever riden. My '07 675 is without a doubt the the finest track bike ever produced. But it ain't no fun off the track! An hour ride takes two days to recover from! Oddly enough Triumph gives a lot of credit for their sales to the Scrambler. While it's kinda cool it doesn't live up to the original. But I guess nostalga is a strong sales tool. Anyways...my $.02

[GeoffMiller]

I would be interested in knowing the number of Triumph dealers verses the number of BMW dealers nationally.

[eljeffe]

I would be interested in knowing the number of Triumph dealers verses the number of BMW dealers nationally.

173 (according to Triumph's website). And I know many of them are also multiline dealers with BMW and sometimes Ducati or other European brand.

[Callmethebreeze]

It seems that Triumph is very comfortable joining with other brands. The late BMW Dealer in CT (Canton Cycles) was a BMW, Triumph and Victory dealership. The BMW & Triumph parts of the business were purchased by Skip Gengras who also sells H-D and Ducati in East Hartford. Triumph has a nice line of cycles with attractive price points.


Breeze

[john1691]

The Sprint ST is just over $11k, with bags.....yes, it has a chain drive, yes, a few less horses, but for $7k less than a K12S with bags, I'd really have to think about it. Trouble is, my K12RS only has 16K on it, and I want to put 100K on before I buy another sport tourer, so it might take a while...........

john1691
2000 K1200RS

[Callmethebreeze]

Does the RS have good resale value? I really don't attend to Blue Book etc.

Breeze

[Motor31]

I think the RT retains more value but it's close.

[dlearl476]

triumph has managed to agressively market their bikes as competetive options to the japanese and italian manufactures, which they most certainly are. i think they tend to appeal to people who want something "different", but don't want to sacrafice power or "standard" layout (ie. no bmw or guzzi shaft drive, boxer, etc). i ride mostly with friends of mine my same age or younger who nearly all have triumphs, speed tripples, thruxtons, etc. they're a well made bike that is neat to look at and can hold their own with the japanese rivals. the 675 has been getting amazing reviews and it's got a fairly refreshing look. triumph also has a lot of "nostalgia" to market themselves on.


Pretty much describes my decision to a "T." But the kicker was the price. IMHO, there wasn't a $6K difference apparent between riding the R1100S and the ST. That difference is in resale, as I'm finding out now that I'm selling the Sprint, but I'd do the same again.

[The_Veg]

Triumph Concept Sketches (http://www.triumphchepassione.com/prototipi-triumph.htm)

[RTRandy]

The other part of the story and that is Triumph pulled out of the International
Motorcycle show circuit in 05 and has still managed to grow their share of market without attending the show. Only 3% of Triumph owners attend the show so who could blame them. Their new Tiger for 07 finally replaced the twin bug eyes up front and looks great in the photos. Their success could be summed up in one word: Daytona 675 . . or is that two words?

[MCohen]

I will find it more interesting to see if Italy has supplanted the US as BMW's second largest market for bikes. There was only a few hundred bikes difference last year.
Yes, Italy has passed the US in sales last year. I saw this press release today, "A year of records for BMW Motorrad." (http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU0701/S00107.htm) According to the release BMW Motorrad topped 100,000 units sold for the first time in 2006. But this increase came from Western Europe with top sales by country as follows: Germany with 23,617 units, Italy 13,651 units, US 12,825 units and Spain 10,002 units.

BMW Motorrad had it's best year in the US in 2003 with 15,299 but dropped in 2004 to 13,316 (its second best year). I couldn't find any numbers for 2005. Anyone have the numbers for '05?

Michael Cohen

[DarrylRi]

Hmmm. So, it would seem that BMW can spend like a drunken sailor on promotions and thereby boost their numbers, or they can cut spending and lose sales, even as they're boosting the number of bikes available. The US is a growing market (as I understand from an MCN article a couple months ago), so the fact that BMW's sales are falling off here is even worse news -- they're losing sales (20% over the last 3 years!) and they're losing market share.

One wonders what percentage of their sales each year go to people who have already owned a BMW. If it's significant, I don't understand how they can be so standoffish to the club, which would represent a very targeted audience for them that would be easy to reach.

But, hey, I'm an engineer, not a marketing wizard.

[Visian]

Hmmm. So, it would seem that BMW can spend like a drunken sailor on promotions and thereby boost their numbers, or they can cut spending and lose sales, even as they're boosting the number of bikes available. The US is a growing market (as I understand from an MCN article a couple months ago), so the fact that BMW's sales are falling off here is even worse news -- they're losing sales (20% over the last 3 years!) and they're losing market share.

One wonders what percentage of their sales each year go to people who have already owned a BMW. If it's significant, I don't understand how they can be so standoffish to the club, which would represent a very targeted audience for them that would be easy to reach.

But, hey, I'm an engineer, not a marketing wizard.


Darryl - I think you have the equation correct. After watching BMW promotions for a number of years, it is quite evident that BMW Motorrad (NA) has severely cut their budgets in recent times. The event that was held in Lake Tahoe was also scheduled for the Biltmore, remember? There are other indications, not the least of which is cutting the ON from their print media placement plans. (however, they show their support in a number of other effective ways... like at our rally) I've heard that Piniero really dropped the hammer when he was named top dog.

However, it appears that spending is heading back up, there have been ads in lifestyle publications, a new xplor web site, and a continued presence at CycleWorld shows...

(i think they're taking it out of their dealer's hides... squeezing margins, etc...)

Ian

ps => congratulations on your ambassadorshipness! :)

[CourtFisher]

Yes, Italy has passed the US in sales last year. I saw this press release today, "A year of records for BMW Motorrad." (http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU0701/S00107.htm) According to the release BMW Motorrad topped 100,000 units sold for the first time in 2006. But this increase came from Western Europe with top sales by country as follows: Germany with 23,617 units, Italy 13,651 units, US 12,825 units and Spain 10,002 units.

BMW Motorrad had it's best year in the US in 2003 with 15,299 but dropped in 2004 to 13,316 (its second best year). I couldn't find any numbers for 2005. Anyone have the numbers for '05?

Michael Cohen

2005 = 12,803 (according to BMW's own year-end press release one year ago)

Court Fisher

[DarrylRi]

2005 = 12,803 (according to BMW's own year-end press release one year ago)

Court Fisher
So, actually, they dropped 20% in 2 years, and now they're just treading water.

Darryl - I think you have the equation correct. After watching BMW promotions for a number of years, it is quite evident that BMW Motorrad (NA) has severely cut their budgets in recent times. The event that was held in Lake Tahoe was also scheduled for the Biltmore, remember?
And in any case, not publicized well.

There are other indications, not the least of which is cutting the ON from their print media placement plans. (however, they show their support in a number of other effective ways... like at our rally) I've heard that Piniero really dropped the hammer when he was named top dog.

However, it appears that spending is heading back up, there have been ads in lifestyle publications, a new xplor web site, and a continued presence at CycleWorld shows...

As I'm planning on buying a bike in a couple months, I'd sure like to see some of those 0.9% financing and 3 free payments plans that were available the last time I bought a bike. ;-)

(i think they're taking it out of their dealer's hides... squeezing margins, etc...)Didn't seem like there was a lot left to take. I'm amazed at the margins I hear they get, even if there are some kickbacks for volume and advertising support.

ps => congratulations on your ambassadorshipness! :)Thanks!

[Colt03]

Wasn't 2003 the year that they closed out the C1. I seem to remember that they shipped a bunch of c1's at year end.

Lets hope their marketshare improves, they at least have a ton of new bikes. I am surprised that they are discontinuing the F 650 since it was like the third best selling bike in the line up !

[Motor31]

It would be interesting to cross correlate the closing of shops and the reduction of sales in the US market.

[Mika]

The change in shops may correlate to drop in sales to some degree. I suspect that there is a stronger correlation with how new models rolled out and the public waiting to buy. On many boards people claimed to be waiting until such and such model came to their dealer.

[knary]

It would be interesting to cross correlate the closing of shops and the reduction of sales in the US market.

Didn't BMWNA offer some silly good financing for a few years up until a couple years ago?

[osbornk]

Didn't BMWNA offer some silly good financing for a few years up until a couple years ago?

The owner of an 03 I just bought said he had 1% financing. He dragged out the payments as long as he could so he just paid it off to give me the title (got it today).

[CourtFisher]

Didn't BMWNA offer some silly good financing for a few years up until a couple years ago?

Yes...during the same year BMW NA achieved the record-breaking 15,000 unit sales. But that high sales year was at the expense of revenue/ profit--precisely because of the pricing/ finance subsidies. (I don't know this from actually seeing NA books, but from staff comments.) In other words, unit sales & market share are not the only measures of success; total revenue/ profit sent home to AG is equally or more important. Everything else being equal (it never is), NA would rather sell 12,000 bikes at profit than 15,000 at a loss. I have no idea what the actual 'break-even' or profit threshold is on an annualized total sales basis; but that's the goal NA management has to compute, and attempt to achieve.

Court

[knary]

Yes...during the same year BMW NA achieved the record-breaking 15,000 unit sales. But that high sales year was at the expense of revenue/ profit--precisely because of the pricing/ finance subsidies. (I don't know this from actually seeing NA books, but from staff comments.) In other words, unit sales & market share are not the only measures of success; total revenue/ profit sent home to AG is equally or more important. Everything else being equal (it never is), NA would rather sell 12,000 bikes at profit than 15,000 at a loss. I have no idea what the actual 'break-even' or profit threshold is on an annualized total sales basis; but that's the goal NA management has to compute, and attempt to achieve.

Court

That fits with what I've been told by dealership and NA people. When Italy has more sales than the U.S., it's pretty clear that while North America is an important market, it isn't as important as we would like to believe. We tend to think every bike and every technology designed by BMW is done so with us as the primary if not the sole audience.

[GregFeeler]

That fits with what I've been told by dealership and NA people. When Italy has more sales than the U.S., it's pretty clear that while North America is an important market, it isn't as important as we would like to believe. We tend to think every bike and every technology designed by BMW is done so with us as the primary if not the sole audience.

I have always believed the Germans at BMW AG don't understand how to sell bikes into the U.S. market. They don't understand why we have two national owner's groups, why we want bikes to ride hundreds of miles in a day, and why we don't show the respect and appreciation to them as the "father" figure they see in so many European markets. I would expect it would be much easier for them to understand a market like Italy where thousands of Germans spend part of their 30-day+ annual vacations, than the U.S. that few of them ever visit.

[knary]

I have always believed the Germans at BMW AG don't understand how to sell bikes into the U.S. market. They don't understand why we have two national owner's groups, why we want bikes to ride hundreds of miles in a day, and why we don't show the respect and appreciation to them as the "father" figure they see in so many European markets. I would expect it would be much easier for them to understand a market like Italy where thousands of Germans spend part of their 30-day+ annual vacations, than the U.S. that few of them ever visit.

:dunno

It seems very reasonable to expect that they have a much easier time selling bikes in a country next door where most people buy bikes to ride to get every day places, not to use for the occasional trip to a cafe or cross country. "We" don't want bikes to ride hundreds of miles in a day. I can't quite figure out what it is "we" want bikes for, but very few of us seem to want a bike for the real long haul.

My humble mumbles

[GregFeeler]

:dunno

It seems very reasonable to expect that they have a much easier time selling bikes in a country next door where most people buy bikes to ride to get every day places, not to use for the occasional trip to a cafe or cross country. "We" don't want bikes to ride hundreds of miles in a day. I can't quite figure out what it is "we" want bikes for, but very few of us seem to want a bike for the real long haul.

My humble mumbles

I don't know, Scott, it's my understanding there are more old BMW's in the U.S. than any other country. I see lots of BMW's at rallies with 100K on the clock or more. I know a lot of folks who consider 700~900 miles a good day. But, your point about recreational riding in the U.S. vs transportation in some other countries is well taken. Still, it would seem if you are looking for just transportation there are a zillion less expensive bikes for the purpose than BMWs. :dunno

[knary]

I don't know, Scott, it's my understanding there are more old BMW's in the U.S. than any other country. I see lots of BMW's at rallies with 100K on the clock or more. I know a lot of folks who consider 700~900 miles a good day. But, your point about recreational riding in the U.S. vs transportation in some other countries is well taken. Still, it would seem if you are looking for just transportation there are a zillion less expensive bikes for the purpose than BMWs. :dunno

-> In the U.S..
Go to many other markets, and a BMW is in the same ballpark as the supposedly cheap Japanese bikes.

[wezul]

But do you see the old Kaw's, Yam's in the same percentage as older BMW's? I see some older Honda's. I don't know if that speaks to the owner's affection for their bikes or the longevity of the original product.

I guess my concern, as new as I am to the BMW market, is the continuing decline of dealers. This is an issue that has been brought to my attention only after joining the MOA. I don't wrench, so I will rely on my dealer for service, hopefully they will be there in future.

New unit sales is something to be gauged, I guess. But IMHO what matters is how long these units last and the cohesiveness of community amongst these owners and dealers.

[knary]

But do you see the old Kaw's, Yam's in the same percentage as older BMW's? I see some older Honda's. I don't know if that speaks to the owner's affection for their bikes or the longevity of the original product.

I guess my concern, as new as I am to the BMW market, is the continuing decline of dealers. This is an issue that has been brought to my attention only after joining the MOA. I don't wrench, so I will rely on my dealer for service, hopefully they will be there in future.

New unit sales is something to be gauged, I guess. But IMHO what matters is how long these units last and the cohesiveness of community amongst these owners and dealers.

It's been said before, but the current number of dealers isn't outside of historic numbers. It is, however, currently thin in certain regions, noticeably the midwest where the MOA has a large member base. BMWNA is, last we heard, actively trying to recruit dealers in these and other underserved areas.