President visits troops

[riderR1150GSAdv]

I can only say that I was totally thrilled that the President visited our troops in Bagdad!:D :D :D
Way to go Mr. President!!!:clap :clap :clap

[kbasa]

I'm not a big fan of W these days, but that was an awfully nice thing to do.

[Cliffy777]

i especially liked the way it was done without the media fanfare one would expect. then we could have gotten barraged with an analysis of why he went and then analysis of how he did and how the French perceived the visit, etc. etc. etc.
i am a Reluctant Republican at this point. (teetering close to becoming a Very Reluctant Republican).

[chasman]

KBasa and Cliffy777, does this mean you're not wearing the "Big R" letter sweaters? Hummmmm?

The CHASMAN
Backing the Troops all the time...non-political most of the time. 8>)

p.s. Hope all had a Happy Thanksgiving!

[kbasa]

Originally posted by chasman
KBasa and Cliffy777, does this mean you're not wearing the "Big R" letter sweaters? Hummmmm?


Not these days.

But dinner was a good thing for W to do. Those folks in Iraq and their families are paying the true price of his decisions and I respect their committment to honoring their obligations.

But I still wish none of them were over there.

:)

[MarkF]

This guy has done lots of stuff others would have been afraid to do. You think flying in and out of Bagdad was an easy decision? The guy has a huge price on his head and he went into the dragons lair. Just like with the aircraft carrier landing he shows he's got the balls to do things previously considered unthinkable.

Even if you think the guy's an idiot or on the wrong path you have to admit he does what he thinks is right, stays the course and doesn't run the white house on opinion polls. That's what I call leadership!

MarkF

P.S. If you haven't noticed the market is coming back, too.

[kbasa]

Originally posted by MarkF
P.S. If you haven't noticed the market is coming back, too.

But the jobs are all going to India.

[BradfordBenn]

Originally posted by MarkF
Even if you think the guy's an idiot or on the wrong path you have to admit he does what he thinks is right, stays the course and doesn't run the white house on opinion polls. That's what I call leadership!

I 100% support the troops as people, I do not support the reason that they are over there. Without getting into all of the reasons, my opinion is that the United States should not be over there.

However I think that the White House, and Congress should run on opinion polls. These people are my employees. "Goverment for the people, by the people, and of the people" The idea is that the government should react and represent the concerns of its consituents.

Something that really struck me when a friend of mine had to evacuate his house during the CA fires. There was no funding for preventative forest management, however there was funding for going half way around the world....

Whoops soapbox away.

[knary]

Originally posted by BradfordBenn
Something that really struck me when a friend of mine had to evacuate his house during the CA fires. There was no funding for preventative forest management, however there was funding for going half way around the world....

Whoops soapbox away.

Preachin' to the choir.

I thought it was *great* that GW visited the troops. It's about time he did something I agreed with. :D

But you might not want to wander too far down the "preventative forest management" path. It's a twisted sticky issue with no clear answer (outside of "Note to self: move to someplace where it rains").

[BradfordBenn]

Originally posted by knary
But you might not want to wander too far down the "preventative forest management" path. It's a twisted sticky issue with no clear answer (outside of "Note to self: move to someplace where it rains").

Okay, but it was the first symptomatic example I could think of. Pick your favorite cause...

[knary]

Originally posted by BradfordBenn
Okay, but it was the first symptomatic example I could think of. Pick your favorite cause...
:)

Just bustin' your balls. (said in perfect Tony Saprano imitation).

[Cliffy777]

RE: Are you no longer wearing the "R" letter sweater?

Nope, mine has been carefully placed in cold storage with my mink.
I am disillusioned with politics. The number one agenda for me next election cycle will be to get candidates to address the "retirement" system available for legislators on both the state and federal level.
Federal Congresspeople pay nothing into and yet reap a retirement (pension) plan that is to die for. They will collect their salaries for life. They pay nothing into Social Security because they don't use it - no, the taxpayers will pay their bloated salaries.
Don't even get me started on Michigan. A couple of years ago the Republican controlled legislature got themselves a 36-39% pay raise. They are now the third highest paid in the country behind NY and CA. (You can't tell me the cost of living in Michigan is the 3rd in the nation.)
Meanwhile the donkeys and the elephants get us all fired up with their bull**** rhetoric about "the other guys" and we all miss the fact that they (Reps and Dems alike) are skimming thousands and thousands and thousands from taxpayers. Starting salary for Michigan is something like 79k with a 12k annual expense budget. It ain't like they have to pay their own phone bills and fix the copier when it breaks either.
I am convinced they get us so worked up over party crappola so we don't watch their laughing asses haul our tax bucks to the bank.
Whew - sorry for the rant boys and girls!
Did I mention I LOVE my motorcycle and riding in general??

[kbasa]

http://kbasa.smugmug.com/photos/1443770-M.jpg

[YB in IN]

mmmmm I like pie.

[MarkF]

Originally posted by BradfordBenn
However I think that the White House, and Congress should run on opinion polls. These people are my employees. "Goverment for the people, by the people, and of the people" The idea is that the government should react and represent the concerns of its consituents.

That's a Democracy this is a Representative form of government. You select the people you wish to run the show for the next 2, 3, 4 or 6 years and then vote them out if they don't do what you want. Otherwise, you could do a gallop pole every morning and change the course 365 times a year. Not a very efficient way to move in any direction.

MarkF

[kbasa]

Originally posted by YB in IN
mmmmm I like pie.

For something we can all agree on. (http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29613)

[YB in IN]

What kind of Bourbon did you use in your pie? I've seen some interesting stuff starting to hit the market in Bloomington, but it's really raelly pricey. All kinds of like estate bourbons and stuf like that.

[kbasa]

Maker's Mark.

Tasty, widely available and reasonably priced. We had some Basil Hayden after dinner. It's a bit more expensive and extraordinarily tasty.

http://kbasa.smugmug.com/photos/434938-M-1.jpg

And now, back to your regularly scheduled political discussion. Sorry to interrupt. Carry on.

[BradfordBenn]

KBasa's for pie. Followed by a pie fight. MMMMMMMM

[knary]

Originally posted by BradfordBenn
KBasa's for pie. Followed by a pie fight. MMMMMMMM

If we are to pursue this, we must strive to reach an arms agreement. We must ban the use of all pecan pies in a pie fight (remember those kids that would put some gravel in their snowballs?). Good and just pie makers will focus on more conventional pies - the pumpkin, the apple, and the banana cream.

With the reasonable and civilized banning of pecan pies comes a responsibility of policing those who have agreed to not bake pecan pies. Anyone suspected of even liking pecan pies will be subject sanctions and, if that doesn't curb your love of the nut, possible military action. We hold the right to use pecan pies against the transgressor(s) in such an action. (which the good and just pie makers might have only developed to ward off such an incident)

Make pies not war.

And so began the chilling pie arms race of '04.

[BradfordBenn]

Originally posted by knary
Good and just pie makers will focus on more conventional pies - the pumpkin, the apple, and the banana cream.

With the reasonable and civilized banning of pecan pies comes a responsibility of policing those who have agreed to not bake pecan pies.

I agree completely with the comments and constraints, put forward, except for what to do with pies and other food items that are deemed weapons in inherent injury. These items must be disposed of in a safe and civil manner.

There are two options as I see it:

1) The agressor eat the banned weapons
2) The pie and oher dangerous items are donated to the local food charity of the argressor's choice.

Make Pie not War. Share the spoils of Pie.

Peace to all

[Rob Nye]

Originally posted by KBasa
But the jobs are all going to India.

didja hear about Dell?

They got so many complaints about their customer support (call center is in India) that corporate customers (more than 35% of their business) are now calling tech support in the US.

Apparently one of the big complaints was that the tech support folks were following a "script" that was not quite right and a bit frustrating.

Great looking pies there Dave. Do you put the dough in the fridge for a bit before you roll it out? I see you use one of them roller cover thingies, I never like 'em and just use lots of flour to keep things from sticking.

I smell a BAKE OFF! :bliss

Best,

Rob Nye

[BMWRider]

Originally posted by KBasa
http://kbasa.smugmug.com/photos/1443770-M.jpg

Pies good.
Beer good.
Pies and beer better.

[oldcarkook]

You guys are going http://204.193.156.25/forum/smiles/offtopic.gif with the humble pie.

I for one think it takes a set of giant cahoongies to fly into Baghdad airport a week after we've had three helicopters and one DHL jet hit by SA7 fire. Give credit where credit is due.

Senator Clinton http://204.193.156.25/forum/smiles/blah.gif on the other hand seems to now be saying (while visiting troops in Afghanistan at Thanksgiving) that we are moving too quickly to turn over power to Iraqi people, after she complained that we were not turning it over quickly enough two months ago. http://204.193.156.25/forum/smiles/next/eee.gif :dunno

[knary]

Originally posted by oldcarkook
You guys are going http://204.193.156.25/forum/smiles/offtopic.gif with the humble pie.

I for one think it takes a set of giant cahoongies to fly into Baghdad airport a week after we've had three helicopters and one DHL jet hit by SA7 fire. Give credit where credit is due.

Senator Clinton http://204.193.156.25/forum/smiles/blah.gif on the other hand seems to now be saying (while visiting troops in Afghanistan at Thanksgiving) that we are moving too quickly to turn over power to Iraqi people, after she complained that we were not turning it over quickly enough two months ago. http://204.193.156.25/forum/smiles/next/eee.gif :dunno

Perhaps after going there she has gathered something that this administration hates to share - information (the real stuff, not the fake "Iraq is working with Al Qaeda" kind). Now that we've created a huge mess over there, this administration appears to be trying to figure out how we can extricate ourselves before we lose too many more men&women. George is watching his poll numbers and knows that he can't win if they can't put a happy face on this mess or, at the least, start putting it behind us.

GW going to Baghdad was a very nice gesture and a politically wise move. But outside of that, it doesn't mean a single damn thing.

[oldcarkook]

Originally posted by knary GW going to Baghdad was a very nice gesture and a politically wise move. But outside of that, it doesn't mean a single damn thing.

It might if you were the one getting shot at every day.

[knary]

Originally posted by oldcarkook
It might if you were the one getting shot at every day.

I was thinking more in terms of the war and the final outcome of our questionable actions in Iraq. Would it mean something to me if I was over there? hell yes. But will it help us find Saddam, find those conspicuously absent WMD or create a stable democracy in that torn country? nope.

[BradfordBenn]

Here is my take on it.

How much money did we just spend to send someone halfway around the world to spend two hours with troops?

Yes, he is in danger of getting shot as is everyone else in the war zone.

However I still think that there is better uses of that money here in the US. Think about it, there are people in danger of getting shot everyday here in the US and it does not make the news nor are they called brave.

Think about the people who live in "The Projects" of various cities where the violence has taken over. They are in danger of getting shot just going to school or work or shopping.

How about using the money we just spent to send someone to Iraq for a few hours to supplement the WIC program? Homeless Programs? Food Pantries? Money for schools?

I just think the money can be better used.

Just my $0.02 your opinion may vary and it is a great country cause we can disagree.

[kbasa]

Originally posted by BradfordBenn
I just think the money can be better used.

It's a sad commentary when we start laying off the people that educate our kids, but we have a spare 160 billion laying around to go mess with Saddam.

At least to me.

[MarkF]

I think it has been shown time and again that military activity has a very positive impact on the economy. This trickle down goes into the pockets of defense contractors and suppliers which in turn pay more local taxes which help the local economy. Those guys making OT will go out and buy big ticket items like cars or appliances or perhaps a new BMW. The guys that sell that stuff get bonuses for sales and they bring home more cash, too.

I agreed it is sad that not enough money is spent on teachers. police and fire but they weren't laid off to pay for a PFC in Iraq. They were laid off so a local politician didn't have to cut a different program or raise taxes in an election year.

MarkF

[R75_7]

My wife is a school teacher and many times we see friends being laid off ad the number of students per class increase. Those are your kids future paying the price. Possibly we could do both. Why does it always seem so obvious a solution when in reality all difficult problems have dificult solutions. But our hired hands these public servants(politicians) always go to the easy wrong. Which is cutting back on public service. Giving the rich breaks now that's a good idea beacause we were sticking it to them before soo if they could only catch a break then that might stimulate our economy. Okay so our economy according to the staticians is on the rise but according to those same guys unemployment is still down. Maybe if we gave raises to our politicians that would inspire them to give more back to their comunities? How about export more and import less? All of these countries that we are "saving" are not buying any other goods other than weapons. Japanese,German's,Saudi's,Kuwaiti's,Philipino's,et c. are not driving primarily American cars or using any other American products. But those fighter jets we sold. Or all of the military equipment we left in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. I was in Gulf War 1 and I was in Somalia for a while and I know one thing for sure don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see when it comes to the Government. I just wish there was something that would Unite the American citizens hre at home as strongly as those soldiers are out there on the battlefield, possibly fighting with all there might for there brother in arms in a war they may not beieve in.
That's my .22 cents.
Thanks,
Michael

[Rhino]

Being new to the board and also a newer BMW owner, I feel the need to place my .02 in the mix and yes, I'm pro military.

First - knary

GW going to Baghdad was a very nice gesture and a politically wise move. But outside of that, it doesn't mean a single damn thing.

---- Having spent Oct 02 - May 03 "over there", I can tell you that it does mean a lot to the people he visited. I have spent 22 yrs in the Marine Corps and am getting ready to retire next year. I have never been disillusioned about how politics have an effect on my chosen profession. Trust me, other than Bob Hope; the Commander in Chief is the next best thing. He probably did have an underlying agenda but the fact is he went and that is what counts. To a first termer meeting the President can be a highlight in their career.

Next - oldcarkook

It might if you were the one getting shot at every day.

---- Some people will never know how the insignificant things in life seem to matter at the strangest times.

Lastly - 1977 R75/7

I was in Gulf War 1 and I was in Somalia for a while and I know one thing for sure don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see when it comes to the Government. I just wish there was something that would Unite the American citizens here at home as strongly as those soldiers are out there on the battlefield, possibly fighting with all there might for there brother in arms in a war they may not believe in.

---- When I returned from Beirut people didn't even know where it was on a map. When I came home from Somalia I questioned more about the government and its' policies than I care to remember. The plain fact is that every American doesn't need to hear or see everything. Remember how many news crews were on the beach in Somalia? I couldn't see my hand with all the lights yet alone the objective. But that was the beginning of the average American being “in the know”. For what? So they can say they are up on things "over there"? In reading the second part of your quote I can only hope to find that mentality in the civilian community.


Okay, enough said. Don't mean to PO anybody just a little venting.

Thanks and thank a Veteran no matter how you feel about policy.

Doug

[kbasa]

Originally posted by Rhino6207
Thanks and thank a Veteran no matter how you feel about policy.

Roger that.

[BradfordBenn]

Just not always the policy.

[knary]

Originally posted by BradfordBenn
Always support the people
Just not always the policy.

:thumb

[knary]

Originally posted by Rhino6207
Being new to the board and also a newer BMW owner, I feel the need to place my .02 in the mix and yes, I'm pro military.

First - knary



---- Having spent Oct 02 - May 03 "over there", I can tell you that it does mean a lot to the people he visited. I have spent 22 yrs in the Marine Corps and am getting ready to retire next year. I have never been disillusioned about how politics have an effect on my chosen profession. Trust me, other than Bob Hope; the Commander in Chief is the next best thing. He probably did have an underlying agenda but the fact is he went and that is what counts. To a first termer meeting the President can be a highlight in their career.


what I said earlier still covers it...

"I was thinking more in terms of the war and the final outcome of our questionable actions in Iraq. Would it mean something to me if I was over there? hell yes. But will it help us find Saddam, find those conspicuously absent WMD or create a stable democracy in that torn country? nope."


thank a Veteran no matter how you feel about policy.

Doug

Brad said it succinctly.

[R75_7]

I apologize for subjecting you to my frustration and vening. My best friend and Army buddy jst recently notified me that he will be deployed on 16 Dec 03. It seems that this War is becoming too political. And I mean that in the sense that it's lost it's direction. It seems to me that not one mission was accompished. No Osama Bin Laden. I'm glad that we were able to oust him and his band of womanizing thugs, but, Bush said getting him was mission 1. I haven't even heard about Afganistan in months, who knows how they are doing now? Next, Get those weapons of mass destruction. Maybe Waldo knows where they are butour Intel is lost or throwing up a smoke. And what aboutthe man who threatened G.W.'s papa? He's also MIA. Devil Dog, I believe you've been there, so tell me what'sour mission? To stop terrorism when ever and where ever forever? Or maybe until re-election time. Seems like all of those reasons seem less important now that we are leaving around July. One more thing; I love Bush risked his behind to be there for those soldiers. He is supposed to do that. It's his job. To support the troops. Rally them. Lead from the front. And they deserve that, they earned it. When I was in Gulf 1 Shwartzkopf came to speak to the troops, he was our idol, we called him The King. I'm glad that we all can share in this format. I'm learning more and more everyday. Marine, thank you for your service. Maybe after you retire I'll see you on the road.
Thanks,
Michael

[Rhino]

Michael,
Trust me no apology needed. I sit here everyday and wonder what the task is at hand on both fronts. I work with the Seabees now and get to see and hear first hand about the reconstruction efforts underway. That helps, but when I think of the actual WMD, Saddam and OBL mission, I agree we have lost our focus. But you have to wonder, are we naive enough to think we can change the way the Muslim world thinks in general? Heck no. Are we naive enough to think it is just the President’s policy that is causing all of this? I hope not. He is a guy who gets paid to make some huge decisions and you are right, the info is out there but how much of it is believable?

We haven’t heard about Afghanistan because it is not a juicy story, how many average citizens out there are even paying attention to it? Most people just click on the news source and believe it is gospel and that gospel only speaks about Iraq.

I guess that is what I was trying to get at earlier. It is easy to bash the system from the comforts of home armed with a sound mind and only the info that flows in from the media.

Tell your buddy to keep his head down and stay safe.



knary -

But will it help us find Saddam, find those conspicuously absent WMD or create a stable democracy in that torn country? nope."

Creating any form of government other than what was in place will be a hard row to hoe. It will be a long time before you could call anything stable in Iraq. I can tell you that after explaining the concept of democracy to a few of the locals, I wouldn’t trade the looks on their faces for much of anything. Do you really think Saddam is missing? As for the WMD, I can neither confirm nor deny.

Thanks to all for putting up with my frustration!!

Doug

[knary]

Originally posted by Rhino6207

knary -



Creating any form of government other than what was in place will be a hard row to hoe. It will be a long time before you could call anything stable in Iraq. I can tell you that after explaining the concept of democracy to a few of the locals, I wouldn’t trade the looks on their faces for much of anything. Do you really think Saddam is missing? As for the WMD, I can neither confirm nor deny.

Thanks to all for putting up with my frustration!!

Doug

Saddam is missing. He may well be buried in rubble somewhere, but that's still 'missing'. Not finding him will, IMHO, make it harder for the people of Iraq to completely "buy into" any attempts to build a democracy. The official policy of the U.S. and Britain is that he is still alive until proof otherwise comes to light.

WMD's still haven't been found. Iraq was still not involved in 9/11.

I support the troops but I don't support this administration's policies.

[Rhino]

Knary -
Saddam is missing. He may well be buried in rubble somewhere, but that's still 'missing'. Not finding him will, IMHO, make it harder for the people of Iraq to completely "buy into" any attempts to build a democracy. The official policy of the U.S. and Britain is that he is still alive until proof otherwise comes to light.


I think Saddam is still alive and well in Iraq. It is a big country and there are a lot of places to hide. He does need to be found and dealt with so the Iraqi people can move forward. Our administration has set a policy that is easier to justify with the masses rather than just going out full force and killing Saddam. I don’t agree with it either.
I think Iraq was involved in 9/11. The Iraqis will never “buy into” our view of democracy, it is going to take time and they will have to sort it out. I can tell you that the majority over there is eager to give it a try.

I think we can agree to disagree. On the other hand, I truly appreciate your support.
Doug

[MarkF]

Originally posted by 1977 R75/7
I haven't even heard about Afganistan in months, who knows how they are doing now? Next, Get those weapons of mass destruction.


First, the reason we haven't heard much is because the job is getting done. We hear about overseas deployments only when our boys are getting killed. Therefore, I prefer to hear less.

Second, If we search the whole country and find none it's just as successful as if we had to destroy stockpiles of them. They are not available to Iraqis.

Ever hear of smugglers who dump booze, drugs, etc when being chased by the government? The vessels, boats or vehicles are clean when they give up. Does that mean the stuff wasn't there to begin with?

MarkF

[knary]

Originally posted by Rhino6207
Knary -



I think Saddam is still alive and well in Iraq. It is a big country and there are a lot of places to hide. He does need to be found and dealt with so the Iraqi people can move forward. Our administration has set a policy that is easier to justify with the masses rather than just going out full force and killing Saddam. I don’t agree with it either.


If we behave as Saddam did, we drag ourselves down.


I think Iraq was involved in 9/11.
There is NO substantiated evidence showing they were involved and there never has been. After linking 9/11 and Iraq again and again (example: Before the war Cheney like to say things like: "If we're successful in Iraq, then we will have struck a major blow right at the heart of the base, if you will, the geographic base of terrorists who had us under assault for many years, but most especially on 9/11."_), even this administration finally came clean and said that there was no connection between Iraq and 9/11.

The Iraqis will never “buy into” our view of democracy, it is going to take time and they will have to sort it out. I can tell you that the majority over there is eager to give it a try.

I hope so.

I think we can agree to disagree. On the other hand, I truly appreciate your support.
Doug
:thumb

It's this willingness to talk that makes this place as rich as it is.

[magwa]

....is all I can comment upon.

I am not a macro-economist. But I play one on TV.

Simply stated, there is no end to the supply of cash that we (The USA) need to fund any project we determine has merit.

Cash In:

The Treasury prints money. That is done by "floating" bonds, or debt, with an interest rate that meets the demands of the investors (largely off-shore).

The investors buy. Cash flows in from the sale of bonds, right next to the river of cash that flows in from taxes.

Cash Out:

The funds flow out to meet the comittments that have been approved by the first Congress, and then the Administration.

So....we can't look directly to the lack of funding for, say, schools against the cost making of war.

End of story???? Not really. It is simple on it's face, but the devil is in the details.

Each of the above statements is frought with politics, imbalance and a strong capacity for loading up on mis-information. Add your own slant. FWIW, I favor spending money I don't have in my own back yard. But that's just me.

Also FWIW, I also have a personal policy of not killing anyone unless they peresent my family with a clear and present danger. But that's just me, too. Although, I believe someone of much higher authority made a statement against killing that has been, in His service, widely interpreted through the ages .

Small Detail(s):

Q. How, and who, pays for the debt load made larger by spending gluts and mounting interest payments? That is, who pays the principal payments and the ever-increasing interest due on bonds?

A. It can only come from the taxes from a (supposedly) ever growing tax base, and inflation. BTW, inflation does not work on the interest rate side of the expense ledger.

A#2. Print more dough.

There's too much to say about this crap. Benefit of use of govt. funds in the national economy (trickle-down benefits), how we define the priorities in the use of dollars, demographics of the tax base (age/Social Security, etc.), increase in bond rates needed to attract petro-dollars and funds from other off shore sources (read: Yen, British Pounds), Pork Barrel mentality of welfare (corporate and social).....

The idea that one is or is not a patriot is subjective. But you have to follow the money to get at the whole deal.

Or.....Let's go for a ride. Or eat some pie.

[Rhino]

Wahoo,
Religion, politics and money. I would like a slice please :)

[kbasa]

:(

http://kbasa.smugmug.com/photos/1456157-M-1.jpg

[Rhino]

Boy, this sure is a tough clique to break into.

[Rob Nye]

Originally posted by Rhino6207
Boy, this sure is a tough clique to break into.

Not really, Dave just scarfed all the pie. :yum I didn't even get a piece and I am Team K's evil red-headed step-child!

Best,

Rob Nye

[kbasa]

Sorry man. There's the quick and the hungry.

*tosses Rhino a beer*

[lorazepam]

I will have a brew as well kind sir, Blue Moon or Newcastle will work for me :beer

[kbasa]

One Newkie Brown, coming up.

*tosses lorezapam a beer*

:1drink

[jgr451]

Hello Rhino,welcome to the forum.
I cant believe K ate all the pie,weren't there two???
I'll have a beer too,thanks K.Rhino,you ready for another one?

Rhino you have my respect.Sounds like you are a career soldier.Who is still alive and has not lost his mind.
GOOD!!!

Welcome.

PS I am Canadian.We are in Afghanistan.We were in Somalia.Our elite strike force unit was disbanded by the politicians because of military and political mistakes in Somalia.Most of us can only imagine how crazy and dangerous that place must have been.

So ,me too :hope to meet you on the road.Spokane in July?

[Rhino]

KBasa - a Trappist ale please (Chimay?) please. I need to beg the best, as I will soon be retired...

JGR451 - Thanks for the welcome and kind words. Somalia left a lot of folks with a bad taste. I actually spent a few days with the CAR, I was impressed with the people I worked with. It is a shame how the actions of some cause all to suffer the consequences. Hope to be there!


Doug

[kbasa]

Dopple or Tripple?

:D

[basketcase]

Pie's gone ...

As late as I am getting in on this, I suspect that all I'll get to do is hear the early arrivals belch.

:D

[R75_7]

Rhino,
I'll pass you a Trapiste. I'll be in Belgium over the holidays. I'm also looking forward to having a Trippel and hopefully some frits with mayo. I also wanted to say that I had the pleasure of serving with some of your dogs in Somalia. I was the SOG at the ASP and I had six Marine Snipers attached to my squad for about a month. They were great we had a lot of fun. No matter what was going on they always carried out their duty with a professionalism. Although we did have the occasion to make our own fun while not on guard. Have you ever had Brand beer from theNetherlands. When I was there they served it to us in little water glasses. We were like"wheres the rest of our beer?". The barkeep just laughed and said"small glasses big alcohol". We didn't believe him so we ordered 2 more each. And that was it, goodnight. I just remember the guy laughing at us while we stumbled to our rooms. And the stuff was crystal clear amber and tasted very smooth and refreshing. I can't wait to get back. I haven't been in about 10 years. I'm taking my wife for her first time this Christmas for 20 days. I'm also a little excited to see what Europe(especially Germany) has made of itself.
Thanks again,
Michael

[Rob Nye]

Originally posted by 1977 R75/7

<snip
Have you ever had Brand beer from theNetherlands. When I was there they served it to us in little water glasses. We were like"wheres the rest of our beer?". The barkeep just laughed and said"small glasses big alcohol". We didn't believe him so we ordered 2 more each. And that was it, goodnight. I just remember the guy laughing at us while we stumbled to our rooms. And the stuff was crystal clear amber and tasted very smooth and refreshing. I can't wait to get back.Michael

Hey Michael,

When I lived near Detroit my roommate used to buy Brand Beer, it came in white bottles. I have been looking for it in the U.S. ever since but can't seem to find it. Good stuff indeed.

If anyone has seen this in the U.S. or knows where I can get some I would be very grateful.

Best,

Rob Nye

[Rhino]

Michael,
I spent some time in the "Thunderdome". Ahh, memories...

I have not tried that beer. The last time I was in Europe was 92. In my early days I used to travel frequently throughout Europe. You will be VERY surprised how things have changed. Germany is Germany; even combined all is in ordnung. Enjoy the Holidays and remember it still is a damp cold over there !

I didn't need the pie anyway....

Doug

[oldcarkook]

A few comments have been made about our lack of accomplishing stated objectives and I'd like to throw my two cents in:

First of all about intelligence gathering...

We have this wonderful forum where we share information and help each other work through the problems of our beloved Beemers. There is no Taliban or Ba'ath forum where we can be told where bin Laden or Hussein are hiding. In fact, quite the opposite, life and culture there is very primitive and so are intelligence gathering techniques. Be patient about intelligence gathering. It will only come in dribs and drabs at best and over a long period of time.

On 9/11 issues...

9/11 was very personal for me. I lost a friend on 9/11. Start there.

GW said he was going to dismantle the Taliban and get Bin Laden and Al Queda on the run and eventually run him down. At no time did he (*we) state that we were going to march in, arrest the thugs, and bring them to justice. We have accomplished our initial objectives of dismantling the Taliban, getting al queda on the run, and foiling COUNTLESS terror plots in the US.

I am not happy with detainees in Gitmo. Not at all. I have no doubt that they are bad people who should be locked up or disposed of, but my concern is that we have a system of justice and we are not using it. Whether military tribunal, federal court trial, or lynch mob, get those detainees processed and hand out their sentence. Holding them in a gray area of law is not good and sets a dangerous precedent for us. They are political prisoners until they are tried at which point they are convicted criminals. Try them one way or another and do it immediately!

On bin Laden. I think he, like Saddam, is alive and well and hunkered down somewhere. I have felt that he's been in Iran since the beginning, but some information would suggest otherwise. I want his head on a spear paraded through Times Square, and then I want him and all like him to be buried with pigs for the whole world to see.

I have a little different opinion of Middle East mindset and culture due to my own experiences. My wife was born in Egypt and I have spent some time in the Middle East (as part of my work) and I believe that the mindset of most Middle Eastern countries is such that they respect ONLY what is intimidating and may hurt them. They do not have a culture or system that allows free world logic to be applied so forget the logical discussions. There is no regard for human life throughout most of the Middle East in my humble opinion. Words are useless, but actions speak louder than words in that region. This is precisely why the Taliban and Hussein were able to flourish for so long in that region.

On Iraq....

I think that GW screwed up royal when he played the WMD/Clear and present danger card. I trusted that the President of the United States, when he states that we can prevent WMD from falling into the hands of our enemies and terrorists if we act now, had "eyes on target" intelligence. I trusted that Tenent and his band had people who knew where they all were, but we just couldn't get at them. Obviously, we did not have the level of intelligence that we needed to play the clear and present danger card and that is most unfortunate. I suspect that the lack of WMDs will result in this being GW's only term in office, but we have a wonderful system here that lets us all decide who's running the show. This is an issue pertaining to BEFORE the show and we must keep it in perspective in this context. What I mean by that is that the decision to invade Iraq was made before we invaded. What happens after we invade should not determine whether we finish the job or not.

With regards to what has happened AFTER the decision...

The US military is the most powerful and best trained military in the world. No doubt. We accomplished our military objectives quickly, efficiently, and with honor. We took great pains to minimize collateral damage even though the enemy carefully and intentionally weaved themselves into the civilian population, and civilian locations using hospitals, churches, and schools as military hiding spots. When GW declared an end to major combat operations, it might have been better to say that the enemy is now so thoroughly scattered and disbursed throughout the civilians in such a way as to prevent further strategic combat actions without massive loss of innocent lives. We have shifted from fighting an enemy on the other side of the line to fighting an enemy who will be hidden amongst the population. No more enemies in uniforms to see clearly, but now an enemy that uses children and innocent people to carry out its guerrilla tactics. We are now in a mode of playing policemen in an area that is laced with crafty vicious people who do not care about killing three innocent civilians in an attempt to kill one US soldier. Very sticky stuff and the only way to finish this is to see it through.

Lastly, a post earlier mentions policy. Please do not punish the women and men of the United States military for your disdain for our President and his policies. Use the power that our constitution gives you and if you don't like what he's doing, impeach him or vote him out the next time around. Our military has enough people taking pot shots at them that they need only the unconditional support of the American people from every angle.

So do this: For Christmas, Hanukah, or whatever reason or holiday you celebrate or don't celebrate, please write an open letter to a soldier in the Middle East. Tell them that you are proud of them and thank them for their VOLUNTARY fighting that they are doing. Tell them where you live and what the weather is and that you value the ability to walk down the street freely. Tell them that you appreciate their work. Remember, unlike Viet Nam, EVERY SOLDIER IN IRAQ volunteered to join. They need your unconditional support.

Whether you agree with the policy or not, do not blame the messengers for delivering the messages.

[jgr451]

Old car kook you touched me when you talked about not condemning the military along with a flawed foreign policy,that is exactly the mistake made after Vietnam and the cost to Americans was far too high.
The military is actually YOU,your sons,daughters,brothers...who go where they go and do what they do because they believe they are doing it for you.
The Canadian politicians disgraced our elite strike unit,The Airborne, ín Somalia,by disbanding it,because the politicians sent a military unit composed of young warriors to do a job that would have been impossible for a company of Kissingers.
I am Canadian but I watched the US soldiers coming back from Vietnam via TWA and being spit on and reviled at the great airports.What were you people thinking then?Those men would have died for you.Do not repeat these mistakes.
Sorry if this is too political or emotional for this fun forum,but it does come up...

[manicmechanic]

Thank you, jgr. I remember all too well being "advised" when and where the wearing of uniforms was acceptable. There are a lot of other things I prefer not to remember, as I would like to forgive the poor unfortunates who took their anger out on the people trying to do their job by serving. Granted, I never made it over "there", but the reactions were the same. I also remember the first Memorial Day with Clinton at Arlington, and the Vets turned their backs on him. All he could say was, "Aww, you don't really mean that." Maybe GW isn't the best, but we can, and have, done worse. If the politicians that get us into these messes would only allow the military to do what they're trained to do, instead of doing as LBJ did, maybe we could get in and get out quicker.

Just my nickel's worth. Sorry for the outburst, just remembering some of those who didn't come back.